Just wanted to share I have made some for my customers and they love them. Folks are contacting me about these so there is still interest. Folks reading here don’t neccessarily post.
Doug Schroeder Method, Double ic
I think this topic deserves its own thread , where use double ic through y adapters , from source to preamp, Can’t connect it from Preamp to Amp...For me the result is huge, I can’t go back to single ic....
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Let's bring this back to the foreground. I'm not surprised that it is sitting quietly now; there are enough cautions that many will not try it. I suspect that only the most adventurous have done the Schroeder Method. I also suspect there are others who have tried and not reported back yet. Meanwhile, the results have gone from wonderful to astounding. I just put together a Schroeder Method XLR with Clarity Cables Organic ICs and I'm astonished at the result. I'm building better and better systems with it and there seems to be no limit in sight for improvement of the sound. |
I fell in line with the Schroeder Method and am reveling in the spectacular performance. The aural picture is so real I feel as though I've stepped into the performance. I can follow each single instrument and appreciate what it brings to the piece. I replaced uber expensive silver interconnects....and would not change back. |
My responses from manufacturers, designers, etc. in regards to the suitability of trying, and the efficaciousness of Schroeder Method has covered the full spectrum. Some laugh it off, while others discuss potential issues that they feel the Schroeder Method should be avoided. Yet others find it fascinating and say they will try. Some feel it's benign in terms of what equipment it could be used with, and the most recent tech with a background in electrical systems said it will always improve a system. He feels I stumbled on to one of the few absolute ways to improve signal transfer. That's not an official go ahead to try with class D amp! |
I have been looking to update this thread with recent activity. Steve from Audio Sensibility has been sending me Y cables, both RCA and XLR, for assessment and write up. That is underway. He has also been working on a Schroeder Method double IC with his own particular twist. Meanwhile, I have used the double IC on a very heavy hitter speaker system with outstanding, nay, spectacular success. I will say this; it was paired with the previously mentioned Benchmark AHB2 amplifier, and the result is glorious. Other amps tested to follow. The outcome of all this is so far beyond expectations. I'm still looking for input from another manufacturer to see how far I can take this. This is no minor improvement, this is an ultra-efficacious method. (For those just joining, please see the discussion on appropriate systems for use with Schroeder Method. Do not presume any and all rigs are appropriate. At this point there is in place a caution regarding class D amps. That may change in the future, but not at this point. This is a do at your own risk activity.) |
What strikes me the most about is not that these changes cover a wide range of attributes or characteristics of sound quality; I find that cables globally influence the system's sound. What amazes me is the degree to which these changes happen with the Schroeder Method. The effect is far beyond what I might have predicted. I thought there might be a deleterious effect, but instead there is a very strong improvement across the board. |
There is certainly something going on with the Schroeder double interconnect (DI) arrangement. I'm have two sets of DIY DI's which I've made up with low cost Mogami w2534 star quad microphone cable - terminated to single xlr connectors, i.e. no 'Y' adapters. The DI's are between my Benchmark DAC3L, HPA4 pre and bridged mono AHB2's I'm getting greater apparent dynamics/impact, better separation and dimensionality to instruments/voices - which seem to be presented in bolder relief with better timbral detail - and a more expansive feel to the soundstage but without loss of focus. There is also a non-fatiguing quality to the music that doesn't seem to impact detail. I'd still like to do further listening to see if there are any negative consequences to these changes. |
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Doug....there is no doubt about it now. The Schroeder cables are the very best I’ve heard in my system. I’ve tried many levels of Cardas, Kimber, Purist, Wireworld, Audioquest (interesting to me is that the ultra high level of Signature cables was not nearly as good as their top lesser grades), etc., etc. None have the openess, dynamics, depth, etc. as your cables do....and far less money. Bravo! Perhaps each system just has its preferences...I don’t know. It takes a couple of days to find the gold, but for those who are trying it, be patient and enjoy. It was so interesting to hear the journey. At first....rolled highs, no real, but tubby bass, no air. All the sound seemed to be coming from the left speaker grill cloth. I even checked the attachments to see if I wired it correctly. I really couldn’t hear as it was changing....just a realization that the soloist was now dead center...then came the openness..... The low bass was next. I have Vandersteen 5A speakers which was set up by Vandersteen himself who proclaimed my room was just not capable of those really low tones....yet...they are now evident....they are clean, pitch specific, and fully incorporated in the sonic picture. I can go on, but I simply encourage all to try these cables in your own system. |
Douglas, speaker outpus on tube amps are not exactly correct. It is generally known that factorys declare a ’middle’ impedance. The lower the impedance of the nominal is the bigger problem, so the transformers are counted with that in mind, typically the 4 ohm output is calculated for about 3.2 ohms and 8 ohms for 6-7 ohms. So, one level of flexibility is already included in any construction. 2) The operation of the speaker impedance above the declared on the amplifier increases the damping factor, decreasing the output power and distortion - until the moment of clipping. Working with lower impedance reduces the output power but also increases distortion. Having all that in mind, I prefer to stick to predictable solutions (right output for known impedance) But, thank you for your advice, I do believe that is important to have an open mind, more so in audio, because there are lots of things that laymans or even experts cant explain and yet they are audible |
alexatpos, unless there is a reason to take caution with operating a particular speaker on the other outputs, I make it a point just to see what the resultant sound is like to try speakers on all amp outputs, i.e. 4,8,16 ohm. The results can be surprising, and often I prefer one setting that is not aligned with the minimum impedance of the speaker. You will definitely have a different result with each of the outputs. One might be superior. In many instances speakers that were rated 8 Ohm sound much better to me as the 4 Ohm outputs are used. One simply has to try in order to determine which is holistically superior. My point was that it may help to isolate an influence why the double IC is not to your liking. Stringreen, if both of the Schroeder Method ICs are similar type, ie. XLR, you could swap the short one with the longer to see if there is an immediate degradation due to the length. Set up the rig and get used to the sound again at baseline. Then swap the two double ICs for comparison. Could be interesting. |
Douglas, the speakers I use, Franco Serblin's Lignea have minimum impedance of 7,9 ohm, so I have them conected on 8 ohm outputs. I do not think (correct me if I am wrong), that conecting it on either 4 or 16 ohm outputs would be helpful. Perhaps it would be interesting to know if all the people who do not hear the positive change have the similar sounding experience and on which kind of gear |
Even my wife says she doesn’t understand me.......My thinking is that the cable from the turntable being the oldest of the Schroeders has reached a higher level of performance because the new ones (from the CD player) are still opening up. At this time, the CD player is not what I think it can provide in sonics. With my older silver cables, the turntable sound was better in some ways than the CD player, and the CD player was better in other ways....all depending on the recording. Also, all sound is going via the long preamp to amp new cable. Of coarse, I’m open to any of your suggestions. ...just as an aside, I’ve played the Purist Audio and Ayre break-in discs but without any progress. |
alexatpos, thanks for providing the info on the specs. Those look like very fine components with class A tube power; I'm guessing very sweet sound. One thought that strikes me is what appears to be three outputs, 4,8, 16 Ohm. Are you by chance using the 16 Ohm output with the Schroeder Method cables? I'm wondering if that would introduce the effect you are hearing. Is your system appropriate to try the 4 and 8 Ohm outputs, i.e. speakers appropriate? It would be interesting to see if the output influences the result of the Schroeder Method. Please confer if needed prior to attempting. But, it sounds like you know what you are doing. Stringreen, by saying phono sounds WAY better than CD, are you suggesting that the CD got worse, or only that the phono is enhanced more greatly? It is hard to understand your comment the way it is worded. I'm asking because alexatpos is using a CD player and is not getting a good result currently. It may be correctable. |
Douglas, by all means,no problem. Here are photos with specs. The tubes are 6550 and ECC 83, all Tung Sol http://www.highendshop.gr/images/P/UnisonResearchp30.jpg P30K Technical characteristics
https://www.dagogo.com/hidiamond-d2-and-d7-interconnect-cable-review/ |
alexatpos, thank you for relating your experience in regard to Schroeder Method and your system. Every contribution to understanding it is helpful. I wonder if the output of the CD player is a factor in the outcome you experienced. There is a possibility that the capacitance of the doubled interconnects was too high. One thing that is very helpful in the overall assessment of the doubling of ICs is that it seemed obvious to you that the sound had changed. That in itself is important, because it reinforces the experience of others, that the sound changed noticeably. It would be helpful to me and the community if you would share the precise make and model of your CD player, Preamp and Amp so that the specifications could be found, and perhaps better understanding of what might be the issue can be discovered. I wonder if you are using a very low power amp and if that might be a factor in the result. I had discussed use of double ICs with Kevin Hayes of VAC and he said it would present no problem with his amplifiers. But, I hasten to add that the topology of amps, even tube amps, can vary dramatically, so this response certainly cannot be extended to all amplifiers. Again, if we can see the equipment used that would be very helpful to everyone. |
I have tried the double ic connection via AQ f shaped splitters, between cd and preamp. I hoped for positive outcome, but my somehow short and limited experience was that sound did not improve, I have noticed the change, but the sound I get would be best described as a kind of loudness effect. Perhaps its releted to the gear I use. (tube amp and preamp) I will not desmiss the idea completely, but for know I have no doubt that my current set up is better with regular connections. On the other hand, I am using the Franco Serblin Lignea monitor speakers with Yter speaker cables (same manufacturer,) and I ve read somewhere that doubling the speaker cables produced great results. Perhaps in the future I would be able to check that as well and report my findings. |
I am now Schroedrized......I got all the cables now, plugged them in and nothing blew up. My first worry was that I ordered too short of cable from my preamp to amp, but no, I measured right...whew... (about 5 1/2 meters) The sound is congested, little bass, highes lopped off, but after an hour things are better. I've been CD'ing an Elton John recording, and every song is better than the previous one. It is so interesting how the cables are changing as they break in. |
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maxima95, well, it's good that you ask rather than ignore the advice. My understanding is that the double IC can potentially cause instability in the operation of a class D amp, causing it to oscillate and potentially cause damage to it. That is why at this time it is not recommended for class D. Sorry that it is not recommended that you join the party at this time. :( If someone is hellbent on trying it, I adjure they must speak with their manufacturer first. This is a do at your own risk activity, and from the designers and theorists who are advising me the risk falls squarely more so with class D and with less robust specialty amps. I do not have all the answers to this and only with time and experimentation will much more be known about the parameters of the Schroeder Method. The caution in regard to class D amps in no way makes the Schroeder Method ineffectual; it's impressive with class A/B amps I have used to date, and with the Benchmark Audio Class AAA amps. The Benchmark DAC3 DX and AHB2 amps in Mono are superlative with Schroeder Method, among the most exquisite sounds I have had in my room to date. |
kalali, you should read up on the Schroeder Method to find out, among other things, that it is a "do at your own risk" technique. It is in the experimental stage in terms of finding out the parameters of its use. It is recommended to use four identical ICs, but I believe that member jayctoy has tried combining ICs of different makes. You may wish to talk to him here as well. As far as improvements go, I presume that even when using mismatched pairs of ICs the Schroeder Method would provide potentially superior results over a single IC. Also note that it does not take expensive ICs for it to work. |
Has anyone else lurking in the background done the Schroeder Method connections? I have seen only two mediocre results, and both of those seem to have been associated with headphone amps. I am unsure whether this would play a role in the less than impressive results obtained by others. I think it is entirely possible that the sound quality of the connection using Schroeder Method is of such high caliber that some headphone amps can't handle it. I wonder if there might be some signal saturation happening with headphone setups. I would encourage those who have tried it on headphone setups to try another combination using speakers, and see if there is a different result. |
stringreen, you're welcome! Glad you are having success with the Schroeder Method. It sounds like another happy user. It is a profound change, imo. I have been very pleased with how it is going in system development. I have not had in instance yet where Schroeder Method failed to vastly improve a rig. It's astonishing how much components are choked - that's about the best word for it, "choked" - via use of single IC. Performance of components is SO much better with double interconnects. One of the most enjoyable aspects of all this is the seeming irrationality of it. Theory does not dictate such a result, which is why it's so much fun. It seems nonsense, or worse. Yet, there it is! The results are anything but funny. :) My guess is there are people quietly trying this in the background who have not come forward yet. We have a lot of people intimidated by conventional wisdom, by nearly bully matches on threads, etc. One of the great things about this is that Schroeder Method is pretty cheap to implement if one wishes, and confers a major change even with affordable ICs. It's a win/win in terms of exploration. (As long as one respects the warnings regarding which equipment and systems it is to be avoided.) Stringreen, if things hold to their pattern in my use, the effect will be additive, and you will have additional improvement with another set of double ICs. Don't think for a moment that it could not get any better. All systems can be improved, usually far beyond our expectation. That it can be done relatively cheaply is a big bonus. You may conclude as I have that the Schroeder Method confers change on a level of component upgrades of several thousand of dollars. I have handled a lot of gear, some expensive, and this is not a "cheap" upgrade sonically. :) |
I got a double Schroeder balanced interconnect and have been using it for a couple of days now. What I find really interesting is how it changes as its breaking in. The first place I put it was between the CD player and the dedicated headphone amp. I couldn't believe the dynamic contrasts of the music I was hearing. ...not as to how loud it got, but rather it seemed to allow the after beat from the drummer to really stand out rather than sound "lazy" in comparison. I have a Purist Audio break in disc and played it through....you can't listen to it...its only noise. Anyway I got brave and connected the power amp and speakers. That dynamic that I liked seemed to lesson somewhat, but the speakers absolutely disappeared. The walls in the front of the room vanished. The instruments appeared not only with depth that I had with the older cables, but each instruments was suspended in its own space closer, and farther away. In a Niel Diamond record, a scratch guarro, sounded like someone was playing it not in the house, but way out to the right on the patio of the pool. The instruments and singer are now smaller and set in their own space. The cable just became better and better....the definition increased, so that listening to lyrics is now much easier. I could understand much of Elton John, but with this new cable I can relax and just let the understanding of what he's saying come through. As far as tonality is concerned Schroeder's cable sounds very, very similar to my expensive silver interconnects....but its as though a pretty girl has had a pro makeup person bring out the very best for a Robb Report centerfold. I'll get more cable for the long run from preamp to amp....I'll suppose there will be more to say. Thanks Doug |