Donald Fagen-Sunken Condos

Although I think "Nightfly" is his best, "Sunken Condos" is very good.

Thanks for the heads up, Mofimadness. I bought "Sunken Condos" today and I think it's another Donald Fagan classic. If you liked "Nightfly" you'll like this one. I also picked up the mfsl/SACD of Gram Parsons "GP" classic.

Really interesting article, thanks for posting the link, Onhwy61!

Okay, so what I now know is that Sunken Condos sounds all closed in, muffled and dry because that's the sound they were going for. Which mystifies me completely, but there you go.

I thought the talk about money constraints was interesting. But what really opened my eyes was that Fagen recorded his demos using Garageband. I also liked the insights about getting the drum groove without making it metronome precise.

Ya gotta love this quote; "...it's not so much about equipment as knowing the difference between what sounds good, and what only sounds good for a minute. You have to know what's going to sound good next week." He's referring to the studio but tell me it doesn't fit perfectly within this hobby.

Onhwy61...thanks for the link to the article. Very interersting. It's kinda neat that they can record specific instruments in specific studio rooms to get the best sound out of each of them. Then mix them all together for the final album.

I still think this is an excellent recording and record.

Here's a nice article about recording "Sunken Condos".

Wolf-garcia,
I think it's deliberate. Somewhere on the 'Gon there is a thread about Morph when it first came out. Somebody posted that they took that CD to dealers to evaluate the low end performance of speakers, and somebody else in the thread jumped all over them saying that the bass on that album is bloated and exaggerated and should never be used to evaluate anything. I also have the vinyl and if anything, the bass on that version is MORE pronounced!

Morph the Cat makes me run to turn down my subwoofer level control every time...not sure if that was intentional or a mastering error or what...but I bet there's more than one blown woofer in the wake of that album.

Rfprice: Yeah, I don't think this album would've made it past Roger Nichols (rest in peace). Where's the awesome clarity he brought to Two Against Nature or Everything Must Go? In the midrange that album sounds to me all airless and congealed. Or maybe my standards for SD/WB/DF albums are just unrealistic. By the way, I don't expect my system to levitate: too much danger of breaking a tube on my amps! :-P

Fagen's bar is set incredibly high

he lowered it a little with the way over emphasized bass on the Morph the Cat vinyl

Condos is stellar in the cd, and especially on the white translucent vinyl

Well, I don't expect my system to levitate, I just expect it to sound as good as Morph or the newer Steely Dan's and remasters, and it doesn't. I assumed these problems happen during the manufacturing process, but I guess I don't know much about it. Rebbi, maybe you and I just got duds.

I don't know, saying Donald Fagen released a bad sounding recording borders on blasphemy! Not to mention practically an impossibility based on his well documented obsession with superior sound quality! I think what I said earlier about the music also pertains to the sound quality. Fagen's set the bar so high some people expect their systems to levitate or something!;)

My "Condos" CD sounds fine. Lucky I guess...

I have the Japanese CD, sounds good but I've never heard the domestic version.

Rebbi: I agree with your opinion on the quality of this recording. Fagen/Dan recordings are usually better than this. I'm wondering if anyone has heard the Japanese pressing?

Lately I've been wondering about alternative pressings generally. I try to buy my favorite artists on Japanese pressings whenever I can, because the clarity is just better across the board. But I feel like the best CDs in my collection (3 or 4) were pressed in France. These seem to have the highest resolution.

Does anyone have an opinion on international pressings? If I could, I would pursue French pressings more often. But now I think all European discs say "EU."

Hmmm, maybe I'll start this as a new thread.

Steely Dan et al have had a much higher than average (for pop music anyway) level of musical complexity and range of style since day one, and in that context there is a very large stash of musical ideas to plunder. I assume they don't care what the public thinks as long as the live shows sell out and somebody buys enough music from 'em to justify continuing, but in the context of having a long run with nothing to prove except to themselves I think the recent stuff is amazingly well done. It's good to remember one particular group who mostly think they're brilliant: Professional musicians.

Carlos Santana is supposed to have answered an interviewer's question about the sameness of his guitar solos with "so my mother recognizes me on the radio". Pop/rock music really isn't known for it's originality. If you play and perform for nearly 40 years you're just not going to keep evolving and growing. Even Miles "New Directions In Music" Davis stuck to jazz/funk for the final 20 years of his career. Fagen/Becker have found a niche that they do really well and I'm thankful they continue to produce anything.

I may have said this before, but I can't remember and am too lazy to go back and read this thread...The use of carefully arranged vocal harmony always gets these guys bonus points from me. "Circus Money" is also brilliant, although maybe it requires some extra listening time for that fact to sink in. Regardless of the imagined "total point score" of any of this stuff in the run for the Steely Dan Related Output Championship, I think they put a lot of labor into their quirky music and like it or not, that always shows through.

Chazro,
Guilty as charged! What happened was this:
When the album first came out, I was in a hurry to hear it, so I downloaded it from iTunes. Then it hit me that without the album cover and liner notes, I was missing part of the experience, so I bought the CD on Amazon.
Then as I begin to listen to the album more, I realized that the sonic quality was far below what I was used to hearing from Steely Dan or Donald Fagan records. So I bought the high resolution download. (Which, by the way, seems to me to be the best sounding version so far.) I actually hit the point that you were talking about, however, when I considered buying the vinyl. At that point, it was like, "This is crazy. Why have four copies of the album I don't like that much?"
I think it's also partly that I have been such a huge fan for so long that I couldn't quite accept the idea that Donald would put out an album that I didn't like that much.
By the way, I agree with Marty that Walter Becker's 11 Tracks of Whack, is brilliant. There was a period of time a few weeks ago when Hat Too Flat (the chorus thereof) was stuck in my head for several days in a row. It also happens to be a really good sounding record, in its own, quirky way.

I agree 101% with Wolf! There are a few of the above posters that say "it's the same old stuff"...DUH! That's why I listen to Steely Dan...I LIKE THEIR STUFF!!!

I also listen to the Eagles, the Beatles, Van Morrison, Elton John, Jackson Browne, etc. Know why? Because I LIKE THEIR STUFF! If they changed so dramatically, I wouldn't like their stuff.

That's why we all listen and like certain artists. It's not rocket science guys. If you want something different, find another artist.

I admit it required a bit of time to warm up to, but I am loving "Sunken Condos".
I like the sq on my system.
Going to put it on now!

Regards,

Even on a bad day the newer Fagan/Becker stuff is currently much more interesting than 99% of the crap out there, and that's all I can ask of them. Actually, I can ask of them to make more of it, as I'm sure they're hanging on my every word. I listen to Jazz and Classical most of the the time anyway so I don't care that much, although I did ask Peter Washington (Bill Charlap Trio bass player...I mixed a live show of theirs a few weeks ago) about opening for Steely Dan and he said something like, "They're brilliant but a bunch of perverts"...and that made me smile. I expect nothing less from Becker and Fagan.

I've also found the that last several releases from SD/WB/DF have felt a bit too familiar to get really excited about. I doubt that these guys will ever release a real flat-out dog because there's just too much talent and too much "quirkiness" on hand, but they do seem to cover the same ground a bit too often for my taste.

OTOH, I do agree with Wolf re: 11 Tracks of Whack. I've probably spent more time with that one than with anything else SD/DF/WB has released.

I think Fagen's guilty of setting the bar too high. 'Sunken Condos' is a good record, not great, and certainly not his best.

Rebbi, I'm left wondering why anyone would buy something THREE times and than profess to HATE the record?! Did you expect a different format to change your feelings about the music?

Okay, I now own this album as a CD, a hi-res download from HDTracks and as an iTunes set. And I must say something that as a Steely Dan / Donald Fagen fanatic since my high school days, I never thought I'd say: I hate this record. The sonics - while best to my ears on the hi-res FLAC download, still sound muffled and muddy to me. (RIP Roger Nichols!) And the writing is so below what DF is capable of. What a bummer.

I auditioned it, not enough of a departure from him/them to entice me to buy.

I still like cerebral funk...even when derivative of itself.

Haven't heard this one yet, but for me, their last few releases have all been formulaic. They keep trying to remake Gaucho, or parts of Aja, but the songs just don;t have the edge that they did back then.

Time to move on fella's. Take a chance on something new and stop trying to just "cash in".

I am also a big Steely Dan and Donald Fagen fan but haven't been able to warm up to this one. Other than the muffled midrange mentioned above, this LP has too much of a recycled quality, like we have heard these songs before. I remember one cut sounding amazingly like a song on SD Two Against Nature. Again, I always feel lucky when SD or DF release a new recording, but this one is too homogeneous and covers no new ground. Listen to recent releases by Paul Simon, The Cars, and the Doobie Brothers--all of them sound fresh and the cuts are not all woven from the same cloth. Maybe I will warm up to it with a few repeated listens.

This is definitely growing on me. From the get-go thought the lyrics were very good. Took some time for the music to open up to me (don't mean sonically). Especially liking guitar work by Jon Herington. Thinking it might rank above Morph the Cat in my little hierarchy of Fagen work.

Reopening the case, Fagan competes with himself and can't win that one as he keeps sounding like Donald Fagan, but I think the album (CD) sounds great sonically with layers of funk buried in there, and I like the fact that all the songs have individual tonal makeup. Some recordings from "Dan et al" have this "spitty" cymbal tone that I find strange, but after a few listenings SC's weirdness is refreshing and the cymbals and everything else sounds nicely detailed on my system. For new stuff, what the hell else is out there? A note about "Fagan Faves", "Snowbound" on Kamakiriad has a fave GREAT bass tone.

Donjr,

What I find a little disappointing about SC is, again, the lack of strong melodies, which adds to that "sameness," I think.

Look, the guy is an incredibly gifted composer and there are great songs on all his earlier solo albums:

Nightfly: Every melody is a gem; not a clunker on that whole album. "Maxine" and "Green Flower Street" are especially strong, IMHO.

Kamakiriad: "On The Dunes" is gorgeous, and the opening bars of "Springtime" are as lovely as anything he's ever written.

Morph: Strong title tune, and "The Night Belongs To Mona" is a truly remarkable song.

But again, what I find on SC is mostly catchy grooves... not much else. But I'm gonna keep listening to see if it grows me.

Just my 2 cents.

I personally like the recording but all Fagens work blurs together. It all starts to sound the same with different lyrics. I like it but he hasn't moved forward. I don't like the same old same old.

Do you guys really think SC is a good sounding recording? I find everything, especially vocals, to have a muffled quality. The HD Trracks download is better in that regard.

So far, and I'm a huge fan of SD and DF, I find the album strong on grooves but weak, melodically. I'll see if I grows on me, though.

I tried.....

Based on the evidence presented herein, I rest my case.

"Turn up the Eagles, Wolf-garcia is rambling" (yet again)

Note to self: The oddly insecure can be VERY sensitive to sarcasm or "Teen Wolf" soundtrack references, possibly triggering tropical partnering fantasies. "Beach Boy...get that dude his meds...he seems ominously troubled." This thread reads like a Walter Becker song.

I agree!! Let put's our guns away for another day.

Dan's lyrics are surely crytic, though not necessarily outrageous "Turn up the Eagles, the neighbors are listening" is a great throw away line As if listening to a "Peaceful, Easy Feeling" will somehow mute the exchange of gunfire in a cozy suburban parlor

Fagen and Becker as "beat poets"; I guess so, if they are pushing 60 to 65. Maybe, they should written a rock opera using Allen Ginsberg monumental poem, "Howl". That would have been quite an interesting set of songs. The work may have run neck and neck with "Tommy", and the (non operatic) "Sgt Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band"

I think Dan can bring a smile to anyone and not in the form of therapeutic pablum, by creating snapshots of quirky and also disturbing moments. "Katy Lied" and "The Royal Scam" lay a photo album on the coffee table and the listener( or viewer) can't turn away.

I think the Beatles did this the best starting with Revolver, SPLHCB, The White Album, and ending with Abbey Road. However, behind the harlequin mask, the lyrics in this chain of pop songs portends something ominous and troubling

How about a shift in direction with apologies to OP Mofi? Came across this from 2007; a lot of fun regarding some of the more obscure Dan lyrics.

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/staff_top_10/top-ten-obscure-steely-dan-lyrics.htm

My favorite Steely Dan/Walter Becker/Donald Fagen album is........whatever one I am listening to at the time. I am just grateful that these guys keep putting out recordings in this day of execrable sonic dreck. I have always loved these beat poets and their unorthodox take on things. The infectious melodies and top-rate recordings are just a plus.

Children, go to your rooms for time out !!!!!

Oh, poor wolf-man left howling at the moon when the gf splits because she is sick of listening to "Muffin the Cat" or "Merd, the Cat. or old Johnny Ray albums

I used Wikipedia so as not to strain your intellect. BTW, I don't sit alone in my basement. I usually sit on the beach at Waikiki Beach in Hawaii with several GF's It is going to be sunny and 85 tomorrow. Geez, what might the weather be in Transylvania, wolf-man. Stormy, I guess, and perfect for playing yet again "Minus the Cat" not "Sister Morphine" (Too dark, so you prefer the American Idol version of "Morph") Check out the Animal Planet cable station: There is a "My Cat From Hell" marathon next weekend. Maybe you could play some major tracks from "Morris the Cat" on the xylophone with Donald Fagen lip-synching the words.

I wish you don't choose to keep parceling out bits of your large ego on each exchange because your sarcasm will never succeed and you can't win.

Oh no...SARCASM! I forgot that Palmer was the first black president...I did like "24." As a vocalist for Steely Dan (a little over 40 years ago) Palmer's been pretty much relegated to trivia for most listeners as he has a somewhat forgettable voice compared to Fagan's weirdo voice, although it would seem sunnyjim (and the always reliable wikipedia) will keep his memory alive! I'll keep enjoying my gf, my Morph the Cat album, and sunnyjim should happily sit (apparently alone...*sigh*...) in his basement and que up his Teen Wolf video for some classic Palmer. See? It's all good...

Geepers: Wolf-Man. I feel like I am the victim of some clever sarcasm...and misinformation. Check the link below.

BTW, has the GF packed her bags yet, and posted on match.com. Let me know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Palmer_(vocalist)

Sunnyjim...clearly you have your own taste (!), but I fully expect everybody to agree with me all the time about everything, including you. Don't let me down...I'm very sensitive. I do have to note however that Fagan and Becker are all Steely Dan is really...they write, direct, chose the musicians, and pay for the pizza, and David Palmer has to be the Pete Best of "Danophelia". I watched Palmer lipsynch Fagen's lead vocal on a silly American Bandstand appearance...a great moment in the history of pop music embarassment.

Forgot to mention, I really like the cover art. Got me to thinking, how much depreciation on my $2,500,000 beach side condo after she goes under the waves from global warming?

On the bright side, we could think of all those buildings as artificial reefs. Probably provide good structure for the fish!

Well fortunately, I don't have to worry about that contingency. And if it gets me in Minnesota I guess we're all screwed. 8^)

Bought MTC lp and received 2 copies by mistake. After listening to one, I decided to keep the second...just in case...

I guess you could call me a fan, I ordered the Japanese version of this new Fagen CD as soon as I heard about it. Unfortunately I have not had time to listen yet.

Warning, if you order from Japan there are two versions available, a made in Japan version and a import version (don't know where it comes from, maybe US?). Obviously you don't want to pay shipping etc. for a CD you could probably buy cheaper here.

Up to now "Nightfly" is definitely my favorite, probably will continue to be. I agree with Onhwy61, it's close to perfect, a masterpiece.

Sometimes it takes a while to warm to some songs because they're frequently more complex, both lyrically and musically, than your run of the mill shit kick'n rock'n'roll. If there's no catchy tune then it takes a little longer for me.

I have a feeling this one's going to be pretty good like "MTC" and "Kamakiriad", but not great like "Nightfly". Again, we'll see after I listen to this new one a few times.