Just got my new Audioquest K 2 speaker cables from DH GATE yep I said it. I bought my previous Audioquest cables from my former employer [Audio Buys] Summer job pre wiring houses. Still great friends. Anyway paid their cost for a brand spanking new pair of "Bed Rock" cables I was so proud. So what I know are quote un quote real Audioquest cables just got blown away by a $380.00 total cost [shipped door to door in 6 days] pair of Audioquest k2's from DH Gate.
Jp, Pb... I guess they're all made there especially tubing and terminating equipment that is being used by vast majority of US manufacturers. Buy one for yourself and you're good to manufacture any wire you wish to make. Fake will look and sound SAME and that's the bottom line as long as you know what they're made of weather it's legal, not legal to manufacture or purchase, fair, not fair they're competitors now and there are reasons, facts and 'COZes' I've described above. It's just wires and our beloved US manufacturers may deeply go down on prices of their 'gimmemomani' branded products.
Pbnaudio, your place as manufacturer puts you in the unique position of seeing and knowing things others don't.
I'm not here to say that the AQ cables you mentioned at heavy discount from HK are authentic, but nor would I believe they're counterfeit, either.
We know of far too many examples of entities who have sited manufacture in China, only to discover the handle on production control they believed in proved wishful thinking. Time and again, folks with access to product/production figured out they can do well selling through means other than the expected outlet. Though some of this is obviously unethical, if not criminal, before casting criticism on those over there, how many of these Western entities employed the requisite business protections to safeguard themselves? I can say from personal experience, in the high-end audio business, many a company has failed to make even the most basic of moves.
Obviously, in these instances, folks can source the same product intended for sale at much higher pricing at steep discount.
Audioquest manufactures cables in China for a long time (10 years?). They moved production there, cut prices and changed names of the cables to stay competitive. Python IC, for instance, became King Cobra (half of the price). I suspect that big portion of price is not actual cost of manufacturing but R&D. I don't know if this can explain such price difference but on the other hand DH Gate doesn't give any specifications. Are they high purity silver? what type of insulation? Is it foam Polyethylene and carbon loaded partially conductive Polyethylene for negative conductors? Even if all is perfect copy of original (including patented DBS system) I would ask if DH Gate has authorization from AQ. If not, it is pretty much like buying stolen bike - some people wouldn't do it but others pretend not to know it is stolen.
I've always like AQ cables, but was slightly worried when I bought some from a fellow audiophile in China. I took them to a friend who works a nearby high end audio store, compared them to new ones, and they passed the authenticity test. I come out of this an absolute winner in every way having saved enough money to put several otherwise impoverished students through medical school thereby helping make a better life for all the little children in the world.
Kijanki, It was mentioned that DHGate isn't a distributor but just provider of market for multiple sellers. You never know if they're authorized to sell AQ or any kind of cables, but the bottom line is THEY ARE A LOT CHEAPER and look and sound like real. Who cares if consumer is HAPPY?
Marakanetz, Perhaps AQ cares if design is stolen. I'm not sure what provider means. I don't believe AQ sells original cables with 95% discount. It is like with bootleg DVDs, I wouldn't buy it but many people do.
Well the "mystery" is solved. I today received my "K2" speaker cables - paid $ 371 for them delivered via DHL. They came in a nice box and looked to be "real"
I decided to take them apart to see what the scoup was and this is what I found.
The cables have the "correct" color cable jacket on them Black and Silver, the aluminum bezels are silkscreened "K2"
The internal wires are silver clad copper - so here is a mismatch as the K2 is supposed to be solid silver, these are not.
I removed the bezel at the end of the wire where it split into two and cut away the heat shrink and pulled back the cable jacket - below is a wire thats labeled "Audioquest Rockefeller 3 Speaker wire" So it appears that the folks at DH gate are selling entry level Rockefeller wire relabeled as top if the line K2.
A 8 foot pair of Rockefeller have a retail price of $962 as mentioned I paid $ 371 for them - about the same as I would have paid for them if I had sourced them here in the US
So there really is no free lunch - If a deal is to good to be true it usually is :-)
So somebody is getting Rockefeller 3 wire, wrapping it in K2 sheath and K2 bezel and connectors and selling them for 1/3 of US retail? And then shipping them from China to US. Does this make financial sense to anyone?
Manitunc, Asuuming that this wire is Rockefeller. It could be another layer of deception since we're dealing with dishonest people. Bezels, wrapping and connectors are most likely very cheap.
well, thats my point. If it is silver coated, it isnt regular Rockefeller cable. PBN says the cable sheath says Rockefeller 3. I cant find any info on the "3" version to know if it is different that regular Rockefeller. but even if it isnt, it is being sold at 1/3 the price of regular Rockefeller, with different connectors, sheathing, and interior packaging. Seems like a lot of work for little gain. why not just call it rockefeller and sell it for 1/3 retail price without the additional work? Very odd business model.
Yes strange indeed - I've posted another picture with a lot more detail as well as description
I hooked up the wire in my system last night and listened for a few hours, its OK but slightly "lighter" sounding than my Kimber 16TC which projects more "weight"
Anyway a fun little experiment with a expected outcome - you get what you pay for :-)
I suspect that once some people see $8500 cable for $380 they cannot resist and the fact that it is made in China makes whole thing believable. Of course there is also placebo effect - if you believe that it is K2 it will sound like one.
Here is the description that was supposed to be at the picture posted on my system page the Audiogon website cuts at a quotation mark ?
Here are some more pictures of the wire - it's definitely silver plated copper and it appears to have the right geometry and size of conductors a pair of 17 Gauge and a pair of 20 gauge labeled Treble on one side of the wire and a pair of 16 gauge and a pair of 19 gauge conductors on the other side labeled Bass - the conductors measure right sized with a caliper. On each side there are a small gauge unused white wire as well as a naked ground wire that's connected to the black lead on each end. Each side have a foil shield and the 3 filler leads between the conductor leads appears to be cotton or similar thread.
If you read audio quests description, they don't clearly say the k2 wire is solid silver. They talk about a smooth surface when they discuss silver, so maybe it is only supposed to be silver coated.
PBN How did you determine which plugs went into which inputs on the speaker end of the biwire cables. Supposedly, if they are reversed, where the high frequency ends went into the woofer inputs, you would get a lighter bass and alternatively, if the bass ends went into the treble inputs you would experience a less articulate treble. Is there some sort of marking on the wire that tells you which is which?
The wires are terminated as single wire, the bezels have "Amplifier end" and "Speaker end" Silkscreened on them.
Upon deconstructing the wires the internal wires all have marking on them indicating gauge, intended purpose and direction ie. "17 gauge - treble -> " in this case where they came terminated as a single wire cable all 4 red and black leads are twisted together out of the bezel, covered with a piece of cable flex, then terminated with a banana plug, red and black respectively.
The naked ground wire form both sides of the cable are twisted together then connected to the black terminal. In my setup I suspect that this is not an optimal cable to use as my power amps are fully differential which means that the negative node is not ground but carries signal, the cable seems to be constructed as to suggest that the negative lead is ground.
If you want to try them $ 380 would get them shipped to you :-)
...and after all nice business opportunity to all readers isn't it?
Gotta appreciate Placebo that makes some people very rich due to audiophiles who read Stereophile.
Gotta ask profet Mr Fremer what he would think about that LOL!
Gotta raise my both hands to appreciate Tycomb for posting and presenting learning resources for naive and rich 'goners.
And finally, don't know where Peter had ID'd authenticity, but it's really not the point. The point is that hopefully we all see wire prices will go down quite a-bit.
I by no means claim to have authenticated the cable form China - Iv'e merely described, to the best of my ability, its construction, from there folks can make up their own mind to what they think about it.
They are all put back together again - looks almost like new just the outer sleeve could not be pulled all the way back under the bezel about 1/2 " thats black taped up under the bezel but- still looks very presentable.
Don't know of any other folks using this technique, silver over copper, but I'm sure its an readily available commodity from wholesale suppliers. As you pointed out the AQ site is vague on if the K2 are solid silver leads or just have a "perfect" surface silver coating.
If you want I can shoot you some high-res pictures. The photos on my "systems" page does not allow for critical inspection. Shoot me an email form my website and I'll forward you the pictures.
On Audioquest website there is theory-education sub-section "Do No Harm". Audioquest explains that silver plated copper is used mostly at high frequency video or digital applications but they use it for subwoofer cables. It sounds like PSS is pure solid silver.
PBN, I take it the cables you have are single wire. I was really looking for biwire. but I have another question. How did you determine that the wire is silver coated? did you scrape off some silver to expose copper?
this whole thread makes me question the economics of making counterfeit cables as opposed to grey market. In this case, if the K2 cable is counterfeit, the maker went to a lot of trouble and effort to copy the external and internal packaging, with molded plastic container, silkscreen the correct labeling on the cables and connectors, create the battery pod for the 72v dielectric charge, copy the exterior sheath, and use the same guage wires, with the only difference we might find is that the wires might be silver plated instead of solid silver. seems like a lot of work to sell something at 3% of the normal retail price.
I would suspect that these are more likely grey market or back door cables out of the same factory in China
PBN said, "you get what you pay for," but I'd argue that's not really true here. If it is indeed Rockefeller, it's still a huge bargain at the price, right?
There's one other piece of the puzzle that hasn't been addressed. Someone needs to cut open some legitimate K2 to compare with the results of PBN's investigation.
The point is that if it realy looks like Rockefeller it will sound like one too. No matter how righteous you are, you can't and won't stop this market.
Yes indeed I scraped of some silver to expose copper, its also evident form looking in at the end of the conductors.
I don't think these wires are "counterfeits" in the sense as made a completely different place than legit Audioquest wire, everything just looks to "real" including the box they came in.
Theres another clue as to that its a "Rockefeller" wire when looking in straight at the wide side of the cable you see only 2 silver stripes barely any of the silver stripes on the sides, just like the picture on AQ's site of the Rockefeller. On their picture of the real K2 much more of the stripes on the sides are visible indicating that the k2 is physically larger than the Rockefeller .
Now for some pure speculation - could it be that this wire was a test run of wire that never made it to market, the "Rockefeller 3" The wire picked up by some "crafty" folks whom terminated them put them in boxes and marketed them as real "K2" because of all the similarities, ie color of jacket silver plated wire etc. Again this is pure speculation on my side.
"could it be that this wire was a test run of wire that never made it to market, the "Rockefeller 3"
It could also be any cheap wire with Rockefeller printed on the outside. Original Rockefeller uses partially conductive Polyethylene insulation on negative wire. Easy enough to measure with ohmmeter. If it measures infinity then it cannot be Rockefeller. Also, AQ stated that they use silver plated copper for subwoofer wire only.
That is another possibility but at this time i don't think so - theres to many things that are "right" with this wire. Per your suggestion i tried to measure conductance of the insulation with a Fluke 187 multimeter on the insulation with 1/2" spacing between leads and it measures infinite on both positive and negative. Tried the same on a pair of genuine Audioquest Viper interconnects I have with the same result infinite resistenace on all three leads. It can be that this "partially conductive" polyethylene would have to be measured for conductance with for an example a "megger" (instrument used for measuring ground faults in electrical installations, that measures at a much higher voltage - 1000V)
So I'm going to suggest something crazy - anyone having participated in this thread having a feedback of at least 50, no negatives, are welcome to try out these wires - I'll send them to you via fedex ground, If you accept this offer you agree to be responsible for shipping them back to me or to the next person wanting to try them out whom will be accepting the same responsibilities, you also agree that you will not take them apart more than you are capable of putting them back together again.
Peter, why you compare it to Viper? Viper uses foam Polyethylene and should measure infinity. Carbon loaded Polyethylene should measure within 1Mohm. This is second clue in addition to silver plating that shouldn't be there.
Of course, I am not sure that K2 is actually solid silver either. The description on Audioquest's website is a little vague, calling it perfect surface silver. Dont know if that means the cable has a perfect silver surface, or if the surface of the silver wire is perfect.
Still seems like a lot of work for little reward. I am going to order a pair and see what happens. they claim they have a full return policy and I will pay with paypal. PBN, do you know which particular supplier you got yours from?
Hi FI Store - but DH gate does no longer accept paypal, to me that would not matter anyway as they will be useless if you file a dispute for counterfeit merchandise, speaking form experience here.
If you just want to try them before you buy I can configure mine for Bi Wire and you can see if its the way you want to go - just send them back to me once you are done with them - I won't use them anyway and since its out in the open that they have been taken apart and may be fake its useless to try and pawn them of on anyone :-) not my bag anyway.
pbn, I am ordering the biwire version just for my own satisfaction. Willing to take the $400 gamble. God knows Ive thrown away more than that over the years on sillier things. Might end up buying yours anyway later for my Home Theatre or den system. then I would have 10k cables on a 4k system. Ill let everyone know what I find.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
