Don’t buy used McCormack DNA 1990s amps

My question is this. How did you come in contact with this "sales person"? Did you call sMC audio or did they reach out to you? Is this a third party "sales person" who has nothing to do with sMC? I really doubt that you spoke with Patrick or Steve. Please give more information for such a damning post.

As far as you claiming I’m misrepresenting the salesperson, I already explained it was an authorized agent I primarily dealt with. However I do believe the $10.5k asking price for the refurbished amp without balanced inputs was set by the company, allegedly that encompassed a commission, which I found odd since I never paid a commission on any of my equipment before.

Again, at the end of the day, it wasn’t a good experience for me personally. And I would just advise to do your homework and proceed with appropriate due diligence especially when buying anything custom. Apparently, these amps and associated refurbishment work depreciate quick and don't have a large resale market, so be prepared my fellow consumers.

Look, i don’t have any motivation to denigrate or anything of the sort. Your insinuation that sharing my honest experience is "disgusting " is ridiculous. So if a customer has a truthful experience that doesn’t align with your particular company’s narrative you resort to baseless and false attacks? Please, get over yourself. The world isn’t limited to experiences that always align with your preconceived notions. And at the end of the day, my point is to always ask for transparency, detailed information and check with market data.  Every consumer should be advocates for such behavior . 

This story seems very odd to me too.  What you describe is 180 degrees from any experience I have ever had with SMc Audio. You may have been speaking with a former customer or possibly another industry professional who has a loose association with SMc Audio and ended up too far over their skis when trying to sell an amplifier. In my over 20 years of dealing with them, I have never heard of them pressuring anybody to do anything.

At this point, SMc Audio is mostly a very small boutique craftsman shop and they usually have all the work they need.   As far as I know there are only two principal employees and I doubt you were speaking with either of them.  Their bespoke manufacturing model is maybe not for everyone but most of us who have their stuff understand the high level of quality and value of their products.  IME, they are extremely good people to work with.

@fishagedone So, here’s the thing, I just flat out don’t believe your little story and it strains credibility in every way. I don’t know what your motivation is, but for you to come here and try to denigrate a company of the highest integrity is disgusting. At the very least you’re misrepresenting that the salesman you were dealing with works for SMcAudio because they don’t have any salespeople.  It’s just Steve and Patrick and that’s it. 
 

Yes, it is true they don’t have a dedicated sales force. It appears to be largely a one-man operation with helpers. I’m not going to dox anyone or speak badly about any person in particular, that’s not how I do things. I am just sharing my experience with the company and somebody who apparently works with them. I do have credible personal information that this was an authorized sales distribution channel I was working with. Look, if you had a good experience with them great, I'm just sharing my personal experience and issues that I encountered.  

All I can say is this was my experience. Well, if you think $10.5k for a refurbished amp with decades old chassis and no balanced inputs is worth it, have at it ! I personally don’t think it’s a good value, and the same model was selling with a balanced input added for less than half on Audio Mart ! Call BS all you want but everything is 100 percent factual and I have all of the evidence and documents to support everything I am saying.

SMcAudio is a boutique brand at this point - selling high-end amps, preamps, etc.  and they also rebuild old McCormack amps.  I’ve heard nothing but great things about them. I still have an original McCormack DNA-1 Deluxe and have exchanged email with Pat about rebuilding it.  He’s never pressured or even tried to sell me — just answered my questions and was really helpful.  It’s also not crazy to have amps over $10K that aren’t balanced. Many examples out there. If you don’t want to buy it, just don’t buy it.  What if I wrote a post that Pass Labs is sketchy? The XA25 is only 25 watts per channel and isn’t even balanced and they have the nerve to charge $5.2K for it.  Barely any specs on their website and no measurements.  Buyer beware!!!   Sounds silly, right?
 

@fishagedone  I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t pass the smell test.  I and many people here have dealt with SMcAudio for years and they’ve been nothing but straight shooters.  Plus, as far as I know they don’t have a sales force.  This sounds like bullcrap. 

Well, I just had an experience where a sales guy working with SMC audio was pressuring me into buying a refurbished Smc audio amplifier for $10.5k. It didn’t even have balanced inputs, and very little information was provided. I respectfully declined as there was no way to verify the value or features of the product. I became especially cautious when I saw a listing for the same model on Audio Mart for half price off. I would advise anyone spending more than $2k with this company to get a detailed feature list, model information, and compare prices with prior products that have sold on Audiogon.com, Audio Mart USA, or ebay. Buyer Beware taking the salesman "word for it" without doing your own third party due diligence. The salesman was very convincing and employed a high pressure sales tactic, using "scarcity" and all the same sales points mentioned in this thread. Just because a company does high end consulting work doesn’t mean anything about whether prices are fair and how they stack up against market competition. At $10.5k i could have got a new Pass Lab, Mcintosh integrated, so many good choices , how could I just buy a refurbished product without detailed market pricing information.

If you want to sell it here, you’ll have to pay for an ad.

@vair68robert Yeah, you’re right and that was probably a bit harsh and I apologize.  It was, however misleading. 

@soix 

I don't believe  that saying  @ram360j  was spreading " CRAP " ,  maybe he was wrong by calling a " sister " company .

Hello Friends -

It is certainly no secret that McCormack Audio was purchased by the Conrad-Johnson Design Group back in 1998. It was then moved back to Virginia, where it shares its headquarters with conrad-johnson. While both companies share resources, they each maintain their separate, distinct identities.

I am still the primary designer for McCormack Audio, and have done the equipment design since the move. I also do the shows and dealer seminars. My true role, however, is as part of a design team, so I may not be responsible for every aspect of some future designs.

A good deal of my time is also taken-up by my own small business, SMc Audio. This is something I enjoy very much, as it brings me into direct contact with you folks and lets me indulge my audio imagination by rebuilding my earlier designs. I think this works-out pretty well for all concerned ;-)

Best regards,

Steve McCormack
www.SMcAudio.com​​​​​​​

@vair68robert Like I said, CJ and McCormack were involved in producing a few models but nothing much more than that. They were certainly not “sister companies.”

@soix 

Conrad Johnson manufactured the MF2250 & MF2275 solid state amplifiers ,

They are the same as the McCormack DNA-250 , which C.J. manufactured after buying the name and rights to McCormack ,  Steve McCormack makes no claim to designing the 250 ,

so C.J. will repair that model , at least when I contacted them a few years ago .

@ram360j CJ is not the sister company of McCormack.  They had a business relationship for a few models that CJ may support and that’s it.  There are decades of legacy McCormack amps that CJ has no relationship with nor responsibility for and likely will in no way support.  Not even McCormack will repair their legacy models, especially if the repair involves the critical input board.  Please don’t spread crap you have no knowledge of. 

Whom...

to who it may concern did you realize that Conrad Johnson is the sister company and the cad repair that amp you can talk to them directly.

@paimei 

If I could have anything in audio,  a new Mccormack would be at the top of that list.  If it existed.

Yes it mostly does exist, as mentioned previously in this thread.  If a new McCormack amplifier is truly at the top of your list, then buy one (or two if you want monoblocks) of whatever model McCormack amplifier you want (DNA 0.5, 1.0, 125, or 225, but not the DNA 2) from the used market, send it to Patrick at SMc Audio, and he can create what is essentially a new McCormack amplifier for you, only better sounding than the original - no kidding. 

Board degradation is a fact.  And its a terrible thing with Mccormack.  Those old Mccormacks were some of the best sounding amps at any price. I have heard B&W paired with many different amps and sources.  To this day nothing touches the quality they produced when paired with the Mccormack amps.  If I could have anything in audio,  a new Mccormack would be at the top of that list.  If it existed.

The input boards are repairable as he and I talked about what needed to be done (time intensive).

@atlvalet Yeah, that’s why SMcAudio is no longer doing only the repair. Time intensive = expensive and/or not worth the shop’s time/effort to repair.

I didn't see anything posted anywhere in this thread about ARC, but thought I'd comment on it:

@fsonicsmith wrote:

Audio Research Corp will not repair their solid state amps. They say it is not possible. 

Pyramid Audio repaired my D400mkii, which ARC says is a very heavy and expensive paperweight if the power caps go bad. (un-serviceable). It works great now, but it's a PITA to deal with from a repair tech perspective (power caps are directly soldered to the boards). But that situation addresses a point brought up in this thread...barring a major malfunction, most equipment can be repaired if someone has the knowledge and/or skill.

Also, I happened to stop by @kchamber's place this weekend to pick up some Aragon gear he worked on and he had the aforementioned DNA-1 in his work area. The input boards are repairable as he and I talked about what needed to be done (time intensive). Since Kevin is local enough to me, I for one would feel fine picking up up a DNA-1 amp and having him work his magic (as he has for a few other pieces of my equipment).

If one doesn't have access to a good tech, caveat emptor (as they say)

So, outside of something catastrophic, if you can find a competent tech one should have no fear of an amp being inoperable.

@roxy54 Unfortunately not.  I’m going through a divorce so my time at home is very limited, but whenever I finally get to hear the damn thing I’ll certainly forward my thoughts.  But, I also have to qualify my impressions as I simultaneously changed my preamp to a Linear Tube Audio MZ2 with upgraded LPS (that I’m also using as my top headphone amp) from my former, and excellent, Bryston BP-6.  So, I really can’t give an apples to apples comparison, but I’ll definitely forward my impressions for whatever they’re worth.  Hopefully will be within a month or so.  Sorry for the delay. 

@soix 

Are you able to give us sonic impressions of your upgrade yet?

#@&&%%**#$

Damn, I spoke with you and Pat about a year ago, and was given a price for capacitor upgrade, and a bunch of other stuff. 
  Fingers crossed for reliability. 
never had good luck with my gear. 
 

I will have to add 750s’ to my kids nightly prayers.

well, if and when there is a breakdown, I will give a call and ask if you have the time for gold+ revision. 
 

cheers Steve, great week. 

Thanks for your interest. Yes on the LD-2, but no on the 750 monos and the UDP-1. We have never done upgrade work on the UDP-1, but we have done a few pairs of the 750 monoblocks in the past, but no longer. Like the DNA-2, DNA-500, the 750 monos are just too big and heavy for an efficient workflow. They eat up too much time and are too expensive to be practical.

Steve M

All upgrades still available for the the dna750 monos.

LD-2 ?

not for the UDP-1?

The DNA-1 design predates the DNA-0.5 by around 2 years. I made several changes to the circuit design for the 0.5, and its circuit boards were a bit smaller and not as complex as the DNA-1. There is a central ground area on the DNA-1 board that is the location of most of the through-plating failures, and this was done differently on the DNA-0.5 board. In the end, the original DNA-0.5 board is a bit smaller, less complex, and less prone to through-plating failures - although as Pat has pointed-out, we have begun to see these failures in the past few years.

I designed an all-new circuit board (called the R3) a few years back when it became clear that working on the original boards was a losing battle. With some careful layout it was possible to make one board that fits both amps, so that was a welcome bit of efficiency. In addition, the quality of the boards we get now is exceptional, and better than the originals.

Steve M

@stevemcx Thanks for chiming in here Steve — most helpful.  Not to get too much into the weeds here, but I’d think since I assume both the DNA-1 and 0.5 input boards were designed around the same time and assuming they’re more alike than different, what makes the DNA-1 board more prone to failure, or, what makes the 0.5 board less prone to failure?  Just curious because that’s very interesting.  Sorry to take your time, but thanks for any thoughts. 

Your DNA-0.5 may be just fine. They have held-up better overall than the DNA-1. Give us a call if you have any questions.

Steve M

@stevemcx 

Thanks for chiming in here.  I've enjoyed your recent vids with Audiophile junkie.

After your initial post I thought my 0.5 was off the hook!  Oh well.  It is over 20 yrs old after all.  I will have to get it back in the system soon and see what happens.  

Photodusty - Yes, the circuit boards are the same in the DNA-1 Standard & Deluxe. The difference was in the higher-performance / more-expensive parts used in key circuit locations in the Deluxe model. This included resistors, capacitors, diodes, wire, and connectors.

The new main board I designed as a replacement upgrade (called the "R3 board") fits both the DNA-1 & DNA-0.5 amps.

Pereza - I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying your DNA-500 - it's a fine amp. The reason we don't offer upgrades for it any more has nothing to do with its circuit boards or any reliability issue - it's just so big and heavy that it becomes a major pain to work on and thus costs a lot more than we feel makes sense. I hope you will continue to enjoy it.

Steve McCormack

Bummer; I had been in vague discussions with Patrick regarding upgrading my DNA500. Never really got any specific prices. Probably mostly my fault for not pursuing. Anybody know of anyone else doing work on these amps. Maybe it's better to move on to another brand like Pass Labs etc. that's currently in production. Love the DNA500. Still sounds great. I have it paired with CJ Gat. Good match. Has not given me any trouble. Leave it on all the time as the relay switch is sketchy.

@stevemcx Just to confirm, do the DNA-1 and the DNA-1 DELUXE share the same boards?

Thanks for all your info on this!

db

Sorry Soix - my mistake. It was someone else who was dissatisfied with his DNA-225 upgrade. I still wish we could have another go at sorting that out for him.

The original DNA amps all date to the '90s, with a few final pieces of the DNA-1 and 0.5 being built in the Virginia factory after the company was purchased by the Conrad-Johnson Design Group. All of those products are well-aged at this point (somewhat like myself) and showing some age-related problems (somewhat like myself). But the DNA-1 circuit board was the main issue, with weakness in the through-hole plating that often created intermittent problems - truly frustrating to service. This is what prompted me to design the new-and-improved main board. Patrick has corrected me about the DNA-1 not being the ONLY problematic board, as we have seen similar failures in the DNA-0.5 in recent years. Still, the DNA-1 main board was the more difficult problem. The end result is the same - all upgrade work on these amps starts with the new circuit board, and this gives these amps a new lease on life.

To be clear, you are correct - working on any of the '90s era products can be difficult because of the risk of heat damage causing de-lamination of the pads and traces. A good technician can minimize the risk and repair the damage, but switching to a new board eliminates these issues.

I'm glad to know that you are enjoying your upgraded DNA-0.5 - do let us know if you have any questions or need anything further.

Steve McCormack

Soix, if we let you down with your DNA-225, I do apologize. I wish we could give it another shot.

@stevemcx You guys recently upgraded my DNA 0.5 and did not let me down in any way whatsoever — not sure who the unhappy DNA 225 is but definitely not me.  I was surprised to learn the input board hasn’t been an issue with the DNA 0.5 and was under the impression that was an issue with virtually all your amps from the 1990s era.  I’m honestly a bit confused here.  

Hello Audiogoners,

I see that I'm late to the party here, but I thought I ought to contribute a few clarifications to this thread.

First of all, despite their advancing age, the only DNA amp we've had trouble with is the DNA-1, and ONLY the DNA-1. This is because of age-related problems with the main circuit board, and ONLY that board. I designed a new replacement board for both the DNA-1 and DNA-0.5 several years ago, and this board is both far better than the original and includes all of the circuit improvements I've developed over the years. For this reason, all upgrade work we do on these amps begins with this new circuit board and builds from there, depending on the client's wishes. This is the only path that makes sense for us, and I hope you can see this.

To be clear, this does not mean that your DNA-1 will fail – just that it becomes more likely as time goes by. But it does mean that we will not accept the risk of modifying those original circuit boards. And by the way, there are no safety issues with any of my equipment, regardless of age.

We have always supported our upgrade customers with any service that might be required, and we continue to do so. However, SMc Audio is not a general repair shop for McCormack Audio equipment. We do custom upgrade work, and we take good care of those clients. This has apparently led to the mistaken belief that we don't offer repair service at all, but this is incorrect. Any of our upgrade clients can depend on having their gear repaired as required. If people have stock McCormack gear that needs repair, I will be as helpful as I can with finding appropriate service and providing information that might be needed. Have your local repair tech get in touch with me and I will do my best to help.

Someone here added this comment: “BTW, To anyone interested. CJ will still service the DNA amps. When I asked them for the schematics I was given a quote for a full recap and a replacement of the input board.” All I can say is “good luck with that.” If you have questions about my equipment or need help with anything, PLEASE give us a call.

For various reasons, there are a few pieces that we no longer offer upgrade work on: The DNA-2, DNA-500, ALD-1 preamp, UDP-1 disc player, and any of the CD players. You are still welcome to call us with questions about any of these.

Regarding the main power switch, bypassing is an upgrade option. We feel this is a small sonic improvement if you don't mind using the AC power cord as your “switch.” It's a detail, but we put a lot of effort into improving the entire AC power path for best performance, and the details add up. In the end, it's up to you.

We do suggest leaving your equipment turned on if this is feasible. This may or may not increase the life span of your gear (tubes aside), but it absolutely gives you the best sonic performance. You get to decide if the addition to your electric bill is worth it.

We have a very good track record of making our clients happy with the work we do for them. Still, there have been those (thankfully rare) occasions when something did not turn out as expected. I will always bend over backwards to figure out the problem and make it right, but this requires some back-and-forth with the client to sort out the issue and come to a solution. This is usually successful, but it's hard to bat 1000 in this game. Soix, if we let you down with your DNA-225, I do apologize. I wish we could give it another shot.

Finally, I hope the takeaway from this would be to please contact us if you have any questions about my equipment or the upgrade process. Just give us a call...

I send my best to all and hope that your new year is off to a good start.

Steve McCormack

SMc Audio

After reading this I'm never going to buy amp that old again! The OP is correct, there are problems with the traces on the McCormack's input board that develope after a given number of years and may not be repairable unless you want to spend a ton of money on upgrades.

@soix 

Thanks.  Like I said, fingers crossed

@pkatsuleas No risk of fire that I’ve heard of.  My amp started taking longer to power on, then worked sporadically and then not at all.  Hopefully yours hangs on for a while 🤞🤞🤞.  I’d suggest not turning it on and off a lot, and if it’s in your system just leave it on 24/7.  

@soix 

I have a 90's .5 that I picked up a few years ago.  One of 3 amps in my rotation.  Thankfully, still working great as of a few months ago until I switched it out for my Hegel. Probably put it back in the system soon to give it a run - fingers crossed!  ;-)

The board failure is a known problem that came to my attention when talking with my repair tech a while back.  I inquired about switching out the old capacitors and doing a refresh, so to speak.  He pretty much advised against it and warned me to not be surprised if it quits on me.  Hopefully, I've got one of the hardier ones!  Like others, I've been considering sending it in for a makeover.  We'll see.

My question is: that you know of, is there any actual risk of fire, other component damage, etc?  Seems like a solder or two failing on a board wouldn't be any real threat.  But, I'm not an expert by any means.  What happened when yours failed?

Thanks     

Wish I had been aware of soil's warning before I bought my used DNA in 2018 from someone on Audio Mart. Upon powering up it took two minutes to move from safety check to operational. When I inquired of the seller about the time, he said that was normal.The two minutes gradually became 3, 4,5 and then stopped becoming operational at all.  When I spoke to Patrick at SMcAudio he indicated the start up safely check should be 10 seconds or so.. 

@mitch2 your last bullet point is very relevant. We have amplifiers in use by customers that are now at their oldest over 40 and at their youngest nearing 30 years of age. We have seen similar issues with an input circuit board that over the years either through misuse, exposure to heat (poor ventilation) or aging is no longer useful or completely gives up the ghost. Unfortunately we sold out of replacements a couple years ago and made a difficult decision not to produce them any longer. It is interesting to note that these days many of the repair requests we receive come from people who have tried to modify or upgrade the amp themselves or through a third party with not so good results, or bought a modified unit unknowingly that was butchered. Unfortunately the cost to repair what was done and return the amp to original spec outweighs the value of the amp itself. There is something to be said for leaving well enough alone and trust that the designer of the unit knew what they were doing.

So, to summarize, 

• It is not unusual for 30+ year old amplifiers to have problems, that in the case of the McCormack Audio amplifiers could be related to boards, capacitors, and/or other things.
• The board issue affects the older DNA-0.5,1,2 series amplifiers and not the newer DNA-125,225 amplifiers.
• McCormack Audio Corporation of Virginia maintains a website but no longer manufactures McCormack Audio amplifiers. 
• Repairs of existing McCormack Audio amplifiers, for the purpose of restoring operational function, can be obtained through Conrad-Johnson Design, Inc., i.e.:  "Service for McCormack products, including model and capacitor upgrades continues to be offered through our sister company, conrad-johnson design, inc."
• If you want your McCormack Audio amplifier upgraded to a higher performance level than when it was new, the most experienced and best-regarded company to perform that work is SMc Audio. 
• You can also have other people do stuff to your amplifier, or you can do stuff to it yourself, if you choose.
• Some people who have done stuff to their own amplifier have screwed it up.

My older DNA-1 was running last I checked but the message wasn't hopeful.

I have talked with Steve perhaps twice over the years with and thought he was a straight shooter when he was helping me for free on small stuff on my amp.

Always hung onto it as a 'bullet-proof' backup amp, but maybe not...  :-(   Still a great amp but almost always sounds too warm on Raidhos, so sitting in storage.

@jetter 

The one amp brought to me was fully functional. It had been back to CJ about 20 years ago for the input board replacement. That was just prior to the current owner purchasing it. It's worked perfectly for him during his time with it. He just wanted it refreshed and upgraded. 

The amp I bought as non-functional was killed by someone that tried to upgrade it. I was told "it smokes when it's turned on"  They broke a couple of traces and with their botched repairs ended up burning up the voltage reg circuitry. The DNA amps are not a good amp for a beginner to try and modify, especially when it comes to the input board.

So no, neither of these amps came to me due to the protection error from the input board problem. But it sounds like the first one I mentioned had been repaired for that issue prior.

​​​​

@kchamber Ah, I see, thanks for the clarification.

Was the repair you performed on the "self destructing" motherboard that was more or less the subject of this OP or something else?

@jetter 

Sorry I should've been more clear on that. What I meant is that CJ is still repairing and restoring amps that are sent to them. I only contacted CJ for schematics and they offered a full rebuild in response. For my own DNA1 amp and another unit brought to me by a local audiophile, I've done the repairs and upgrades myself.

@kchamber Just a bit of curiosity.  You mention in your post above that you did not go the $1,600 route, but that CJ is working on your amps.  Do you mind mentioning what route CJ is taking in updating your amps?