Raul,I must admit,though I don't really know you,I've come to LOVE you.What can I say?You're one of a kind!!BTW--It's funny!My system seems to be "balanced" too!!See,we have more in common!!
On the subject of a visit.You do realize that flying to Mexico(though if I were wealthy I'd do it,as I'd love to meet you)for a listening session,is a BIT of a stretch. |
Do I hear wedding bells?
They could even be really BIG bells, since they both have great LF response!
|
Hey Doug,don't be jealous!You had your shot last winter with your offer to appear(I knew it would not reach fruition,though you're loveable too)at my friend Sid's doorstep,with your ZYX UNIV in tow!It's probably in a vault,when you're not listening. |
Sirspeedy: Somewhere you mention that you weren,t able to get down to Mexico city to listen to Raul,s because you were
saving $ for family vacation. Why not accept Raul,s invitation and do both: You can fly with the family down to Mexico city, you stay for a night and the family conmutes to one of Mexico,s semi- paradise beaches(Cancun, Conzumel, Ixtapa,Acapulco etc..), then you meet them next day. Just an idea, but after being at Raul,s place about 6 weeks ago,i think its worth the effort. |
Cardani,I think ANYTHING audio is a hard sell to the "little lady" these days.I have to keep her happy,on vacations,by shying away from audio related topics.Thanks for the suggestion. |
Dear Doug: You are always welcome. Please let me know if you are ready to do it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
OH,DRATS---I was hoping Raul was independently wealthy,and was willing to fly myself,and family to his private listening compound,on his dime!!Apparently no such luck!!
Hmm!There's always Albert Porter!Think I'll begin to "Butter HIM up"!!Albert,did I ever mention that you have the best system on the Planet??I don't take up much sleeping space,and eat little.Maybe I can offer a couple of freebie tennis lessons,in return!
Best regards! |
DEAR FRIENDS: There is a subject that maybe is not very clear about the integration in a true stereo fashion of powered subwoofers with " full range " speakers like Dynaudio Evidence/Temptations, Dali Megaline, Wilson Maxx2, etc, etc,...
We can think that with a FRS the integration of two powered subwoofers can't do any help to improve the quality sound reproduction. I can tell you that even with FRS the integration of subs can help a lot, let me to give my opinion about::
- That elusive full octave in the low bass is a headache for any one, especially for the loudspeaker manufacturers: they have to choose very carefully the right trade-offs about.
In the other side, we the FRS customers have to choose the right amplification device for really " take-out " and " live " that marvelous low bass reproduction through those FRS: a very hard task, it does not matters the speaker design and the amplifier design.
- There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer:
think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,...
- It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves.
The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific frecuency range.
There is no passive FRS, at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers.
Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any FRS.
- With a subwoofer we not only gain with a lowest harmonic distortion but with a lowest intermodulation distortion too. This means better quality sound reproduction.
- Other advantage is that with the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo fashion to a full range speakers system: the main ( s ) amplifier will be free of those high power consumtion low bass frecuency range: this means too, better quality music sound reproduction. No exception.
- Other advantage with the subs integration is that facilitate the integration of our mains speakers to the room.
Do you think that your FRS audio system sounds great? Wait till you do the subwoofers integration: you will be on music heaven !!!!!!!! Nothing less. Try it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I'm sorry but I'm not sure if the Dali Megaline is a real full range speaker. I think so and that's why I mentioned but I'm not sure.
Anyway, this one could take advante off subs integration.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Here is what I used to do to set subwoofer volume when I had them. Pick a frequency that both speakers are capable of reproducing as low as possible. I use 100 Hz. Reverse the connections on your main speakers and remove their input from the high on the crossover. Set the the crossover at at least that 100 Hz. Run 100 Hz signal to both. At a volume where you would normally listen on the main speakers, now set the volume on the subwoofers to give the lowest volume. You are using the out of phase speakers to counter balance each other for minimum volume at 100 Hz.
Reverse the leads on the mains and put them on the high outputs of the crossover. Enjoy. I usually found a slight reduction for the subwoofers from this setting was perfect. |
Servo systems offer their own set of problems(ex:heavy work load on amp).Room loading,with a careful ear,costs absolutely nothing,and may ameliorate the need for any aftermarket sub systems.
PS--Raul,the Rel line is NOT only for low freq. reinforcement.Why don't you actually listen to one,in a proper set-up?Best regards! |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " Servo systems offer their own set of problems(ex:heavy work load on amp). " +++++
I really don't know what you are talking about.
I have my two Velodyne ( servo controled ) HGS-15 for two years and I never " see"hear " any problem about. Its dedicated amplifiers don't have any problem about.
Who tell you rhis?.
+++++ " .Room loading,with a careful ear,costs absolutely nothing,and may ameliorate the need for any aftermarket sub systems. " +++++
Room loading with a careful ear.. Sorry, what do you mean with this?
+++++ " and may ameliorate the need for any aftermarket sub systems. " +++++
My opinion is that f the room enable and if we don't have a self powered full range speakers: any one needs and after market sub system for an improvement in the quality and complete true music sound reproduction experience at home.
I will take your advice about Rel.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hey Sirspeedy: +++++ " problems(ex:heavy work load on amp). " +++++
I'm still waiting for your answers: where or who tell you that? Which the explanation about ?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Raul,sorry.I was on vacation.Local day trips,due to the hurricane,washing out my original plans.There is extensive info,about the MOST effective(in terms of pitch definition,and true accuracy,something most are really unaware/uninterested in)in the over two hundred page hard covered book,that came with my Ascents.Here the "FORMER" Avalon(under ownership by Charles Hansen,now owner of AYRE)offers extensive,and I mean EXTENSIVE research and scientific facts,backed by computer verification.I would guess that due to Avalon's change to ports,this BOOK is no longer available.Can't blame them,as the bottom line is still sales.For me,they can keep their Diamonds.I'll live very happily with my Ascents/Stentor.
There is a deluge of quite interesting info on the subject of ACCURATE bass response,and how it relates to real world listening.This book is,to me,my bass Bible,as it seems to have ALL competing types of bass systems,extensively covered,and the arguments presented,make real sense!!
Best regards!!Also,thank you so much for the invite.I wish I had the extra time to take you up on it.You are a truly FINE person,even if you need to still learn a bit about bass propogation.That was a joke!! |
Dear Sirspeedy: Time to time, I really appreciate if you can share with us information from that book that you think is really interesting on the whole subs subject.
Tks in adavance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Tbg: Yes, that is the best start way to set the subs volume system.
Tks, regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Just a few comments on various responses here on this most interesting and misunderstood missing link in most peoples audio systems. First I would like to adress a few comments.
1. Most hobbyist use too much bass.
This hobby also happens to be a major form of entertainment for all of us. If "most" like too much bass-ie the "impact" or the "feeling" of live music(more of this in a moment), them what is wrong with that? Yes, overloading the room with more bass obscures the midrange and effects soundstaging. NO arguements, BUT if most do it, there must be something enjoyable about it, and why call it wrong if this is what makes the owners happy. IS this not what these very expensive toys are for?
2. Too much bass is not realistic.
OK, this depends entirely on the music type. BUT, I think most people that are turning the subs up "too loud" are generally not only jazz or classical listeners. These are (with the addition of solo guitar and or bluegrass music)the only live music forms that generally do NOT knock you in the chest with bass when listening as reasonable distances from the array's. Any rock, reggea, country, blues, metal, electronic, pop, and even fusion jazz played live has massive amounts of impact and low frequency energy that is VERY hard to recreate in a home hi fi or ht environment! This generally is very expensive to produce as well. But I am sick of "hi-fiers" saying that live music apparently has no bass. Get out to some "other types" of concerts once in a while! I have heard thousands of hi fi systems, and yes, I work in the industry, BUT I have never heard a hi fi system of any cost that can reproduce the impact and low bass of a live show with 100,000 watts and 300 15" drivers! (Pretty much any amplitheater)
3. The lower you turn the level(or overall gain) of your woofer down, the more bass definition you will hear.
This one is absolutely correct with almost any "under $1500" self powered woofer out there for one reason. They all have limiters in their amps that they are using .These devices- in an effort to save the amp and driver -start cutting the low frequencies entirely-say below 40hz when the amps aproaches clipping point.
If you want low bass at anything above say 100db, it will cost you. If you dont believe this just ask some of the techs in the service areas of some of these speakers manufactures. Almost all affordable subs have these.
OK, I will get off my soapbox and share some experiences that I have learned in room placement.
1. Dont put them in the corner-unless you want +15db at 45-60hz. The closer you get them to the corner the more output and the more hump.
2. Likewise, dont leave it equadistance from the back wall and the side wall-try for a 30% differance in these two distances.
3. Dont put a single woofer in between the mains, this generally is putting the sub directly in a "node area"
4. If you have a self powered woofer that has speaker level inputs and rca ins, use the speaker level inputs. jumper off of the amps outputs with a GOOD set of speaker wire and dont hook up rca's from the pre or at all. This is assuming 2 channel world only, as the better surround pre pro's have very good bass managment that most always improve room acoustics-like notch filters etc....This method of wiring does not effect the load on the amp just FYI...This will help tremendously with the integration with the mains-probably due to phase characteristics...
5.Keep the xover lower than 80hz if using floor speakers that have bass below 50hz. I prefer 55-60 at the top of the range. I read where someone here was taking subs up into the 200hz range. I know that these 10 and 12" speakers have the capability to play these frequencies and higher, look at guitar "heads" (speakers, baffels, and amps all in one box for those who dont know)and they generally have 10 or 12" woofer and no mids nor tweets, but yet are playing the highest notes on a guitar. BUT just because they can doesnt mean that sub woofer designers intended on them to...Generally the amps used in a lot of subs these days are switch mode amps that sound good on bass but horrible elsewhere at there price points. LETS keeps them playing low bass only!
Use two subs if possible for the ultimate. Left and right and as close to the mains as possible to try and time align. I have heard front and rear work well too.
Last, I will just name a few subs that I have heard that I think are truely exceptional for the money. I am a dealer for some and not for others, and I own a Martin Logan Depth, which is FANTASTIC in medium sized rooms. I have mated it with Logan stats, Talons, and now Monitor Audio speakers. This is obvoisly one of my favs. The larger Descent is the same but better in larger rooms.
The Definative "supercube" woofers are quite nice and range from tiny at 9"x9"x9" and $700 to medium sized and "oh my god bass" at $1800! All of these are impressive-
The new Monitor Audio silver 12"/500 watt/sealed is very nice and very musical at $1000.
Another very musical but not very high output in med to large rooms sub is the ERA's 1x10" w/ 500 watt amp-NO Limiters in this ones amp. This one is 1k also.
Lasr, The Velodyne "DD" series subs are the only subs thus far that may get me to sell my Logan.(because of its remote and room calibration) Hmmm...All my favs are servos? Wonder why? :)
Hope this helps get all of your chests pounding and feet moving! After all, is this not about having FUN??? |
Dear Scottshannon: Very interesting post.
+++++ " .Keep the xover lower than 80hz if using floor speakers that have bass below 50hz. I prefer 55-60 at the top of the range. " +++++
My floor speakers are flat down to 20Hz. I'm crossing around 80Hz and I'm very satisfied with this.
I already try other crossover frecuencies and the best ( at least in my room/audio system ) was 80Hz. It is the best overall, mean: best bass, mid bass, midrange and high frecuencies sound reproduction perception.
I try the 80Hz crossover frecuency in other room/audio systems and; by coincedence, works very well.
I always recomended to start the subs integration with a crossover frecuency at 80Hz and move from there depending of each room/audio system.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
>>Who knew that bass players don't move across the stage<<
I loved that quote.
Gosh, I hope that it's not an upright acoustic bass, or if it is, that it's at least on rollers.
If it's an electric bass, I sure hope that I don't have to remind that the sound is not coming from the instrument as much as it's coming from the GIANT speakers situated on or next to the stage....and they SURE as heck aren't dancing around with the bass player. Man Oh man. |
The Rel Storm 3 sub bass unit compliments my system nicely. It has been necessary to set the crossover point at 27 hertz to achieve what I perceive to be optimal sound. The topic of directionality in the context of the question of one versus two subwoofers has been discussed here at length. Despite using a single sub, localizing the deep bass to the corner in which the sub sits has not been an issue in my system, at least for me. |
The Outlaw LFM-1, give the "oh my god" bass, for the sinfully low price of $600, biggest bang for the buck sub, i've ever found. |
Dear Truthseeker: I agree.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Mdhhoover: I can see that you are using your subwoofer for bass reinforcement and this is one of the several benefits of the subwoofer integration in an audio system. There are other benefits that could help more to que quality sound reproduction that only bass reinforcement. Please take your time and read this link:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1117893153&openflup&27&4#27
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Rauliruegas:
As a matter of fact, I HAVE been contemplating two subs with a higher crossover point, but haven't worked out the logistics of where to put the second sub. Plus, setting the subwoofer crossover to a higher frequency would seem to mandate the use of high quality capicitors to block the lower end output of the mains from the same point on downward, both to avoid midbass boominess from frequency response overlap and to free up the midbass driver of the mains (which in my case are the Intuitive Design Summits) to function as more of a pure midrange driver. This would likely obviate the "Doppler issues" that Dale Pitcher had referred to, but which I honestly haven't been able to hear. Nevertheless, maybe their already outstanding midrange could be made even better by doing so.
Anyway, from a practical (and financial) standpoint, for now at least, the single Rel in the corner works surprisingly well (for me). I did, however, purchase the Summits with the possibility of upgrading to two subwoofers in mind. Part of the pleasant surprise with the Summits was that, for now at least, that doesn't seem like a pressing need, even though they're two ways that go quite low.
Bill |
Dear Readster: I never had the opportunity to hear the LFM-1 but I think that that subwoofer could integrate better in a home theather system than in a high-end true stereo system.
As a fact that sub goes down " only " to 25Hz and their electronic quality seems to me a little short of a high-end product.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: I found a Stereophile article that confirm what I already posted about the " must " : two subs in a true stereo way. here it is:
" A simple advantage is that two subs operating in-phase less than one wavelength apart wil generate 6dB more output than a single sub....................If you have two sources arranged in the room so that the left and right woofers are equally far for their respective side walls and equally far from the common wall behind them, most of the standing wave patterns remain the same......the two woofers simply reinforce each other's standing-wave patterns........So while such symetry is desirable at middle and high frequencies for the sake of stereo soundstaging, it may penalize you at low frequencies. This situation change if the bass in the recording is not monophonic. When an orchestra or pipe organ is recorded with widely spaced mikes, bass waves arrive at sligtly different times at each mike. If the bass is not blended into mono for disc mastering, these timing differences will be preserved in playback. The effect is akin to moving one woofer closer or farther away, destroying their simmetry so that the woofers no longer reinforce each other standing-wave patterns.. ......You can achieve a similar result with mono bass by using two subwoofers but placing them asymmetrically.... The bass waves from the two woofers arrive at each boundary surface at different time, producing partial cancellation of the standing waves. These wave interference effects tend to diminish the severity of the peaks and nulls, yielding a more uniform distribution of bass energy within the room. "
Fortunatelly, in my system, I have my two subwoofers in asimmetrically way and I can confirm exactly this very " old " Stereophile statement.
As always I posted: you have to try it: is a " must " to have. Period.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Hi Raul,
Can you guess if the side-firing woofers used by Coincident in their larger speakers would produce a similar effect? Their two largest models go down to 24 and 20 Hz, quite a bit lower than my B&W's. (As you know, we really have no space for subs located as you recommend.)
Regards,
Doug
|
Dear Doug: The asimmetry is with respect to the room boundaries ( side/behind walls ) not if the woofers are side firing.
In my case my subs are placed side firing but the right side sub has no simmetry with the left side: the right one is in an almost open boundary.
Anyway, I prefer the subs in side firing position over the front firing. The Coincident are very good speakers and like in the NHT speakers the Coincident has benefits from their side woofers firing, if one of your room side L/R is asimmetric against the other then you are done !!!.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Thanks Raul.
Our room is also asymmetric in the L/R direction. The L speaker is a little over 1m from its side wall, the R speaker is over 2m. The furniture in each direction is different too, which should also help break up standing waves.
Both speakers are open to another room behind them. They have nearly 5m behind them and at least 3m in front, plenty of room to breath. I'm sure this contributes to our excellent soundstage depth, imaging and air.
It sounds like side-firing woofers could work very well in this setup, though we'd have to have to have them facing out. (Facing in would aim a woofer directly at the TT and amplifiers, not a good idea!)
Many thanks again for this excellent thread,
Doug |
Dear Doug: " +++++(Facing in would aim a woofer directly at the TT and amplifiers, not a good idea!) " +++++
Well, it don't seems like a good idea but in my system both subs are facing my three TT's and I never detect any problem cause by the sub's. You have to try, I'm almost sure that you will not find problems about.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Wow. Like you say, sometimes things that make no sense work fine while other things that make good sense fail. Try everything!
|
This may not mean much but I thought I'd share abit along this theme about 'tables and LF speakers. My old Aerial 10t's are rear ported and just drip with chest pounding bass, even when pulled out 6 to 7 feet from the back wall. I once used a decibel meter and found that if I pulled the equipment stand out at least 18 inches from the back wall that the LF build up dropped off dramatically. Also, it was best to avoid the area equal distance between the speakers along the back wall. |
Dear friends: For almost two years I was running the crossover frequency between my main speakers and the Velodyne's at 85-90 Hz.
It sound very good and let free the main speakers for the low bass reproduction responsibility lowering the Intermodulation Distortions level. The issue with that crossover frequency is that the subwoofers are reproducing frequencies that are not only out of its best frequency range of perfect quality reproduction but that those " high frequencies " are recognizable coming from the subs and " interfering " with the overall quality sound reproduction.
Two weeks ago I begin trying other croosover frequencies and ( today with my ystem ) I find that 60 Hz ( I try down to 40 Hz )is the way to go. This crossover frequency change makes wonders on the quality sound reproduction of my system, specially on transparency ( see through ), detail, immediacy and overall soundstage. Through this change my system is a " new system ", a lot better quality sound reproduction audio system, I'm feeling nearer to the recording, nearer to the live event with an increase of music emotions.
Well, like any of you I'm always looking for a better way to go, fortunately ( till today ) almost always exist that better " road ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Rauliruegas...My experiments with SW crossover frequency has led me to the conclusion that, at least for my speakers, there is no one "correct" frequency. My main speakers, MG1.6, are good to 40 Hz, and my custom SW systems are good to 400 Hz, so I am free to vary over quite a range. The best X/O frequency depends on the type of music, and how loud I play it. Classical chamber music calls for 40 Hz and Organ music sounds best at 200-300 Hz. These are extreme examples, most of the time I run around 80 Hz. My point is that the crossover electronics should permit the frequency to be easily changed, and one should not be afraid to adjust it as freely as the volume control. |
Raul,and other interested folks,if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point.
EX:if the main speaker(my Ascents for example)are giving in room response to about 35hz,experiment with the sub crossover point just below that.Maybe coming in at around thirty hz.This MUST be played around with,as the room/placement will affect sound.
I believe the lower sub setting is definitely BEST here,because even though we cannot hear the main speaker low cut off point in exact terms,it still has some output beneath our perceptions(due to room loading).So we do not want the sub to overlap this,or you get a thickening of sound.Also,keep the gain setting LOW!!Too many sub owners try to go overboard with bass volume.You want the stage to open up,releasing depth and a wealth of high freq detail.NOT bloat!This is masked if the sub is not placed in room,and set PERFECT!It can take time,but is well worth the effort.
Many current sub models can be integrated very well to almost any decent speaker.It is a far better way to get a nice speaker upgrade(financially),rather than selling the main speaker,taking a huge loss,and buying new.Providing one has a very good main speaker.One reason why I have kept my "incredible"(should be spelled with capital letters)Avalon Ascent MK-II's.Just add a good sub,and these Gems still amaze,with a huge stage presentation,and detail in abundance.The business of diamond driver/Berrylium technology,though fine, kind of loses meaning when these speakers are given todays best supporting componentry! Just my two cents worth.
Hope this makes sense.It works,for me.
Best! |
In the golden age of vinyl playback (1965-1985 or so), subwoofers were practically unknown. And yet, my LP playback system uses little Mirage Omnisat satellites and a matching LF-150 150w 10" sub. These sats have the advantages of being linear down to 70 Hz and a power handling rating of 175w each. I think using a small, musical sub is the best-kept secret in vinyl playback.
First of all, we're all familiar with the advantages of mini-monitors and small speakers--the small front baffle makes for great imaging and the small size avoids most of the cabinet resonances that plague larger speakers. Second, a good sat/sub setup makes it easier to iron out anomalies that often plague vinyl playback.
My turntable setup seemed to increase the sensitivity to a 100 Hz in-room hump. All I had to do is lower the adjustable crossover point on the sub and it was fixed.
In system tuning, optimizing full-range speakers (let alone minimonitors) for imaging *and* bass response can drive you crazy. A sub enables you to tune for both. It also helps to compensate for mastering deficiencies. Some LPs have thin bass; I can goose it with the sub. OTOH, some LPs have rumble. I can dial that out with a sub as well, without affecting the response curve where the music is.
Matching a sub to a room and to satellites can be difficult too, but I've so far successfully optimized three different Mirage subs to three entirely different rooms and rigs. Their speed and natural musicality combined with adjustable crossover range, phase, and volume control make it relatively easy. |
I not only do not need a sub for music but I removed it from home theater, the VMPS with outboard cross-over and a high power Caver amp with gain control for the woofers is all I need, Organ notes no problem. They claim usable bass down 10db at 16hz, I dunno what I am getting in my room but whatever it is...........its all I need. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++ " My point is that the crossover electronics should permit the frequency to be easily changed, and one should not be afraid to adjust it as freely as the volume control. " +++++
I respect your point of view and certainly any one is free to make about what any one think is better for achieve the quality performance that are nearest to its music sound reproduction priorities.
My point of view is a " little " different from yours: I don't like to use the subwoofers ( crossover/volume ) like a continnuous " bass equalizer ". My first target is to obtain the best quality sound reproduction from my main speakers lowering the Intermodulation Distortion through let it them free to reproduce frequencies from 60Hz and lower and my second target is to obtain a better quality bass performance through a dedicated/specialty audio item ( subwoofer ) and to obtain ( too ) a lower bass response.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Rauliruegas...At first I took the same approach as you, (and everyone else it seems) and I tried to find the a frequency for "best quality sound reproduction". I never seemed to get it right. It took me many years to realize why: there is no one best X/O frequency, at least for my system. It depends on the kind of music being played. I do not use the X/O frequency as a tone control. I have my system tweeked up so that there is no audible or measurable (RTA) change when I sweep the frequency. But with music that has heavy LF the six 12" and 15" subwoofer cones have the "punch" that folks say is missing in Maggies. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++" there is no one best X/O frequency, at least for my system. " +++++
This is the name of the game. In my system it is an audible change when I sweep the frequency.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Rauliruegas...I forgot to mention that when I sweep the X/O frequency I am listening to and observing a white noise signal. Music is another story, which, of course, is the reason that I vary the frequency. My ability to sweep the X/O frequency without audible effect may not be usual, but my claim is that it indicates that my custom designed SW systems are well matched to the MG1.6 speakers. |
Dear Eldartford: +++++ " My ability to sweep the X/O frequency without audible effect may not be usual " +++++
Certainly it is not .
In your Organ example ( crossover 200-300 Hz )and in your very well designed system I'm still worried about Intermodulation Distortions that with that high crossover frequency and with organ music it will be really high IMD: the organ music could go down to 16Hz or lower and normally in that kind of music your sub's are trying to reproduce frequencies in the very low bass: 16Hz to 40Hz and at the same time you are asking to reproduce in clean manner frequencies ( very critical audio range ) between 100Hz and 300Hz+, well this is what I'm concern of IMD.
Anyway at the " end of the day " you are crossing over 80Hz that makes more sense to me.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++
Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.
My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.
I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).
The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies.
I respect your approach but I don't like it because it can't give me a whole better quality performance in help to the music reproduction, instead my approach give us all. Through this thread are explained almost all you have to know about, please re-read it.
As I told you it does not matters what you and me think about, IMHO you must try that approach to make the " discovery " of your whole audio life.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Johnnyb53: +++++ " In system tuning, optimizing full-range speakers (let alone minimonitors) for imaging *and* bass response can drive you crazy. A sub enables you to tune for both. " +++++
This is one of the real subs integration advantages.
Regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Chad: +++++ " , the VMPS with outboard cross-over and a high power Caver amp with gain control for the woofers is all I need, Organ notes no problem. They claim usable bass down 10db at 16hz, " +++++
Well, this seems to me like you already have a subwoofer through your VMPS speakers, so you don't need an additional one. Btw, which croosover frequency do you choose?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: Almost always we can to be rewarding our time/efforts trying to improve our audio system setting.
Yesterday I wonder what could be happen if I set up my subwoofers a little higher from the floor and this is what I do, four inches total height ( maybe in the future I could try a higher one but for the moment I'm very satisfied. )
The change was/is remarkable: the bass is more tight and with better definition( pitch ), less " bass noise/garbage ", better midbass and clearer/clean midrange/high frequencies response. Awesome !!!!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Rauliruegas...Not surprising to me. My subwoofer systems, each consisting of a 15" and a 12" driver, has the centerpoint of the two drivers about 40 inches above the floor. This puts them near centered behind my Maggies, which was a design objective.
By the way, I also elevated the Maggies by about six inches, and that helped too.
I have always been a fan of elevating speakers, including suspending them from the ceiling if the wife permits. (They usually don't). |
I stopped suspending my speakers when I bought the 350 pound per side Duntech Sovereigns. |
The reason for the wider soundstage is that the subwoofer has its own amp and therefore the burden of those power gobbling lows are taken from the regular amp which can perform better. Subs are particularly important in video presentations, because there is lots of very low stuff on DVD hat have nothing to do with music, but which taxes regular amps and woofers |
Bruce Edgar recommends lifting his mid-bass horns a few inches off the floor. My implementation of his mid-bass weight so much I had to put them on casters so by default they are lifted almost 3". The bass horn is also lifted ~3" only because the casters make it easier to adjust room location.
I've not heard anything as tuneful as bass done by horns. YMMV. |
