Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Dear Eldartford: Please remember that those posts were posted years ago and in one of them you stated that 80Hz crossover frequency.
Thank you for the up-date.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Gregadd: Its curious t, the Harman International research on subs that is named in your link is the same that I posted ( I'm only take a high-light on a 30+ white paer pages. If I remember that reference was posted by Scott. ).

Thank you Gregadd.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Rauliruegas...No doubt that I said that in the past. But I get smarter every year! Don't we all. It was really a great relief that I don't need to worry about finding the "golden" X/O frequency.

Dear Eldartford: +++++ " But I get smarter every year! " +++++

this was my first healthy laugh today, thank you for that !.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Thanks for the info Raul....and you have to know that I have always considered you a "friend"!

Best

Dear Sirspeedy: Yes, I know that: thank you!.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

"Dear Gregadd: Its curious t, the Harman International research on subs that is named in your link is the same that I posted ( I'm only take a high-light on a 30+ white paer pages. If I remember that reference was posted by Scott. )."

Raul. Um...actually I stole the link form Oneobgyn in the setup of his JL Audio Gotham subs.

I guess great minds think alike. My experience is that two subs are better. I lived with one sub and then two. Two subs are better. I don't know why.

Dear Gregadd: That studio/research ( very extensive and professional. ) treat exactly the why´s about more than one subwoofer.

Kevin Voeks, an almost all time speaker designer and today behind Revel speakers designs, was one of the members in that Harman Int. subwoofer subject.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I just picked up a REL Stentor III from my audiobuddy Phaser. The sub is BIG - a lot bigger than I thought it would be.
Boy, does it make a difference to the sound. I have only plonked them between the speakers and amps - mainly due to the fact Phaser cut the wires down to 2.5 m and he indicated that the sub in the middle was good in maintaining stereo seperation etc.

Sirspeedy -I see we now have the same sub. - any hints on how to get the best out of the Stentor's.

Personally I don't know what a 2nd sub would add anything musical to the equation as the one creates huge bass as it is.

Raul I maybe reading your posts incorrectly, however I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong :-)

- Why did you buy speakers that go down to 22hz, then cut any output under 48hz to run two subs down past that output?.
To me it could seem like a waste of money on full range speakers if you are not using the lower frequencies and may change the balance of the speakers to how they were originally designed.

cheers

Downunder,drop me a line,and we'll talk.

Best.

Dear Dowunder: I could say the same from your speakers where its woofer works from 450 Hz down to 22 Hz, a very wide frequency range full of IMD and HD.
Please read very carefully what was posted about in this thread:

+++++ " this one was an answer to what you posted ( Downunder the Sirspeedy post is similar of what you are asking ):

+++++ " if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point. " +++++

Well this is one approach that mainly goes to have a lower bass response: it is the REL approach and other subwoofer manufacturers but not all of them.

My approach is different from yours, mine goes to obtain ( first place ) a better quality performance in my main speakers and in second place to achieve a better quality bass performance that could goes lower too.

I use two subwoofers in true stereo way to achieve those targets, the first one ( that you can't achieve with your approach of one subwoofer. ) is obtained lowering the Intermodulation Distortion ( main speakers ), this means to stop to ask to the woofers ( main speakers ) the simultaneous reproduction of frequencies between 20Hz and 200HZ or higher( if yours goes flat to 30Hz then you still have some distorted response at 20Hz that makes higher the IMD subject/problem ), this means ( again ) that we have to choose a crossover frequency higher than what the main woofers are handled : in my case 60 Hz and in Eldartford 80Hz.
In this manner the main woofers will be free/less stressed of the low bass reproduction working from 60Hz-80Hz up and lowering ( cleaning in deep ) the IMD: this fact makes a huge improvement ( in any speaker including yours ) in the quality sound reproduction of the main speakers ( it is not matters what you think about or what I think about, lowering the IMD/HD always improves the quality performance of " that " driver, physics laws. ).

The second advantage on this approach is that now the low bass frequency response not only goes down through the subwoofers but with a better quality bass performance due that those bass frequencies will be reproduced for " drivers /amplifiers " that were designed specific for those kind of bass frequencies. " +++++

+++++ " Where the subs can help us ? :

Intermodulation Distortions ( harmonic distortions ): Almost any three ways speaker ( all two ways/one way ) has it's crossover frecuency ( low driver ) between 150Hz and 450Hz. I can assume that any of ours speakers system goes down flat ( at least ) between 60Hz to 20Hz.

What does that means ?, well that a single driver has to reproduce frequencies/harmonics from 20Hz/60Hz to 150Hz/450Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a great intermodulation distortions that put it's " color " on the sound reproduction.

You have to imagine that that single woofer/driver has to reproduce, at the same " time ", a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency ( Downunder in your case from 20 to 450Hz ): here is where exist that IM/HD that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC.

What happen when that low driver is free from those frecuencies ? ( main speakers: monitors or full range, it does not matters. My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz:

SUDDENLY the " lights are on ", your music/audio " life " its born: the mid bass is clean, the midrange is clean, the highs are clean: high resolution every where ( the distortions are almost gone ), and now you can really hear for the first time the MUSIC through your home stereo audio system: what a pleasure!!!!!. " +++++

Mark the second subwoofer is not to obtain more bass but to even and smooth the room bass response:

08-02-05: Skushino
After adding a second sub to my system, there was smoother bass response. Again, this isn't about louder or stronger bass, in fact, I was seeking lower, smoother bass. Ironic that the path to this goal was accomplished by adding a sub! My girlfriend is a great listener and concurred that bass was better quality. Since I returned the second sub (on loan from my neighbor), I miss the performance " +++++

this quote comes from a in deep research made by Harman International Group:

+++++ " Using very large numbers of subwoofers would result in
cancellation of room modes. For practical numbers of
subwoofers, there appears to be no obvious correlation.

Two subwoofers, at opposing
wall midpoints, performs very nearly as well as four at the
midpoints and gives a much better LF factor

Can a sufficiently large number of
subwoofers cancel out all room
modes?
Theoretically yes

-------------------------------------

this one was and answer to Syrspeedy:

+++++ " I don't know at which frecuency you are cutting your REL. But, for example, if the crossover is at 27-30Hz and if the low pass filter is of second to fourth order then your REL is reproducing frecuencies as high like 80-100Hz that are interfering with the same frecuency range of your main speakers " +++++

this quote comes from a friend ( Agon ) that send to me for this thread. The research/investigation or whatever were made by: Audio Perfectionist Journal and Vandersteen:

+++++ " Suppose I told you that you could add two
components to your system that would reduce
intermodulation distortion in the midrange by a
factor of two or more, dramatically improve the
resolution of midrange and high frequency detail,
double or triple the dynamic range capability of
your system without changing your existing
amplifier or speakers and improve imaging more
than you can imagine. You would probably be
interested, right? But wait, there’s more.
These same components would allow the
amplifier to maintain tighter control over the
speakers in the mid-bass and lower midrange.
They could extend bass response to infrasonic frequencies
while lowering bass distortion and
improving the system’s ability to accurately convey
the rhythm and pace of music. And these
same components could virtually eliminate the
uneven response at lower frequencies caused by
room standing waves.
Does all that sound too good to be true?
Are you concerned about the possible cost of all
this improvement? If all this is so easily achievable,
are you wondering why you’ve never heard
about it before?
Let me assure you that all these sonic
improvements can be yours and I’ve been conservative
in my estimates of the level of audible
improvement you’ll get.
and goes on. Conclusion: two subwoofers!!! +++++ "

this is another quote on the subject:

+++++ " - There is no single external / stand alone amplifier that can work or do a better job than a low bass dedicated amplifier like the one that comes with a powered subwoofer:

think that this dedicated bass amplifier was designed/tailored to match every single woofer parameter: impedance, frecuency response range, damping, power, distortion, etc, etc,...

- It is not only this dedicated amplifier what makes this subwoofer approach/technology ideal to handle the low bass octaves.
The driver/woofer is designed/tailored too for that specific frecuency range.
There is no passive FRS ( full range speaker ), at any price with any amplifier, that could beat a self powered subwoofers in that frecuency range. When you have and hear the subs on your system you never can live again with out those subwoofers.

Here we have to remember other important issue: the best subwoofers are SERVO CONTROLLED, this characteristic give to the subwoofer a heavy advantage over a FRS about the low distortion that a well designed subwoofer had against a higher distortions on any FRS.

- With a subwoofer we not only gain with a lowest harmonic distortion but with a lowest intermodulation distortion too. This means better quality sound reproduction.

- Other advantage is that with the integration of two subwoofers in a true stereo fashion to a full range speakers system: the main ( s ) amplifier will be free of those high power consumtion low bass frecuency range: this means too, better quality music sound reproduction. No exception.

- Other advantage with the subs integration is that facilitate the integration of our mains speakers to the room.

Do you think that your FRS audio system sounds great? Wait till you do the subwoofers integration: you will be on music heaven !!!!!!!! Nothing less. Try it. " +++++

Downunder, we have/must understand the whole benefits that can/could give us the integration of two subwoofers in true stereo fashion in our audio system.

As satisfied like you are with one subwoofer when you add the second one you can't believe its paramount importance and how can/could you were missing ( all that time the enjoyment. ) that very high quality sound reproduction performance !!!!!! , no doubt about: you will be highly surprised about and extremely happy too !!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Very interesting Raul

I do not for one minute pretend to know much about subwoofers as I have only had the sub for less than one day and bought it quickly. REL certainly has a very good name in 2 chanel music thou.
But as with anything I am willing to learn and make my own choices.

How do you cut off the output of your main speakers at 60hz??
Don't your amps run the speakers full range down to 22hz??

cheers

Hi Raul, You had mentioned that you would be interested in posting a picture of your in room freq response. You said in your last post "My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz and I have benefits with the subwoofers integration to my system ), below 60Hz:"

I started a thread, in the Speakers section called "In Room Response". Where you can post a picture of your measurement. Several people myself included have allready done so. It would be great to see yours! I am using the FREE program: Room EQ Wizard available on the Home Theater Shack website. I look forward to your contribution to the thread.
Bob

Dear Downunder: In my case I make the high-pass crossover directly in the amplifiers ( with a teflon cap ), around 50hz and the low-pass in de subwoofer crossover. In this way the signal that goes to the main speakers is almost un-touched.

Now, normaly both crossover frequencies set up through the dedicated subwoofer crossover: low-pass and high-pass. Normaly too almost all the subwoofers have this kind of crossover facilities but not on the REL ones because its approach is totally different. So you need to do it through an external electronic crossover.

Downunder, there are some misunderstood ( including the REL people and its customers. ) about the real subwoofer advantages and how can/could to improve the quality sound in our audio systems. The low bass improvement ( in quality and quantiy. ) is only one of its advantages and IMHO not the most important.
The main advantage, in my opinion, of two subwoofers in almost any audio system is to achieve a lower ( lot lower ) IMD/HD of your main speakers and when this happen it is an amazing experience that you can't live with out it.

Like everything in audio the in deep know-how on some critical subjects can/could make the difference between a very good performance and an extraordinary/outstanding one: well two subwoofers help you to achieve this!!!

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: I forgot: +++++ " Don't your amps run the speakers full range down to 22hz?? " +++++

No, my amplifiers/speakers run/work from 50hz up and the self powered subwoofers from 60hz down.

Regards and enjoy the usic.
Raul.

Raul

Are you seriously saying that the $50 digital amps inside the paradim subs offer better quality sound to your Levinson 20.6 amps running your full range speakers between say even 30 and 50hz???
Lets not even talk about going lower where true subwoofers should be working.

Raul,you are correct in about 50% of your arguement.But about 100%(almost)of the time,when speaking about analog subjects -:) ...First of all you simply cannot make the statement that in ALL cases two subs are the way to go,as you say it is "simply physics".Sorry,not so!And,in fact,the laws of physics CAN break down,under certain circumstances, current science believes.Also,the "Harmon" website discussion is concerning even bass response from multiple listening seats,like a movie theater.Most audiophiles have a far narrower sweet spot,as our rooms are not theater sized.
Speaking of theory,I believe your non-bending arguement is based on this(theory,not actual experience).I don't mean to be insulting,and wish to have a debate,without getting too hot under the collar.Just god fun,so here goes.....

Firstly,I have owned,in two separate dedicated rooms,the BIG dual bass systems you feel are the ONLY way to go!From my experience,your arguement ONLY has merit under certain conditions.One would be if the crossover point approaches or goes into the "mid bass".In your set-up,from what I can see,you have little ability to move the main speaker(not subs) into the listening room.So,if your ADS speakers actually go as low as you claim,the corner placement would kill bass definition.THAT itself is probably good physics,but I'll settle for my own assumption here....So,it is most likely a better scenario,for you,to cut of the main speaker,and use your subs for the remaining "non boomy" bass(due to not ideal main speaker placement).A good alternative!As I see it,your subs are out further into room,so if this is actually the case,I understand your assertion,but you do nobody total justice by hammering away,about everyone HAVING to have two subs,as ideal always!Not so!
If someone,like Downunder for example,has a superb "main speaker"(the Strads fit this),which plummet far enough in depth,why should it's design be compromised,if it is going low and with good definition.He makes a good point about affecting the design's specific design goal sound.Some of us(myself included)just wish to "tickle the bottom octave" in order to lend a bit more weight to an "exsisting superb speaker".The ROOM,and "room/specific" set-up will absolutely impact whether two subs are "needed",not to mention the owner of that system!Also,in my case,I would FAR prefer my main speaker's "sealed" box design's bass definition,over the sub's ported pitch definition,at the frequencies you adhere to!
Also,sorry,but LOW bass is NOT stereo,and if the freq is "low enough",it should NOT seem to be coming from a specific area.If it "is",you don't have it set up right!

I have had a previous dedicated "single sub set up",and two different BIG Infinity four tower designs,so I know,from actual experience what I am talking about.Those designs specifically have the ability to crossover as far up as 120 hz,so the "two sub option" is a MUST in that configuration,for best results.
In the case of someone like Downunder(I must assume),or myself(now)the MAIN speaker is SO well implemented,in the room,giving enough good low freq response,that we simply want to "goose the extreme bottom octave" a bit.What don't you understand about this?...One very good sub(sorry if you don't like REL,btw)can easily do the trick.In "this scenario",two is NOT mandatory or necessary.
Personally,my current configuration has more believeable low freq,than "any" of my previous set-ups,so I can confidently save the "few" posters, who actually care about this,some money.You don't HAVE to go with two,based on the room/set-up in specific use.Period!

Raul you are also incorrect in stating "servo bass" is the best.These types of systems(I've owned one or two)do not provide miracle cures.They are an alternative design concept,with their own advantages,and disadvantages.
The main benefit,is for a given freq response,a smaller enclosure can be used,than would otherwise be needed.This comes at the expense of requiring greater amplifier power,that is,lower effective efficiency in the woofer.
This can be a valid design choice in some situations,although in many cases cone "excursion" or "thermal" dissapation(there's your distortion,again) becomes the "limiting" factor in achieving extended bass response.

The servo controlled system has the ability to correct for non-linearities in the low freq driver itself.BUT,the "superior" approach is to employ a well designed driver that needs no correction,just as a well designed amp can be built using no negative feedback.

Concerning transient response,there is NO advantage to using other alternative systems compared to a non equalized system.This is because the transient response merely describes an alternative view of the freq response.So,by utilizing a servo controller adjusted to obtain the "perfect" transient response of a sealed enclosure with a Q factor of .5(which my current main speaker has,btw),the freq response will necessarily be the same for "both" systems,regardless of how that freq response was attained!
Although electronic methods allow for easier adjustment of the system parameters,most systems are designed for impressive anechoic freq response at the expense of "accurate" transient response!
The vast majority of bass systems(even in main speakers)store resonant bass energy.Many folks like this sound,and it is one reason why ported designs are so popular,but the ONLY way to have "accurate transient bass response" is from a sealed design,with a Q of .5!The "original" Avalons ALL adhered to this(unlike the new designs,which are just fine,but designed to "sell"),as do the current Magico designs.What these designs seek,is the absence of "stored resonant energy" particularly in the bass frequencies.To have a ported sub design substituting for "some" mid bass frequencies,that a good main speaker already has is tantamount to "throwing out the baby with the bath water".My current sealed Ascents would positively "kill" any sub,in bass definition.Unless one likes Heavy Metal as a staple for good audio.
So,if one wanted the best subwoofer,it would have to be a sealed box,but it would also have to be BIG!That is why we see so few.

I have a close friend who got the superb Magico Minis six months ago.He has low bass down to a recently measured 31 hz,in his room.Yet,some of my other audio pals are adamant that he attempt to get deeper bass.Personally I think his low freq performance is absolutely stellar and I have heard it shake his room beautifully,but the other guys want more deep bass(one of them owns BIG Pipe Dreams using two separate 18 inch subs...which suck,IMO)...If "any" sub were employed in that set-up(my friend's Magicos),to come in as high as you,Raul,have mentioned is almost universally necessary(I think you stated up to 200 hz!!) for the business of IM distortion etc,I can guarantee the "magic" of that speaker would be gone!!!No sub can match the speed,and definition of that mid/bass driver from what I have heard from that speaker.
So,we all look for something,maybe a little different from oneanother.One reason to adhere to the "logic" of there is always "more than one way to skin a cat".A popular expression,from where I come from.
Best.

Speedy

I think you have hit the nail on the head re Raul !!.

" In your set-up,from what I can see,you have little ability to move the main speaker(not subs) into the listening room.So,if your ADS speakers actually go as low as you claim,the corner placement would kill bass definition.THAT itself is probably good physics,but I'll settle for my own assumption here....So,it is most likely a better scenario,for you,to cut of the main speaker,and use your subs for the remaining "non boomy" bass(due to not ideal main speaker placement)."

Looking at Raul's room and speaker placement, running his ADS speakers full range would be a BOOM box. Raul is no doubt getting better sound using the 2 subwoofers way out into the room. Not your classic sub positioning. Clealy this cleans up his boomy bass he has running the SDS speakers in the corners.

Raul, you need a bigger room to do your ADS speakers and Levinson amps justice and move the speakers out from the corners.

BTW, how do you make an amp only produce sound from 50hz upwards like you do with your Levinsons??

enjoy the music

I think Sirspeddy proves the point. A mini monitor is going down to 31hz(I'd like to see that frequency curve.i.e. how many db down?)? That little woofer/midrange driver must be "exhausted."
Indeed the coloration it would cast on the rest of its duties will be significant.
I remember when I ran my ML CLS full range. That big panel could bee seen moving back and forth trying to reduce bass notes. With subs it barely can be seen moving at all.

As for defying the laws of physics. Not yet. At least not in my living room.

Dear Sirspeedy: It is incredible ( that after several explanations and posts from everywhere/one. ) that you can't understand the whole subwoofer subject ( advantages ), you are talking ( still ) about bass and that is not ( IMHO ) the most important subs priority but to lower the IMD/HD.

I already posted ( several times ) that that was my approach: first to achieve lower IMD/HD ( main speakers ) ( Physics laws ), then better quality bass, then lower bass frequency response and better working on the main amplifiers. I repeat till today you don't understand this, not only that but you never try it in your today system how can you affirm nothing about.

I don't add my two Velodynes two obtain more bass because my ADS are very good here ( and for your information and for Dowunder too: sounds very good with out subs, with no boomy bass. Both of you are totally " crazy " about because you never hear/heard this system: your assumptions are totally wrong. Fortunatelly I have a great room ( I'm really lucky about. I appreciate that you stop to take wrong assumptions on my system. ) I add the subs for its whole advantages.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: With all respect, if Sirspeedy till today don't understand or can't or don't want it the whole subs subject: like you say: " I do not for one minute pretend to know much about subwoofers as I have only had the sub for less than one day and bought it quickly. "++++

you IMHO are not wrong but totally loss/stay. You have to re-read many of what other people alredy post here ( including some links ) to learn about and through that learning excersice you could understand about and affirm " things " on the subject with know-how not before.

Of course, like this time, you can follow other person way of think but I think that you can do it a favor to your self if you really understand the subject of what you are trying to talk and trying to " understand ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Downunder: +++++ " justice and move the speakers out from the corners. " +++++

who told you that my speakers are at the corners?, please read on my virtual system about ( room measures/shape and speaker position ).

This is the trouble when a person follow other one with out know-how ( read ). Again please read carefully before you write something with out sense.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: What Gregadd post ( thank you ) could help you:

+++++ " I remember when I ran my ML CLS full range. That big panel could bee seen moving back and forth trying to reduce bass notes. With subs it barely can be seen moving at all " +++++

this should be enough to understand the whole subs subject ( Physics laws ) or at least to understand what means IMD/HD and the paramount advantage to lower those IMD/HD: that is a problem with your speakers and the Downunder ones.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Sirspeedy: +++++ " To have a ported sub design substituting for "some" mid bass frequencies,that a good main speaker already has is tantamount to " +++++

maybe I'm wrong but I remember that your REL is a ported design, maybe your choose was not so good.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: I'm sorry to go on but your post is full of misunderstodd about IMD/HD: one of the worst " stages " for a high IMD are the two ways speakers where the " low " driver has to work from around 2K-3kHz down to 30-40 Hz !!!!

+++++ " Raul you are also incorrect in stating "servo bass" is the best.These types of systems(I've owned one or two)do not provide miracle cures.They are an alternative design concept,with their own advantages,and disadvantages. " +++++

I never talk of any miracle cures ( where is the illness? ).
Take a look of the velodyne servo design:

+++++ " Velodyne’s patented High Gain Servo technology
accelerometer that delivers a digital representation of
cone movement that is checked up to 15,800 times
per second ... " +++++

not bad eh?

Velodyne sevo design disadvantages? because is a servo design, that you have to tell to the Velodyne people and certainly explain them the disadvantages of their design.

I don't know if you are taking advise of some one on the whole subject but if you are doing that IMHO that kind of advise were/are with a very low almost non know-how and if you are not taking any other advise then I recomended ( with all respect ) that you do it and take it from everywhere with the right and in deep know-how and share with us that know-how.

Mark, I already told you:

+++++ " Please read carefully, I only want ( I would that ) that you understand the whole subject concept, if you want to aplicate or not is a totally different subject. " +++++

the only reason that I can see for you continue to post about is that you just don't understand, now if you did ( understand it ) then I can't unserstand anymore your last post.

Please let us know if you understand or not.

Now, if what you bother of my posts are that I say that " servo are te best ones " or that two subs are better than one ( to even and smooth response ), then I change it adding the word: almost, anywhere you like it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Gregadd,I felt the way you do,about my friend's potential from the Magico's bass(before he actually bought them),but I am talking relatively flat to 31 hz(down maybe 5db at most),which is where the meter can measure NO lower!!What can I say,it's not my speaker,and I was bowled over by it in my friend's room.Some other's want to hear(feel)"more" bass.Personally,from my own taste,it is fabulous the way it is!The speaker has huge transient behavior,and the bass/mid driver has significant air moving ability.But at the expense of "needing" huge power delivery from the amp!
Best.

BTW,forgot to mention,if there is coloration from the Magico Minis,like Gregadd assumes must occur,I cannot hear it(except maybe a touch of upper mid softness,which is rather nice actually).It IS "that" good a speaker,and makes me think that the BIG speakers will go the way of the Dinosaur in the future.

Hello Raul, you said "Fortunatelly I have a great room ( I'm really lucky about. I appreciate that you stop to take wrong assumptions on my system. ) I add the subs for its whole advantages."

I started the thread in the speakers section "In Room Response", how about posting a room response of your system, it will show everyone just how low of a freq response you have in room and also you could post a waterfall graph which is always interesting.
Bob

Raul,my feelings on the subject are from "real world" experience,as stated,as well as careful listening(by myself, and other hobbyists I respect,who have actually heard ALL of "my" systems over the years)and believe it or not, somewhat of an understanding of the "system/room/design goal of the specific hobbyist" who has the option to employ "STUFF" as he/she feels is most effective to them!...Without the arrogance of someone telling them they don't understand the subject!

And PLEASE get off the "IM distortion thing"!!!I don't hear "it" and either would you!!!....

The thing "you" simply cannot understand is not everybody thinks in an actual textbook fashion,once the "listening experience" speaks to us.Some folks should,rightly,make configuration choices based on what they hear,in their room!...Period!!....Also,I have no reason to believe your system sounds anything less than superb,as I respect your word.
BTW,yes my REL Stentor is ported,but it comes in "below" my main speaker,and the "pitch definition"(something I am beginning to doubt you have really ever experienced)at this "low freq" is far less obtrusive on the main speaker,as it would be if one was to cross over as high as you adhere to.To my way of thinking,and with my speaker,a big mistake to cross over higher up!Sorry,it's my call on the subject,and I will bet I am at the very least as crirical as you....

BTW,don't take any of my input as my being upset,or mad,as I am not!!..I am "actually" waiting for my wife to come home,so we can go to dinner.Hence, the time to keyboard for awhile,hopefully in good spirits.I got carried away with this kind of stuff two years ago,with another poster,and have learned my lesson about pushing it too far!

Also, if I were NOT very attentive to "all things audio" my friends are SO rediculously critical that they would mention any distortion/aberrations in a New York Minute!

Take a look at the BIG Nola Grand Reference(I have extensively heard this HUGE four tower design,as a client owns one).The main towers have "sealed" midbass drivers extending down to 40 hz.The secondary two sub towers,are ported,and designed to come in below 40 hz!They,the ported sub towers, are the achilles heel of the design as the "pitch definition" of the ported towers cannot match the sealed mid bass drivers,BUT it is SO much FUN to listen to the speakers,that one just does not get bent out of shape over this.Of course you would -:)That was a joke,btw!
Btw,Raul....I don't know why you are getting so excited about all of this.I am not stating(like you do to me...but I love you anyway -:)that you don't know what you are talking about!...I am simply giving you a counter arguement,based on my experiences,within my own systems,and others I am intimately familiar with.

I DO get impression that "some" have not necessarily heard what really superb pitch definition sounds like,at very low frequencies.It is very much like finding the EXACT sweet spot on a very good "arm/cartridge" set-up.Sometimes we fish around for a long time before hitting the magic.Once you hear/experience it,you know it!

You simply have to be able to accept alternative positions,without arguing that the person doesn't know what they are talking about.
Personally,I feel that "you" don't seem to grasp that I am NOT stating two subs are not most effective.I am stating,based on actually owning three or four of the system types(including my current one,which I consider the most realistic and involving one I've had so far...but I am NOT saying it is the best of "anything",only it serves my tastes)covered in this discusson that "conditions" DO exist where the "TWO SUB" option is not "mandatory",as you imply!AND,it does NOT mean you automatically have IM distortion issues(or you don't understand the "sub" issue) if you go this route!
What don't YOU understand about "that"!! -:)

Best....as always,and I am wearing my football helmet as I await your response!....also a joke.

Dear Bob: +++++ " My main speakers are flat to 22Hz and only 5db +.- at 18Hz .... " +++++

these are the ADS manufacturer specs.

Bob, I whish I can to do it right now but I don't have the right tools to do it in the right way and for the other way " Sirspeedy don't let me time to do it, I have to answer him again and again ", no: seriously I'm right now with an in deep tests of our two tonearm prototypes and this stage on the tonearm design is very high time consuming, it is not only to compare each protoype against other tonearms but between those prototypes. This kind of work is not only between all those tonearms but with several differents cartridges!!!!!

At the first time that I can I will try to do what you are asking, sorry not make it before.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Mark: +++++ " Without the arrogance of someone telling them they don't understand the subject! " +++++

arrogance is a word that I " don't know ", sorry if what I post/posted seems like " arrogance ".

+++++ " And PLEASE get off the "IM distortion thing"!!!I don't hear "it" and either would you!!!...." +++++

I'm sorry but that is the main subject on the thread. I know that you don't like it but.....for you can hear it you must to compare: with and with lower one!!!

+++++ " The thing "you" simply cannot understand is not everybody thinks in an actual textbook fashion " +++++

you know what, there is almost nothing of textbook fashion about the subject because almost no one and no where take in count when speak about subwoofer advantages.

I discovery ( for my self and I'm not saying that I discovery for all and I'm not saying that was the first one or that it is the only " true ". ) for my self ( testing one and again ) and not looking for, that the subs make a lot difference but for other things than the low/deep sound reproduction: suddenly I learn about!!!! and the experience is so " unique " that I put this thread to share about with all of us.

If you go to any single manufacturer subwoofer website you can't find almost nothing on the subject, every body talks about bass reproduction ( the very old textbook fashion that you support. ) but Vandersteen people that not only build subwoofers but " main speakers " : they understand perfectly the whole thread subject.

I know that it is not easy ( to any one including me ) to accept the " news " , almost all of us are a little " close " to a new ideas: Hey the earth is not flat but sphere/globe !!!!! blasphemy!! blasphemy! burn him!!!!, remember?. Well is only an example with out trying to compare at that importance level.

+++++ " AND,it does NOT mean you automatically have IM distortion issues " +++++

well, till today that kind of speaker distortions always be there, one of the best ways to improve the quality speaker performance is lowering those distortions!!! and that is what I'm saying nothing more.

Rgeards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

OK Raul,I give up!...Have a nice weekend.-:)

Raul, you said, "Bob, I whish I can to do it right now but I don't have the right tools to do it in the right way and for the other way"

Raul, you don't have any equipment to do this? Amazing! And you want to be my audio electronics engineer:)?
With apologies to Seinfeld...and you want to be my latex salesman?

And you said "no: seriously I'm right now with an in deep tests of our two tonearm prototypes and this stage on the tonearm design is very high time consuming, it is not only to compare each protoype against other tonearms but between those prototypes. This kind of work is not only between all those tonearms but with several differents cartridges!!!!!

And I am hoping you are not testing the tonearm on a system that you have no clue as to what it is doing. Because if you say the low bass is great with the new arm, how would you (and me) know? When you are not even reproducing low bass?

Also, I am not sure how you can say all of this about subwoofers when you don't even have any basic measurements.

Well, I do look forward to the day you can do this.

Bob

i can not speak for anyone else, but i removed my sub from my 2 channel set up some time ago. just this weekend i sold it with no plans to replace. the bass(on my B&W800d's), minus a sub, is deep, tight, great sounding and most importantly real sounding. not over stated or under valued just right, real sounding. my transition has been from 2 channel as a kid and young adult to 7.5 channels with dolby and dts. now returning to my roots, back to 2 channel, non-digetal, non-sub, anolog stereo system as a middle aged vinyl listener. back where i started(other then a much better system). where do i go from here? so if you listen to a 2 channel system with a pair of good full range speakers, toss the sub away. if your into movies and surround sound you can never have enough sub. thats the way i see it anyway.

Dear Bob: +++++ " you don't even have any basic measurements.... " +++++

how do you know that what you are hearing is right in a live music event if you don't have measurements?, well you use the best tools for measure: your experiences ears/brain, through them ( if you have the right know-how. ) you know if things go fine.

I'm not against those kind of measurements but according with your point maybe the Agon forums must dissapear because how can you believe what any one say/talk if they don't have measurements about?

Bob make your music life easy and enjoy it.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Koegz: Good for you and this is all about: that any one of us could enjoy what we have in the best way with the best quality performance.

For what you posted I asumme that you was using the sub like a bass reinforcement, right?, which one do you use it?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Hi Raul, How do I know what I am hearing live is correct? Because it is live. How do you know what you are hearing is correct with a recording? Because it is reproduced faithfully. Without freq aberrations from either electronic equipment or the rooms influence. If there is a frequency deviation that is in your equipment or room it is there for every recording. This is incorrect, you must reproduce the recording as it is. If there is a deviation in the original room (recording) this is what you want to hear, but it is only for that particular recording. You do not want your playback/room to alter the original sound. Isn't this why you go for a great freq response in your phono preamp?

Bob

Dear Bob: +++++ " You do not want your playback/room to alter the original sound " +++++

who say so? I did not.

Bob with al respect your " agenda " is not the main subject on this thread and IMHO belongs to your speaker forum thread.

If you want to argue about then let me know and maybe I could do it in the speaker thread: not here. Thank you for your understanding.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

"well you use the best tools for measure:your experiences ears/brain,through them(IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT KNOW HOW)you know if things are fine"!!!!!!!!.......

Raul,didn't I emphatically,(and obviously hopelessly) state "that" thought...."multiple times",with you completely ignoring this?.....Amazingly, NOW you use this response(your own words) as a way to avoid a legitimate question from another poster!....When I,myself, took the time to post my own,and experienced friends', same exact experiences,you seemed to completely ignore this,and claimed I did not understand the subject of the thread/bass/IMD!!....Unbelieveable!!!!....Before you get upset,just understand that you are not under attack,from me or anyone else here!And this should be just a good debate(even if somewhat heated).

As I had mentioned before,there are those people who feel there are alternative "Views" to the subject.I am one of them!...Yet,still I believe you have a superb system,and knowledge of music reproduction...in a home environment.A very good thing,IMO!

You asked me a few threads ago if I "understand" the subject...The answer I "did" give you(in my overly long post),but let me state simply....YES!....Yet,I am still adamant about my own "polite" and valid response to you.....Do you understand "MY OWN" point at all??

Also,PLEASE do not think I am attacking you,or trying to embarass you,as you know I have "always" been a BIG fan(and consider myself a friend)of yours.I always view your thoughts as coming from a person with great enthusiasm, and not intentionally insulting!You know(I hope) that I have defended you many times in the past!.....Here,it is JUST that you are SO stubborn,that I simply cannot remain silent!...though I am definitely NOT spending more time on this,here.

You seem frustrated by my counter arguement,but seem to refuse to understand what I am stating,which is NOT far from your own thoughts!!....Just an alternative approach..."under SOME circumstances"!"Under certain(not uncommon)conditions"!..."my ear/brain/experience" emphatically tells me this IS so!

BTW,do you have wooden flooring,or some other material under the system?Just curious.

I will not post about this, here, again as I am played out,but I will ALWAYS find you an interesting/passionate/enjoyable hobbyist....even if you are stubborn as heck(a joke) -:)...now go listen to some classical music...maybe Oliver Messien's Turangaleila Symphony,on EMI!That should tell you alot..."WITHOUT TEST MEASUREMENTS"! -:)
Best...as always,and I do mean "best" to you!

Hi Raul, you said, "I'm not against those kind of measurements but according with your point maybe the Agon forums must dissapear because how can you believe what any one say/talk if they don't have measurements about?"

Raul, I never said that measurements were the be all, end all of fine music reproduction. I have never said that in any post. I have said that it is optiomal to get a good inroom response from your equipment and room which will allow you to hear all that your system is capable of, no more, no less. I believe that there are so many great pieces of equipment out there, that are very capable of fine music reproduction, but that few people are really hearing what their system is capable of. I just want you, myself and anyone reading this to be able to get the best that is possible out of their system, and not by spending more on speakers or equipment in a misguided effort to cure a non-existant problem ( their equipment is just fine ) as is mine and yours. I will not be replacing my Hagerman Trumpet phono stage nor my Acoustat sixes which, I have owned for 22 years. Why should I? Are they incabable, no. Are there better phono preamps and speakers, yes. Does it matter to me? No. I am not spending $$$$$ on new equipment. But I sure as hell would like to get the most out of what I have. That does include tweaking my equipment. I would like a new motor for my TNT, I would like to upgrade the pots on my Bassis etc and I also would like to hear what those changes bring. And that includes the room.

Bob

Bob,I could not agree more,with your "audio philosophy",as stated in your last post.

Dear Sirspeedy: You like it ah!, this is your fourth comeback for...!!!

Mark, no I don't ignore you when you posted about: things are that what Bob ask and this main thread subject are totally different, tha's all. I understand your point too: totally.

Now, maybe you can/could think : if you don't ignore what I posted and understand my point why don't " accept " it?, well the IMD/HD subject ( subs/speakers ) is a very complex one and IMHO almost only when we experience it in our today system or any today system we can/could say that we already have that know-how, not before.

What I mean with experience it: I mean that we already had the opportunity to compare the same system with the " normal " IMD/HD " ( speakers. ) and with a lower one ( adding two subs in stereo fashion using the low-pass and high-pass crossover filters in a true satellite/subs configuration ).

Now, if you tell me that you already had that experience ( a in deep comparison. ) in your own ( today ) system or in an other today system then please accept my apologies for my past posts to you on the subject. Please no assumptions/imagination here: only facts.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul,I DID state my experiences,in a "today,or any other today, and yesterday" system!As my friend Sid Marks always states---"if I cannot hear the distortion(or my friends cannot either)then I don't care"....He knows a thing or two about music,as he wrote ALL of the Mercury Living Presence and many RCA LP reviews for TAS,back in the glory days.

He is also a bass fanatic,and I mean "fanatic"!!So if he has no issues with my low freq response,I don't worry too much.

Also,something I would understand you not being aware of(since you are not familiar with my speakers),is my current "main" speaker system has a very complex crossover(two separate ones,at 55 lbs each)which have select/custom damping circuits,that specifically are designed to eliminate IMD,downd to about 28 hz!The system is tri-wired due to this configuration.I "should have" mentioned this before,BUT I did state "this" configuration has given me the better low freq performance(not "more bass",but superior "pitch defined" low bass,and THAT is a big issue unto itself)of all previous "yesterday" set-ups,which had two subs employed in them.

I admit to not mentioning this before,so there could be some confusion here....Sorry!

BTW,you don't have to keep responding to me,as I am sure you are busy with other things,and I would like to move on as well.

Best,as always -:)

Dear Mark: I know who is he and with all respect I don't care that he is a " bass fanatic " because unfortunatelly the main thread subject is not about bass!

I know very well your speakers ( the original importer here and the today one are one of my best audio friends. Speaking on the Ascents not only I know its performance but every single signal manipulation that take inside that complex more than 100+ parts crossover that IMHO is one of its disadvantages. I don't want following speak about those speakers: this is not the right forum. ), don't worry about but thank you to remember me.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Raul, you said, " unfortunatelly the main thread subject is not about bass!"

The title of the thread is "DO YOU THINK YOU NEED A SUBWOOFER?"

Is that a contradiction? If it is not about bass, what is it about? It sure as hell ain't about muffins!

Raul you said in one of your first posts in this thread;
" remember that we use subwoofers not only for a better and extended low bass but for a better midrange/midbass too."

"better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics )"

You also said, "Now you can really know how good ( or not ) is not only your audio system but any single audio item: cartridge/tonearm/cables/TT/preamp/amplifier/CD, and now you can detect any sound reproduction performance problems in those audio items and try to fixed/exchange: now and only now ( not before ) you can say " this is the best cartridge or tonearm or SUT ,etc.. " that I ever heard."

I am pretty sure that is exactly what I said just a couple of posts ago, "And I am hoping you are not testing the tonearm on a system that you have no clue as to what it is doing. Because if you say the low bass is great with the new arm, how would you (and me) know? When you are not even reproducing low bass?"

So Raul What is this post about?

Bob

Yes Raul,I guess you cannot gain any further insight from me,so I will not post,here,on the subject.
Best.

Hi Raul, I have taken this to my thread "In room response".

Please read and I look forward to your response. Here is the link for the photo in "my systems", http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1209483707.jpg

I look forward to discussing this in my forum.

Bob

Dear Sirspeedy: I think that you are a little " angry " with me, maybe because my last post to you: please let me explain a little about because what I went to say was wrong " writed ":

- about Sid of course that I care about him and it is so good to know that he is a bass " fanatic " ( because, IMHO , the music foundation belongs to that frequency range. ).
I say that the main thread subject is not about bass ( at least not in the old traditional way. ) but other critical advantages where the subs are involve so the bass " fanatic " subject can't help us.

- Avalon speakers: I want to tell you how Avalon ( along other names. ) help me to almost start my growing-up on the high-end audio/music home entertainment.

Many years ago ( when appear the Ascent/Eclipse/Avatar Avalon line ) it happens that in those times here in México start the true dealer/distributor high-end " boom ". Many of those dealers and audiophiles of those times are one of my best friends today.

We ( audiophiles ) were extremely enthusiastic people with a " hungry " to learn and discovery the true high end world, almost of all of us achieve that goal in more/less manner.

We obtain a very friendly support from every high-end dealer ( six of them ) and we attend almost every single day ( like a group. ) to its show rooms where we not only heard music over different systems but where some one speaks to the group on different music/sound reproduction topic.

Well, Fredy ( a very wealthy person ) was a heavy enthusiastic dealer from Avalon/Rowland/Accuphase, / ASC/ VTL/etc, he had three different show rooms ( between others including home theater ones. ) only for Avalon/Rowland: Ascent, Eclipse and Avatar room.

All those rooms were tested/approved by Avalon ( Neil Pattel. ), well we goes there two three times a week to heard those audio system but not only to heard it but to test different options: amps, preamps, cables, speaker position, etc, etc. So I really go in deep with Avalon and through its " magic " I fall in love with the high end " stage ".

Neil comes several times to Mexico and in two ocassions he give us all the in deep Avalon design goals, he " naked " his Ascent ( including crossover ) and explain everything about.
Then comes with the MK2 Ascent version and change its original design.

So Avalon is a name that I have in very good shape for its high build quality and high quality performance but that big external crossover was a disadvantage for its speaker manufacturer and in commercial way and they change it to improve: they achieve its improvement goals? only the Avalon's owners could be answer from sure.

When we see for the first time that big crossover all of us ( with out heard the speakers ) were impressed for say the least but over the years I learn that sometimes " less is more " in audio.
I don't try in my last post in any way to say that your Avalons are not good speakers because I know it very well and are good ones.

Thank you for your understanding. No, you don't have to answer.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Well Raul,the actual reason why Avalon stopped adding this crossover to future designs was due to it's extensive cost/wife acceptance factors/additional crating/shipping costs,amongst other factors...Not performance limitations!..Sometimes I believe you are way too analytical,to the detriment of "musical performance"!

This is a topic I have discussed with quite a few "industry" folks,including the "new" folks at Avalon,and the response I have gotten was,in exact words..."We had forgotten just how good that speaker sounds"!And that was from experience with the equipment of the "yesterday era".With today's top equipment the performance is unrivaled,IMO.One reason why I hold on to them,and have made exceptional attempts to compare to other designs!

I assure you(a guarantee,actually)you have NO idea what the Ascent MK-II is capable of with "today" equipment,but I am sure you will post something "negative".

In truth,the complexity and design of the crossover is the absolute "strength" of the design,which is a "fact"(and I have "extensively" looked into this),but I know I am banging my head against a wall in trying to convince you of "almost any audio matter",so let's just call it a day -:)

Good luck

Dear Mark: +++++ " you have NO idea what the Ascent MK-II is capable of with "today" equipment " +++++

I can imagine because my very old ADS are awesome with " today " equipment and there is no reason to think that the Ascents ( that I know very well ) are not.

+++++ " Sometimes I believe you are way too analytical " +++++

well I think a little different, that's all.

regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.