Doug,I know you are a knowledgeable guy(you too Paul),but I'd like to add some thoughts,as we have some common denominators re main speaker bass output and sub integration.
I have a speaker that extends,extremely cleanly to about 40 hz in room.Maybe a bit lower.My intent(since I previously owned Infinity RS-1b's and IRS-Betas,both stereo sub set-ups,BTW)was to integrate a deeper bass response,without affecting the overall presentation of my current speakers,which I LOVE,and will not consider moving away from!
I only wanted to add frequencies below 35 hz.I actually have my sub crossing over at 24 hz,a gentle roll off above that freq allows a perfect blend with my Avalons.
For practical reasons(as well as financial overkill)I opted for a REL Stentor series II.Placed in the right corner,just behind the main speaker.A little playing around yielded fine results.This has really turned out to be a wonderful configuration,in my room.I was not looking for audiophile bass.I wanted a "subtle" underpinning of low frequencies,while retaining the stunning timbres of my "sealed box" Avalons.I feel that although my big boy Infinities were more power oriented designs,my current set-up obliterates them in seamless perspective,openness,stage presentation and amazing timbres,while implementing a very natural deep bass integration,but NOT bass overkill,which many hobbyists are addicted to.I still can't believe what a dumb move Avalon made by discontinuing such a fine design( easy load,sealed enclosure with stunning mid bass and dynamics,external crossover,massive build,beyond newer models,more weight etc).Well I guess WAF of smaller designs is better for bottom line,but my money is on the Ascents I own.As a matter of fact,I have been told by two industry "higher ups",independently,these were the best speakers Avalon ever made.I don't know,but really don't care.My point being,to pull just a bit more from them,without breaking the bank.Something I'd already done,with all my stuff,anyway.
Now I know Raul loves the idea of a stereo integration,and I'm sure a second sub will benefit me,but it just ain't happening.The performance,currently is SO strong that to my way of thinking,the second unit is not worth it (financially),if you don't have a very large room,and are getting a high level of performance,with one.
Before Raul begins to "rail" at me(I still love you,Raul),let me say that I called Sumiko,before adding the sub.I was ready to go for two(stereo).They felt that since my speakers had superb output down to 35-40 hz,and since my room was only 22.5x13x8,the "second sub" was not a "Real" necessity!
As of now,I'm thrilled,as I think you can be be,since I know you are very capable.I also think your B&W's are similar in output,and presentation to my speakers.Best of luck!! |
I don't think any of us have to act like any kind of salesperson,here.If anyone wants to add "good" low frequencies,to an already good speaker,then the technology is readily available.The problem,to me,on this thread,is that some of the recommendations may scare away some potential music lovers,with the inference of needing 2 units,or additional crossovers.It is simply NOT true.
Me?I really don't care if one does not want to explore the benefit of lowering bass frequencies.It is easy to be dissuaded(I hope I spelled that correctly).
Originally,when Avalon introduced their ported designs,in the Eidolon,it sent up a RED FLAG to me,because they had ALWAYS been insistent about the advantages of a sealed enclosure.They touted this "BIG TIME" in their owner's manuals.With extensive documentation,and scientific arguments in favor of the sealed cabinet.However,it was apparent that they could sell more product by making the enclosure more compact,and putting the HUGE external crossover (of my Ascents) in one cabinet.I had auditioned the newer ported designs at the time,but did not feel there was a big enough edge to move away from my current speaker.
About that time I discovered the REL line at HE 2001.I would have loved to add,just a bit of low freq depyh to my Ascents,and felt this would enhance performance if I could make a seamless transition.This,originally,like Doug's experience,was not the case in dealer systems.I kept coming back to the subject,for the next 2 years.Sterling Trayle(then of Sumiko)told me that my dealer was not demoing the Stentor correctly(the same dealer,Doug,who sold me the Triplaner).The dealer's manager,then,told me that I could have a money back guarantee,if the sub didn't work,as I wanted it,and Sumiko claimed it would.
Well it has been a fabulous investment(the manager was fired later,though it had nothing to do with his offer to me,but he was the ONLY good employee there).
Finally,and to me this is a HUGE point!Generally speaking,most hobbyists use too much bass.This is easy to do with a new sub,myself included.This is why I am so sceptical of any thoughts from either Raul,or anyone else,for that matter.Also,my advise should,also,be taken as just one more hobbyist,with a bass tuning set-up that is really an unknown commodity.
Almost always,I hear way too much bass from systems that have the capability to dole it out.Even my friends(except Sid,who is borderline,here)who have everything from Infinity's to Pipe Dreams,love to "DISH IT OUT"!!Fun,but not realistic!
The bottom line,and one reason a good one box sub set-up WILL work,is if you are careful,and don't get carried away,to simply underpin your low bass(extend it down,a bit,without overkill,which you WILL find hard,only because overkill is so damn much fun)you can EASILY be successful.It will take some time,but can be done,without a large investment or the extra space for 2 units(which is admittedly better,but not necessary,unless you are so fanatical,that you cannot live with one or two turntables.Or 5 cartridges aren't enough for you).Come and get me "R"!!
Anyone else wanting to "rationalize" not benefitting from low bass information,due to fear of costs,or system complexity,is losing an opportunity to add real insight to their listening pleasure.Make the effort to try it out.You may be pleasantly surprised!Best wishes! |
Darkmoebius,love your set-up,BTW.You seem to be following a very similar path as I did,when I tried integrating my sub "addition" to my main speakers.My friends ALL were against my adding a sub,in fear of poor integration.However with the technology available in low freq systems,I simply had to try to add that extra bit(I wasn't looking for much)of depth.Took me 2 years of auditioning too.
My room is a dedicated one 22.5x13x8,so I have my main speakers about 8 ft out,into the room.Floors are concrete.I have my sub behind the right speaker and a bit to it's right,in the right corner.Actually it is 22 inches from back wall,and 22 inches from sidewall.My main speakers are 39 inches from side walls,when measured to center of cabinet.Hope this helps.I sit 9.5 feet away from main speakers.This placement of sub,though always in right corner took EONS to get right!I'm talking about the "Rubics Cube" aspect of crossover point,placement,and gain setting.
You appear to be on the right track,and I'm sure you'll report back,soon,that you have found NIRVANA!!One thing:try to keep the main speakers out,well into the room,with really careful corner(NOT too close to corners though,as the subs need to breathe)placement of subs.I know you have to live in that room,but Audio is MORE important than your wife or mother in law's opinion!!Right?Besides a nice piece of shiny "BLING" always helps me,to get what I want.Try it!
What you are looking for(and I'm not trying to come off as an expert,so obviously feel free to improvise)is a superb sense of true "depth of soundstage",with a deep,but not overdone,sense of weight.Believe me,if you think the subs may be set too low,but are hearing low freqs and a subtle sense of pressure in room,on certain material,you are probably close to where you want to be.
Way too many set-ups are too bass heavy.When a mfgr or reviewer,for that matter,claims that the primary feature of a speaker system's impressive sound is the "GREAT BASS",that tells me it is,usually,too much bass!Which is fun,but destroys inner voicings,and subtle fine detail.Though plenty of people love this(ever pull up to a car with a MEGA BOOM BOX car system?Think he/she cares about inner voicings?).This can also,merely be my own taste.I don't care about cracking my plaster,but I do get off on a wonderful sense of inner detail,and soundstage depth,with a subtle underpinning of low frequencies;and to answer a suspicion by Raul--My crossover of 24 hz,does NOT impact anything above 40 hz.Careful set-up (not specs)has seen to that.Believe me,I would not want to go through it any time soon,but I am a fanatic.Guilty,but not sorry!!
Let's face it:when we are told a sub set-up will enhance the main speaker's midrange,it seems to me that the main speaker's mid is suspiciously lacking something.Usually the mid thickens up,when the low bass is too much,or even just a bit too much;but then there is a slight loss of subtle fine detail.It has to be sort of like Goldie Lox's porrage--JUST RIGHT!Then there is the magic,which I'm convinced you will have,as you have a "WORLD CLASS" set-up.Best wishes!! |
Darkmoebius,you will find that as you lower the Sub output(using gain or placement,though you may try lowering cutoff point)there will be "Additional Information" that will appear,as well as a deeper soundstage.There will,also,be an even greater sense of high freq info.Too much bass will thicken up the sound,overall.Try listening without the subs.Then after a day or two,try to adjust for Maximum stage depth,with a very slight underpinning of low freq.When you get it "right",you'll immediately know it,as the system will "open up",while retaining proper "weight"!Best of luck! |
Raul,as per your last thread,I finally DO get your point,which is valid.Best wishes!
Speedy! |
Raul,I must admit,though I don't really know you,I've come to LOVE you.What can I say?You're one of a kind!!BTW--It's funny!My system seems to be "balanced" too!!See,we have more in common!!
On the subject of a visit.You do realize that flying to Mexico(though if I were wealthy I'd do it,as I'd love to meet you)for a listening session,is a BIT of a stretch. |
Cardani,I think ANYTHING audio is a hard sell to the "little lady" these days.I have to keep her happy,on vacations,by shying away from audio related topics.Thanks for the suggestion. |
Hey Doug,don't be jealous!You had your shot last winter with your offer to appear(I knew it would not reach fruition,though you're loveable too)at my friend Sid's doorstep,with your ZYX UNIV in tow!It's probably in a vault,when you're not listening. |
Dear Raul,you need 4 subwoofers,for perfect Raul/type sound.Sorry,but you are a perfectioist.Don't deny this to me,as I know you too well.If you can go the mega table/arm/cartridge route,why not "do your low frequencies right"!!Note:I said low freq,as opposed to bass!Best regards,and don't get too serious in your reply,as I'm sort of(just a little)kidding you,but the 4 subs are better,MUCH,than two.
Ps-If you get the 2 additional subs,I may consider hopping a plane to Mexico City!! |
OH,DRATS---I was hoping Raul was independently wealthy,and was willing to fly myself,and family to his private listening compound,on his dime!!Apparently no such luck!!
Hmm!There's always Albert Porter!Think I'll begin to "Butter HIM up"!!Albert,did I ever mention that you have the best system on the Planet??I don't take up much sleeping space,and eat little.Maybe I can offer a couple of freebie tennis lessons,in return!
Best regards! |
Servo systems offer their own set of problems(ex:heavy work load on amp).Room loading,with a careful ear,costs absolutely nothing,and may ameliorate the need for any aftermarket sub systems.
PS--Raul,the Rel line is NOT only for low freq. reinforcement.Why don't you actually listen to one,in a proper set-up?Best regards! |
Raul,I do think I'd like to try that second sub,since you say I have "nothing to lose".I've seen my sub on the used market,and can get a second one for about 2500 U.S.dollars.Can you lend me the money,to verify that it will be a big enough improvement?I've done a dumb thing,by promising my family a vacation,this summer!Best regards! |
Raul,please don't preach to me.My thoughts certainly DO apply to this thread.I seldom see threads that stick,EXACTLY, to the exact subject.I,personally,like to see other "RELATED" viewpoints on subject material,that interests me.That is how one can come to a related piece of info,that could add a different perspective,to a topic.Which may be helpful.We are still talking about low freq performance,and if I can help to persuade someone that they do not have to fear complexity,or additional costs,of two subs,if they can implement one,than that's all my intentions are!!I fail to see your problem with this!
As for the 2 sub issue!!Raul,I have owned some of the BIG Infinities in the past!My friend's have these,as well as Pipe Dreams,with 4 subs.So I know exactly what you are talking about.That being said,I'll still stick with my previous comments,that one does NOT have to have two subs.It is room/main speaker related!Unless you simply must listen to movie soundtracks,all day at 110 db.Then Raul,you'll have to consider 4 units,like my friend has in his Pipe set-up.How about it?Ever hear 4 in your room?The little ceramic figures on your coffee table would not survive(that's a joke,btw)! |
Hey,Raul!!I'm not arguing with you!My only real point was to sort of indicate to Doug,or anyone else interested,that if money is an issue,as well as space limitations,for two subs,you can get great results with one.That's it!
As for the stereo option,to my way of thinking,if one is crossing over as low as I am(and Doug's main speakers will most likely need),then any low frequencies are perceived in "mono" anyway!Now Raul---"THAT HAPPENS TO BE THE REAL FACT!!
The only advantage of the second sub(and one has to understand that there is a difference between how we configure a sub set-up.How low the crossover point,will have a huge impact on whether a stereo set will perform.EX:As I'm sure you know,a higher cutoff point will sound better with 2 subs.What you don't seem to grasp,Raul,is that if the main speakers are quality performers down to "nearly" the low octave,and you crossover "LOW",like 25-35 hz,since everything is already mono,at that point,the only advantage of the second sub is for evening out the acoustic energy(response),which may or may not be such a big problem,as the ROOM DETERMINES THIS!!
Now,before you kill me on this,which I know is coming,you have NOT heard every room,or mine,so give some consideration to this.Some hobbyists may be able to extend listening pleasure,and save a few bucks too!That is why Sumiko(Sterling Trayle,actually)argued I try one first.They were not out to ONLY sell product.Rare in this hobby.Best wishes!! |
Raul,sorry.I was on vacation.Local day trips,due to the hurricane,washing out my original plans.There is extensive info,about the MOST effective(in terms of pitch definition,and true accuracy,something most are really unaware/uninterested in)in the over two hundred page hard covered book,that came with my Ascents.Here the "FORMER" Avalon(under ownership by Charles Hansen,now owner of AYRE)offers extensive,and I mean EXTENSIVE research and scientific facts,backed by computer verification.I would guess that due to Avalon's change to ports,this BOOK is no longer available.Can't blame them,as the bottom line is still sales.For me,they can keep their Diamonds.I'll live very happily with my Ascents/Stentor.
There is a deluge of quite interesting info on the subject of ACCURATE bass response,and how it relates to real world listening.This book is,to me,my bass Bible,as it seems to have ALL competing types of bass systems,extensively covered,and the arguments presented,make real sense!!
Best regards!!Also,thank you so much for the invite.I wish I had the extra time to take you up on it.You are a truly FINE person,even if you need to still learn a bit about bass propogation.That was a joke!! |
Raul,and other interested folks,if the main speakers can support a certain low frequency,before rolling off,it will be best to bring in the sub at just under this point.
EX:if the main speaker(my Ascents for example)are giving in room response to about 35hz,experiment with the sub crossover point just below that.Maybe coming in at around thirty hz.This MUST be played around with,as the room/placement will affect sound.
I believe the lower sub setting is definitely BEST here,because even though we cannot hear the main speaker low cut off point in exact terms,it still has some output beneath our perceptions(due to room loading).So we do not want the sub to overlap this,or you get a thickening of sound.Also,keep the gain setting LOW!!Too many sub owners try to go overboard with bass volume.You want the stage to open up,releasing depth and a wealth of high freq detail.NOT bloat!This is masked if the sub is not placed in room,and set PERFECT!It can take time,but is well worth the effort.
Many current sub models can be integrated very well to almost any decent speaker.It is a far better way to get a nice speaker upgrade(financially),rather than selling the main speaker,taking a huge loss,and buying new.Providing one has a very good main speaker.One reason why I have kept my "incredible"(should be spelled with capital letters)Avalon Ascent MK-II's.Just add a good sub,and these Gems still amaze,with a huge stage presentation,and detail in abundance.The business of diamond driver/Berrylium technology,though fine, kind of loses meaning when these speakers are given todays best supporting componentry! Just my two cents worth.
Hope this makes sense.It works,for me.
Best! |
