Do you think you need a subwoofer?

Do I hear wedding bells?

They could even be really BIG bells, since they both have great LF response!

Raul,

Thank you for starting and supporting a truely informative and interesting disucssion. I just read the entire thread (not counting all the helpful links, yet). This is a great resource for those looking to further improve musical reproduction in the home.

We don't have a sub (or subs) yet, and space constraints may prevent us from adding any, unless we buy a bigger house or add a music room to the existing one. Putting two subs in front of our speakers (or anywhere) would be impossible. There would be no space left to walk through the living room.

The most we could do at present would be to add a single sub, and it would have to go in one particular corner, behind and outside the right speaker. There's a foot or two to play with but that's about all.

Do you think that would be worth the expense and trouble? Another factor to consider is our very lively suspended wood floor, which already sends too much energy into the equipment rack. Lightening the load on the amp and main speakers makes excellent sense, but shaking the electronics and turntable with alot of LF energy doesn't. Help!

Thanks,
Doug

Darkmoebius,

Thanks for the insights. Like you, if I can get another .03% for just $10-20K, I'm all for it! ;-)

Our rings-like-a-bell Salamander Synergy is (somewhat) isolated from the trampoline floor. Each of its eight feet is sitting on a heavy duty sorbothane hemisphere. The rack and all the equipment on it push the sorbothane to its designed load limits, so its benefits are pretty much maxed out. This does help, but a quieter rack on a solid floor would help alot more. I'm afraid those will have to wait until my next lotto ticket comes in.

Raul,

Thank you for the honest answer, which I sort of expected. :-( With all the timing and phase integration issues, it only makes sense to have a sub for each main speaker, as close as possible. Otherwise you're risking sonic mud. Your description of all the work you did to place your subs was very eloquent.

I'm sure the one-sub, bass-is-not-directional idea was invented to sell subs for HT explosions, while keeping the decorator happy by not putting two more large boxes in the middle of the room.

If one sub isn't worth having, we'll just have to wait until the room grows a bit. :-(

It's funny. The cubic volume of air "seen" by our speakers is pretty large, 26 feet x 18 feet x 7.5 feet. Apart from the low ceiling that's probably more space than many speakers get. But the room layout is restrictive. There simply is no space near the speakers for subs, and no other way to arrange the room.

Some day...

BTW, is Hurricane Emily missing you? I hope no one close to you is affected.

Regards,
Doug

Doug

Thanks SirSpeedy and Raul, for continuing to address the one sub/two sub question.

Of course I am in the ideal position to mediate, since I have NO sub! I can expostulate from a position of pure innocence, err, ignorance. ;-)

My decision is: you're probably both right. Assuming proper implementation, one sub is better than none, and two subs are much better still.

I don't for a second doubt Raul's statement that two subs make a huge improvement. He's done the work, he's heard the results.

SirSpeedy is probably correct that my speakers and his are similar in bass performance. Audiophiles who visit occasionally miss a bit of bass slam, but they are universally impressed with its articulation and tunefulness. As Raul said, there are quite a few excellent main speakers that will go down solidly and cleanly to 40 Hz or so. It's that last octave (and below) that's so difficult.

I think Doug would be surprised at the benefit from a single REL Stentor III crossed at 25Hz, but only by listening would he know for sure.

Thanks, George_a. Of course the REL methodology bypasses one of the advantages espoused by Raul, reducing the LF load on your main amp and speakers to allow them to produce the midbass and up with lower distortion. Which method is better? One could only know by trying both in the same system.

I've actually heard a Stentor, though not in my room or system. It wasn't dialed in properly so I didn't learn much. The system actually sounded cleaner without it.

Hi Raul,

Can you guess if the side-firing woofers used by Coincident in their larger speakers would produce a similar effect? Their two largest models go down to 24 and 20 Hz, quite a bit lower than my B&W's. (As you know, we really have no space for subs located as you recommend.)

Regards,
Doug

Thanks Raul.

Our room is also asymmetric in the L/R direction. The L speaker is a little over 1m from its side wall, the R speaker is over 2m. The furniture in each direction is different too, which should also help break up standing waves.

Both speakers are open to another room behind them. They have nearly 5m behind them and at least 3m in front, plenty of room to breath. I'm sure this contributes to our excellent soundstage depth, imaging and air.

It sounds like side-firing woofers could work very well in this setup, though we'd have to have to have them facing out. (Facing in would aim a woofer directly at the TT and amplifiers, not a good idea!)

Many thanks again for this excellent thread,
Doug

Wow. Like you say, sometimes things that make no sense work fine while other things that make good sense fail. Try everything!