Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
@geoffkait You posted the Nobel prize quote as if it was you, yourself who one it. And for the record, I brought a gun to this fight, i'm tired of your ridiculous pseudoscience claims on these forums. They are bad for this hobby we all enjoy and confuse people who are not technical. I do have a counter argument to your claim that wire is directional when implemented in a AC circuit (interconnects & speaker)? AC is ALERNATING CURRENT! So the electric charge in alternating current (AC), changes direction periodically. The voltage in AC circuits also periodically reverses because the current changes direction. How would wire directionality work in a AC circuit? The "preferred direction" would be wrong half the time! And please keep your response out of the world of photons, its NOT relevant to this discussion. We are talking about HOW AC current actually works. Here is a challenge for you which I know you will squirm you way out of, please tell us all where one can purchase directional wire, besides your favorite audioquest plug. I asked you about this before, go to any home depot and ask the guys in the wire department for directional speaker wire, the will laugh at you because it does NOT exist. Call up Beldon, a very well know producer of wire, tell them you want to purchase directional speaker wire and give us their response. I can go on and on with other challenges so bring it on! |
Perhaps listen to your cables when they are new (no burn in). Have a friend take your cables for a week or so. Tell him to burn the cables in or do nothing, but don't reveal it to you. Listen to the cables again for the obvious difference in sound and confirm your findings with him. Then feel good that at least this audio myth didn't cost you any money. |
Many of us are engineers? But not you, one assumes. Just going by what you say, no offense. You haven’t made any technical argument. Plus any real engineer, especially one experienced in this sort of discussion, would have certainly recognized Feynman’s famous quote. You brought a knife to a gun fight. If you don’t actually HAVE a counter argument then maybe it’s time to pack your bags and head back to AudioKarma. You have to explaining to do. You know, like things over on A-Gon are a lot tougher than you guys thought. 😬 “Shut the cave door and back to pigmy country!” 🦍 |
@geoffkait Many of us are engineers on this forum, you make statements of FACT but provide NO proof. As rldwv wrote: All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the addage "In God We Trust, all others bring data". In typical geoffkait fashion you give up when it comes to proving what your claims. You provide NO technical arguments you just make undocumented/proven claims and give up when challenged for proof of your pseudoscience. |
Has anyone considered the possibility that a person gets accustomed to the sound of a new component or new cables after listening for 200 hours, then decides that they like it? That IS human nature after all.(sorry if this has already been said - I don't have time to read ALL the posts but the first 20-30 were unanimous in favor of the burn-in effect.) |
The quote is not mine, it’s Feynman’s. That’s why it’s in uh, quotes. Why would I say I won the Nobel prize? Obviously you have difficulty following technical arguments. These demands for proof of yours serve no purpose, especially given your inability to follow relatively simple technical arguments. This conversation can serve no purpose any more. ta, ta |
@geoffkait Once again you have avoiding providing DATA/Documentation on your claims that wire is direction OR that it requires/benefits from break-in. You make unrelated statements like below, claim you won the Nobel Prize (see quote below) but NEVER provide us with any DATA! Please share with us the measurable, repeatable data the proves wire is directional AND that wire break-in is real! “If I could explain it to the average person they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.” >>>>I guess you would have to know that everything that’s in the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, which is actually an extremely small portion, is comprised of photons. It’s pretty obvious visible light cannot travel through most solid materials except transparent ones like water, polycarbonate, glass and clear plastic. The electrical signal and the audio signal, are also in the electromagnetic spectrum, but can travel through copper or silver. I bet you thought the signal was electrons, right? |
stevecham GK: nice try :-) But man do you get ’em going! Next we should talk about whether the composition of baryons in wire metals, such as protons (two up and one down quark) vs. neutrons (two down and one up quark) are what's really 1) being burned in and 2) account for directionality. Because it ain't fermions such as photons, my friend. >>>>>Name dropper. |
There are too many people with no electrical engineering background saying things that just makes your head spin. It's complicated so don't simply things. Do this simple experiment. If you don't understand the reason behind this experiment then maybe you should listen more than post. The low pass component in your speakers cross over is usually an inductor. For example a typical inductor for a two way is about 1.2mH which has many meter of cable in length ... may be even 10 meters long or more. This inductor is in series with your speaker woofer. Of course the amp is connected to your speakers through a cable and this cable is then connected to the inductor of the speakers. So the current travels from the amp to the speaker cable to the inductor and eventually to the speaker woofer. Now if you use a 10 meter long speaker cables from your amp to drive your speaker you probably won't like the sound very much. So why would 8ft of speaker cable make any different because the inductor already chews up 10 meter long or more? How electrical current travel is complicated. The length itself is just one variable. It's not the only thing. This is why power cable makes a difference. A lot of people use water as an analogy and come up with all sort of wrong conclusion. The difference between water and electric current is that before you turn on the faucet in your house, your house has no water. On the other hands, electrons are everywhere even before you turn on the switch. The electrons are already in your equipment. This is just a simple example. It's a lot more complicated than this. |
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GK: nice try :-) But man do you get ’em going! Next we should talk about whether the composition of baryons in wire metals, such as protons (two up and one down quark) vs. neutrons (two down and one up quark) are what's really 1) being burned in and 2) account for directionality. Because it ain't fermions such as photons, my friend. |
bac2vinyl it's copper, physics of copper doesn't change with the small current that runs through cables. It's your ears, your brain, that gets tailored to the sound...Pure BS! And a 3-foot piece of copper or silver isn't going to provide better current to your equipment either...That is just ridiculous to think one foot of anything at the end of a 100 foot run of romax is going to improve your electic supply somehow...but spend away.. >>>>If you get that upset over a 3-foot copper cable one wonders what would happen if someone pointed out the tiny 1/2” fuse where the current comes into the amp affects the sound quality. One imagines your head would explode. |
it's copper, physics of copper doesn't change with the small current that runs through cables. It's your ears, your brain, that gets tailored to the sound...Pure BS! And a 3-foot piece of copper or silver isn't going to provide better current to your equipment either...That is just ridiculous to think one foot of anything at the end of a 100 foot run of romax is going to improve your electic supply somehow...but spend away.. |
Wolf and azbrd, don't take it as a slight - none of us are getting any younger, but we still know what we want to hear (and I'll still help you smuggle in your subwoofer). All I was trying to say there is that we're talking about (in some cases) double digit hearing loss over time. I've been to many, many concerts, and replayed many more a thousand times in my HT at high volume. The fact that I can hear at all makes me think I should donate my ears to science. The "perceived" difference between directional-burned-in cables and those virgin, haphazardly laid and environmentally coddled cables cannot be in the 1% range, or they'd stand out in measurement like a sore thumb. Any less, and that's a lot to expect of the Mark 1 Mod 0 eardrum. |
Interesting read. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, other than to point out that you need to make sure your connections are as tight as you can get them and don't use aluminum (which starts oxidizing very quickly). Talking about phase shift without specifying the frequencies used is useless, and in this case, apocryphal. But I will guarantee you that the phenomena I mentioned are FAR more measurable than what your are talking about. That being said, trust your ears and enjoy your cables. |
Wow...I can’t imagine anybody could possibly think my post about talking to Morrow about preferring the sound of non broken-in cables was anything beyond describing a funny conversation where the Morrow dude displayed a sense of humor. How tightly are we wound around here? (rhetorical question, please treat as such). Maybe I’m the one missing the humor in the response, so forget I mentioned it. Thanks. Also, I bristle at the subject of age being a factor in hearing comprehension, although this could simply be some sort of itch. I can’t surf like I did at 16, but my wave knowledge is still there (proven last week on a surfing vacation). In any case, I’ve noted elsewhere that some amazing audio professionals, some of whom I’ve known, like Bob Clearmountain, Bob Ludwig, Elliot Schiener, et al, are all respected geezers still doing GREAT work using their elderly earballs. I mix live concerts for geniuses who, amazingly, like my work, and at this point I’m the oldest I’ve ever been. This could simply be due to luck, but I don’t care...too old...and I don’t listen to my rig at a particularly loud level, I don’t think...maybe I do...wait...what were we talking about? Regarding cables, after running into (almost literally) Bill Low at a local Audio Salon, he pointed out the bi wire advantages of his Rocket cables so I bought a pair...they're clearly directional as one end says "speaker" and has four plugs...what more proof do you need? |
azbrd @geoffkait Please explain to us minions how a particle of light, a photon, can be transferred over copper (or silver for that matter)?? >>>>I guess you would have to know that everything that’s in the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, which is actually an extremely small portion, is comprised of photons. It’s pretty obvious visible light cannot travel through most solid materials except transparent ones like water, polycarbonate, glass and clear plastic. The electrical signal and the audio signal, are also in the electromagnetic spectrum, but can travel through copper or silver. I bet you thought the signal was electrons, right? |
@rldwv WOW! You already have me moving to a retirement home! :) As a FYI, I plan on taking my Dynaudio Contour 20's to the retirement home, I just hope they don't mind the JL subwoofer. :) I could not agree more with your comment: All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the adage "In God We Trust, all others bring data". |
rdwv: maybe in your time you ran into Bill Kenney who wrote this:http://www.tempoelectric.com/Wire_and_Cable_Facts.pdf One can reasonably extract from his findings that what connectors and RCA jacks can do a signal can do the exact same thing to wires once differences are introduced (different metallurgy, alloys, coatings, dielectrics, etc.) I find it funny that those who adhere to strict measurements always discount the smaller differences in measurements or who cite even smaller, extraneous phenomena as the reason. It's a great fallback position. I've always trusted my ears, even when I hear a difference. I've never had the occasion to doubt my senses until coming upon sites like this, only to realize that fundamentalists exist in all manner of discipline, and to treat them with caution, like I do with all the other disciplines. All the best, Nonoise |
I called Morrow today to see where the cables I ordered were after having to hold the order until I returned from a vacation (on their way it seems), and asked them what I should do if I like the pre burned in sound...in jest of course...they did say I was the first to ask that...they told me to listen only a few minutes a day and un-plug them after."they told me to listen only a few minutes a day and un-plug them after." Wow! I just can't even imagine passing this off to a customer as advice. If they're unplugged after every use, won't all the snake oil leak out? |
Nonoise: "Do you think that your appeals to authority, name dropping and your credentials intimidate in any way, shape or form? " Your name is ironic, since you’re adding things I never said (called "noise"). Oh, I did mention "Aerosmith", so I guess I did name-drop. I posted no credentials, so I’m sorry if you felt intimidated. Let me fix that. I spent ten weeks learning at the USN Anti Submarine Warfare training center in San Diego. You might imagine that acoustics were a topic of discussion there. I was also employed as a senior engineer with Boeing Defense System (you may have heard of them) for seven years working on projects I cannot discuss, but their alignment is relevant to this discussion. I have a BS in math and an MS in Computer Science. Enough said, and I’m sure there are those here with much more impressive CV’s than mine. All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I don’t know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the addage "In God We Trust, all others bring data". You know what causes changes in how you hear your system? Everything (but probably not the layer of copper molecules adjacent the molecules in your dielectric). Is it getting warmer outside? Is it getting warmer inside? Any change in Barometric Pressure? Did you invite a friend over to listen? Are you standing in a different spot? Did your friend just recline in his chair? Both of you are reflecting some sound energy frequencies and absorbing others. You have changed the room dynamics measurably. Been in the room for several minutes? You’ve probably raised the temperature and the humidity in there, not to mention altered the air volume of the room. Are you worried about the testing? Worried about whether our not your "friend" is going to like your system? Even small amounts of stress and blood pressure change how our ears perform. How loud was it before you walked into your listening room? All of these factors are infinitely more measurable than the alignment of molecules in your cable. But what it really boils down to is this: are you happier? If "yes", then who gives a crap why? Our minds play tricks on us all the time, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. If your kid isn’t going to college because you spent the money on cables, that’s a different issue, but not one I think likely here. Let me offer some unsolicited advice. Listen to your music and not your system. If you’re fretting over how much better that violin or sax could sound if those unruly little molecules would stay in line, then you are missing the entire point, and cheating yourself out of the enjoyment you’ve paid a lot of money for. As an early HTPC pioneer, I lived that mistake (IRT video quality) for far too long. azbrd: I would certainly hope so. Just remember that the retirement home isn’t going to allow your Maggies in, so you may need to adapt some day :-) (I know, I know, better dead than Bose...) |
@rldwv I do apologize for the recent "personal" attacks as you put it. I just got fed up with all the pseudoscience some members publish and it seens its on every discussion thread. This hurts our hobby and confuses those of us who are not engineers. I agree 100% on Leo's advice as well. I also agree with you on hearing loss and how it increases with age. Fortunately, I can still hear the difference between any Bose speaker and Magnepan 20.7s(hint). |
It would seem that even in a high-end forum site such as this, discussions from others from other sites with an agenda devolve into childish attacks. Lots of psychological tricks being played here....... It goes both ways. Do any of you from that other site honestly believe you're the first to raise your points? Do you think that your appeals to authority, name dropping and your credentials intimidate in any way, shape or form? Please cite the "law of science" that states there is no break in without conflating it with a law that predicts a measurement. And don't forget to omit the other subsets of said laws that say otherwise when it does pertain to sound; that are still debated to this very day by real scientists and engineers who take the time to deliberate. All the best, Nonoise |
It would seem that even in a high-end forum site such as this, discussions devolve into childish attacks. Lots of psychological tricks being played here. I’ll summarize: 1. If you can’t hear the difference, then your system must be crap. You clearly haven’t spent enough money and may as well be sporting Bose all over the house. 2. Science is fungible. When it comes to the laws of physics and electronics, we like to consider those to be "guidelines". 3. If you can’t hear the difference, it must be your poor hearing - clearly you are not a golden ear, nor do you possess the auditory faculties to understand the remarkable differences. I find #3 to be particularly amusing, since I’d guess that most of the people here with disposable incomes large enough to spend five figures on wires will be at least in their 40’s, and most are probably older. Those in their 40’s have already lost about 3.5% of their hearing. Those in their 50’s have lost over 11% of their hearing (on average). (link provided below). I would guess that most of us who enjoy our audio systems probably tend to listen at higher levels than the average Joe with his big-box-store HT system connected to his TV. If anything, we would tend to be on the higher end of the hearing loss curve as a result. I probably lost at least 3% at an Aerosmith concert in 1978. But I’m not trying to convince anyone here not to spend the money if it’s just burning a hole in your pocket. HiFi salesmen gotta eat, too, and your state could use the sales tax. However, I would strongly recommend people taking Leo’s advice (above) and start with the room analysis and treatments. Put in as much acoustic damping material and as many bass traps as your spouse will let you get away with. I don’t think there’s one soul on this or any respectable audio forum who would argue with the enormous and easily measurable differences room acoustics make. Then and only then would I expect to see a clown car. https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/statistics/hearing-loss-increases-with-age |
OMG! I don't think there is a Nobel Prize for pseudoscience and the fact that you would claim to have won a Nobel prize is as crazy as the products you are pedaling. You do realize that any of us minions can simply query the list of winners?? And once again you have diverted the conversation to avoid PROVING what you claim. Please, please provide us with actual information to back up your claims! Many of us ARE engineers and would love to read/see the facts behind wire directionality. |
@geoffkait Please explain to us minions how a particle of light, a photon, can be transferred over copper (or silver for that matter)?? >>>>>>>Try to keep up with the conversation. I do not push my products but I’m always happy to see someone else mention them. I'm NOT promoting your questionable products, I mention them because they are ridiculous, how can anyone on this site take someone who promotes quacky science like that this take ANY of your suggestions seriously?? >>>>The signal itself is a horse of a different color and travels at near lightspeed in metal conductors. Which of course means the signal must be comprised of photons. So, it’s actually photons that navigate the wire better in one direction than the other. Please provide us with the documentation/science for directional wire and where to find it besides audioquest? Oh, and where can someone purchase "directional wire"? Do any high end electronic or speaker companies use directional wire in their products? Is directional wire used in our homes or the electrical grid? Oh, and don't forget the documentation on photons traveling over a wire! If what you are suggesting is true I'm sure it would be used everywhere to gain an extra edge. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? >>>>>Maybe I am. It is one of the reasons why a test can go awry. You might be taking this just a tad too personally. Not taking it personal at all, I have been in this hobby for over 40 years, I know so i'm pretty sure i know what i'm doing. I just don't like people promoting quacky, pseudoscience on these forums. There are younger, less knowledgeable people reading these forums that we need to keep our hobby going and your suggestions don't help. As @sleepwalker65 wrote: We have this phenomenon of people blindly doing things due to information that they interpret incorrectly. In case you don't know the definition of pseudoscience its taking a grounded and provable scientific principle and manipulating it into a nonsensical form that is NOT verifiable. Your insistence of wire directionality and photons over wire falls right into this category. |
stevecham, The trouble with that theory is that electrons are not the signal. Electrons are simply the charge carriers. The signal itself is a horse of a different color and travels at near lightspeed in metal conductors. Which of course means the signal must be comprised of photons. So, it’s actually photons that navigate the wire better in one direction than the other. |
sleepwalker: you may have missed my point. I was referring to directionality. The reciprocation of engine pistons was my analog not for break-in but for electrons; there is no net current flow of electrons in a wire propogating a musical, or alternating current, signal. For this reason, there can be no wire directionality because the electron field alternates as electromotive power, as push, pull, otherwise, we’d hear nothing. There’s as much force in one direction as the other, hence no net flow. |
Somebody claimed that “all wire is directional”. That is nonsense, but I can see where people who don’t know better would get that idea: they heard it from someone who heard from someone else, who saw how it’s done with balanced cables in pro audio, where convention is to ground the shield at the side which connects to the signal source and to “lift” the shield ground at the other end to prevent a ground loop from occurring. This effectively makes the cable assembly directional. The people who think that because it’s done like that in one application don’t understand the rationale, and just make things up to try to impress others. It’s like the reason why some people floor the gas pedal on their car just before they shut off the engine. They think they need to do that because they saw someone once who did the same thing, not knowing that they were really doing it to kick the fast-idle off so the engine wouldn’t ping and knock after the iginition was turned off. And so so we have this phenomenon of people blindly doing things due to information that they interpret incorrectly. Some psychologists refer to it as “broken telephone syndrome”. Neat eh? |
azbrd @geoffkait @hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? >>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. I thought you were pushing "contact enhancers" to fix this? Or maybe it was Machina Dynamica’s Brilliant Pebbles? I can’t remember. >>>>>>>Try to keep up with the conversation. I do not push my products but I’m always happy to see someone else mention them. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you can’t really expect them to sound too good. If the new cables where NOT broken in then we all should have been able to hear a huge difference between the new cables and the 1000 hour cables according to you. NONE of us heard ANY differences, no matter which direction we ran the cables! >>>>You’re not following what I’m saying. It’s not black and white. 3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction. 4. As has been pointed out many times cables don’t get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient. 5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there. I’m using 10g wires with excellent resistance/capacitance/inductance specks. Please document what constitutes sufficient quality other than those metrics. >>>>>I’m not saying all of those reasons apply to your test. But the more you talk the more I’m inclined to think most of then probably do apply. 6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? >>>>>Maybe I am. It is one of the reasons why a test can go awry. You might be taking this just a tad too personally. Well, you show me yours if I show you mine. >>>>It’s not about me, it’s about you. 7. There are errors in the system. What type of errors in a AC circuit >>>>Errors can be anywhere in the system. 8. The test subjects’ hearing is not all it’s cracked up to be. Two of use (sic) are engineers and one is a professional musician who has also mastered many CDs. >>>>>That is an Appeal to Authority. One of the worst sounding systems I ever heard belonged to a musician. The second worst sounding system I ever heard belonged to an engineer. I am actually nit a big fan of mastering engineers, you know, due to all the dynamic range compression. If it were not a false argument then any engineer or musician in town could automatically win any argument by declaring, I’m an engineer or musician so therefore I am correct. Better luck next time. 9. Differences were masked by “outside conditions” - weather, time of day, unknown causes. Yep, i checked. it was a high sun spot day! >>>>>Funny. I figured you probably wouldn’t know what I was referring to. Especially unknown causes. 10. Test subjects were drunk. you have got to be kidding???? >>>>I don’t know. Am I? |
