I have a different take, The SCM 11 are not bass light or bass shy, they are actually the "warmest":(the most bass in relation to the midrange) of ALL the small ATC 2 ways. So the bass light impression of the SCM11 shoild not be, I suspect its all "room" related. The fact that sub seemed to "solve" the issue emphasizes the point. There could be multiple reasons for this, but lets start with the basic Idea that a room under 30 foot in dimensions is incapable of supporting a 32 hz wave (32 hz = 35 foot long wavelength).
Most speakers will be bass light in a normal size (12-20foot dimension) room. This is NOT solved by stand mount vs floor mount, or other myths. This issue is msot often solved with multiple small subs used a low level. 4 small 10s would not be wrong- they can even be small cheap subs. Without high passing your SCM11, adding subs [that are not ported] low passed in at somehwere around 60-90Hz could be the best solution. This would provide even bass throughout the space and also enable you to set the balance of sub to main to your taste. I would not get overly concerned about LFE unless the min application fo these is film.
You will get quite a few with different ideas here, but this idea is one of the solutions we put in play in studio control rooms all over the US when they have the same problem, small dimensions.
Brad
Brad
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@jeres8860 , Your SCM 11s are lovely little two way monitors with very capable drivers. Adding subwoofers correctly to this type of loudspeaker takes them to an entirely different level of performance even better than most large three way floor standers. Because of the very small enclosures they have less trouble with enclosure resonance and diffraction leading to more precise imaging. Adding subwoofers can drop distortion dramatically at volume and increase the headroom 10 dB. That is twice as loud! That is like getting an amp that is three times larger.
Doing this wrong will just f--- things up. To do this correctly you have to get two subwoofers. Place them just inside each SM 11 up against a wall and try to keep all the speakers on the same radius from the listening position. I suggest 12" drivers. If you are a handy guy get kits from Parts Express and use the money saved to get a digital preamp with bass management. The MiniDSP SHD is only $1300.00 To drive the subwoofers get a commercial sound reinforcement AB amp like a QSC. It has to have a balanced input. If you want to go ahead with this and you have any trouble feel free to message me. Believe it or not, all this will cost you less than one 13" JL Audio subwoofer!
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Why not just have an ATC subwoofer?
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Hi mapman,
Don't you think it's more difficult to optimize the positioning of large full range speakers in relation to the listening seat since the midrange, treble and bass drivers are all located within a single cabinet?
I don't consider it difficult to position large full range speakers to optimize the mid/treble frequency response and imaging at the listening seat; it typically just takes some experimenting with the distance between the speakers, distance out from the front wall, distance from the listening seat, toe-in and often some room treatments along the side walls to control first reflection points.
Once the large speakers are optimally positioned for midrange/treble and imaging, however, the bass response at the listening seat cannot be optimized because the position of the bass drivers cannot be independently located within the room to do so. The bass drivers are locked into position, usually at the bottom section of the large speaker cabinets below the midrange and treble drivers.
I agree with you that adding a sub or two to a system that uses small monitor speakers betters the experience by extending the low end that is otherwise missing.
But I disagree that a pair of good quality. large and expensive full range speakers would be superior to a pair of good quality, smaller and less expensive monitors on stands along with at least a couple of good subs. The main reason being the ability of the monitor system to independently optimize the mid/treble/imaging at the listening seat with monitor positioning and the bass response at the listening seat with sub positioning.
Of course, I think a pair of good quality, large and expensive full range speakers along with at least a couple of good subs independently positioned would be even better.
Tim |
No doubt in most any room with most any smaller monitor speaker, no matter how good, adding a sub or two and integrating it well betters the experience by extending the low end that is largely missing otherwise.
If you do it right you should as good off or probably even better off than if you simply invested in a pair of good quality large heavy expensive full range speakers.
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Hello noble 100, "some systems use two subs, -is the integration of two subs easier, more seamless." Hello changeout, In most systems and rooms, I think 2 subs will provide better bass performance than 1, 3 subs will work better than 2 and 4 subs will optimize bass response to state of the art levels in virtually any system/room. This is assuming that all subs are carefully and properly positioned within the room. In my experience, the more subs I've utilized in my system/room the more life-like, seamless, dynamic and effortless the perceived bass becomes. I've personally only used 1, 2 and 4 subs in my system/room and my statement that 3 subs work better than 2 is based on acoustic researcher"s experimental results along with numerous fellow members' reported experiences. The proper positioning of the sub or subs within a room is required for optimizing bass response. I mentioned on an earlier post exactly how to position a single sub to attain optimum bass response at the listening seat. The same procedure is followed for each additional sub added to the system/room. As the number of subs in a system/room is increased beyond a single sub, you'll notice the bass begins to sound better at more locations in the room beyond just the sweet spot.with sota bass response throughout the entire room existing once 4 subs are deployed. Bass effortlessness, impact and dynamics also increases, as the number of subs in the room increases (when the subs are configured to operate in mono mode) since each sub is required to contribute a smaller portion of the total bass output. Tim
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So I've had my sub set up for a week now and I'm loving the addition to my system. I was at a crossroads, in that, do I reverse course and sell my ATCs and my newly purchased stands that cost me close to a grand and get tower speakers, or do I venture to improve the sound I currently have? I'm not sure there was a right answer as there's always better; I could also get two subs and replace my ATC SCM11s with 19s, that would objectively better. Anyways, I'm pleased with my decision and am loving my improved, weightier sound. I've played around with location and settings and with advice (thanks again Tim!) I think I've nailed it...for now. This isn't my first time at the rodeo and I know I will forever be trying to improve things whether its adjusting settings and positions or buying new products or replacing everything and starting again. I'm very happy with my current decision and can't wait to get home after work and throw on some music. for now, I'm in awe! Thanks again everyone!
One last point, I really do love the Rel, I think their high level connection really works. the timing is excellent. very pleased with that decision as well. |
Hello noble 100, some systems use two subs, -is the integration of two subs easier, more seamless. |
Hello jeres8860,
You're welcome, I'm glad you thought it was useful.
I don't consider myself a bass expert, I've just learned a lot over the years trying to integrate good bass response with various Magnepan speakers in my system and room. I've tried a single sub, 2 subs and the 4 sub AK DEBRA dba in my system and have learned that 2 subs will provide better bass response and integration than a single sub. I've never tried 3 subs but believe it would work better than 2 subs if positioned properly and I know that a 4 sub dba will provide state of the art in-room bass response and integration in virtually any room and with any speakers.
I know of no single sub, no matter the quality or price, that is capable of providing anywhere near the sota bass performance of a 4 sub dba. However, I know you'll be able to achieve very good bass performance with your single REL sub if you set it up properly.
I think the most difficult and subtlest steps for you will probably be setting the REL's volume and cutoff frequency optimally. I'd suggest setting both as low as possible while still sounding natural, well integrated and the best to you.
New sub users often make the mistake of setting both too high out of a desire to make the affects of their new and likely expensive sub clearly and obviously heard. Resisting this temptation will result in an overall sound affect that is more subtle but more natural and better integrated with your main speakers. Remember, the goal is to extend the bass definition and dynamics of your system's sound stage in a seamless manner so that it sounds like a cohesive whole.
Please let us know the results once you have it properly installed in your system.
Tim
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Thanks so much Tim! This is super helpful. Given my space, I'm not sure I can achieve all of this, but will definitely try and use as much of your info as possible. The Rel is supposed to come in this week, can't wait to start experimenting. Thanks again! |
Jeres8860,
Congratulations on your new REL sub.
If you're just going to utilize a single sub in your room, the best you can hope to attain is good bass response and integration with your main speakers at your preferred listening seat.
Because bass sound waves are so long, often longer than any dimension in smaller rooms, the placement of the sub within the room is very important for optimizing bass performance at your 'sweet spot' listening seat. Here's the best method I'm aware of for properly positioning a single sub:
1. Hook-up your sub and place it at your listening seat. You should move your ATC mains spkrs and stands about 3-4 feet away from the front wall and into the room.
2. Play some music with good and repetitive bass content.
3. Starting at the right-front-corner of your room, walk slowly along the walls of your entire room counter-clockwise until you discover an exact spot at which the bass sounds the best to you.
4. Re-position the sub from your listening position to the exact spot that the bass sounded best to you.
5. Sit at your listening seat and verify the bass sounds good to you.
6. Re-position your left and right ATC speakers on their stands so that the midrange, treble and sound stage illusion are optimized at your listening seat.
7. Adjust the volume and cut-off frequency on your REL sub until the total musical presentation sounds best to you from your listening seat. It's easiest if you sit at the sweet spot and have someone else perform the adjustments at your direction.
You'll probably quickly notice a few things. Positioning the sub in a corner will reinforce the bass and cause it to sound exaggerated and boomy. In my experience, avoiding corners and positioning the sub, even a small distance, away from the nearest wall results in a more natural and well integrated bass response.
I've learned to treat my system as two systems; a bass system and a mid/treble sound stage illusion (imaging) system. I've attained the best total system sound in my rooms by positioning my sub(s) first without my main speakers even connected or in the same room.
Once the solid foundation of good bass response is installed and present in the room and system, it's really just a matter of inserting or overlaying good mid,treble and imaging response into the room by properly positioning the l+r main spkrs in relation to the listening seat that remains to achieve very good overall system response. I suggest best results will likely require your ATC on stands to be positioned a significant distance away from your front wall and into the room (4 plus feet if you're able). You may also benefit in your room by experimenting with placing absorbent or diffusing wall treatment panels at 1st reflection points along each side wall.
I believe treating your system as 2 systems is useful because the bass sound waves in any given room actually behave differently than the higher frequency sound waves. Long bass sound waves are much more difficult to control via room treatments in a given room than the much shorter and more directional mid and treble sound waves. I'd suggest adding additional subs to improve in-room bass response before adding large and expensive bass room treatments.
These very different bass and mid/treble sound waves also do not interact, influence, depend on or affect one another. As I understand them, the only relevant way these sound waves are related at all is that some fundamental bass tones reproduced by a sub or subs may have upper harmonics that extend into the range of directional frequencies that may be reproduced by the main speakers. This is not really an issue since the higher frequency bass harmonics reproduced by the main speakers actually assists our ears/brains in properly positioning deep bass instruments and voices within the soundstage illusion.
Tim
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Good luck with your new sub !
Please keep us update how did they fit into your system and if they fulfill your your expectations. |
Hi,
I went to the local Rel dealer and had a listen and it sounded great, was within my budget and like jl35 mentioned, they're not too big. so I went with the t/7i. I wasn't familiar with Rel prior to this endeavor, but the more I learned about them, the more I liked, especially their emphasis on use with hifi.
Thanks so much to everyone here for all the help, much appreciated! |
jeres8860,
Do you have a budget for your sub? |
Can you separate the amp and preamp section on the Hegel? If you can’t do that you will be wasting your money on any sub with a high pass filter option including the JL E110. You can save some cash getting the JL D110 or D108. Since you will be running your speakers full range with any sub you decide to get! |
REL used to have separate models for music or home theater, not sure if they still do...I had one for music and it was excellent, and neither large nor expensive |
Thanks! I was hoping to spend a little less than ATC's entry sub. I'm going to a Rel dealer after work to have a listen. Anyone have any experience with them? Seems like their emphasis is on music and not home theater. |
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Hi, Thanks so much for all the help and suggestions. After thinking about it more, I'm definitely keep the ATCs, like mapman mentioned, the build quality of these speakers are excellent and aside from sounding somewhat thin, I think it's probably a good idea to try and improve upon them instead of starting fresh. I'm going to look into sub woofer options. The array system sounds awesome, but sadly it won't work for my space. I'll look seriously at the E110. Are there any other good subs that would integrate well with the ATCs?
With regards to cables, I'm using Kimber PBJs for my RCAs and Kimber 8TCs for my speaker cable. I'm really unsure how much of a difference these play, but mind as well have decent cable as it's not something that I'll replace too often.
Can you guys recommend a reasonably priced power cable for my Hegel H160 Integrated amp?
Thanks again! |
jeres8860, If you like your ATC mains and have the space in your room, I think I have a good solution for you. It's called a distributed bass array system and it provides state of the art bass response in virtually any room and integrates seamlessly with any speakers. It basically consists of 4 subs strategically placed in the room that delivers exceptionally good bass throughout the entire room, not just at a designated 'sweet spot. These dba systems can be purchased as complete kits (4 rather small 2.5'h x2'w x1'd unamplified subs with a 1K watt amp with equalizer and crossover) such as the Audio Kinesis Swarm and DEBRA systems for about $3K or you can build your own custom dba using your choice of subs. Here's a link to a review of the Swarm system by The Absolute Sound: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I have large Magnepan panel loudspeakers which are notoriously difficult speakers to integrate with subs. I bought the Audio Kinesis DEBRA complete kit( almost identical to the Swarm) a few years ago and I'm thrilled with it. It's given my system seamlessly integrated bass down to 20 Hz +/- 3dB that's capable of reproducing accurate, natural and life-like bass whether the bass content is deep and powerful or fast and taut. I'm almost certain a dba would work equally well with your speakers and room. Audio Kinesis also offers a 30-Day in-home trial period .on the Swarm and DEBRA. I have no connections of any kind with Audio Kinesis, I'm just a very satisfied customer. Good luck, Tim |
Upmarket power chords can make huge difference also interconnects and speaker cables but you have to match them carefully to your system ,if it doesn't help and you feel that your speakers are not good enough in low frequencies it's better to upgrade to floorstanders than adding a sub to your system, I in general not a big fan of standmount speakers they can be very good at transparency, image and clarity but lack in dynamics and low frequencies. |
My limited audition with passive ATC home monitors (SCM 19s?) at last year’s Capital Audio Fest also left me with the initial impression of sounding "thin" in comparison to other similar rooms there. It left me wanting another audition to get my arms around those particular speakers better in that they appear to be of very high quality in terms of construction and design. It’s one of those audio mysteries to me at present that my curiosity won’t let go.
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Hi Itzhak1969, that's my fear exactly. I am using my stock power cable and I'm currently arranging to have it upgraded. how much of a difference can that make? |
why can't there be a right answer? all joking aside, that's my fear with the sub: I'll never get it right and I will just add another piece that won't provide that ultimate solution that I seek. I don't want to find myself further invested in this current setup and unsatisfied. |
It’s very difficult to integrate sub to the system and most of the subs are awful.
The ATC SCM 11 are very good speakers you sure that you are lacking low frequency in your system ? If so I would try to upgrade all the cables including the power chords and if it’s not help only than moving to floorstanders .
I have had before sub in my system and got reed of it because the low frequencies were artificial and exaggerated.
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Subwoofer integration is crucial and can be difficult. But will give deeper more powerful bass than comparably priced floor stander. No right answer. Go listen to an ATC floorstander |
Fair enough. I think given the choice of adding a sub or replacing my speakers with floor standers, I'm inclined to lean towards adding a sub. after an exhaustive search for speaker stands, I found a really nice match that really enhances the look of the speakers and I paid about a grand for them, so my preference is to keep them (please see for picture of my speakers and their stands). The enjoyment of sound is the most important quality and if it makes sense to get floor standers, then I'll make that switch. All things being equal, what is the smart choice here? http://pinknoise.be/enceintes/atc/atc-scm11/ |
and the e110 is not that big...one just went for $875 used... |
if you love your speakers, ATC makes great passive and active floor standers... |
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JL D108 would be another option. Unfortunately great subwoofers aren’t cheap. |
Thanks for the suggestion. Has to be that big and expensive? Does it make more sense to sell the ATCs and get floor standing speakers? Any suggestions of good speakers that work well with the Hegel H160? I'm look for a wider and deeper soundstage. Right now it sounds too thin to me, if that makes sense? I'm open to either solution. |
JL E110 will do the job and it will certainly enhance your experience. I would not go with anything ported or low cost as it simply will ruin the bass response and lower mid range of your speaker. |
