Do equipment stands have an impact on electronics?
Mechanical grounding or isolation from vibration has been a hot topic as of late. Many know from experience that footers, stands and other vibration technologies impact things that vibrate a lot like speakers, subs or even listening rooms (my recent experience with an "Energy room"). The question is does it have merit when it comes to electronics and if so why? Are there plausible explanations for their effect on electronics or suggested measurement paradigms to document such an effect?
agear OP 1,201 posts 10-29-2016 9:49am Geoffkait:You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper.
""Presence of the Past"? LOL. How about "Absence of Evidence." Being an apologist or apostle of woo woo does not make you an expert, just another guessing fool. I assume you consider Deepak Chopra a genius too by your metric?
Along with rudimentary English composition, was there an introduction to logic class offered during your freshman year at E school? Not show up much to class?"
Actually The Presence of the Past is filled with logically laid out evidence of Morphic resonance. Saying there is no evidence is actually a typical undergraduate mistake in logic, you know, since you have not even looked at the evidence. Btw I have more semester hours than you do and more difficult course material. So you can drop the pretense that you’re some some of Master debater. I did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. The problem with your logic is you use a PhD, your Pop, to refute Morphic resonance. But that doesn’t make sense, it’s an appeal to authority. Just because your Pop is a PhD in the SAME FIELD doesn't mean Morphic resonance is NOT REAL. That's a, you know, fallacious argument. Same with using your biology background an Dumpty ump years in school. Strictly a fallacious argument. Follow?
I did do a research project in grad school that won an award. It was on effects of earthquakes in the New Madrid Missouri area where the largest earthquakes in US history occurred. Even there I would not worry about it affecting my sound. It’s a silly topic really.
Just my 2 cents. I know gk cares. 😉
Agreed. Its a red herring. Completely meaningless.
You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper.
"Presence of the Past"? LOL. How about "Absence of Evidence." Being an apologist or apostle of woo woo does not make you an expert, just another guessing fool. I assume you consider Deepak Chopra a genius too by your metric?
Along with rudimentary English composition, was there an introduction to logic class offered during your freshman year at E school? Not show up much to class?
Geoffkait:If Morphic Resonance is not real you better alert the hundreds of customers of mine who have my products based on Morphic resonance.
"MR is superimposed onto your products. It is not necessarily the reason they work."
Actually MR is precisely the reason they work and I can prove it. By careful testing all competing theories of operation, birth conventional and unconventional, can be eliminated. Voila!
mapman 13,835 posts 10-28-2016 8:01pm I’m not a seismologist but I was a geology major in college and did study geophysics. We never covered the effects on hifis. Go figure!
But off the cuff if your walls arent rattling I would not worry about it.
I did do a research project in grad school that won an award. It was on effects of earthquakes in the New Madrid Missouri area where the largest earthquakes in US history occurred. Even there I would not worry about it affecting my sound. It’s a silly topic really.
Just my 2 cents. I know gk cares. 😉
............
Looking on the bright side, at least Mapman estimated the value of his post correctly, about 2 cents. You know, saying you don't care about the topic is really not a very effective argument in any discussion. I suspect it's probably best in Mapman's particular case to remain out of topics that he's either ignorant of or has no interest. For someone who's only motive seems to be boosting his post total this bizarre strategy is bound to get him in deep kim chi.
"I understand that. That’s true of my field as well. Things start that way. But the data eventually follows if its true. Furthermore, Einstein, Schoedinger and the like did a lot of intellectual legwork to ground their ideas. Sheldrake is not in the same neighborhood."
You apprently have no idea what you’re talking about. Sheldrake is a PhD from Cambridge who has written a slew of books including the landmark The Presence of the Past. Intellectual is as intellectual does. It’s all in the concept, Ollie. You have to start somewhere. That’s where the genius is. The math can be done later by the drudges. A journey starts with a single step, grasshopper.
I’m not a seismologist but I was a geology major in college and did study geophysics. We never covered the effects on hifis. Go figure!
But off the cuff if your walls arent rattling I would not worry about it.
I did do a research project in grad school that won an award. It was on effects of earthquakes in the New Madrid Missouri area where the largest earthquakes in US history occurred. Even there I would not worry about it affecting my sound. It’s a silly topic really.
For anyone interested in the concept of isolation from seismic (or any other) vibrations, there is no need to wait for a seismologist. Simply watch Max Townshend's video on You Tube, and make of it what you will. We don't need no stinkin' seismologist!
Geez, you guys have been threatening to send in the seismologist for months. It's actually a little too late as it appears you guys don't even know the difference between isolation and damping. Besides Townshend and I between us have more than 40 years of experience in vibration isolation. Only a fool would enter the fray at this point but I guess you guys are desperate so let er rip! Lol
I agree. I too have been waiting on a report from this mysterious seismologist. Robert? Tom? What is the hold up? It would anchor this thread better and save it from schizophrenic woo woo.
It’s a concept silly. you know, like the theory of relativity. Like the concept of black holes. Duh!
Scientists thought Einstein was full of it, too. The Newtonians had a brain hemorrhage. They thought Schroedinger was a crackpot. Ditto Heisenberg. Scientists must be brought around to new or contradictory ideas very very slowly. You know, they think they learned it all in school. Just because some idea or concept is controversial doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong. Follow? You mention some PhD level scientists who disagree with Sheldrake. I trust you aren’t trying to say that ALL PhD level scientists disagree with him. You realize, that would be kind of uh, stupid. You don't really think all PhDs thunk alike, do you?
I understand that. That's true of my field as well. Things start that way. But the data eventually follows if its true. Furthermore, Einstein, Schoedinger and the like did a lot of intellectual legwork to ground their ideas. Sheldrake is not in the same neighborhood.
If Morphic Resonance is not real you better alert the hundreds of customers of mine who have my products based on Morphic resonance.
MR is superimposed onto your products. It is not necessarily the reason they work.
mapman 13,832 posts 10-28-2016 3:17pm G also you can go back and study my posts over the years that you are obsessed with. I've commented on topics related to this one many times. I really can't waste anymore time trying to have a constructive conversation with you.
You call this trying to have a constructive conversation? Are you crazy?
G also you can go back and study my posts over the years that you are obsessed with. I’ve commented on topics related to this one many times. I really can’t waste anymore time trying to have a constructive conversation with you.
mapman 13,831 posts 10-28-2016 3:06pm Gk I'll let you handle running your mouth and showing off how smart you are yet how little you actually accomplish. You should be thanking everyone for even paying any attention to you.
Gk I'll let you handle running your mouth and showing off how smart you are yet how little you actually accomplish. You should be thanking everyone for even paying any attention to you.
mapman 13,830 posts 10-28-2016 2:25pm Very entertaining thread along the lines that sports fans might find WWE entertaining.
More sniping from the Peanut Galley. As usual no content. But he’s up to almost 14,000 posts, folks. That’s gotta be worth something. By the way this thread seems like a good place to show off your engineering acumen. One can't help wondering, what's the big holdup? Lol
agear OP 1,197 posts 10-28-2016 9:32am Someone wrote: Max Townshend uses an oscilloscope to display the effectiveness of his Seismic Isolators in a video viewable on You Tube. He gives a rap to the side of a speaker enclosure spiked to a concrete floor, then again with the speaker on his Isolators, the vibrations/resonance of the enclosure visible on the scope in both instances. The Seismic Isolators apparently not only prevent floor vibrations from entering a speaker enclosure, but also provide either damping of that enclosure or a pathway for the evacuation of vibration. I need to watch it again, as can you. Max also does a demonstration on a table top, displaying other capabilities of his Isolators. Good stuff, but not cheap!
to which agear replied,
"A deconstruction of Townsend (and by association Kait) from an actual Seismologist is pending. Should be a fun read. It will add actual meaningful data to the thread."
Geez, you guys have been threatening to send in the seismologist for months. It's actually a little too late as it appears you guys don't even know the difference between isolation and damping. Besides Townshend and I between us have more than 40 years of experience in vibration isolation. Only a fool would enter the fray at this point but I guess you guys are desperate so let er rip! Lol
agear OP 1,197 posts 10-28-2016 9:47am Geoffkait:There it is! English Major! If I can make an observation: it’s not really that unusual for audiophiles to make fun of things that are new to them or things they do not or cannot understand. ;-)
"Nope. You assume English major since my command of the language is superior to the introductory level English you learned during your first year of E-school. That is not saying much. I spent 9 years there with a emphasis on "biological sciences" if that helps."
Fair enuff. ;-)
"As for lampooning things I don’t understand, PhD level scientists in the same disciplines as Sheldrake call him a pseudoscientist. Being a pseudoscientist and apologist for New Age woo woo is a lot easier than being an actual scientist. There is no data. Just rhetoric."
It’s a concept silly. you know, like the theory of relativity. Like the concept of black holes. Duh!
Scientists thought Einstein was full of it, too. The Newtonians had a brain hemorrhage. They thought Schroedinger was a crackpot. Ditto Heisenberg. Scientists must be brought around to new or contradictory ideas very very slowly. You know, they think they learned it all in school. Just because some idea or concept is controversial doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong. Follow? You mention some PhD level scientists who disagree with Sheldrake. I trust you aren’t trying to say that ALL PhD level scientists disagree with him. You realize, that would be kind of uh, stupid. You don't really think all PhDs thunk alike, do you?
If Morphic Resonance is not real you better alert the hundreds of customers of mine who have my products based on Morphic resonance. Send in the Marines! And let’s go one step further and speculate that my products, you know, the ones based on Morphic resonance, just might be the most popular audio products sold right here on A-gon. Gulp! Even the most die hard skeptic cannot put the Genie back in the bottle. You can think of it like the atomic bomb.
theaudiotweak 1,387 posts 10-28-2016 8:46am These products damp all motion..they damp the cabinet motion and they also damp the motion of the voice coil which is attached to the spider and cone and basket which is attached to the baffle. Tom
Earth to Major Tom, if you’re referring to isolation devices that’s simply untrue. But I confess I’m not sure what the heck you’re talking about even though you’ve mentioned it at least 3 times. Help! Help!
BTW, got a notification that Andrew replied here. Unfortunately, it seems to have been removed before I could actually see it. Too bad. I've noticed a distinct pattern with that guy and I think he's not being totally upfront with exactly who he is. I think a little disclosure is in order. Oh well.
There it is! English Major! If I can make an observation: it's not really that unusual for audiophiles to make fun of things that are new to them or things they do not or cannot understand. ;-)
Nope. You assume English major since my command of the language is superior to the introductory level English you learned during your first year of E-school. That is not saying much. I spent 9 years there with a emphasis on "biological sciences" if that helps.
As for lampooning things I don't understand, PhD level scientists in the same disciplines as Sheldrake call him a pseudoscientist. Being a pseudoscientist and apologist for New Age woo woo is a lot easier than being an actual scientist. There is no data. Just rhetoric.
Geoff, I honestly can't get a hold on whether you are a mad genius scientist or a total loon. But what I do know is that you are a MASTER troll. And I love that! The fact that these other people keep engaging with you is total entertainment.
That's part of the idea. I engage him for entertainment value alone. Nothing he says riles me in the slightest. I enjoy Mr. Kait thoroughly....
Max Townshend uses an oscilloscope to display the effectiveness of his Seismic Isolators in a video viewable on You Tube. He gives a rap to the side of a speaker enclosure spiked to a concrete floor, then again with the speaker on his Isolators, the vibrations/resonance of the enclosure visible on the scope in both instances. The Seismic Isolators apparently not only prevent floor vibrations from entering a speaker enclosure, but also provide either damping of that enclosure or a pathway for the evacuation of vibration. I need to watch it again, as can you. Max also does a demonstration on a table top, displaying other capabilities of his Isolators. Good stuff, but not cheap!
A deconstruction of Townsend (and by association Kait) from an actual Seismologist is pending. Should be a fun read. It will add actual meaningful data to the thread.
These products damp all motion..they damp the cabinet motion and they also damp the motion of the voice coil which is attached to the spider and cone and basket which is attached to the baffle. Tom
theaudiotweak The fact that the the isolators damp the cabinet from above also means they damp the the voice coils.. Think what that means in terms of energy projected or energy lost. Tom
Not sure what you mean. In the ordinary meaning of the word, isolation is not interchangeable with the word damping. And when you say the Isolators damp the cabinet from above I’m afraid you lost me. The only speaker Isolators I’m aware of are used below the speakers. What are you referring to? Help!
agear OP 1,193 posts 10-27-2016 9:32pm I attended the same backwater institution you apparently did Dilbert. You can verify the two degrees I received there by calling the registrar if you like.
I believe you. What were your degrees, Remedial English and Science for Beginners?
Maybe your powers of memory are failing you, but you have used that same tired Einstein quote on innumerable threads. Time for some new material. As for education, it only begins at the feet of Chopra and Sheldrake as they beckon us into the seething cauldron of morphic resonance flowing outwards from some epicenter of cosmic circle jerking.
There it is! English Major! If I can make an observation: it's not really that unusual for audiophiles to make fun of things that are new to them or things they do not or cannot understand. ;-)
The fact that the the isolators damp the cabinet from above also means they damp the the voice coils.. Think what that means in terms of energy projected or energy lost. Tom
"Geoff, I honestly can’t get a hold on whether you are a mad genius scientist or a total loon. But what I do know is that you are a MASTER troll. And I love that! The fact that these other people keep engaging with you is total entertainment."
These people that keep engaging me? Are you looking in the mirror?
then prudzel wrote,
"BTW, got a notification that Andrew replied here. Unfortunately, it seems to have been removed before I could actually see it.
Juicy.
Then prudzel wrote,
"Too bad. I’ve noticed a distinct pattern with that guy and I think he’s not being totally upfront with exactly who he is. I think a little disclosure is in order."
Max Townshend uses an oscilloscope to display the effectiveness of his Seismic Isolators in a video viewable on You Tube. He gives a rap to the side of a speaker enclosure spiked to a concrete floor, then again with the speaker on his Isolators, the vibrations/resonance of the enclosure visible on the scope in both instances. The Seismic Isolators apparently not only prevent floor vibrations from entering a speaker enclosure, but also provide either damping of that enclosure or a pathway for the evacuation of vibration. I need to watch it again, as can you. Max also does a demonstration on a table top, displaying other capabilities of his Isolators. Good stuff, but not cheap!
If I were you I would seriously going back to whatever backwater school you attended, assuming you even went to school, which I seriously doubt, and demand your money back. Education is what’s left when you’ve forgotten everything you supposedly learned in school. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it would appear being a troll is about all that’s left for you.
I attended the same backwater institution you apparently did Dilbert. You can verify the two degrees I received there by calling the registrar if you like.
Maybe your powers of memory are failing you, but you have used that same tired Einstein quote on innumerable threads. Time for some new material. As for education, it only begins at the feet of Chopra and Sheldrake as they beckon us into the seething cauldron of morphic resonance flowing outwards from some epicenter of cosmic circle jerking.
Geoff, I honestly can't get a hold on whether you are a mad genius scientist or a total loon. But what I do know is that you are a MASTER troll. And I love that! The fact that these other people keep engaging with you is total entertainment. BTW, got a notification that Andrew replied here. Unfortunately, it seems to have been removed before I could actually see it. Too bad. I've noticed a distinct pattern with that guy and I think he's not being totally upfront with exactly who he is. I think a little disclosure is in order. Oh well. Get on with your bad selves!!! I'm going for some more popcorn.
"I can’t tell you how funny it is that you posted this RIGHT NOW. As I forced my way through the entire thread all I could think was.... This is just a giant circle jerk of con men. How very appropriate of you to confirm it! Thank you!"
More like a confab of trolls, prudzel. I’ve been Numero Uno here for like forever. Hel-loo! What’s all the rumpus, is this Revenge of the Nerds?
invite Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake (what a name) over. I would have them sit in a circle on chairs isolated by springs (like something out of Austin Powers....yeah baby!) and around us would be a drum circle going full bore. We would whip ourselves in a pagan frenzy like the projects of Baal and then dive into whatever vortex of morphic resonance appeared. Once the ride was over, my knowledge of the question at hand would be complete, and I could report back with a meaningful answer."
I can't tell you how funny it is that you posted this RIGHT NOW. As I forced my way through the entire thread all I could think was.... This is just a giant circle jerk of con men. How very appropriate of you to confirm it! Thank you!
agear OP 1,192 posts 10-27-2016 7:30pm Geoffkait: We’ve already been through this. I’ve already answered this question. At least a couple times. Since you’re so enamored of this question why don’t you tell us how you would measure it.
agear replied,
"since the previous iteration of this thread got flushed, humor us with another attempted answer (or not)."
Has your memory failed? Why don’t you humor us with what I said?
Then agear opined,
"I myself would approach it this way:
invite Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake (what a name) over. I would have them sit in a circle on chairs isolated by springs (like something out of Austin Powers....yeah baby!) and around us would be a drum circle going full bore. We would whip ourselves in a pagan frenzy like the projects of Baal and then dive into whatever vortex of morphic resonance appeared. Once the ride was over, my knowledge of the question at hand would be complete, and I could report back with a meaningful answer."
If I were you I would seriously going back to whatever backwater school you attended, assuming you even went to school, which I seriously doubt, and demand your money back. Education is what’s left when you’ve forgotten everything you supposedly learned in school. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it would appear being a troll is about all that’s left for you.
We’ve already been through this. I’ve already answered this question. At least a couple times. Since you're so enamored of this question why don't you tell us how you would measure it.
since the previous iteration of this thread got flushed, humor us with another attempted answer (or not).
I myself would approach it this way:
invite Deepak Chopra and Rupert Sheldrake (what a name) over. I would have them sit in a circle on chairs isolated by springs (like something out of Austin Powers....yeah baby!) and around us would be a drum circle going full bore. We would whip ourselves in a pagan frenzy like the projects of Baal and then dive into whatever vortex of morphic resonance appeared. Once the ride was over, my knowledge of the question at hand would be complete, and I could report back with a meaningful answer.
randy-11 143 posts 10-27-2016 4:24pm trollkaitt - you would not be able to understand what I do, but be assured that before giving any students a PhD, they need a lot better than 5th grade grammar.
That's weird. I kind of assumed you were a javelin catcher for some second rate high school track team.
trollkaitt - you would not be able to understand what I do, but be assured that before giving any students a PhD, they need a lot better than 5th grade grammar
if sound quality (high fidelity) is the goal, you definitely need some measurements on audio performance (and your "thoughts" are inconsequential as they are grounded in ignorance)
and you need a lot more than a glass of water
B&W uses laser interferometry BTW and has done so for many years
but I did not expect you to understand what I was talking about; my response is for others to read
Quick interrupt! I just located one of the more outrageous accusations that your humble scribe has run across lo these many years. This one is actually better, and funnier, in my opinion, than the relatively mundane accusations Randy-11 posted the other day.
from somewhere in cyberspace,
"The creator of "tweaks" such as the "Teleportation Tweak" tells a critic to kill himself on on the ___________ forum. Other users accuse the critic of being brainwashed by soviets and site admins don’t seem to mind."
randy-11 142 posts 10-27-2016 3:17pm I’d use laser interferometry or at least a vibrometer to assess the actual movement of the stands and at high volume on a variety of music and frequencies.
THEN, I’d use a driver to force the particular electronic components at those vibrations in the x,y, and z planes at greater amplitudes than found while listening to be sure.
...............................
That’s nice but the OP is asking how you would measure the audio performance. Anyone can measure the relative motion. All you need to do that is a glass of water.
Then Randy-11 wrote, in his best fifth grade grammar,
"you turn, geoff"
I’ve already described why I think it’s fruitless to pursue the whole measurement thing for iso devices. Were you sleeping?
I'd use laser interferometry or at least a vibrometer to assess the actual movement of the stands and at high volume on a variety of music and frequencies.
THEN, I'd use a driver to force the particular electronic components at those vibrations in the x,y, and z planes at greater amplitudes than found while listening to be sure.
agear OP 1,191 posts 10-27-2016 12:44pm Geoff, you are an engineer. How would you propose measuring the results of said products?
We’ve already been through this. I’ve already answered this question. At least a couple times. Since you're so enamored of this question why don't you tell us how you would measure it.
OK, back to business. A brief survey of vibration isolation and coupling devices by Galen Audio is linked below.
Note that Golden Sound DH Cones which are the extremely hard NASA grade ceramic cones are mis-identified as from DH Labs. Also notet that the Galen Audio survey is by no means complete as there are many important isolation devices missing, including but not limited to Vibraplane, Minus K (negative stiffness), Symposium, Halcyonics, the new Townshend iso devices, Shun Mook Diamond Resonators, bicycle inner tube, an example of constrained layer damping device, an example of mechanical (steel) spring based device and Mapleshade’s system of air dried Maple plate and brass cones.
The survey does not consider hybrid solutions such as spring and roller bearing combo, dual layer mass-spring devices.
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