DIY - Two kits using similar tweeter to Tekton

I know this is an old thread... But there’s not much feedback on the Satori kits out there.

I recently built the Ara Be and it is an excellent speaker. The best I had in my system since I’ve started my quest 25 years ago... Still not fully broken in, but extremely resolving with holographic imaging.

Note: the beryllium tweeter has different specs than the soft done one and requires a different crossover. It is not a drop in upgrade if you started with the regular Ara.

I highly recommend these speakers.

I actually happen to have both the LS50 (passive) and the SB Acoustics Ara at home at the moment. The KEF is my personal pair, while the SB Acoustics is on loan at the moment.

My $0.02 worth is that the SB Acoustics is the better of the two to my ears, with better dimensionality and detail overall. The KEF has pinsharp imaging, and a softer top end. Both speakers fall into the warm and smooth category.

The KEF has a tendency to only come alive at higher volumes, while the Ara is happy to chug along at lower volumes. That being said, both speakers are not particularly sensitive and you need quite a lot of power. Let me know if you need more details.

I did speak to the local rep about Beryllium tweeters (they are a drop in replacement for the soft domes used in the Ara). He didn't think that they were a guaranteed improvement as he felt that they were so darn good, that they made the mid / woofer driver pale in comparison. Hmm, kind of reminded me of my ownership experience with the Focal Diablo Utopia when I had them. 

Regards

Eric

I actually happen to have both the LS50 (passive) and the SB Acoustics Ara at home at the moment. The KEF is my personal pair, while the SB Acoustics is on loan at the moment.

My $0.02 worth is that the SB Acoustics is the better of the two to my ears, with better dimensionality and detail overall. The KEF has pinsharp imaging, and a softer top end. Both speakers fall into the warm and smooth category.

The KEF has a tendency to only come alive at higher volumes, while the Ara is happy to chug along at lower volumes. That being said, both speakers are not particularly sensitive and you need quite a lot of power. Let me know if you need more details.

I did speak to the local rep about Beryllium tweeters (they are a drop in replacement for the soft domes used in the Ara). He didn't think that they were a guaranteed improvement as he felt that they were so darn good, that they made the mid / woofer driver pale in comparison. Hmm, kind of reminded me of my ownership experience with the Focal Diablo Utopia when I had them. 

Regards

Eric

now here is a kit......
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/kits/speakerhome.html

@pbnaudio
I did not know about you guys. Your speakers appear to be extremely well engineered. Would love to hear the XmaX and others

http://www.pbnaudio.com/speakers/speaker-kits/xmax


Heres another one

Good Listening

Peter

Hi guys,
I concur with Erik's suggestion to experiment with DIY.  The right kit can produce results that will rival commercial designs costing a whole lot more. Many times in fact

Apart from the unavoidable manufacturing costs which entails rent, staff salaries, R&D, rates and taxes, advertising, shipping etc. DIY affords one the opportunity to do things that manufacturers generally can't.
To explain in detail would take pages, but briefly : The crossover as heart of the speaker is by necessity often done as cheaply as possible. I have seen some surprisingly shoddy examples in expensive speakers. For the DIYer seeing as you will be building only 2 sets it is of small consequence to spend $10 on the series cap to the tweeter, whereas the manufacturer will allow perhaps $1

It is also not too expensive to use quality resistors like Mundorf or Mills to replace those noisy sand cast abominations which are almost standard fare in lots of pricey commercial speakers.
Then there is the opportunity to adjust the kit speakers dimensions to suit yourself so long as the overall volume is kept the same and the width is not significantly changed. By this I mean increasing the height of a standmount design to that of a floor-stander. This generally looks nicer than using stands and to keep volume the same the bottom of the box can be filled with sand.
The sand acts as a sink for resonances and adds stability by sheer mass. It will be obvious to most that a commercial manufacturer would never entertain this adding sand idea even apart from increased transport cost.
Mostly when I build conventional speakers I shape some thin veneer at the back of the box into a semicircle spanning the 2 sides creating a 'U' which I then fiberglass and fill the cavities with sand. This stiffens the box tremendously and the shape breaks up standing waves.
Some of the money saved with DIY can be used as mentioned to improve XO and buy quality binding posts, avoiding anything brass, and replacing internal wire with OCC single strand wire preferably soldered in place.
The kits mentioned by Erik I have not heard but have myself used the outstanding value SB Acoustics drivers and had superb results.
What suggests itself to me here is to build the smaller 2-way as per my idea of stretching the cabinet into a floorstander with sand etc. and augment the bottom end with OB servo subs. Drive the tops with a tube amp filtered to HP at about 80Hz and the port plugged and I bet I would win money on some finding their jaw hit the floor :)

@gawdbless

There’s too much with your question I object to.

I don’t believe that money = performance in speakers or electronics. However, from a practical perspective, you usually need to spend 10 times the driver cost to make money at the retail level so as I wrote in the first post, it would be around $5k for the small kit.

As I tried to show before, whether you get into DIY or not should be for your own education, or you will never be happy.



Best,


Erik

Hi Eric,

What kind of value/performance do you think the two speakers you list. one at $1400 and the other at $2500 in terms of if one spent those amounts from a commercially made Loudspeaker?, doesn't matter what company. Do you think the value in sound would be greater than the outlay If one did buy a speaker of the same price?
What price do you think those two kits would be priced at if say Kef, B&W, Elac  etc were to sell them?

@gawdbless

I do read the posts though, but can no way entertain any form of DIY.

That’s a real shame, because I think every audiophile needs to at least once in their hobby build their own speaker pair. You’d learn a huge amount viscerally instead of whatever BS you think you can learn from reviews alone.

It will completely alter your perception of value and what things you should be tweaking to get what you want.

That is why a thread or two on DIY in the Speaker forum is important. Of course there are dedicated DIY forums like DIYaudio.com and Parts Express, but if they stopped appearing in Audiogon it would be an intellectual impoverishment of the hobby.

Above all, DIY should not be about saving money but about learning and taking control over what you are listening to away from the manufacturer and review cabal and into your very own hands. 

Building a pair of DIY speakers doesn't mean you won't buy commercial again, it just means you are a much better informed audiophile (by orders of magnitude) than everyone else. 

Best,


E

Probably why these type of DIY threads should be in another forum? as you are saying the drivers you are touting are respected but you have not heard the speakers in question. I think for the most part, and with all due respects Eric, I think you are flogging a dead horse here.
I do read the posts though, but can no way entertain any form of DIY.

Not the kits, but the individual drivers are pretty well regarded. :) 

I'd suggest you ask in DIY forums, you'll find people with direct experience. 

Best,

E

Erik,

Do you have ears on experience with either of these kits? I remember you have suggested them before in another thread.

I am guessing you have heard the LS50 can you compare the two? I have no way to audition the Satori as most folks don't.

I mean this sincerely:

I simply do not know how  you can sell a speaker at retail for less than 10x the wholesale driver cost. 

Wholesale can be up to half of retail pricing, and it's even cheaper if you make your own drivers. 

Focal produced some excellent slides talking about what goes into value. The money a buyer would pay for speakers. 

Audible performance was one of 5 or more different attributes. Brand recognition, modernity, aesthetics, etc. all play a role in increasing retail value. 

So, you are right. If you are looking for an investment, you are much better buying a Rolex. 

On the other hand, if you are going to be happy with these speakers for a decade and pay a third of what this quality would buy you in the store, this is the way to go. :) 

Most importantly, you have to be a bit of an iconoclast. You have to trust your ears and heart when you listen. 

Best,

E

Eric,

I have read a number of your post here and appreciate your opinion.
The kits you have suggested are in the price range of KEF LS50"s which I own and think sound wonderful (I am using a sub woofer with them). Does the stand mount version compare favorably with the KEF? I am not sure about the value part of the equation, LS50's have a resale value but the kit would have be a tough sell on the used market.

I do not know much about driver cost at a OEM level, but believe KEF makes their own drivers and cabinets.  The Satori drivers and crossover cost is $700 and the cabinets are the same for a total of $1500. KEF sells their speakers to dealers and I am not sure if they are set up in the US as direct to dealers or if they have their own warehouse that sells to dealers. So that is two step distribution and possibly three steps, some must pay every time the product is touched. I do not know if Madisound buys from Satori or a distributor making it two or three steps. What do you guess  KEF has into their LS50 cost wise?

Could you comment on the value part of equation and the sound quality also?

@keithtexas 

Build them first, I think you'll find them pretty warm sounding, and capable of handling just about anything music-wise. 

Best,

E

@keithtexas 

I think the Ara is an excellent choice. I haven't heard the entire kit, but the two drivers used are really pretty excellent with lots of fans in the DIY community. You can't go wrong. I might swap out the tweeter resistors (R1, R3) with Mills equivalent and put an 0.1 uF Audyn TruCopper cap to bypass C1. 

You can always do that after. :) 

Best,

E

I think those three brands of speakers use a peculiar type of tuning that happens in the "high end" which is quite different than this particular kit.

Dynaudio is also different in that they often use a W shaped house curve. 

Each of these approaches has pluses and minuses. Feel free to disagree, but let’s do that in another thread please.

My main point was, if you are enamored of the house sound of any of these three brands, the SB kit is not going to make you happy. 

Best,

E

What do Golden Ear, B&W, and Dynaudio have in common?  I can't think of very much, other than they all manufacture speakers.