DIY speaker isolation base for a wood floor
It's okay Geoff. I am going to guess most people know the difference between a shock absorber and a spring in a car even if you don't. Here, maybe this link will help you: https://www.bilstein.com/us/en/technology-and-knowledge/basic-know-how/ |
Springs and shock absorbers are completely different beasts. If you have just the spring and not the absorber you can get oscillation at the resonant frequency. Are there any tests w.r.t. frequency response, distortion, impulse response of a speaker on/off an isolation platform to characterize the improvement? |
Two things. Even through the cement slab is very thick and stiff it still moves right along with the movement of the ground due to traffic 🚗 🚙 , subways 🚊 trains 🚞 ocean waves 🌊 on the shore, Earth 🌍 crust motion. The entire house moves. And it moves in 6 directions! 🔛 🔝Springs under components are not “bouncy” as you are imagining them - they actually don’t move visibly when in operation. It’s the combination of mass + springs that provides the mechanical low pass filter. So the object being isolated moves much less with springs under it than without springs. It’s like springs (shock absorbers) on car wheels - they provide a smoother ride, not a rougher ride on solid road surfaces. The more things you isolate with springs the better the bass performance becomes. More dynamic, more slam, lower in frequency and more detailed. |
I want a firm solid foundation closer to concrete. We may be over thinking this. A bouncy spring on a bouncy wooden suspended floor? Nothing that gives is going to firm up the bass. Muscle is what is needed to control the woofer. Right? No movement. My platform is not perfect. Would it be better if I place a 36x36 inch slab of granite directly on the floor? |
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dwst_XwbwTqk&h=AT2YvQB... Thank you admin for stepping in. This is a link to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest last year. You can here the difference on your smart phone. I don't have a perfect solution but this video gave me the inspiration to go forward. I do think there is an improvement. If anyone has a platform for me to borrow and return I will. I'm half serious. |
With respect to the OP, all posts must stay on topic or they will be removed. Any posts accusing others of trolling or citing attacks will be removed as well and the User or Users that wrote them could face Temporary suspension from the forums and Audiogon. This statement pertains to all other threads as well. |
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audiozenology"I apologize for the troll "Clearthink". As one can quickly see, he trolls..." Lets talk about audio and music and not engage insult, attacks, and angry remarks this thread is about speaker isolation. If you continue to attack, stalk, and harass me I will alert the moderators directly. |
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audiozenology"Hey Clearthink! Glad you could join us for another day of rhetorical trolling." Lets talk about audio and music and not engage insult, attacks, and angry remarks this thread is about speaker isolation. |
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audiozenology"The video "lost" me, as in lost any respect I had when they started talking about seismic coupling into the speaker impacting micro-detail." This is a topic that can be difficult, challenging, and even complicated to understand because it is not always intuitive that is why I have suggested that you acquire a basic, introductory, elementary text on electronics and then work on building you're knowledge, comprehension, and understanding from there and of course there are many experts on this forum who are usually willing to help you. |
You are right, you don't need a muse, you need an inner voice. You seem to be missing one. Sure, when I want to learn about "negative-K" isolation basics, of course I am going to go to 6-moons, the well accepted authority on vibration isolation .... :-) How about the actual website of the MFR where the system is broken down to show that conceptually it is very simple. The completed system looks complex due to the multi-axis nature of the completed assembly. The basics ... quite simple: https://www.minusk.com/content/technology/how-it-works_passive_vibration_isolator.html |
The video "lost" me, as in lost any respect I had when they started talking about seismic coupling into the speaker impacting micro-detail. The spectrum of background vibrations is predominantly <10Hz, pretty much nothing >100Hz for starters. Surface area of a speaker maybe 10 square feet? Surface area of room walls, ceiling, floor = 1000 square feet. If those microvibrations are anywhere near audible, it's too late, your room is already a giant speaker for them. If you think the movement in these frequencies and amplitudes of the cabinet impacts the "detail" of the drivers, then your head is going to explode when you think about that mid-woofer trying to play say a 1Khz tone while that mid-woofer is experiencing comparatively large subsonic and sonic motion from your turntable (let alone from the music itself). Got a good laugh out of claiming the cabinet does not move in one sentence to claiming large floor coupling the next. Which is it? Could acoustic coupling be a primary mode of coupling to the floor ... after all, where is the energy coupled, to the cabinet or to the air?
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Let your fingers do the walking. 🚶🏻See link below for diagram and description of negative stiffness. Simple springs, on the other hand, are just that - simple. Simple and elegant. You are not my muse. You’re my stalker. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/minusk/platform.html “Give the right spring and I can isolate the world.” - Machina Dynamica |
The person with no skin in this game is feeling no angst. The one with angst is the one desperately trying to appear relevant while the rest of us are going "Geoff who?". I mean why else would someone describe a somewhat simple but effective concept of using spring mechanisms both in compression and extension, the extension implemented as a flexure (the negative term in Minus) as "much more complex"? The use of the tunable flexure giving significant benefits but not that complex. The whole isolation mechanism certainly has some complexity, but the underlying principle ... Not at all. I am glad I am your favourite. Everyone needs a muse. |
Nano-K did not start out in audio, that was just a side market. The primary market for Minus-K (Nano-K) is scientific / industrial. You can be as bold as you want but I am going to say the guy who runs Minus-K with his 10's of patents around shock and vibration isolation knows a few things about the "art" and science of isolation and probably has the numbers down pat as well Kinetic Systems (vibraplane) has been around since the 60s. When did Your company release an isolation platform? |
Ironically (perhaps) Minus K is actually the modified “audiophile” version of the Newport Corp Sub-Hertz Platform of yore. Also ironically, the Vibraplane, the first high end iso stand is also based on a Newport iso stand, a table top microscope stand. But what is missing, if I can be so bold, is the “black art” of isolation necessary to get the best performance out of isolation systems. It’s not all numbers, guys! In the beginning there were only four iso stand manufacturers - Townshend, Brightstar, Vibraplane and your humble scribe, and mine was the only one with a sub Hertz performance. Of course, there should be a tip of the hat to LIGO project - the grand wazoo of isolation ever since it detected gravity waves, the amplitude of which are on the order of an atomic nuclear. Also, of some interest to the student is the fact that the actual operating principle of the Minus K stand is “negative stiffness,” a much more complex principle than simple mass-on-spring employing stiff members and springs. Get it? Negative K? |
If anyone would like a quick refresher on springs, mass, and resonance, they may enjoy this: https://www.newport.com/t/fundamentals-of-vibration Newport is a scientific instruments company mainly focused in anything related to optics and light and anything related to that, including vibration control. i.e. a spring that is 1.5" free length, 1 inch compressed with a 10lb load will have a C of about 0.00029 meters/newton, and a resonant frequency with a 10lb (4.5 kg) load of 4.4Hz. That (w) is radians/second in the link. |
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Feel free to address 1 to 4 in a cogent manner. |
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Spring based systems don't store energy .... Ooooookay.
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The more you try to store energy the worse things get. It’s a vicious cycle. Sorborhane, as fate would have it, is one of the worse materials ever foisted on naive and gullible audiophiles, right up there with SONEX and lead. It seems like such a good material - not too hard, not too soft. That’s why spring based systems and extremely hard cones like NASA grade ceramics of Golden Sound cones rule the night. They don’t store energy. |
May I suggest Fastenal for springs (or any number of other industrial suppliers). They have literally hundreds of options and they are dirt cheap. Many diameters, lengths, wire size, and very inexpensive. That let’s you much better match your component to the spring as opposed to a few limited options. delkal72 posts12-18-2019 10:14pmI always thought you wanted to couple your speakers to the floor (with spikes). Now it is best to decouple them? There is no right answer delkal, as it depends on your floor and speakers. Those claiming one answer is always right .... and like a broken clock. They are exactly right every once in a while. Concrete floors and a speaker cabinet not as stiff as one would like, then odds are better to couple to the floor for damping. A springy floor and you likely want to decouple it, but not necessarily. If the cone is going one way, then the cabinet wants to go the other way. Georgehifi makes a point about sorbathane. It is one of the best energy absorbing substances and absorbing energy you don’t want to turn into sound is a good thing (this is what sand does as well) ... and what the op is trying to accomplish with neoprene. I would suggest sorbathane instead, though more expensive. The 70D linked would be too dense as a set of 4 for almost any speaker. 50D which they appear to also sell or even 30 would be more appropriate. |
I have always found this to be a fascinating subject. Partway agreeing with some of the ideas here, I tried something a bit different. First of all, the speakers that built have very heavy duty outriggers. I did this because the speakers that I built were just a bit narrow at 12" wide. I found Sorbothane 50 thick pads that were mounted to 1/4" bots. That made it easy to just screw them into the outriggers. Knowing that Sorbothane has issues on many surfaces, I happened to find furniture cups with a bunch of small plastic spikes (probably meant for carpet), that neatly fit over the bottom edge of the Sorbothane. End result is a maybe yes maybe no outcome. When I was still a bachelor, I thought about metal screws holding the speakers tight to the floor... and round we go. |
1. Start with 4 aluminum cones. I used some old Mod Squad Tip Toes. No need for all that, or any expensive hifi products, just use 4 of these these under each speaker, Sorbothan pads it’s the best vibration isolater , they are 70 duro the heaviest duty and will support and isolate your speaker. https://www.ebay.com/itm/4-LARGE-SORBOTHANE-DISC-CIRCLE-FEET-PAD-2-5x0-5in-64x12mm-SILENT-PC-AMP-FIRM-70D/372429364953?epid=1031478471&hash=item56b6851ed9:g:O04AAOxycmBS70F6 Cheers George |
The best isolation I have ever witnesses was Audiogon member folkfreak’s Herzan active isolation platform under his turntable. Very effective, and unfortunately very expensive. Here's a real talking point: "low mass". My Music Reference RM-10 Mk.2 is a real nice little tube amp, but that niceness is not the result of it's low mass (it weighs only 12 lbs.). My RM-200 Mk.2 also sounds good, and it's a fairly hefty 52 lbs. I won't be selling it and buying a mass-market receiver from the "Golden Age Of High End Audio", the 70/80/90's. More silliness. Low mass in a loudspeaker driver IS a factor in it's sound quality, for the obvious reason: That mass is moving. The faceplate and chassis of my EAR-Yoshino pre-amp are the heaviest (20 lbs.) of any I've owned, and it's the best sounding as well. I guess in spite of it's mass ;-) . |
Not on Earth anyway. exactly, thank you "everything affects everything else" you and Geoff head to another planet with different results let us know you two think you can play something in a room decoupled from that room let us know you two think you can isolate audio in an active room let us know oh and good luck, you will have accomplished something no one else in audio ever has |
michaelgreenaudio Springs are a great tool when voicing your system. Once you start using them you might find other materials that you like the sound of better than aluminum, rubber and granite. >>>>>Agree. Springs are a great tool. That’s because they’re great isolators. Use them under amps, use them under power supplies, use them under speakers, use em under subwoofers, use em under CD players. The more springs you use the lower the system mass. The more springs you use the more you can hear! Hey, how ‘bout little mag lev isolators for cables and power cords?! 🤗 |
michaelgreenaudio1,005 posts12-20-2019 6:14am So bdp24 thinks that you can place something in a room without it touching anything. Nice trick lol. mg >>>>Ah, magnetic levitation! Now you’re talking, Michael. |
Hi Blue Springs are a great tool when voicing your system. Once you start using them you might find other materials that you like the sound of better than aluminum, rubber and granite. Steve's invention of the Tip Toe was also revolutionary and was the beginning of the audio cone. I prefer the sound of Brass and Zinc and even mild steel as being more tuneful especially use with wood materials. |
"There is no such thing as decoupling in audio. That’s just a talking point from those who are dampening (1). Once you put your speakers in a room all the physics of that room and the speaker becomes one and the same (2)." 1: We are not dampening (to make wet ;-), we are damping (reducing the physical vibrations is a solid material). Those who contend hi-fi components are themselves musical instruments (a silly contention ;-) and should be left to resonate, are against damping. Those of use who don’t consider components music makers but rather music reproducers, are for it. 2: We need to make a distinction between the physical mass of a pair of loudspeakers from the acoustic sound they propagate with a room. Those speakers are ACOUSTICALLY inseparable from the room (the room is to the speakers as the speaker enclosures are to rear output of their drivers). That does not mean the speakers cannot be PHYSICALLY isolated from the surface of the room upon which they sit. Whether or not you want to separate them is another matter. @blueranger, GK’s springs are ridiculously-low priced compared with all similar products (the Townshend Audio Seismic line, for instance), and a great way to find out if you prefer decoupling to coupling (spikes, cones) of your speakers. But remember, as Geoff has correctly stated here numerous times, spikes and cones provide isolation down to a not-very-low frequency (around 10Hz), and coupling below that frequency. And that frequency is not a single number, but rather the corner frequency of a 1st order (6dB/octave) low pass filter. |
