A definite sonic improvement in tightening up the bass. 1. Start with 4 aluminum cones. I used some old Mod Squad Tip Toes. 2. 16x16 slab of granite. 3. 1/8 cork. 4. 1/2 inch neoprene rubber. 5. 1/8 cork. 6. Top with another 16x16 slab of granite. 7. Enclosed with a wood cradle to hide the mechanism. The granite is from scraps from a shop and was cheap. The added 1/4 inch of neoprene to 1/2 inch thickness did help. Let me hear your thoughts.
Nano-K did not start out in audio, that was just a side market. The primary market for Minus-K (Nano-K) is scientific / industrial.
You can be as bold as you want but I am going to say the guy who runs Minus-K with his 10's of patents around shock and vibration isolation knows a few things about the "art" and science of isolation and probably has the numbers down pat as well
Kinetic Systems (vibraplane) has been around since the 60s. When did Your company release an isolation platform?
The person with no skin in this game is feeling no angst. The one with angst is the one desperately trying to appear relevant while the rest of us are going "Geoff who?".
I mean why else would someone describe a somewhat simple but effective concept of using spring mechanisms both in compression and extension, the extension implemented as a flexure (the negative term in Minus) as "much more complex"? The use of the tunable flexure giving significant benefits but not that complex. The whole isolation mechanism certainly has some complexity, but the underlying principle ... Not at all.
I am glad I am your favourite. Everyone needs a muse.
Let your fingers do the walking. 🚶🏻See link below for diagram and description of negative stiffness. Simple springs, on the other hand, are just that - simple. Simple and elegant. You are not my muse. You’re my stalker.
The video "lost" me, as in lost any respect I had when they started talking about seismic coupling into the speaker impacting micro-detail. The spectrum of background vibrations is predominantly <10Hz, pretty much nothing >100Hz for starters. Surface area of a speaker maybe 10 square feet? Surface area of room walls, ceiling, floor = 1000 square feet. If those microvibrations are anywhere near audible, it's too late, your room is already a giant speaker for them. If you think the movement in these frequencies and amplitudes of the cabinet impacts the "detail" of the drivers, then your head is going to explode when you think about that mid-woofer trying to play say a 1Khz tone while that mid-woofer is experiencing comparatively large subsonic and sonic motion from your turntable (let alone from the music itself).
Got a good laugh out of claiming the cabinet does not move in one sentence to claiming large floor coupling the next. Which is it? Could acoustic coupling be a primary mode of coupling to the floor ... after all, where is the energy coupled, to the cabinet or to the air?
You are right, you don't need a muse, you need an inner voice. You seem to be missing one. Sure, when I want to learn about "negative-K" isolation basics, of course I am going to go to 6-moons, the well accepted authority on vibration isolation .... :-)
How about the actual website of the MFR where the system is broken down to show that conceptually it is very simple. The completed system looks complex due to the multi-axis nature of the completed assembly. The basics ... quite simple:
audiozenology"The video "lost" me, as in lost any respect I had when they started talking about seismic coupling into the speaker impacting micro-detail."
This is a topic that can be difficult, challenging, and even complicated to understand because it is not always intuitive that is why I have suggested that you acquire a basic, introductory, elementary text on electronics and then work on building you're knowledge, comprehension, and understanding from there and of course there are many experts on this forum who are usually willing to help you.
audiozenology"I apologize for the troll "Clearthink". As one can quickly see, he trolls..."
Lets talk about audio and music and not engage insult, attacks, and angry remarks this thread is about speaker isolation.
If you continue to attack, stalk, and harass me I will alert the moderators directly.
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https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dwst_XwbwTqk&h=AT2YvQB... Thank you admin for stepping in. This is a link to the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest last year. You can here the difference on your smart phone. I don't have a perfect solution but this video gave me the inspiration to go forward. I do think there is an improvement. If anyone has a platform for me to borrow and return I will. I'm half serious.
I want a firm solid foundation closer to concrete. We may be over thinking this. A bouncy spring on a bouncy wooden suspended floor? Nothing that gives is going to firm up the bass. Muscle is what is needed to control the woofer. Right? No movement. My platform is not perfect. Would it be better if I place a 36x36 inch slab of granite directly on the floor?
Two things. Even through the cement slab is very thick and stiff it still moves right along with the movement of the ground due to traffic 🚗 🚙 , subways 🚊 trains 🚞 ocean waves 🌊 on the shore, Earth 🌍 crust motion. The entire house moves. And it moves in 6 directions! 🔛 🔝Springs under components are not “bouncy” as you are imagining them - they actually don’t move visibly when in operation. It’s the combination of mass + springs that provides the mechanical low pass filter. So the object being isolated moves much less with springs under it than without springs. It’s like springs (shock absorbers) on car wheels - they provide a smoother ride, not a rougher ride on solid road surfaces. The more things you isolate with springs the better the bass performance becomes. More dynamic, more slam, lower in frequency and more detailed.
Springs and shock absorbers are completely different beasts. If you have just the spring and not the absorber you can get oscillation at the resonant frequency.
Are there any tests w.r.t. frequency response, distortion, impulse response of a speaker on/off an isolation platform to characterize the improvement?
A vehicle suspension consists of a spring element AND a shock absorber. The shock absorber portion is not a spring. It moves typically fluid between sections through small channels converting motion to heat. A little research may be in order for you.
It's okay Geoff. I am going to guess most people know the difference between a shock absorber and a spring in a car even if you don't. Here, maybe this link will help you:
Sorbothane® combines shock absorption, good memory, vibration isolation and vibration damping characteristics.
Sorbothane® can absorb over 50 percent of vibration energy over most of its temperature operating range at frequencies from 10 to 30,000 hertz.
From me: Sorbothane acts as both a shock absorber and a spring. That is one of the reasons why it is effective. The problem that may arise with Sorbothane alone is getting the resonant frequency. Best to use their calculator and you may need to cut pieces to the size you need and pay attention to the Shore hardness. A very approximate rule of thumb is if the Sorbothane is compressed 30-50% you are getting pretty good isolation (~90%). 50% compression should put you under 10Hz resonant frequency.
Sorbothane is one of the worst materials ever foisted on naive and gullible audiophiles. I put Sorbothane in the same category as SONEX and lead. Sorbothane is just another pretender. There are many black semi-soft viscoelastic materials that audiophiles have used for resonance control. Sorbothane is actually on the bottom of the list of ones I’ve experimented with. Sorbothane seems like such a good material, not too soft, not too hard. Little bit why audiophiles think lead is a good damping material. LOL
People would be far off in the long run 🏃♂️if they follow my suggestion of mass-on-spring isolation for their isolation needs and look around for an effective viscoelastic material for their constrained layer damping materials. It’s far better to leave things undamped than to over-dump in the great word of Acoustic Revive.
That someone would compare Lead to Sorbathane, i.e. a soft metal to a visco-elastic polymer makes me really question what message they are trying to communicate. Lead would be more an analog to granite, SONEX an analog to a GIK acoustic panel.
To experiment properly with Sorbothane, one has to properly implement it, which means using the correct hardness material as well as the correct cross-sectional area for the weight being supported, no different from a spring. Unfortunately, people just say "Sorbathane" or spring, without the required knowledge to properly implement and hence they lead people astray.
SONEX is an acoustic foam, so not sure why you are bringing that into the equation ..... however, just like Sorbothane or a spring, it must be properly implemented to work well.
I repeat - you can’t see the forest for the trees. I already explained it to you. You’re obsessed with challenging me. This conversation can serve no purpose any more.
audiozenology"That someone would compare Lead to Sorbathane, i.e. a soft metal to a visco-elastic polymer makes me really question what message they are trying to communicate"
I do not understand why it is that you "question the message" perhaps you are confused that both are potential isolation materials with differing traits, characteristics, and qualities. It is rather like a truck and a car they are of course completely different in form, function, and use, but both are motorized transportation.
'That there is something you struggle to comprehend, understand, or apply does not mean others are being dishonest or deceptive to you.
I am not confused, but someone reading a post mentioning lead and sorbothane in the same sentence like they are directly related may be. I don’t need to hide behind hand-waving explanations and insults on topics I engage in.
Lead can be a very effective sound absorber. That is simply fact. It is regularly used in this application due to density and hysteretic loss. It’s hysteretic loss is also such that it is difficult to make a resonant structure out of it. Like anything else, it has to be used properly.
Unlike lead, sorbothane behaves both as a spring (isolator) and absorber (dampener). Think of that like a combination of the spring and the shock absorber in a car (or truck).
Placing lead between your speaker and the floor could only provide some level of dampening. At bass frequencies, that would be almost none. Contrast that with sorbothane, which provides isolation by acting as a spring, and dampening. Properly implemented, not just buying some random things off the web, you can isolate something to <20Hz, and even <10Hz.
Your attempts to try to discredit me, embarrass me, or whatever it is you are trying to accomplish are not going to work as that would require the knowledge to know who is and is not technically "up" on the topic.
audiozenology"Your attempts to try to discredit me, embarrass me, or whatever it is you are trying to accomplish are not going to work as that would require the knowledge to know who is and is not technically "up" on the topic. "
Stop it I mean stop it right now. You have been stalking me and I am not going to tolerate you're abuse. I will post hear as ii see fit without you're attacks and interference.
So my original design is sound? No pun intended. To get a tight grip on the woofer? Without the floor trying to affect it? To spike or not to spike? So sorbethane is out and my neoprene and cork sandwich stays? Or a spring sandwich with springs underneath too? Just curious does anyone here have a physics degree. I can hear positive results with my stand. I don't want to start a war with oral howitzers pointed at each other. I'm not trying to brush away any ones opinions. I wish everyone could come to a consensus. Lets have a vote. Without the why's please. 1. Sorbethane 2. Springs 3. Mapleshade device 4. Dedicated supports from my video of the RMAF 5. My device 6. Other. Explain?
audiozenology"Clearthink, I am not going to stand for your continued, however veiled, personal attacks on me, as well as your literal stalking of me.You appear to engage near exclusively with me as evidenced by 23 of the 30 posts you made in 2 weeks being directly to me"
You do not seem to understand that everyone is free to contribute hear within the rules, policies, and standards of this group as set forth by the moderators and that means that those who may disagree with you or who wish to correct you’re errors, misunderstandings, or misstatements are free to do so and I am sorry if this has hurt you’re feelings as appears to be the case. Of course you are free to contact the moderators but you are not free to limit, restrict, or discourage me or others from contributing and you are not free to threaten me or others in any way whatsoever.
There are things you seem to struggle to understand such as induction and isolation in particular and these things are not always intuitive so there is no need for you to be defensive about this topics.
audiozenology"I expect the cork does not provide much isolation / absorption either.
I expect the cork does not provide much isolation / absorption either.
Cork is an excellent isolator and one thing you should explore, study, and research is that it is possible to "over damp" the components in a Music Reproduction System there is a lot of research on this.
I agree cork is a wonderful audiophile material, I use pure natural cork for my Quark! product for damping capacitors, printed circuit boards and transformers. I eschew the composite glued up stuff which is probably what people are mostly using, assuming anyone is using cork which they probably aren’t.
Wood floor. Assume somewhat springy? ... then usually better to isolate.
Neoprene rubber of that surface area likely provides next to no isolation in the bass frequencies, and probably not much absorption. It is too stiff.
I expect the cork does not provide much isolation / absorption either. You have a large surface area and relatively low weight per surface area. That impacts the spring constant. Too stiff and you don’t isolate bass frequencies. You can get at least a bit of an idea by looking at how much it compresses when the speaker is on top. If it looks like it compresses little, then assume not much bass isolation. The problem with cork is to compress it enough to get a good spring constant for isolation, you will get to the point where cell walls collapse. w.r.t. Sound, cork is normally used for insulation, not absorption. It does not have the hysteretic losses needed for absorption unless used right in its sweet spot where it is quite good. Problem is ensuring you are using it properly.
The big granite pieces may be better transferring energy into the stiff joists of the floor. Added bracing under the floor where the speakers are can help too.
Replacing the cork/neoprene with well chosen sorbothane pucks/squares will be quite a bit better. Need to take into account speaker/platform weight, sorbothane type, and surface area. Thicker will provide more dampening. Let me know the weight of your speakers and I can give you some direction on the hardness / surface area of Sorbothane to use.
Springs will provide more isolation, but again, they must be carefully selected to get the frequency below the audible region.
Best would be a combo of springs and sorbothane to both isolate, and then damp speaker motion. Best of both worlds.
geoffkait"I agree cork is a wonderful audiophile material"
I think that the reason many people reject, undervalue, or discount cork is that it is not a engineered man made material so for those who like to read, analyze, and assess product information sheets it does not offer the same satisfaction. However for those who actually have "real world" experience which means doing, testing, and listening and not just reading and "calculating" it can be very useful, effective, and advantageous.
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