I am a fan of Chris Sommovigo's Black Cat and Airwave interconnects. I hope he does not mind me quoting him or naming him on this subject, but Chris does not mark directionality of his IC's. I recently wrote him on the subject and he responded that absent shunting off to ground/dialectric designs, the idea of wire directionality is a complete myth. Same with resistors and fuses. My hunch is that 95% of IC "manufacturers", particularly the one man operations of under $500 IC's mark directionality because they think it lends the appearance of technical sophistication and legitimacy. But even among the "big boys", the myth gets thrown around like so much accepted common knowledge. Thoughts? Someone care to educate me on how a simple IC or PC or speaker cable or fuse without a special shunting scheme can possibly have directionality? It was this comment by Stephen Mejias (then of Audioquest and in the context of Herb Reichert's review of the AQ Niagra 1000) that prompts my question;
Thank you for the excellent question. AudioQuest provided an NRG-10 AC cable for the evaluation. Like all AudioQuest cables, our AC cables use solid conductors that are carefully controlled for low-noise directionality. We see this as a benefit for all applications -- one that becomes especially important when discussing our Niagara units. Because our AC cables use conductors that have been properly controlled for low-noise directionality, they complement the Niagara System’s patented Ground-Noise Dissipation Technology. Other AC cables would work, but may or may not allow the Niagara to reach its full potential. If you'd like more information on our use of directionality to minimize the harmful effects of high-frequency noise, please visit http://www.audioquest.com/directionality-its-all-about-noise/ or the Niagara 1000's owner's manual (available on our website).
Jea48 8-16-2017 herman, and or Al, (almarg) any thoughts?
Jim (Jea48), thanks for providing the references, and the hypothesis about the possibility of the dielectric having directional properties to some degree, the dielectric being the medium through which the energy of an audio signal is transmitted.
My only thoughts about that hypothesis are general in nature. I note that one of the basic themes in the Cardas writeup on breakin seems to be that breakin involves change from a more uneven state of distribution of stored charge toward a more even state of distribution (as well as a reduction in stored charge). That would seem to me to imply that if anything a cable that is well broken in would be less likely, rather than more likely, to exhibit directional properties, if in fact the hypothesis is correct.
On the other hand, though, one doesn’t have to look far for examples of non-conducting materials that transmit certain forms of electromagnetic energy better in one direction than the other. Blacked out windows on automobiles, for example. And in the realm of electronics, there are of course devices based on semiconductors, namely diodes, that operate by having very low resistance in one direction and very high resistance in the other direction. Although in that case a junction between two different kinds of semiconductors is involved.
Even if the hypothesized phenomenon were to exist to some degree in the case of audio signal transmission, however, as with many explanations that are asserted in marketing literature and elsewhere for audio-related products and tweaks a fundamental problem is that the hypothesis does not lend itself to being analyzed (or measured) in a **quantitative** manner. And as I’ve said in various threads here, in the absence of any sort of quantitative perspective on a claimed explanation, whether or not it has a reasonable possibility of being great enough in degree to be audibly significant is unlikely to be either provable or disprovable with any conclusiveness. That, together with the ease with which extraneous variables can be overlooked when it comes to ascribing a cause to subtle sonic effects that may be perceived, are IMO major reasons why we see so many arguments about such things.
Best regards, -- Al
P.S: To Analogluvr, thanks very much for the nice words you posted here a few days ago.
almarg And as I’ve said in various threads here, in the absence of any sort of quantitative perspective on a claimed explanation, whether or not it has a reasonable possibility of being great enough in degree to be audibly significant is unlikely to be either provable or disprovable with any conclusiveness.
Oh, brother! Here we go again with the legalese snow job. ☃ Gee whiz, could you possibly be any more condescending?
Geoff, it’s one of those things where if you did not exist, the universe would have to invent you. One or the other or both. Thanks for putting up with all the crap.
No coffee in me, at least not right now. I'm thanking you for putting up with all the crap that people throw at you, and thanking you for responding to their posturing in matters scientific.
Show me the measurements. Real simple. At some point you can exaggerate the problem enough to make an observable measurement, so where is it? You’re explanations don’t even make sense if they’re true. If directionality is a good thing, why don’t amp designers put diode networks in their signal path? Probably because they tried their best to make the outputs behave as unidirectionally as possible. But now somebody wants to put directional wires on it here. Sounds nuts to me. At the very least it sounds like a recipe for distortion. It is, essentially, what you get with a push-pull output stage running a high offset.
>>>>>>You are still characterizing directionality incorrectly. It might be a good idea if you went back to the beginning of this now mature thread and read what was said, about what directionality is, how it was measured, what to do about it, etc. I am pretty sure you’ll find your concerns have already been answered or at least discussed/debated. You can measure directionality yourself, just measure *resistance* of any wire one way then reverse it and measure it again. Let us know what you find. Please keep in mind high end cable manufacturers, and high end fuse makers, at least the smart ones, have been aware of wire directionality for what, 25 years? You’re not (rpt not) the first guy to come waltzing along into one of these threads and exclaim, "what in the wide world of sports is going on here?"
Keep in mind, as I already said, I’m NOT (rpt not) saying directionality is a good thing. It’s a bad thing if it is dismissed or overlooked, at least for audiophiles. It’s something cable and fuse manufacturers and everyone should be aware of if for no other reason than to obtain max sound quality. As I’ve said before, this whole issue of wire directionality opens up a great big can of worms: IF all wire is directional what about the wire in transformers, wire in capacitors/resistors, internal wiring in electronics and speakers and even house wiring? Obviously sound, perhaps very good sound, is coming out of speakers even when wire directionality is not (rpt not) addressed. But wouldn’t better sound be uh, better?
He can't, as he has no sens of the electronic laws that all audio gear is designed and built on. All he has is his book from deepest the Africa, and that "avatar" doll of his that looks like one should stick pins into.
georgehifi "Show me the measurements. Real simple."
He can’t, as he has no sens of the electronic laws that all audio gear is designed and built on. All he has is his book from deepest the Africa, and that "avatar" doll of his that looks like one should stick pins into.
>>>>>>Real good, Georgie boy, that was almost a complete sentence. You know, you can still go back and finish high school. Do they have high schools down under. Who knows? My guess is no.
Georgie, old bean, you haven’t been able to follow the plot since day one. And you’ve officially bottomed out. How ’bout that nice cold shower now? You sure could use one.
Keep it up sunshine, your showing your ignorance. It's got nothing to do with literacy skills, it's just understanding all laws of electronics which you don't, as you've shown here and on other much higher "tech forums" that you've been laughed off from.
Georgie, one assumes you got your education from the back of a matchbook cover. You know, just based on the stupid things you say. It's sometimes better to remain silent and be thought dumb than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.
"Just a guess no one has experiment using bare uninsulated wires for ICs or speaker cables."
I have. My ESL's are each powered by a mono block. Each ESL has a step up transformer, which must be resistor tuned. I put the resistor externally; more precisely, I connected mono block to speaker with nichrome wire, uninsulated so that it can dissipate heat. Thus the surrounding air is the dielectric.
For safety, I now cover half of each speaker wire with a loose covering of teflon, so that they cannot arc. Virtually no contact between conductor and dielectric, so no difference in sound.
There’s no (rpt no) real reason to worry about whether the dielectric may or may not be directional. The much larger issue is the directionality of the wire itself. The directionality of wire used in high end cables, at least by the smart manufacturers, is controlled by determining directionality of the wire as it comes off the spool. A simple resistance measurement of a length of wire taken from the spool reveals the proper direction for the entire spool. Then one would only need to mark the spool FORWARD or BACKWARD. Problem solved. This is not rocket science, gentle readers. The much bigger issue - as I have repeatedly pointed out - is that since ALL WIRE IS DIRECTIONAL then all internal wiring in speakers and electronics, all wire in transformers, all wires in capacitors, etc. should also be controlled by all the various manufacturers for best results. And this would be true whether the wire was used in a DC circuit or an AC circuit.
Furthermore, the tiny little wire in all fuses is bare. Air is the best dielectric but air is not directional. And since ALL fuses are directional we can probably conclude it’s the wire itself, not (rpt not) the dielectric material, at least not (rpt not) to any significant degree. This whole wire directionality thing is actually an excellent example of Occam’s razor: Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In the case of two possibile explanations the simpler one is usually the correct or better one. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is.
A simple resistance measurement of a length of wire taken from the spool reveals the proper direction for the entire spool.
This indicates the simple resistance measurement will show differences in the resistance of the same piece of wire depending on directionality, correct? If so, would the manufacturer then orient the wire direction for their cables/fuses so the signal flow is in the direction with the lowest resistance? Do you have any idea what the delta in directional resistance might be for a typical audio cable, say an 8-foot speaker cable with cross-sectional area of 12 awg? How about expressed as a percent of the total resistance? Is resistance the only electrical property affected by wire directionality?
Further to the above, I forgot that about 20 years ago, when I saw IC costs going stratospheric, I decided to do an experiment.
I built a cabinet for ARC SP10 pre-amp and Nakamichi CR7, which was a Faraday cage. I then noted that, at line levels, capacitance was the enemy, not inductance, so I found some very pure 4 nines silver 24 AWG and had it gold plated.
I drilled holes in the bulkhead between the ARC and the Nak which were 2" apart and threaded bare wires through them, and then protected the wires with 0.375 teflon tubing, which touched the wires scarcely at all. Thus, compared to conventional co-ax of whatever manufacture, dielectric absorption was near zero, as was capacitance. Cables were 26 inches and terminated with ETI RCA's.
I was then in a position to conduct a single-blind experiment of theoretically optimal cables compared to Canare Starquad. An expert test subject (my long suffering wife) was unable to detect the difference reliably. Of less interest, because I was not a blind subject, I was also unable to hear the difference.
This is NOT definitive because the subject was not required to make many, many repeated observations for statistical analysis. But the point was clear: there ARE things that yield readily detectable differences, like turntables, tonearms, cartridges, SUT's, tubes, pre-amp topology, power supplies, capacitors, resistors, amplifier topology, and speakers.
So the latter is where I spend my money.
So, Jea, just for the record, the test has been done.
mitch2 Geoffkait: A simple resistance measurement of a length of wire taken from the spool reveals the proper direction for the entire spool.
This indicates the simple resistance measurement will show differences in the resistance of the same piece of wire depending on directionality, correct?
>>>>Yes
If so, would the manufacturer then orient the wire direction for their cables/fuses so the signal flow is in the direction with the lowest resistance?
>>>>Fuses are not controlled for directivity as far as I know, only cables with directional arrows. That's why fuse manufacturers tell customers to try them both ways. Yes, the lower resistance would be in the direction of toward the speakers.
Do you have any idea what the delta in directional resistance might be for a typical audio cable, say an 8-foot speaker cable with cross-sectional area of 12 awg?
>>>>No
How about expressed as a percent of the total resistance?
>>>>>Dunno.
Is resistance the only electrical property affected by wire directionality?
Further to the above, I forgot that about 20 years ago, when I saw IC costs going stratospheric, I decided to do an experiment.
I
built a cabinet for ARC SP10 pre-amp and Nakamichi CR7, which was a
Faraday cage. I then noted that, at line levels, capacitance was the
enemy, not inductance, so I found some very pure 4 nines silver 24 AWG
and had it gold plated.
I drilled holes in the bulkhead between
the ARC and the Nak which were 2" apart and threaded bare wires through
them, and then protected the wires with 0.375 teflon tubing, which
touched the wires scarcely at all. Thus, compared to conventional co-ax
of whatever manufacture, dielectric absorption was near zero, as was
capacitance. Cables were 26 inches and terminated with ETI RCA's.
I
was then in a position to conduct a single-blind experiment of
theoretically optimal cables compared to Canare Starquad. An expert test
subject (my long suffering wife) was unable to detect the difference
reliably. Of less interest, because I was not a blind subject, I was
also unable to hear the difference.
This is NOT definitive
because the subject was not required to make many, many repeated
observations for statistical analysis. But the point was clear: there
ARE things that yield readily detectable differences, like turntables,
tonearms, cartridges, SUT's, tubes, pre-amp topology, power supplies,
capacitors, resistors, amplifier topology, and speakers.
So the latter is where I spend my money.
Terry9,
Thanks for the reponse.
Next question. When you built the ICs by chance did you run the two wires as they come off the spoil in the same same direction? Or did you reverse one in the oppit direction?
I assume you used solid core wire. Is that correct? By chance did you ever try reversing the ICs and check to see if the ICs were directional?
I stumbled across a very curious phenomena pertaining to cable dielectric at work the other day. Nobody that i have discussed the matter with can explain what is happening, yet they have seen the very easily measured and duplicated results that i’m obtaining and can’t deny them.
I have ideas as to what is causing this curious phenomena, but don’t want to speak up about this as of yet. I will say that what i’m seeing tends to make me believe that dielectrics, which aren’t supposed to conduct, have a polarity / directionality to them i.e. they conduct better in one direction than in another.
I know that some companies already have cabling on the market that supposedly deals with this subject, but i don’t think that they fully understand exactly what is going on here. I just hope that Clark Johnsen doesn’t see this. Something about polarity based issues tends to get him in all worked up : ) Sean
I will say that what i’m seeing tends to make me believe that dielectrics, which aren’t supposed to conduct, have a polarity / directionality to them i.e. they conduct better in one direction than in another.
Sean never said how he conducted the test. Any thoughts on his comments?
I can certainly see why someone might reverse the cable and think the difference in sound was due to the dielectric material, not the wire itself. Even if the tester believed wire was directional how could he separate the effects of the wire directionality from the effects of the dielectric dirctionality, assuming there was any? We have seen a similar situation with the fuse holder being given full credit for fuse directionality. We see all manner of theories that avoid the elephant in the room.
Solid. They came off the spool and went to the plating company. No, I did not reverse them. I did not then, nor do I now, expect there to be a perceptible difference. I no longer spend much time on interconnects, for the reasons stated.
Jim, re your question about Sean's post that you quoted, I looked at all of his posts in that thread, and many of those provided in it by others. As you alluded to, no specifics were presented, and so I have no idea as to what sort of "curious phenomena" he may have been referring to.
About all I can say about his post is that he should have said "phenomenon," not "phenomena." :-)
Solid. They came off the spool and went to the plating company. No, I did not reverse them. I did not then, nor do I now, expect there to be a perceptible difference. I no longer spend much time on interconnects, for the reasons stated.
terry9,
thanks for the response. By chance did you read the AA link?
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....
One more comment on the guy's comment about directionality of dielectric material. He used the term polarity/directionality which is actually a bit of a misnomer since directionality isn't polarity at all. We know what correct polarity and inverted polarity are and directionality of fuses or cable or wire is neither.
Quoted from AA: If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
On the other hand, though, if the signal and return wires are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then if the cable is constructed in a symmetrical manner (i.e., both conductors identical, and not having a shield grounded at just one end), then reversing the direction of the cable should make no difference **even if** the conductors are intrinsically directional. Unless, that is, the dielectric (as opposed to the conductors) somehow causes a difference.
If the two conductors in a symmetrically designed cable are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then no matter which way the cable is connected the two conductors will **both** always be in the allegedly "correct" direction for half of each cycle, and the allegedly "incorrect" direction for the other half of each cycle. That follows from what I said in an earlier post in this thread:
Almarg 8-14-2017 When "the current" is traveling away from the component in one of the two conductors it is traveling toward the component in the other of the two conductors.
And it is **always** traveling through the input circuit of the component in one direction or the other, aside from the brief instant during each cycle at which the applied voltage crosses zero, and the direction changes.
(To add context, I had put quotation marks around "the current" to distinguish it from the electromagnetic energy of "the signal," that is conducted via the dielectric).
So the AA member’s statement seems to me to be self-contradictory. He’s saying that wires are directional, but putting the two wires in directions that would allow the cable to exhibit their alleged directionality will produce bad results.
Quoted from AA: If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
On the other hand, though, if the signal and return wires are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then if the cable is constructed in a symmetrical manner (i.e., both conductors identical, and not having a shield grounded at just one end), then reversing the direction of the cable should make no difference **even if** the conductors are intrinsically directional. Unless, that is, the dielectric (as opposed to the conductors) somehow causes a difference.
If the two conductors in a symmetrically designed cable are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then no matter which way the cable is connected the two conductors will **both** always be in the allegedly "correct" direction for half of each cycle, and the allegedly "incorrect" direction for the other half of each cycle. That follows from what I said in an earlier post in this thread:
Almarg 8-14-2017 When "the current" is traveling away from the component in one of the two conductors it is traveling toward the component in the other of the two conductors.
And it is **always** traveling through the input circuit of the component in one direction or the other, aside from the brief instant during each cycle at which the applied voltage crosses zero, and the direction changes.
(To add context, I had put quotation marks around "the current" to distinguish it from the electromagnetic energy of "the signal," that being conducted via the dielectric).
So the AA member’s statement seems to me to be self-contradictory. He’s saying that wires are directional, but putting the two wires in directions that would allow the cable to exhibit their alleged directionality will produce bad results.
Best regards, -- Al
Al, I tend to agree with you on this statement,
On the other hand, though, if the signal and return wires are run in opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then if the cable is constructed in a symmetrical manner (i.e., both conductors identical, and not having a shield grounded at just one end), then reversing the direction of the cable should make no difference **even if** the conductors are intrinsically directional. Unless, that is, the dielectric (as opposed to the conductors) somehow causes a difference.
Rereading Bob’s post he says solid core wire is extremely directional. He is speaking of the wire itself. His comments in his post are about running the direction of the hot/signal and ground/return in opposite directions, as you well noted. Bob really doesn’t say, I don’t believe, the final product build of the two wires, interconnect, is directional though. In fact the thread is about the construction/building of the interconnect and running the two conductors in opposite directions.
Glad I could help! I think once that there are definitive FM measurements available on wire that this swapping ends will become clear, but in the meantime building wire is an artform once you get beyond the simple measurements such as inductance, capacitance and resistance....Jon Risch posted a bibliography recently and I noticed that some folks are doing some FM measurements trying to get a handle on some of the effects that are easily heard in a good system....My partner, John Curl, has a wonderful bench and can measure down to one part in a million as respects AM measurements, but it is obvious that we are measuring the wrong things as respects wire. These are exciting times and the music will be better served once we can measure these effects that are so easily heard.....In the meantime enjoy your project and note that some of the cost of the commercial interconnects went into a lot of time spent listening to different permutations...
Thoughts?
.
SOooo back to square one, other than cables using a shield that is connected to one end how come some cables are directional? I for one have heard it for myself. I have a few pairs of old Audiquest solid core silver Diamond X2 SE and solid core silver Lapis X2 SE ICs and years ago I could hear a slight difference when they were flipped end for end.
A few years ago I borrowed a pair of Clear Day solid core silver SE ICs which are also sold as being directional. And yes through experimenting with them they are indeed directional. At least on my audio system. I should mention my son could also hear the difference with the Audioquest cables as well as the Clear Day cables.
And then there are the digital cables which you and I have discussed before. And I agree with your reasoning why they are, can be, directional. The fact still remains, they are, can be, directional. And as I still say today, flip them digital cables with RCA ends end to end to hear what sounds best. One way will sound slightly better than the other.
Note: there is no reason why stranded cables shouldn’t also be "very directional," since even teeny tiny wires suffer the same indignities when being pulled through the final die as thicker wires -- assuming all the tiny little strands of wire are all pointed in the same direction, resistance wise. I suspect that is probably the case since it doesn’t make sense that stranded cables would be constructed any other way, in a random way. But who knows? Be that as it may, directionality of stranded cables can be controlled during manufacture just like solid core cables. Power cords which I’m pretty sure are usually stranded should be controlled for directionality just like fuses in AC circuits, right?
Jea48 8-18-2017 Rereading Bob’s post he says solid core wire is extremely directional. He is speaking of the wire itself. His comments in his post are about running the direction of the hot/signal and ground/return in opposite directions, as you well noted. Bob really doesn’t say, I don’t believe, the final product build of the two wires, interconnect, is directional though. In fact the thread is about the construction/building of the interconnect and running the two conductors in opposite directions.
Yes, I see that now, Jim. He does not say, at least in that thread, that cables are directional; he is just addressing the wire itself. Yet it is also true, as we are saying, that the cable configuration he recommends would negate the intrinsic directionality he is attributing to the wire itself.
As for the "why" of whatever intrinsic directionality wire may possess, I note that even he says "I don’t want to speculate why wire is directional." Although he also says that "it appears to be an FM distortion." FM distortion, phase distortion, and timing jitter are inter-related concepts. And as you alluded to, and I indicated earlier in the thread, timing jitter resulting from VSWR (reflection) effects figures to be the basis of directionality in digital cables. But I have no idea how at analog audio frequencies a symmetrically designed cable might introduce differing amounts of FM or phase distortion depending on which way it is connected.
Yes, I see that now, Jim. He does not say, at least in that thread, that cables are directional; he is just addressing the wire itself. Yet it is also true, as we are saying, that the cable configuration he recommends would negate the intrinsic directionality he is attributing to the wire itself.
Yet it is also true, as we are saying, that the cable configuration he recommends would negate the intrinsic directionality he is attributing to the wire itself.
But do we really know that?
I need to search the archives on AA and look for any posts of Bob’s where he may have actually spoke of directionality of ICs using solid core conductors.
Al, Question. Does the hot/signal conductor, of an IC, hold any more importance carrying the audio signal from the source to the load than the ground/return conductor? If yes please explain. If not please explain.
As for the "why" of whatever intrinsic directionality wire may possess, I note that even he says "I don’t want to speculate why wire is directional." Although he also says that "it appears to be an FM distortion." FM distortion, phase distortion, and timing jitter are inter-related concepts. And as you alluded to, and I indicated earlier in the thread, timing jitter resulting from VSWR (reflection) effects figures to be the basis of directionality in digital cables. But I have no idea how at analog audio frequencies a symmetrically designed cable might introduce differing amounts of FM or phase distortion depending on which way it is connected.
I may try contacting John Curl next week and ask him his thoughts on the subject. I believe he still frequents the DIY audio forum.
Huh? Not sure what you guys are arguing about. Obviously Bob thinks wire per se is very directional. He actually said extremely directional. The only question is if he’s right the way he places the directional wires in the cable - one wire in one direction and the other wire in the opposite direction. Why would he *intentionally* construct a cable to be non-optimal knowing wire is very directional? He wouldn’t. As I’ve stated previously, both wires should actualy be in the same direction, not opposite directions. You do not (rpt not) have to worry about any signal or current or voltage moving toward the wall outlet. Only the ones moving toward the speakers. That’s why fuses which have only a single wire are directional in AC circuits.
Of the Curl, Thompson, Crump CTC company members Bob had (by far) the best ears. That’s why his primary job at CTC was deciding which capacitors to use, which wire to use, which cables to use for the very advanced CTC Blowtorch preamp and the Bar B Que amplifier, the precursor of the JC 1 amp. Curl was the circuit guy, Thompson the topology guy. I was with Curl and Crump twice at CES, isolating the electronics including the Number Cruncher DAC with my Sub Hertz Nimbus iso platform.
Geoffkait 8-19-2017
Huh? Not sure what you guys are arguing about.
Jim and I are not arguing, Geoff. We're having what I would consider to be an intelligent discussion of sincere and intelligent questions. That despite the fact that our opinions on the matter do not particularly coincide.
Almarg 8-18-2017
Yet it is also true, as we are saying, that the cable configuration he
recommends would negate the intrinsic directionality he is attributing
to the wire itself.
Jea48 8-18-2017
But do we really know that?
It seems to me that it is a necessary consequence of what I stated earlier:
Almarg 8-18-2017
If the two conductors in a symmetrically designed cable are run in
opposite directions (relative to what came off of the spool), then no
matter which way the cable is connected the two conductors will **both**
always be in the allegedly "correct" direction for half of each cycle,
and the allegedly "incorrect" direction for the other half of each
cycle. That follows from what I said in an earlier post in this thread:
Almarg 8-14-2017
When "the current" is traveling away from the component in one of the
two conductors it is traveling toward the component in the other of the
two conductors.
And it is **always** traveling through the input
circuit of the component in one direction or the other, aside from the
brief instant during each cycle at which the applied voltage crosses
zero, and the direction changes.
(To add context, I had
put quotation marks around "the current" to distinguish it from the
electromagnetic energy of "the signal," that being conducted via the
dielectric).
It would be a different story, as Geoff indicated, if the cable were constructed with both conductors in the same direction. In that situation, **if** the conductors are in fact intrinsically directional to an audibly significant degree, in a given application, then reversing the cable would make a difference.
Jea48 8-19-2017
Al, Question. Does the hot/signal conductor, of an IC, hold any
more importance carrying the audio signal from the source to the load
than the ground/return conductor? If yes please explain. If not please explain.
I would put it that in the case of an unbalanced line-level analog interconnect the hot/signal conductor may actually be **less** important than the ground/return conductor. For a couple of reasons:
(a)The resistance, inductance, perhaps skin effect, and perhaps other characteristics of the ground/return conductor may affect the amplitude and spectral characteristics of ground loop-related high frequency noise and/or low frequency hum.
(b)Those characteristics of the ground/return conductor may also affect the extent to which a small fraction of the current in the hot/signal conductor may follow a return path other than that ground/return conductor. Such as the AC power wiring (as in a ground loop), or possibly even the ground/return conductor of the cable for the other channel.
However, while those two factors can certainly be expected to have sonic consequences in some applications, and while they can create slight inequalities in the current being conducted in the two wires, I'm not sure how or if they might have a relation to directionality.
Obviously Bob thinks wire per se is very directional. He actually said
extremely directional. The only question is if he’s right the way he
places the directional wires in the cable - one wire in one direction
and the other wire in the opposite direction. Why would he
*intentionally* construct a cable to be non-optimal knowing wire is very
directional? He wouldn’t.
I am beginning to think Bob didn't mention to test the final product for directionality, there in what sounds best to the listener in his audio system, in the thread per say because to Bob it was a given.
This post is from Greg R. He is discussing the directionality of the completed interconnected cable he made.
Thanks, I agree with your view on this. I just
reversed the ICs and the image height did seem a bit lower. Most
everything else also sounded worse, and it seems like I had lost some
smoothness and the overnight break-in period. This may have been due to: #1)the wire direction makes a difference, or #2)the way the cable was broken in overnight in one direction. I think both #1 and #2.
I don't know exactly why they sound a tiny bit better in one
direction, but one thing I do know for sure. I am very thankful for all
the good advise, as these IC's sound very clean and vivid, with a
dynamic smooth sound. I feel alot closer to the music. One of the things
I like the most is the way drum whacks and rim shots are propelled at
me. It's so unrestrained and vivid, it actually makes me blink, or
cringe! Not bad for $30 IC's! I would recommend people to pause and
think about this, before laying down some big bucks for some factory
made IC's. I'm already looking forward to my next project, the "Bus Mechanic" speaker wire. ;~) Best Wishes, Greg R.
As I’ve stated previously, both wires should actualy be in the same direction, not opposite directions.
What proof can you provide? Actual experimentation building an IC and listening for the differences? You of all people should know that is the final test. What the listener hears.
Again, what Bob said he found from his listening tests designing his ICs.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same
direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or
close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the
middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the
stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the
stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all
over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same
direction....
Steve, I don't want to speculate why wire is directional,
but it is as poor Greg has found in a later post....I spent about three
months playing with such things before I released my commercial
interconnects and speaker wire and went about as crazy as Greg is going
right now and can't tell you how much wire I trashed as I forgot to mark
it with some masking take as I took it off the spool....Directionality
in wire will be measured some day as it appears to be an FM distortion
and wandering pianos (small phase changes with frequency) will be a
thing of the past. Until then use your ears to discern directionality
of wire. Stranded wire likely suffers from a lack of focus compared to
solid core as some of the strands go one way and some the other, but
this is pure speculation on my part.....Just enjoy the ride!
The final test for any piece of audio equipment is the listening, voicing test, as you well know. You can use test equipment and bench test all you want but the final test is done with the ears. In the end that is the most important test. At ARC the final test is the Warren Test. If Warren doesn't like how a piece of equipment sounds it doesn't leave the factory. It goes back out on the bench and somebody has to then find out why.
Here is an excerpt from an interview with John Curl several years ago.
While mylars are fairly efficient from a size and cost point of view, we realized they have problems with dielectric absorption. I didn’t believe it at first. I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could 'hear the caps' and I thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about? Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line
to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody.
Years ago, there was a time when people used to think you could have a two- or four-foot path difference between loudspeaker components; like the Klipschorn, for example. Everyone said this time difference was inaudible, and it didn’t really matter because Bell Labs' research, Ohm’s law of acoustics, Helmholtz and all these other people believed that the ear was completely insensitive to phase. So it didn’t matter how you built the speaker as long as it sort of averaged out sort of okay in the room. You could take five microphones and measure them all together, if that measured out okay within a few DB’s then heck with it. Well, that really isn’t true and of course when stereo came along all of a sudden you had these big Klipschorns and they wouldn’t image for anything. At least that was my personal experience. I owned them and I was a believer too. Then I started measuring them and I said 'oh my goodness, this is a
problem.' The late Richard Heyser tried to tell people that a two foot path difference might be audible. People were going crazy and saying this was impossible and it was a big controversy. Now, of course, no fool would design a speaker with a two- or four-foot path difference. John Dunlavy was very outspoken on the Internet this week, criticizing a loudspeaker that wasn’t completely phase aligned to within one inch. See how we change. I don’t disagree with John Dunlavy, although I do think he is overstating his case in this particular one. But, there was a time when we didn’t. The same thing happens with capacitors. There was a time when we didn’t know better and we just used any old capacitor as
long as it had the right values.
On another audio forum, which I will not mention its' name, there is a thread running where the OP asked a question about interconnect break-in. He had recently bought a new pair of ICs and was not happy with the way they sounded new out of the box.
To date the majority of posts, reponses, from others on the thread say break-in, burn-in, settle-in, what ever you want to call it, is a myth. There is no such thing as cable break-in no mater if the cable is new or has "X" amount of listening to music time on it. It's all just a sales pitch by the cables manufactures so you won't try to return the cables.
Jea48 8-19-2017 Al, Question. Does the hot/signal conductor, of an IC, hold any more importance carrying the audio signal from the source to the load than the ground/return conductor? If yes please explain. If not please explain.
almarg: 8/19/17 I would put it that in the case of an unbalanced line-level analog interconnect the hot/signal conductor may actually be **less** important than the ground/return conductor. For a couple of reasons:
(a)The resistance, inductance, perhaps skin effect, and perhaps other characteristics of the ground/return conductor may affect the amplitude and spectral characteristics of ground loop-related high frequency noise and/or low frequency hum.
(b)Those characteristics of the ground/return conductor may also affect the extent to which a small fraction of the current in the hot/signal conductor may follow a return path other than that ground/return conductor. Such as the AC power wiring (as in a ground loop), or possibly even the ground/return conductor of the cable for the other channel.
jea48 response: Al, that might be the reason why I have read many DIY cable builders say they increase the equivalent wire gauge size of the ground/return wire in their DIY ICs
almarg: 8/19/17 However, while those two factors can certainly be expected to have sonic consequences in some applications, and while they can create slight inequalities in the current being conducted in the two wires, I’m not sure how or if they might have a relation to directionality.
Best regards, -- Al
jea48: And there is the rub. The why. Bob Crump found it existed by experimenting and listening, the same way, imo, any designer of audio equipment does. Design it, built it, listen to it. If it doesn’t sound right measure it if possible. Tweak it, listen to it, and so on.
Bob admitted in the thread he couldn’t explain why he could hear directionality in solid core wire. He had theories. He admitted he couldn’t bench test what he was hearing with any test equipment know to him at the time, year 2000. To date it seems it still can not be measured, tested, with any available test equipment.
It’s a shame Bob didn’t live long enough to see the HiFi Tuning data sheets on fuse directionality. Everyone talks about wire directionality but no one does anything about it. If only Bob and Curl had experimented with fuse direction back then they would have known the answer.
Question to self: can’t anyone measure the resistance (conductivity) of a cable or wire or fuse in both directions? Duh! Why don’t they? They’d rather fight than switch. The pathological skeptics seem to be getting up a full head of steam. Think I'll take cover.
but nobody has ever measured directional wire or fuses. I'd say that's because it doesn't exist. Pathological denial of the existence of a phenomenon beyond measurement? I guess if rational thought is pathological, I'm guilty.
kosst_amojan 138 posts 08-21-2017 10:16pm Huh.... Can’t measure it? That’s the problem with things that exist purely in your head, isn’t it? I mean, we live in a say when we can study the most microscopic, nuanced phenomenon in the universe with obscene precision, but nobody has ever measured directional wire or fuses. I’d say that’s because it doesn’t exist. Pathological denial of the existence of a phenomenon beyond measurement? I guess if rational thought is pathological, I’m guilty.
What a drama queen! You just can’t read. Directionality has already been measured. If you would do your homework you’d know that. What I meant was, if you would slow down and use your ears instead of your mouth, is that you naysayers, specifically, won’t (rpt won't) measure it. You know, use a volt ohm meter and measure the resistance. Then you would know. Follow? But, no you pathological naysayers would rather keep yakking. Is that rational?
georgehifi but nobody has ever measured directional wire or fuses. I’d say that’s because it doesn’t exist. Pathological denial of the existence of a phenomenon beyond measurement? I guess if rational thought is pathological, I’m guilty. +1, it’s all voodoo, led by you know who.
Some of this stuff is so simple and so easy to get to the truth.
Not being an engineer, or designer, or even producer of bulk wire, but just an end user and former electrical & electronics worker and technician and audio hobbyist for some decades, I’ll bite.
The ONLY directional cabling I know of are those with the little T former IMP matching boxes, and power cords.
Though, Power Cords especially. Why?
Because you can not reverse the ends. They don’t fit. Even if you push really hard!!
As for all other cables, SE/XLR IC, speaker wires, USB, Ethernet, HP cables, barring termination issues, and UNLESS there is an arrow printed on the exterior of the cable jackets, they MUST be bi-directional cables.
(Hint – if no cop is seen, use cables in either direction)
If an arrow is adorning the exterior of a cable, I’ll simply abide by the implied wishes of the maker… until it gets removed and later re inserted, then its anybody’s guess which way one or both wires wind up being connected….. and BTW…. I’ve yet to hear either alterations or degredations to the audio.
Nearly ALL connecting and speaker wires are bi directional for one simple reason. Cost.
Does anyone know exactly how much it costs for cable makers to have itty bitty microscopic signs made up for the electrons so they’ll know which way traffic should flow?
Its immense! And, there must be many of them posted all along the lengths of the conductors!
You will need “This way” signs on one side of each conductor, and “Wrong way’ signs on the other side of every conductor. Although there is an argument for having only one of each at opposite ends of each conductor.
It could run a cable manufacturer into bankruptcy! Although it opens the door for a brand new industry and more jobs.
Naturally people would simply transition from making tiny scarecrows and Elvis manikins for Ant farms as the onset of miniature crows infesting current ant Farm crops are at all time lows.
Of course, even proper signage won’t always keep traffic flowing properly. There will always be those electrons that are texting and driving or watching Youtube on their cell phones. Usually, it’s the more immature electrons who transgress.
Don’t believe me…. As is always the case here… try reversing one or both supposed directional cables and listen for yourself over the course of a few days or a week!!!
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