Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)

Jazz, sorry for intruding on your soapbox.   Good luck with your endeavors.

IMHO Ted at SR puts out a disclaimer and I think it is more likely that a manufacturer keeps the same process (why change?). AMR produced fuses en masse as did Isoclean and for the aforementioned brand, they are, so far, consistent IME (same as HiFi). Another indicator is that HiFiTuning users have consistently reported the direction in the same way as some SR users. Thanks Charles1dad and others for sharing this. It is people like you that has made this hobby more fun and trustworthy for me as I have made most of my purchases based on comments on the Gon. People like GK, though a bit overzealous in postings for my liking, seems to be genuinely interested to find out/help out. He may know that nerdy people can at times put off people (polarizing is only good for electric components) and sympathy counts when buying gear, hel-loo :-). May I also suggest using PMs (e.g. to mapman) instead of a public shout out? Thank you!

As for the circuitry, I know what upstream is as I have the schematics of the amp. Before submitting this dreaded thread, I have the following strategy: try first the fuses on L+R channels with open cover, assuming the fuses are labeled in the same way and proceed from there. Now I will resort to making sure that the 3 main channels (L, R, C) sound coherent. I simply don’t have time for the other channels and will assume that the labeling process is less random that I hoped for. This should be a 1-month project, included bypassing some caps, not a lifetime trial and error. I dread of the amp surviving me.

Again I would like to stump on the example of coupling caps (in tube amps, etc) where most manufacturers don’t care to implement it the correct way (aka polarity/direction), leaving improvements to modding shops and aware DIYphiles (wait, do I smell a conspiracy?).

Lesson learned, early adopters (we should have been over that for fuses but obviously we’re not) pay the price/scrutiny.

I sensed that the fire on my stake seems to fizzle out, you all have my gratitude for that!

Mapman, you probably didn’t get the memo. Fuses are not only directional in DC circuits, they’re directional in AC circuits, too. You know, when the alternating current is moving in the correct direction the voltage drop is measured as lower across the fuse than when the current is moving in the other direction. Capish? Yes, I know you wish only to learn, Grasshopper.  But first you have to put on your thinking cap.

" If a component has more than one fuse use a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to determine direction of current in the circuit. "

The problem with this of course as many have pointed out repeatedly in various threads is with alternating current direction switches many times per minute.

As I understand it it is possible to determine power flow direction in an AC line, for example with an overhead transmission line which way is the source (the power plant). With a circuit schematic perhaps it is possible to determine which way to the components power supply from any particular fuse location? That would be a question for Almarg or other EEs perhaps to answer.

The thing is assuming fuses are directional and that orientation is a significant factor for best sound, you would look for devices that have the directions clearly indicated somehow plus a fuse with the same so things can be done easily without an electronics background. If all that is true but no indicators, someone in design was asleep at the wheel and the customers are paying the price to have to figure it all out.

Could you imagine buying an expensive portable device using 19 batteries in 19 different locations and no indicators which way to place each? That is essentially the worst case scenario for teh NAD assuming fuse direction always matters.

This popped up during an Internet search. It’s written by Ted at Synergistic Research. What he’s saying here is that the lettering on the fuse is only a tool to show the direction of the fuse before you reverse it, so you won’t lose track and accidentally insert it the same way as before. I.e., The fuse lettering doesn’t really go in the direction of current. You have to try the fuse both ways. Hel-loo!

"In my experience nearly all fuses are directional including SR Quantum Fuses. I recommend you try them in one component at at time and experiment with directionality. You should immediately notice a preference for one direction or the other. If a component has more than one fuse use a DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to determine direction of current in the circuit. Once you know the direction of current in each fuse holder place all fuses in like direction paying attention to have the letters on the SR Quantum Fuses all in the same direction either reading in the direction of signal flow, or against. Next switch direction and the correct match to your component should be readily apparent. There are just too many variables for me to make a blanket recommendation for all components when such a simple and definitive test is available."

Hello Mapman,
The lettering on the Synergistic Research fuse reads the standard left to right direction. In my DAC the fuse holder is orientated L to R.  In my Coincident components the  fuse is inserted into the rear fuse holder in a back to front orientation.  So the lettering is read as first letter begins at the component rear and last letter towards the front of the component.
Charles, 

"With 19 fuses and either direction the choice, if my math still works correctly, I think that would be 2e19 combinations, which would be fun to perform and see what the optimal combination was by listening. Could be a hobby for lifetime and then some."

The correct way to look at the situation mathematically is that if you replace all existing stock fuses with aftermarket fuses at the same time - without any thought as to each fuse’s orientation - simply by chance approximately 50% of the new fuses will be inserted correctly, let’s say 10 fuses, more or less. So you're already halfway there without doing anything yet. Allow fuses to burn in for say 100 hours to give yourself a better chance of hearing differences in directionality. Then, reverse fuses one at a time and audition the sound after each fuse reversal. You should be able to tell whether the sound improves or degrades each time. If the sound degrades put the fuse back the way it was. It should get easier to decide the correct direction of each subsequent fuse since the sound quality will improve as more and more fuses become correctly inserted. If you're unsure about a particular fuse leave it as it is. You will come back to it later.

After you have completed auditioning all 19 fuses the probability will be much higher that all fuses are now in the correct orientation. It would not be unusual that during the whole auditioning process there was some uncertainty about one or more fuses’ orientation. For that reason the entire auditioning process should be performed again. The second time around, with most fuses inserted correctly already, thus with higher system resolution and sound quality, it should be much easier to ascertain which direction is correct for each fuse.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
no goats, no glory

Somewhere else on another thread about fuses someone asked the manufacturer as to the direction of the signal as it goes its way and he was told "from the inside out". I'm assuming it's from the center (somewhat) to an outer edge.

Good luck and all the best,
Nonoise

With 19 fuses and either direction the choice, if my math still works correctly, I think that would be 2e19 combinations, which would be fun to perform and see what the optimal combination was by listening.  Could be a hobby for lifetime and then some.

Charles when you say they go in the direction of the writing. Which way is that?  

For or example batteries are marked positive and negative ends making them directional. With out doubt.    But if the battery compartment does not have similar indicators. You don't know which way to oeient them properly.  

Donthe he devices the directional fuses go into have some similar indicator or other way of telling?

I have no authority really to undermine.   Just another Shlub trying to figure things out. 🤔

Many have mentioned that the manufacturer may put on markings on a whim or can change the process so that the markings are done on the other end. Sure, it can and probably has happened for smaller batches. I am just trying to get a consensus so that I am best prepared for the starting position, which may be the best guess.

Charles,
thanks for your feedback on SR fuses and happy to learn that SR has the same process for both red and black.
You’re absolutely right and, as mentioned before, I really appreciate the vast knowledge and the logical approach Al adopts in his comments. I quoted him exactly because he is an authority in his field and wanted to counter others who may use his words to put more fire on the wood. Also because I know he won’t be easily offended/stirred and am sure before he posts, he will read mine so he knows I have no intention to undermine his authority.
Now if I had quoted mapman or GK,...

Any best experience from NAD M25/M27 owners (which fuse worked best)?

Jazz,
I'm can appreciate your efforts for specific information about fuse direction. My experience with the SR Red  and Black fuses is they generally go in the direction of the writing. I would still suggest reversing direction as there always seems to be individual component exceptions. Without exception so far I hear noticeable differences in sound based on direction. I trust what I hear and leave the bickering for those so inclined. 
Jazz I'm glad you recognize that Al isn't an agitator who just wants to stir things up. 
Charles, 

How does one know if the markings are placed in the proper orientation by the seller? If the seller manufactures the fuses and determines the correct orientation or if he buys them OEM and places them a certain way during the treatment process, then all you have to do is ask him. Otherwise, whatever comments are offered are meaningless since the fuses are randomly oriented when marked.

Almarg, as always, I very much appreciate your comments and knowledge. FYI I have been using aftermarket fuses since 2009, thank god I haven’t come out with it then as some on this and certainly on the other thread would have mentally burnt me on a stick.

My answer is less geared to you but more for those who landed here: first of all, the $ ratio between devices and "infrastructure" (*) is a function of the eye (ear) of the beholder. As an owner of HFC cables, I know that many have "overinvested" in magnetic cables, following their addiction. The question begs: if a $1k device, be it in the form of magnets with cables or "just fuses", can elevate the sound into a system that is $10k more (I know it gets fuzzy here), it may constitute a good ROI. In my case, I buy AMR fuses under $3 (no trailing zeros!) each. Rest assured, the main fuse is and will/should remain the most expensive one, then comes the four fuses for both channels. My total investment is est. around $400, a price of a power cord upgrade. Now if I would post a new thread asking advice for a power cord upgrade, I wouldn’t be chastized as much as here on this very thread.
Lastly, if one followed my threads, I have asked for a worthy successor of my NAD M25 months ago, no replies (maybe my thread on the NAD M25 wasn’t controversial enough) so either no interest or no valid alternative.

As mentioned on my systems page, regular visits to music events and sanity checks in the mirror (aka wallet) helps to mitigate straying too much from the path.

Now, again, besides the regulars here, would anyone share his/her experience on the direction of fuses?

(*) I have denominated infrastructure devices like isolation tweaks, cables, power conditioning, etc that enables/empowers the system. Some here on the Gon go as far (read crazy for the non-believers) as 70% invested in infrastructure.

My lip is fine.

Hey, whaddya know? Al and I finally agreed on something. Try the fuse both ways. Halleluja! I have a feeling Mapman is probably biting his lip about now.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms rite

Great post almarg.
Though I did not think it would do much, changing the amps mains fuse to a HifiTuning fuse did result in a change in the sound of my stereo. (note: I bought the last of the previous version HifiTuning fuses at a discount-$80 bucks for a fuse is kinda silly, to me).
As far as directionality, I thought I noticed a difference, but I haven't had time to do a more 'controlled' test to confirm my suspicions. Contact me directly if you want more details.
Since I am always looking for the best bang for the buck (My system is Vandersteen/Zu, McCormack and Schiit), I would suggest looking at Acme Fuses. SMc thinks highly of this brand and they are more reasonably priced.
HTH Bob

Although like several of the others I have nothing constructive to say in response to the specific question that was asked, I can't help but question the wisdom of spending what figures to be $1000 to $2000, or possibly even more, on fuse upgrades for a 7-channel amplifier that sold for $2500 to $3000 ten years ago.

Many of those who have extolled the virtues of the fuse upgrades that have been discussed in the other recent threads have expressed the opinion that the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide.

My suggestion is that you initially just replace the mains fuse, which of course you can easily try in both directions, and assess that result before embarking on anything more ambitious (and expensive) internal to the unit.

Regards,
-- Al

In the case of the Audio Magic Beeswax fuse (assuming he’s using the same stock fuse as he did for the Super Fuse (which I had) to drill out and squirt in the beeswax) the stock fuse manufacturer is either unaware of fuse directionality or chooses to ignore it. Don’t they all? Lol Audio Magic itself most likely doesn't have the time and inclination to test each fuse. Thus, no arrows on the Beeswax. Now if Audio Magic made his own fuses, things could be different since he would have control over the wire, and it's correct direction coming off spool.

Ergo, unless I miss my guess, you won’t be able to go by the writing on the fuse for clues on directionality. Even if someone reported his Audio Magic Beeswax fuse sounded best with number and letters written in the direction of the current flow I would be a little suspicious that that is always the case or just random. I hate to judge prematurely or be overly skeptical in this matter, especially considering the rather large number of fuses involved in your case (OMG) but it appears you will have to follow the sage advice which has been given on these fuse threads many times: try the fuse both ways and see which is better. Looks like you will have to determine directionality the old fashioned way.

cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Again, so much internet space wasted ... the reason for starting a new thread is exactly what I try to avoid:
on the previous one onlookers and know-it-alls filled up 90% of the thread with their assumptions.
Reading through close to 300 posts yielded little valuable, practical info.

On most threads we get comments "sure, go ahead and try this and that, as long as your wallet is comfortable with it", YMMV, etc but no, on the previous thread too many needed to voice their doubts about the direction of a fuse. Ever tried to ask some of the questions here on a forums at, say, Best Buy, like "does cable matter?"
You promptly will feel exactly the way how I feel here, thanks "audiophiles"! Great help! 

For clarification, I solicit comments like"
"..with the Audio Magic BeeWax, the direction goes like the lettering on the fuse (like HiFi Tuning)..."

Geoff, there are very specific questions being asked by the OP looking for very specific answers to apply for his NAD.

I’m waiting for your expert advice to help him.

I’m not biting on any baiting here . Let’s stay on topic.

Mopman wrote,

"Oh wait! I forgot. Geoff mostly just talks but Bo claims to have this all figured out and doable for his customers. Quantum chips too! Just go to him. Easy answer! That’s what experts are for!"

I'll talk to anyone who will listen.  Heck, I'll even talk to someone who won't listen. Think of it as Tibet Book of the Dead for Audiophiles.

Send more paramedics!

all non-believers can post here:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/determining-current-flow-to-install-audiophile-fuses

Call the dogs!

Oh sorry. This is a new fuse direction thread.

Not

Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.


My mistake. Only for believers this time.

Well hopefully I helped get things off to a good start, but I will butt out then I suppose.

I am interested in any practical answers that might come up to guide the OP other than try things both ways and see, but have my doubts, so will stay tuned given that. Beliefs can change over time, right? All it takes is the right facts.

For example, for the fuses that have an arrow on them indicating direction,  how to know which way to point the arrow correctly?

Great start here. Isn’t here another thread that’s circling the drain which would be more appropriate for the 1st three posts?

Oh wait! I forgot. Geoff mostly just talks but Bo claims to have this all figured out and doable for his customers. Quantum chips too! Just go to him. Easy answer! That’s what experts are for!

Stevecham, that’s an excellent question.

After al this discussion, you’d think the OPs question would be answered at this point and guidelines for getting all his stuff oriented correctly clear and doable.

Has any of that happened? Assuming fuses are directional in the sense that the direction actually matters to a significant degree for the resulting sound (listener biases and expectations aside) is op or anyone else any closer now to doing things right than when they started?

All this talk and analysis from all these smart people and is anyone any closer to the answer now than when the thread first started?

That’s my question. Each can have their own answer and take that for what its worth to them.

Assuming a better outcome is posible (not a safe assumption) its still a blind mans task.

Good luck! This would be funny at this point if not so sad that people might be misguided to spend their valuable time on such a blind man’s task at best IMHO. Only hard core audiophiles that have to get that last good fix of better sound they might be missing no matter what thanks to those who help feed people’s insecurities about what good sound they might be missing from their already excellent gear.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. People can choose to do much worse things in their spare time. Nobody is harmed as long as one is happy with what one is doing. People waste money on things all the time. It help keep the economy going.

Count me out. To those up to the task, good luck! You will need it! Unless its all in your head to start with perhaps. That makes things a lot easier.

So, what’s the question or point here? I mean, you have a position on this issue and are convinced that it holds scientific or quantitative value. Therefore, the combination of correct fuse orientations across all 19 fuses in your NAD must have some predictive outcome. Put them in their correct orientation, and enjoy.  Emotional states, i.e., belief systems, can bear greatly on the listening/hearing experience.