Direct Drive vs. Idler Drive vs. Belt drive

They had a naked motor available for admiration, and so I picked it up, put it next to my ear, and I could hear the sleeve bearings when I twisted the spindle.

Once the motor is prepped for operation it might not do that. I pulled the motor out of my Technics as I am taking it to a machinist so I can run a longer spindle. Its really quiet!

The problem is that next to something like a SOTA Cosmos with any decent arm on it those Technics tables sound like finger nails on a chalk board

A friend of mine (Warren Ghel, currently at ARC) developed the platter pad used on the Cosmos. SOTA got an exclusive contract to use it. I ran a Cosmos for quite some time- and then discovered that a mildly modified Empire 208 equipped with the same arm (at the time, an SME5) as the Cosmos sounded better. With more mods to the Empire (a plinth machined of solid aluminum and damping the platter) the Cosmos simply had to leave. Since then I've gone to using the Triplanar and I've working on a number of Technics SL1200Gs and GAEs; IMO they are a better turntable than our model 208 (the production version of the modified Empire). Based on this I have trouble taking the statement in your quote seriously! The Technics machine is excellent; equipped with the right arm and platter pad its a formidable machine; I don't see how a Cosmos would compare. 

Chakster, it is really quite simple. Those Technics tables you like are beautifully made eye candy. For many individuals the visual experience overloads the audio experience. Same thing happens with arrows on wires. The problem is that next to something like a SOTA Cosmos with any decent arm on it those Technics tables sound like finger nails on a chalk board. As far as air bearings go they are a totally unnecessary complication. If you want to float the platter just use opposing magnets.
I think the Air Force 1 is a tour de force of complexity. Eye candy for sure. Sound better? I would bet if I put the same cartridge and arm on a SOTA Cosmos or an SME 30/12 nobody would be able to reliably tell them apart but when you look at them then of course the Air Force 1 wins.

Tom, I liked your list of 16 yes or no alternative preferences. I calculate that makes for 65536 choices in turntables. (2E16)

Larry, that's part number   C303202 .

@larryi , 63 psi.

What New Way calls a thrust bushing provides an air cushion in 3 dimensions, i.e. the thrust bushing provides levitation as well.

I use an Italian compressor from Silentaire, oil technology, and heroic filtration. I'm thinking of upgrading to Juno, but so many calls on less money these days.

Thanks, that is what I thought.  The motor then has the same issue with noise/friction, albeit attenuated by the isolation provided by the belt.  The New Way bushing looks like it provides effective isolation of the shaft from the bore in the bushing itself, but, does it, or something else provide for levitation of the platter (no thrust bearing at the bottom of the shaft)? 

Also, what do you use to pressurize the bearing?

I applaud DIY efforts to to build something new, or improve upon an existing design.  

Alas, I could not find a low power, ultra-low-noise motor with air bearings, and I have not got around to replacing the sleeve bearings with air. It’s pretty fiddly!

But those sleeves are a problem. This is demonstrable by removing the belt and manually bringing the platter to speed. The latter sounds more refined, less high frequency hash. When the belt is restored, hash returns. When the motor is turned on, nothing changes. Hence it is the motor’s sleeve bearings to blame, not cogging or other electro-mechanical effects.

This is a little surprising, given the platter's mass, about 45 kg.

@larryi , I installed that New Way thrust bushing on a platter board which is isolated from the motor. Technology is belt drive - as others have noted, anyone can build a belt drive in his workshop. 

terry9,

Did you install that air bearing on the main platter bearing?  Is the motor that drives your set up similarly equipped with an air bearing?  

@thuchan , the need for an all air design became obvious when I attended a manufacturer’s rollout for the big new Technics. They had a naked motor available for admiration, and so I picked it up, put it next to my ear, and I could hear the sleeve bearings when I twisted the spindle. Not loud, obviously, but the noise was there if you listened carefully. My New Way amorphous carbon thrust bushing is dead silent!

I found Herb Reichert's piece in the latest edition of S'Phile uhhh....interesting. He reviewed the J.Sikora Initial which is belt drive and in an apparent effort to heap his usual unfettered Primaluna type hyperbolic and unrealistic praise upon it, he took a jab at his own Thorens TD124 calling it (I am not home to quote verbatim) a bucket of nuts and bolts by comparison. All this using a Jelco arm while the photo S'Phile published with his review shows a Kuzma, go figure. I wish I had his phone number so I could tell him that I will take it-his TD124- off his hands since he finds it to be junk. 
I bring it up here because I happen to believe that all three can be very good. It all depends upon implementation. Herb is a gifted writer but unlike Art Dudley who many have lumped him with, he has very mediocre gear and an apparent low bar used as a reference. 
For Herb Reichert to call the Thorens TD124 a bucket of bolts is like some proud new Tesla owner declaring an original mint Shelby Mustang to be outdated trash. Fine. That does not make it so and 98% of automotive cognoscenti would take the Shelby seven days a week and Sunday too. 
Yes, I have a TD124. Highly modified. And a highly modded Garrard 301. I suspect Herb's TD124 has not be properly cleaned, serviced, or modded and that he has an even worse arm than a Jelco (not bad mind you, but Jelco is not close to the top either) mounted to it. Herb, Herb, Herb, stop smoking so much herb Herb. 

Regarding air bearings I am wondering that many friends around here mix air floating devices with a real air bearing design. Even Mike Fremer mentions air bearings with an air floating deck.
To my knowledge only two designs (in the world) are running on air bearings. May I have overseen a development?

Own 2 technics SL-1200mk2’s

best TT ever built!

And this is only an entry level into SL1200 series, i also have a pair of Sl1210 mkII for more than 20 years, fully upgraded in the last 7 years, not in the main system, but it was my first adult turntable :) 

The next level for me was this SP-10 mkII in teak wood plinth with Reed 3p tonearm and Glanz 61 MF cartridge. 

And not so long ago Technics returned with new turntables, different models with prices from $899 to $4000 in SL1200 series. 

I just don't understand why people are so brainwashed with those rega and related belt drives. 

Direct drive!

 Own 2 technics SL-1200mk2’s and one Mark III IN BLACK FROM MID-late 90’s

,oldest ones are mark II’s,
still,play flawlessly, from late 80’s.

take apart 1-2 x a year, remove psi deal, wipe, fresh oil, good as new.

 Stock arm, great Ortofon Concorde headshells!

 Haven’t skipped a beat in 30 years.

 None better.

 Adjusted brake mayb 3-5;X  in 30 years.

best tt’s ever owned, been through a lot, pioneer, Sony, BIC, DUAL,   The technics still play, and function as new after 30 years and more.

 Belts, bull tripe, never again.

 My old warhorses may not have the resolution of a thorens or a 8K $ TT,  but they are reliable, and start, play and stop on a dime year after year.

best TT ever built!

billwojo

One thing I have found in common with all of the popular British TT is the constant need for upgrades.

Actually, there is no "need" for an upgrade. Without the upgrade, your turntable will perform exactly the same as it always did. An upgrade is just an option for those that might want to seek improvement. It’s the same as when a company such as Audio Research offers upgrades to its electronics; the availability of an upgrade doesn’t diminish the performance of your existing component.

Oddly, some audiophiles complain when upgrades are not made available for existing product, claiming that it reflects "planned obsolescence" and lessens the value of their existing product. That argument does seem to have some validity.

Thanks chakster, I didn't know if I would get beat up by my opinion but figured I'd be safer in this post than expressing it on a Rega post.
And it's a daily occurrence if you read several audio forums like I do, either the need to update or complaining about a problem. And there are lot's of problems it seems.
The Rega defenders absolutely adore Roy Gandy and his approach to making the TT non adjustable. Seems he doesn't believe that you need to adjust VTA.
Have you seen the prices on the upper tier Rega TT? You can buy a nice machine for that kind of money. It makes no sense to me at all.
BillWojo

One thing I have found in common with all of the popular British TT is the constant need for upgrades.

There are dozens of threads on the audio forums with folks constantly talking about upgrading the popular Rega tables. Did you know that if you upgrade the stock belt that comes on the Rega table to the better white belt that they sell it helps regulate the speed better! Than put it the F*** on from the factory! Or the stock power supply that comes with the table is so weak it won't hold proper speed so you really need to buy an upgraded $400.00 power supply from them!

Oh, throw away the stock plastic sub platter because it sucks and upgrade to the aluminum one that they make for the upgraded model. Than they want you to purchase a new platter to use on your new sub platter. It never ends.

A couple of different post about sagging plinths on the Rega Planar 6, seems the foam core plinth doesn't always hold up well. Even the better Rega models don't have adjustable VTA, you need to stay with Rega carts or start shimming.

And the owners will defend Rega all the way to their next upgrade with glee.

It's the Rega Merry-Go-Round.

Oh, by the way, Linn just came out with ANOTHER new spindle bearing! Yup, all the Linn owners are busy buzzing about it.

So I just play my rock steady, Japanese, speed stable, fully adjustable, dependable JVC QL-A7 DD turntable that I purchased for less than a Rega P3 and enjoy the music.

BillWojo

This is a great post, i could not explain better than this.

I'm wondering why people still buying those belt drive turntables like Rega and then post question about their weakness every week on audiogon? 

Direct Drive available NEW or USED for less money and they are so much better. 

I posted my latest contribution before I ended my writing. There
is ''Preview'' and ''Post...'' so I obviously pressed ''Post'' instead
of ''Preview''. What I wanted to add is that ''referencial theory of
truth'' won the ''contest''. Scientist are interested in the 'real theory
of truth'' and consider the so called ''propositional attitutudes '' as
not truth funcional. So ''whishing'' ,'' hoping for'' , ''believing that'',
etc . statements don't  satisfy truth criteria. They also defy 
logical analysis in the sense of consistency. 
I see that edgewear, say, like the referential theory but the names
which he uses are referential opaque. With Dutch he means all
Dutch but the quantifier ''all'' is not an name. It is used for universal 
statemens like ''all x are Fx& Gx'' . But if one x does not satisfy
conditions F and G then the whole statement is no truth.
Then the reference to UK is not ''correct'' according to him because
Scotland is not included in UK. It is the only country where Linn
LP12 are made. So the statement Linn is made in UK is not
true? Well ''extension of names'' is difficult ''subject''. Frege's 
definition of numbers was ''extension of notions'' but was 
refuted by Russel because of paradoxes in the theory of sets .
More in particular by ''sets of all sets'' (grin).

Nandric, I'm happy to learn not all Dutch are to blame for Philips propoganda. Thank goodness, I'm off the hook! 
Your grandpa was generalizing a bit, woudn't you agree? Besides, Linn is not a British, but a Scottish company. In the United Kingdom, or what's left of it, they feel there's a distinction there. Then again, Tiefenbrun does sound rather German, the country you say that invented propoganda.....

With Rega/Linn people is starting to upgrade and it's quite a learning curve what is important in turntables.
There is in Europe more common old school example  - Thorens TD160 which is better for playing with upgrades.  
 

''Meaning and truth'''. There was an attempt in the philosophy of
language to establish theory of ''emotive meaning'' of words. One
can use the expression ''notions'' instead of words because the
most have ''notional mental orientation''. We all learned difference
between ''neat'' and ''rude'' or ''impolite'' words. That is how psychology is involved in ''understanding''. All advertising is based
on psychology. The buyers need to be seduced.
What does ''improved version of x'' means? Linn LP used this
''notion'' each time because echt time the price could be increased.
 No need to explain ; one only need to compare prices.
What does ''original'' means? More in particular in USA. Old 
cars cost much more the new provided they have ''original parts''.
I have seen old  Italian cars which are sold for millions dollars .
But is any improvement possible without changing at least some
parts in the construction. I asked the question in this forum:
'' has anyone try to put an LP together from original parts?''
Does ''original'' means something else in this ,uh, context? 
Well in ''our present context'' the notions ''DT'', ''Idler'' and ''belt''







Is

One thing I have found in common with all of the popular British TT is the constant need for upgrades.
There are dozens of threads on the audio forums with folks constantly talking about upgrading the popular Rega tables. Did you know that if you upgrade the stock belt that comes on the Rega table to the better white belt that they sell it helps regulate the speed better! Than put it the F*** on from the factory! Or the stock power supply that comes with the table is so weak it won't hold proper speed so you really need to buy an upgraded $400.00 power supply from them!
Oh, throw away the stock plastic sub platter because it sucks and upgrade to the aluminum one that they make for the upgraded model. Than they want you to purchase a new platter to use on your new sub platter. It never ends.
A couple of different post about sagging plinths on the Rega Planar 6, seems the foam core plinth doesn't always hold up well. Even the better Rega models don't have adjustable VTA, you need to stay with Rega carts or start shimming.
And the owners will defend Rega all the way to their next upgrade with glee.
It's the Rega Merry-Go-Round.
Oh, by the way, Linn just came out with ANOTHER new spindle bearing! Yup, all the Linn owners are busy buzzing about it.
So I just play my rock steady, Japanese, speed stable, fully adjustable, dependable JVC QL-A7 DD turntable that I purchased for less than a Rega P3 and enjoy the music.

BillWojo

edgewear, While I am an (born) brave Serbian I don't believe
that all Dutch people are to blame because Philips is an Dutch
company. What about Linn then? Do you agree with my grandpa?

Nandric, the 'accusion' as you like to call it was aimed at Philips for their preposterous CD propoganda. Last time I checked this is a Dutch company...... 

edgewear, Your accusation than I am Dutch is curious because
I am an (brave) Serbian. But you are right regarding CD invention.
As you should know I am member of analog religion.

How about the Dutch? Remember the Philips slogan 'perfect sound forever'?

My Gosh I though that propaganda was invented in Germany
(Goebbells) and Sovjet Union (Molotov?).
But my grandad always blamed British for every bad things. 
He looked than in special way at the listener. I was sceptical
because I was able to read ...That is probably the needed
capability for propaganda. 

"The problem with Direct Drives is a big oscillating magnetic device directly under a very sensitive magnetic device."
Magnetic fields are easy to locate and measure. If this was really a problem the British audio press would have been posting about this on the front covers of there magazines. They tried everything to kill off the DD revolution that stormed the world back than.
Nothing could ever be better than the idler and belt drive tables they produced, just like the cars and motorcycles from that era. They did everything they could to protect their industry and lied to all of us.  They wrote so much negative and false BS that for some it became a truth. A lot of those myths are still around today as can be seen from the quote above.
I owned a few British motorcycles and they were built crappy, very crappy. Needed constant servicing. I didn't know that till I picked up a BMW motorcycle. Latter a Japanese motorcycle. They were like an appliance. They always worked and worked well. Very minimal service needed.So the British audio press is responsible for all the miss information that keeps getting regurgitated over and over again.
A lot of the higher end Japanese DD TT from the later 70's onward were truly state of the art back than and even today. It takes a lot of money and engineering skill to better them.
Back than, Japanese audio companies were competing with each other and it was company pride that drove them to produce statement tables that sold at a loss. Yes they cost more to produce than they sold for. They didn't care, the sales of the lower tier tables more than made up for it.
Today most TT are belt drive, companies don't have the dollars it takes to develop state of the art DD motors and controllers. Plus it's easy to just route a plinth out of a sheet good product and slap a nice coat of paint on it. Add a cheap motor, bearing and a rubber band and your most of the way there.
Those cheap belt drive TT are not even in the same ball park much less the same zip code when it comes to keeping speed like a older DD table will. A lot of them even refuse to publish basic specs like wow and flutter.

BillWojo

Yes I checked about Magic and this technique is very good if you want to be sure that nobody will waist time trying to repair broken item or if you want to cover some secret from bad competitor eyes.

bukanona, I mentioned explicit that among other innovations
Sony introduced ''potting''. My (forum) brother Don explained
to me what ''potting'' means. Leto Andreoli whom Dover consider
as artist among cart producers also use this ''potting'' technic 
but by his  Magic Diamond one can see this ''potting material ''
from outside. 

Dear thuchan, I am 83 old and have difficulty to  walk longer distances than, say, 200 m. You and my other German friends invited
me for the Munchen show many times but being all globetrotters
never thought about my physical limitations. Mea culpa but as
an brave Serbian  warrior I was not willing to confess my own
limitations. Distance is not an border for love and friendship. 
I consider myself still as member of the ''German group''.

Lewm,
you are always welcome. Nandric has some difficulties taking his feet over the Dutch border 😂
in four weeks I will be confronted with a new highlight in Phono.
will report later.

best
E. (Without D but T)

Right Atmasphere, if on a "proper stand" which includes the floor and everything under it, a situation most of us have no control over. On any wood joist floor you will be in trouble. Those of us on concrete slabs are lucky. I personally do not think that level of speed stability is all that important. Like distortion in amps it becomes a numbers game. But, I do not have any prolonged experience with modern DD tables. My bias comes from the unfortunately distant past. You as an audio manufacturer get a lot more opportunity to play with this stuff than I do and I do believe I am jealous of that. My life just lead me in another direction.
What tonearm would you put on the 1200G?

@mijostyn I missed this earlier! I have my turntable on a custom Sound Anchors equipment stand, which is built to accommodate an UltraResolution Technology platform (n.l.a.) for both the preamp and the turntable, which of course sits on top. The stand in turn rests on a set of Aurios Pro bearings (unfortunately also n.l.a.). Despite wood floors and joists, no footfalls or any such like, even in my previous house which had considerably less sound flooring.


The Triplanar seems the obvious choice for tonearm as it is state of the art.


When the two are combined the soundstage takes on a spooky real quality much like you hear on tape. My surmise is since the speed is so stable, the arm oscillates less over the groove so the soundstage has less shimmer as the tracking pressure on each groove wall is more constant.

Bukanona, I deed not use the expression ''glue'' but referred to
Axel's description of the stuff with which the Body was ''potted''
 in order to dampen resonaces. Even Axel with 40 years of
experience has never seen this before. I have no experience 
with other carts in the XL series but assumed that those are
also ''potted''. All of them have the same ''8 form coil formers''.
So if one can get entrance one can probably buy, say, XL 44
as ''clone'' for the coils of other versions. .I assume that XL 55
has round cantilever and joint pipe so in this ''pipe'' an new cantilever/stylus combo can be glued in .By the most retips
the old cantilever can be removed by some solvent so that
new cantilever can be glued in. 

Dear Lew, You can then see and hear Eckard's more beautuful Sony XL 88D in its integrated  headshell.

I guess I will use it to inflate a balloon, so I can float over to Germany to hear Eckard's systems.

nandric, I have saw guts of Sony XL55Pro and it was possible to repair it.

As I can see from your data if all internal cavity of 88D filled with glue nobody will do that. 

bukanona, Changing the whole ''motor' and adding Namiki
cantilever with glued in stylus is some other ''animal''
than Sony's one peace diamond for both. For 2000 euro
you will keep only Sony's body which I blamed for the impossibility 
to retip or repair. However anybody has right to its own thoughts. 

I like disputes but not with dover (grin). I started an thread
with the title ''irreparable cartridge'' but nobody was interested.
Curious because my explicit reference was to Sony XL series
and ZYX series. The reason is the glued body with no possibility
to enter inside for eventual repair. It is , I think, never mentioned
that among other innovations Sony was the first with  ''potting''
the inside of the body. Axel needed to break the body to get
inside but inside he was confronted with ''glue'' as he put it.
That is some ''glue kind'' of damping material. Now regarding
 the optimistic inclination about retip. Those who thinks this 
possible have never seen  Sony XL 88 D. The diamond and 
consequently the ''joint pipe'' are not round . Besides the diamond
cantilever is not glued in the ''joint pipe'' in usual way. What Axel
was asked to do was straighten the cantilever/stylus combo.
This was, alas, not possible because of mentioned fastening.
That is why he needed to ''break in'' inside. The whole generator 
was somehow ''turned around'' . By straightening the generator
the coils  were broken in this (potting) glue. I lost my Sony 88D
this way while my initial thought was: ''easy job to straighten the
stylus''. 






 

In XL88D you have to change whole motor.
That means master has to make new coils in the way as Sony did. It's possible to use diamond cantilever from Namiki.
IMO total for that will be at least 2000 EUR.

This is of course nonsense. Developed around 1980 the Sony XL88D had a "super elliptical" stylus profile.

@dover
Good point, because advanced cartridge design should not be mated with conventional elliptical stylus, i don’t own 88D, never tried.

Super Elliptical ot Hyper Elliptical is what i have on various cartridges including SONY XL50 MM (on boron pipe cantilever), there was XL70 MM that someone selling on ebay now. Super Elliptical stylus as you can see, same profile as on 88D, good to know.

How would you describe Super Elliptical, it’s LineContact i believe (not MR) ?

By the way the diamond cantilever and stylus on the XL88D are cut from one piece - it is not possible to retip as suggested.

Right, nice to look at (in the display case). When diamond is worn it’s gone (or cut and glue, retippers normally breaking the rules).

Re Sony XL88D

Chakster

Very interesting, indeed @nandric 

One of the simplest stylus (Elliptical on one of the most exotic cantilever (Diamond, gemstone cantilever) - this is SONY

On the other side is pretty simple Aluminum cantilever with advanced stylus tip such as Refined Contact (on FR-7fz) and PH Semi Line Contact tip (on Miyabi MCA). 

What we have here is an extreme on both ends:

1) better cantilever, but simplest diamond
2) better diamonds, but simplest cantilever 

But both cartridges as LOMC, so we have something in common here. But at the same time we’re comparing apples to oranges, because those cartridges are different and designed by different people with different concept in mind. 

I think people who love to "upgrade" their LOMC with help of some re-tippers could change cantilever on FR or Miyabi, they could also change stylus tip on SONY. 

This is of course nonsense. Developed around 1980 the Sony XL88D had a "super elliptical" stylus profile. It was much sharper and finer profile than any off the shelf elliptical at the time. This is the danger of speculating about what not you know. How do I know - it was mounted on my turntable, spankers new in 1983. The Sony was developed and released just prior to the development and availability of the microridge profile. Great cartridge.

Sony subsequently used the microridge stylus profile on the XL55ProII released in 1984 and a few other cartridges they released from 84 onwards to the early 90's

By the way the diamond cantilever and stylus on the XL88D are cut from one piece - it is not possible to retip as suggested.

Touche'!!

Our dear member whom we assumed to be an ''former member'' is
back. Welcome back thuchan!
Lew congratulation with your new compressor. 
 

agree Lewm!
i should send you a compressor, no? 🤣

best
E.

Addition, the problem by ''Australian English'':
Australian ENGLISH,
New Zeeland ENGLISH
American ENGLISH
British (?) ENGLISH 
Our forum ENGLISH
Raul's ENGLISH, etc
BTW deed anyone in our forum try to put together LP 12 from
''original parts''? Is any improvement possible without
changing some parts? Are those than worthless because
of the lack of original parts? 
 

Generating ''new words'' by adding up phoneme. There are
''left hand''- and ''right hand'' methods
The Romans were left with ,say, RES on the left side and addition
on the right side. ''We'' are the right hand 

RES- nulius (property which does no belong to anyone; free)
RES- sacre  ( saint objects)
RES- immobiles (movables)

PROPERTY- movables, real estate .etc.
ELLIPTICAL- ''super''  and other kinds. 
 
A kind of word ''root '' is assumed which can be modify by
adding some phoneme to the right or left side of the ''root word)
But I have no idea how this works in Australia (grin).

but the case is that this cart has elliptical stylus.

Well, VinylEngine describes it as HYPER-ELLIPTICAL.....
But we can't always trust VinylEngine...🤗
They also use the same description for the 'ordinary' SONY XL-88....
It appears a bit more advanced to me....?

Thuchan, I do take your point re complexity. I admire industrial art for art’s sake. For that we also have cars and cameras, along with vintage turntables, vacuum tubes, and oddball speakers like my Beveridges. Just no compressor in my audio system. I had to draw the line somewhere.