I'd like to know your thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of each drive system. I can see that direct drive is more in vogue over the last few years but is it superior to the other drive systems? I've had first-hand experiences with two out of the three drive systems but looking to learn more.
Who exactly is trialling tts w the same carts? I can't think of anyone trying out tts in a retail store and moving the same cart from one tt to the next. That's just so...70s-90s Lol. In the UK, I can count the dealers on one hand who can even fit a cart probably, let alone move it btwn rigs. Nope...today you just pick a tt and cart and hope for the best I think.
In my own experience distinguishing between excellent turntables using the same cartridge is difficult and likely more dependent on my mood than any specific difference in performance.
Raul you rascal. You got banned from a forum? Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
In my own experience distinguishing between excellent turntables using the same cartridge is difficult and likely more dependent on my mood than any specific difference in performance. I am more inclined to look at more practical issues such as stability (can I jump up and down without the record skipping). How hard can I bang on the table before hearing it. Ease of use. I don't care what it looks like as long as it is well constructed. I discriminate among the tables by drive type given the inherent weakness indigenous to each type.
Lewm, It is not really a filter effect although there is an anti aliasing filter up there but the high end frequency of CDs is limited by the sampling rate. If you over sample you can push the filter up higher reducing it's effects in the audio band but you do not push the frequency response up higher. One of the nicest albums ever recorded The Trinity Session was recorded in 44.1/16 so there is more at work here. There is absolutely no problem with the bass on CDs. They do just fine and are generally cleaner than vinyl because of lack of mechanical considerations. Remember, for the most part I prefer vinyl to CDs.
Ralph, isn't it incredible that you can get a rock to vibrate that fast!
Mike, you really need to get a Reed 5T and tell us how you like it. If I had $20K disposable now I would go for it.
Dear @alexberger : ""
It is weird that people on this forum are not familiar with EMT 950 and 948 DD turntables. .."""
not really, many of us are familiar with. Here exist several threads on the EMT, I participated on at least two of them. This is one of those several threads and before and after it exist more ( this is only an example. ):
the things are that you are almost new in Agon. An audio friend of mine works in a radio/tv big network and he invited to a listenning session down there and ovbiously a " tour " around the company. The listening session was using one of the 10+ 950 TTs they used to and during the " trip " to the company installations they had only one SP-10MK2.
Btw, yes your friend is rigth, the SP10-2 sounds sterile. I owned 3 samples that I sold when my Denons outperformed with some easy to it. The Denon servo design makes the differences because the 10-2 specs are higher than the ones on Denon units but specs never says all. The MK3 is different but still with some trouble in the servo design.
Now and speaking of EMT, Technics and Denon the EMT and SP10 as the Denon 308 and DP100M were designed expressily for radio stations not for a home audio systems. Latter on came the Technics MK3 and DP100 for home systems.
I think HP of all people nailed it when he noted that digital
reproduction effects a high pass filter albeit at a very low frequency
which seems to rob the music of its natural ambiance. The bass drops off
a cliff, metaphorically speaking. You don’t hear it as lack of bass per
se.
@lewm In a nutshell, vinyl has more bandwidth than Redbook. On the bottom end its only limited by the mechanical resonance of the playback. On the top end it can go out well past 50KHz, although my cutter is bandwidth-limited at about 42KHz.
Dear @mikelavigne : """
these things are always degrees of success, trade-offs and compromises. again, anything mechanical can only approach perfection. ..."""
As you I think you own 3 different drive TTs where each one is one of the best on its kind out there and due to the top quality level you are experienced with more than real compromises or trade-offs what exist is " only " just top quality performance but with different " color " that as you said all are approaching perfection at levels you don't experienced before.
I'm sure that each of your TTs designers are really satisfied with the way the items performs.
Hi @chakster , This my friend Guy Landau appired on different forums from 1990x. I don’t know on which forums he appears right now. I don’t have data which tonarm did he used with each of these turtables. I remember he used FR64 old version on sp10. But I know he likes to play with different tonearms and he has anough experience to recognize what and how influenced to the total sound.
I used SME 3009mk2 on Lenco and 20kg birch playwood plinth. I used Ortofon Jubilee and Ortofon Rondo Bronze cartridges. I used the same cartridges on Nottingham Spacedeck with Spacearm tonearm. I use EMT 929 to arm on EMT948 with EMT TSD15 SFL and TSD15 SPH cartridges. I used the same phonostage with all turtables.
My friend I talked about have a huge experience. Actually he is the most famost vintage audio intusiast in Israel. So I trust his opinion.
I enjoyed my stay in Israel last autumn, i’ve seen great sound systems and nice setups. Audiophile scene is pretty strong in Israel as far as i know. Why your friend is not on audiogon yet ? :))
One my friend had in his system:Kenwood L-07D, EMT 948, Technics SP10mk2, Yamaha GT-2000. He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second. But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.
Anyway, when someone telling us "this turntable is sterile" compared to others it’s very important to understand why.
As you mentioned he has L-07D which comes with it’s own tonearm made by Micro Seiki.
Yamaha GT-2000 comes with it’s own Yamaha tonearm, not very popular tonearm by the way.
Those two turntables are for sale as complete units (with pre-mounted tonearms).
Technics SP-10 mkII is just a drive and available separately. I’ve tried at least 3 tonearms (Reed 3p "12, EPA-100 "10.5, Schick "12 ... on my ex SP-10 mkII and the sound with each tonearm was different. Do you understand what i mean ?
Not sure about EMT, but most likely it’s a complete unit with EMT own tonearm? Old ortofon or New Schick is also popular on EMT...
When your friend comparing L-07D (with Kenwood/MicroSeiki tonearm) to Yamaha (with Yamaha tonearm) he’s comparing complete units/turntables factory assembled. Even if the cartridge is the same, the combination of the cartridge and tonearm might change the sound.
When he’s using SP-10 mkII he could add almost any tonearm and the sound with each tonearm will be different. In this situation it’s not fair to say that Technics SP-10 mkII is sterile, because SP-10 mkII is just the drive, not a complete turntables. If he put together SP-10 mkII with some tonearm and plinth then the choice of the plinth and tonearm is critical (not to mention the most important part as a phono cartridge matched to the tonearm).
And all 4 turntables (Kenwood, Yamaha, EMT and Technics) are Direct Drive at least.
I’m not a typical audiophile and I don’t change equipment too often. I have been using EMT 948 since 2011 and I am not going to change it. The truth is, I could live with Lenco L78. It was a very nice, musical turntable.
This is why i’m trying to make it clear. Same with your Lenco, did you try EMA and Lenco with the same tonearm/cartridge ?
Because if someone comparing turntables there are a lot of combinations of the plinth, arms, carts, mats, feet etc. A fair comparison of the drive must be done with the same tonearm/cartridge on all turntables, when you will be able to "hear" the drive and comment about the drive itself.
Dear @mikelavigne : Thank’s. Your first sentence was my own answer when/after I posted. It was obvious but I can’t seen before.
""" all three challenge my big Studer’s for musical rightness.. """
there is no best way to explain the top class all of those 3 TTs that are a true challenge for any medium.
You really have deep experience along your very high resolution room/set up that permits that even that top quality performance you are a little on the CS port BD design and something is down there this kind of drive because 0ver 90% of my LP listening sessions are through my BD TT and not my DD ones.
I remember you since you owned the Goldmud Reference and when you changed from the Sirius 3 to the NVS I knew that there were something really special and indeed was and is that way.
Good to see you again in this forum, always a pleasure to read your posts.
I know that you post often in WBF but I was banned from there, some people there with closed mind and I’m not to polite because that’s the way I’m.
Anyway, as always a learning sessions with you.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
Btw, the studio DD TT 308 you named has bi-directional servo. Very good vintage studio TT.
As a massive fan of analog, the best recording I've ever heard is a digital version of Sarah Vaughan, and the worst, Metallica's Death Magnetic lp. All in the mastering. But across the range of Golden Age recordings, I'll bet on vinyl more times than cd or streaming.
Hi @chakster , My friend I talked about have a huge experience. Actually he is the most famost vintage audio intusiast in Israel. So I trust his opinion. Regards, Alex
very true. It depends on the mastering and which kind of format you are using. In my case they took the original tape, mastered it with the JVC mastering process and put it on SMH disc. Much better than the original vinyl pressing. The much I love vinyl it is not always the best format. Lewm made some interesting findings as well.
@mikelavigne : After I posted the last one I followed thinking about and I thought I had the answers but I followed thinking and rigth now I have more questions than answers between the kind of TT drive ( inlcuding the servo issue. ) and what I posted. I think that those no-answers came because I'm not " there " like you and that's where belongs the importance of your coments, maybe exist other " things " around that only you know it. R.
i respect your perspective on microscopic groove actions and groove modulation effects of drive systems....
When the stylus start to ride the groove modulations that act develops many other tiny modulations as: feedback from the LP surface due to the friction of the stylus tip forces, the surface of the LP and due to that very high friction forces makes that exist too a feedback from the LP surface that is in touch with the platter or platter mat . These are the first tiny developed modulations that goes mixed through the stylus/cantilever along the groove modulations ( the cartridge can’t make any difference between the groove modulations and the fedback modulations, just took it as it was the same. Is a very sensitive movements sensor. ). That kind of feedback is followed by the cartridge body self feedback developed by the cantilever/stylus tracking and comes a new feedback movement that’s very fast transmitted to the cantilever and that same cartridge body feedback and through the top plate of the cartridge is transmitted to the tonearm headshel and starts to resonates in between ( this is totally independent of the resonance frequency in between the tonearm/cartridge and its compliance. ) and transmitted through the tonearm and then to the arm board but does not disappears because part of those kind of resonances/vibrations return through that arm board to the cantilever/stylus and mixed again with the true groove modulations.
no mechanical device is perfect, which also goes for my three turntables.
however; each of turntables do address these issues in their own ways. and like any high performance piece of gear, i have tuned each of these appropriately to get them to be optimized.
as far as groove modulations; obviously the NVS has direct drive and a heavy 45 pound platter to eliminate that concern, the Saskia uses the idler wheel leverage to overcome this, and the CS Port an air bearing and air float inertia of a 60 pound platter to address this. i get zero congestion at musical peaks from any of these tt's......which is where this issue reveals itself typically.
as far as microscopic resonance we again have three different solutions; the NVS (closest to my massive bass towers) uses the Taiko Tana active isolation as well as the Durand record weight. the Saskia uses it's 180 pound decoupled plinth, and stillpoint like footers, and the CS Port it's air bearing and air float platter, as well as it's 6 pound record weight.
all three have apparently very calm stylus in groove tracking.
these things are always degrees of success, trade-offs and compromises. again, anything mechanical can only approach perfection. my ears tell me these approach it closely. :-)
all three challenge my big Studer's for musical rightness......the gold standard.
He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second. But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile.
to say something like that a person have to use the same tonearm and cartridge on all turntables and compare them with the same phono stage in the same system.
Yes, all people have a different taste. One my friend had in his system:Kenwood L-07D, EMT 948, Technics SP10mk2, Yamaha GT-2000. He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second. But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile. In any case most of these top vintage Japanese and German DDs are very good machines. I'm not a typical audiophile and I don't change equipment too often. I have been using EMT 948 since 2011 and I am not going to change it. The truth is, I could live with Lenco L78. It was a very nice, musical turntable.
Dear @mikelavigne : I can’t argue nothing in your answer post due that’s way coherent and make sense to me.
However I like to understand ( not only with what you are listening through your room/system but coming from some one else. ) what is really happening down there even that I’m not " there " but your posts speaks a lot but exist things that maybe words can’t explain thae way I need it.
Let me explain it in other way and please we can ( for the moment ) take off/out the TT drive issue and analize a little what can modulates the sound you are listening other that the recorded groove modulations because I think that those other very tiny modulations puts its own " color " that can or not makes subttle differences in between your 3 great TTs:
all the 3 TTs are building with different blend of materials at each different places inside the whole TT and the blend of those materials and depending were are used tends to resonate/vibrate under dynamic stage/when are spinning during play. Those kind of very tiny or micro resonances/vibrations are different ( example: at different frequency. ) in each one of 3 TTs.
Now, what happens when the cartridge start to track/ride the LP groove modulations inside that whole mechanical circuit ( of course that it’s too the lectrical side but it’s not the issue here. ) formed by: TT/tonearm/cartridge/LP?
As I said that circuit is a mechanical one and we can’t avoid the Newton Laws down there that lives down there one way or the other.
When the stylus start to ride the groove modulations that act develops many other tiny modulations as: feedback from the LP surface due to the friction of the stylus tip forces, the surface of the LP and due to that very high friction forces makes that exist too a feedback from the LP surface that is in touch with the platter or platter mat . These are the first tiny developed modulations that goes mixed through the stylus/cantilever along the groove modulations ( the cartridge can’t make any difference between the groove modulations and the fedback modulations, just took it as it was the same. Is a very sensitive movements sensor. ). That kind of feedback is followed by the cartridge body self feedback developed by the cantilever/stylus tracking and comes a new feedback movement that’s very fast transmitted to the cantilever and that same cartridge body feedback and through the top plate of the cartridge is transmitted to the tonearm headshel and starts to resonates in between ( this is totally independent of the resonance frequency in between the tonearm/cartridge and its compliance. ) and transmitted through the tonearm and then to the arm board but does not disappears because part of those kind of resonances/vibrations return through that arm board to the cantilever/stylus and mixed again with the true groove modulations.
Things do not finish here but I think you have the idea of what I try to explain about.
At the very high level of resolution that you are listening all those it matters ( at least for me ) because even that all 3 TTs are extremely well designed and excecuted and with the necessary overall damping ( that’s why the designers choosed materiasl and where to use it in the design. ) that each TT color exist and you are hearing it because no one can’t avoid it can’t makes that disappears from that mechanical circuit.
Normally those developed " modulations " affects the more to the bass range that at the same time it modulates ( color ) the other two frequency ranges. My common sense tells me that all those is happening but as you pointed out in your answer to me I can be wrong and I really appreciated your comments about even that what you are listening something magical for the first time in your life. I whish I can do that some time in the futura if God Gives me the life.
i’ve not heard all the best vintage direct drives, and so don’t want to claim i have. but i’ve heard the best one, and that is the Rockport Siruis III, which i owned for 8 years. but the very best one is a Sirius III modified and improved by my friend Mik, who i referenced earlier in this thread. he owns 4 of those. the Sirius III was designed in 1995, so some might not consider it ’vintage’. but that is now 25 years ago.
likely the next favorites would be;
2. Denon DN-308
3. Denon DP100 3.Technics SP-10mk3 (i owned a ’Dobbins-plinthed’ Mk3 for 2 years) 3.Pioneer Exlcusive P3
4.Sony PS-X9 4.Kenwood L-07D
this is assuming primo condition and 2-4 might be different for different listeners. and maybe i missed one. the Goldmund might fit somewhere in this.
i would place the NOS EMT 948 just below this group.
i consider my NVS sitting on the active platform as competitive with any of those. and forced to choose between any of those, possibly excepting the Sirius III modified my Mik, i would choose my CS Port belt drive as my preference for most music.
just one guy’s opinion. 10 people might have 10 different lists.
My musicant-audiophile fried had both EMT950 and 948. In the end, he decided sell 948 and left for himself 950. But he told the difference was't too big. In my case, I had Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck/Spacearm, Lenco L78 on heavy plinth and SME 3009mk2 tonearm and EMT 948 with 929 tonearm. I liked Lenco more than Nottingham. EMT 948 is much better then both Lenco and Nottingham.
NVS costs $45K brand new. EMT 948 costs $10K NOS or $5K used in perfect conditons with tonearm.
when you get into vintage turntables compared to new, there are no rules. and you have to view value with time adjusted dollar values. the EMT 948 with arm was similar value in the mid-80's to a new NVS. we could name a number of 70's and 80's direct drive tt's which are fully competitive to new models. and some would claim the vintage choices are better.
and then you have the idea of what would one spend for a used NVS now? so the $45k number is......just a number.
which does not make the EMT 948 a bad tt. it's a very good one, but not at the very top rank even for vintage direct drives.....to my ears.
personally i do view the NVS as being in the top rank of current direct drive tt's. particularly sitting on my Takio Tana active shelf. it's the best direct drive i have heard.
Can you comment on your statement above, if the drive is capable of micro speed stability would it not be able to maintain its speed or for that matter a stationary dot on a wall over a 1.8 sec period?
the speed almost does not matter within a range. our ears and brains are dramatically more sensitive to steadyness of pitch than the actual pitch. and our reality check with our senses is any sort of grain or warbling in a decay or sustain is immediately sensed as a non-linearity......not real.
so the idea of accuracy is going down the wrong path. we want steady.......and we want continuous.
are there people with perfect pitch. maybe, but not many. and different pitches typically don't sound 'wrong'. OTOH everyone can hear when a piano or horn sounds sour and it's a bummer.
there is more to music than these concepts;; but when done right this is very big.
@totem395 Yes it goes without saying that the drive can manage an apparently stationary dot over 1.8 seconds. I was referring to a longer time frame, say a complete side of an LP. To me it doesn't really matter if the dot has drifted a little after 20 or so minutes. We are referring to speed drift. Quite a different metric than W@F and short term speed stability.
In a DD, this drift is related to temperature and the accuracy of the speed reference. A quartz crystal or another form of precision oscillator. Speed drift on my design is < +- 0.0025%
What, to me, is important is the speed accuracy at a micro level.
Can you comment on your statement above, if the drive is capable of micro speed stability would it not be able to maintain its speed or for that matter a stationary dot on a wall over a 1.8 sec period?
Mike, hi. I thought it was a little instructive that on WBF you didn't mention much in yr comparison to existing NVS of yr new CSPort and Saskia. Now I'm reading you have some strong opinions on potential negatives of servo and use of such on NVS. So, you're getting greater satisfaction, immersion, from yr non-servo thread- and idler-drives? That's not to say the NVS isn't first rate. Just that it's not as fully fleshed out as the Saskia, and not quite as ethereal as the CSPort? Or am I as usual reading too much into yr words?
Marc, i got into it here on Audiogon first since the thread topic matched my current investigations to a 'T'. i've certainly suggested these conclusions on WBF too, as has Mik. but for whatever reason the dialogue did not continue there as it has here, which caused me to go deeper into it here.
recently i've been listening to much more vinyl, and really focusing on the drive differences. i've also been comparing EMAI SUT's which has focused me on turntable differences. so these ideas are fresh with me and there are lots of hours of listening behind them so my feelings are very strong and clear.
the NVS has its own unique qualities and continues to be a strong performer and supreme at certain things. but most jazz and classical i prefer the lack of a servo clearly. the CS Port and Saskia are really amazing turntables, the CS Port does things i've never heard done before anywhere. but no one knows about it so it does not resonate with people.
I see, you never heard EMT like 99% people on this forum. My friend a musician soloist flute player, conservatorium teacher and audiophile had Sota Cosmos, Thorens 124, modified Lenco 75. When he heard at his friend home EMT 950 he was so excited that he took a loan to buy EMT 950. And when he received and listened EMT 950 at his home he hastened to rid of his Sota. Why you need a Shevy when you have a BWM?
The EMTs were designed for radio station use. A considerably different spec than what us audiophiles need. If you like having old stuff that is another issue. I would love to have a 356 cab. But in no way will it perform like my 991 Turbo S. It is the aesthetic that counts. So, I can appreciate that. But if it's $10K of the absolute best turntable you can buy you get a SOTA Cosmos. It will run circles around the EMT in everything but start up torque. None of us Q records like a disc jockey. Just think of what you get with the SOTA. A hot rod motor and control system, A magnetic thrust system on the bearing, the best suspension available today and vacuum hold down. Personally, I've made up my mind. I'm gonna get an Air Force 1 Premium and slap a Reed 5T on it. Fabulous conversation piece:)
Mike, hi. I thought it was a little instructive that on WBF you didn't mention much in yr comparison to existing NVS of yr new CSPort and Saskia. Now I'm reading you have some strong opinions on potential negatives of servo and use of such on NVS. So, you're getting greater satisfaction, immersion, from yr non-servo thread- and idler-drives? That's not to say the NVS isn't first rate. Just that it's not as fully fleshed out as the Saskia, and not quite as ethereal as the CSPort? Or am I as usual reading too much into yr words?
It is weird that people on this forum are not familiar with EMT 950 and 948 DD turntables. They work different compared to Technics SP10 mk2 and mk3. EMT DD have a powerful DC motor and lightweight platter. IMHO it is much more proper servo control design. EMT DD were very expensive in 70x, 80x. 950 costed 15000DM. A number of times more expensive than Technics SP10. And they where sold on professional market before marketing era. That days, studios and radio stations knew what they pay for. Not like modern audiophiles pay for a piece of a modern art design. I also knew that Japanese audio enthusiasts prefer EMT DD turntable to their local stuff. A big part of EMT turntables where sold from Germany to Japan.
It is weird that people on this forum are not familiar with EMT 950 and 948 DD turntables. They work different compared to Technics SP10 mk2 and mk3. EMT DD have a powerful DC motor and lightweight platter. IMHO it is much more proper servo control design. EMT DD were very expensive in 70x, 80x. 950 costed 15000DM. A number of times more expensive than Technics SP10. And they where sold on professional market before marketing era. That days, studios and radio stations knew what they pay for. Not like modern audiophiles pay for a piece of a modern art design. I also knew that Japanese audio enthusiasts prefer EMT DD turntable to their local stuff. A big part of EMT turntables where sold from Germany to Japan.
I have a chance of going for a bespoke high quality replacement for the tt speed controller on my Salvation direct rim drive tt. It'll be a total punt in that I'll be buying a custom order device w no chance of hearing it. The designer is long term user of my tt/arm, and uses a Clearaudio Goldfinger (that should appeal to Mike), and so if he feels it passes muster, I'll buy w some confidence. Part of the Salvation's magic is that it doesn't use any servo feedback/loop at all. Indeed, whenever designer Vic tried to incorporate it, either an optical encoder or a voltage fluctuation gauge, the sound became colder, grainier and less compelling. Vic's existing stock tt speed controller is pure analog, set by reference to speed strobe, but is not particularly bulletproof. The bespoke replacement will have way better component count and a couple of features that make it pretty unique. And I believe, no servo feedback while lps playing.
Well said Richard. Wow and flutter after a point are more noticeable than absolute speed. That point it seems to me is 0.1%. Under this it is inaudible. Speed wandering is always a problem if it occurs rather quickly. Quickly enough to hear a pitch change during a side. A significant reason for varying opinions is that all of our experiences are anecdotal. None of us has listen to a large panel of every type of turntable under controlled circumstances. I do not like DD turntables because all the ones I have listened to in situations where I have been able to compare them directly to belt drive tables have not done well. So, in my experience DD tables are not good. But I can't accurately say all DD turntables are bad. There may be some new designs Like Mike's that may be fine. I am also talking about tables over $10K . As Richard says this is mostly a subjective hobby and unless we go out of our way to be objective (which is very hard to do) our subjectivity only applies to ourselves. Therein lies the danger of giving and taking advice as to what and what does not sound good or better. Geoffkait, I have to agree. The dynamic compression used on many CDs is disgusting. But, there are high res downloads that are incredible. Recent examples are the Punch Brothers, All Ashore and Brittany Howard's, Jaime. Lewm, I have a bunch of re mastered Miles stuff on modern Prestige pressings, many of them mono that are excellent. Lastly, everyone should take a look at Reed's 5T tonearm. What a brilliant design. I do want one of those!
Many thanks for the invite. There is a little problem of distance however, since I live in New Zealand.
I do not disagree with you at all re the signature of "most" DDs. I spent 15 years whittling away at my mk3, little by little mitigating the very signature you describe. This journey started back in the mid 80's when this trait in my Sp10 mk3 was, to me, obvious Note I did not say that I totally eliminated it. Still, I really liked the good things it did, does.
More recently, I was approached to build a ground up TT. The options were ID or DD, I chose DD. I was given total license to do what ever I wanted. This was an opportunity to apply all that I have learnt in my professional life and in this hobby and someone else was offering to pay for it. I said to myself " How hard can it be?'.....Well that turned out to be a very naïve question.
The project took five and a half years, with 1000 hours of that time ( six months, 8 hours a day, equivalent) devoted to programming the controller. There are literally thousands of setting options and many of them interact with others. We were making changes to the speed stability in the order of 0.001% and we could hear them. We were actually changing the 'shape' of the W&F. As I have said in this thread, it is really hard to get a DD to sound right. But I do not consider it to be impossible. Time will tell if others agree with me, I'm fine with their opinions either way. This is inherently a subjective hobby
Servo controllers get a bad wrap in these and other parts. Yet most of us are listening to systems where amplifiers are using feed back and we do not think twice about this. A servo controller is a form of (electro-mechanical) feedback. Its application is a bit like Goldilocks and the three bears. Too hot, too cold or just right.
Another thing which many DD owners like to demonstrate is the long term speed accuracy. Watching a stationary laser dot on a distant wall. This is touted as a virtue and proves the superiority of DD over all other drives. I do not agree, and do not claim to be able to hear the difference between a constant 33.334 and 33.332 rpm. My design doesn't concentrate on this metric. What, to me, is important is the speed accuracy at a micro level. How speed stable is the drive under dynamic load, between a few arc seconds of rotation and the next set. Firing of a shot of red light once every 1.8 seconds does not tell you jot about what is happening at this microscopic level.
thank you for the kind words my friend. it is always a pleasure discussing the finer points of vinyl playback with you.
you say that in your 3 today TTs MUSIC flows and spin with speed stability that at least you can’t detect.
I want to think that your TTs comparisons were made it using the same cartridge and at least in the NVS and Saskia with the same tonearm model.
The DD servo motor control always comes in any drive TT discusions and for the same characteristics that @richardkrebs posted here but even he can’t really detect that characteristic because he use DD TT. I have first hand experiences with several DD TTs and BD TTs but not a first rate idlerdrive one. As Richard and you I can’t detect any non-stable speed changes because the servo control.
i simply have to disagree that it is necessary to isolate cartridges and arms to draw conclusions about drive characteristics. even if we duplicate arms and cartridges, there are always synergy issues involved which can be issues. having lived with many high level direct drive tt’s in my system for almost 20 years now, with all sorts of arms and cartridges, i have a real feel for what they do, and where they are not ideal. will everyone accept my view? no, and i don’t need that to happen. i just have my reality based on my experiences.
after so many years with direct drives, you might ask why now i have added these two other turntables, the idler Sakia model two, and the string drive, high mass platter CS Port LFT1? why indeed?
it is to be able to answer this EXACT question for myself. what makes each drive type special? what can each drive type bring of value to the musical equation and allow my record collection come as fully alive as possible as i sail into retirement in the next couple of years. choosing the Saskia as the ’uber’ idler was easy, i had heard it at shows a couple of times and was always blown away, i knew Win Tinnon and so when i saw one for sale last summer i found a way to acquire it. and it’s been all i expected it to be......if not "the" top, "at" the top of the idler heap.
choosing the CS Port as my belt drive choice was more involved. i reached out to my friend Mik in the U.K. who knows more about turntables than maybe anyone anywhere, and we talked about all sorts of choices. i met Mik in 2004 when we both had Rockport Sirius III's. Mik now has -4- Rockport Sirius III's as well as maybe 75-100 other turntables.
i almost bought the VYGER Indian Mk4, but the more i spoke to Mik, the more the purity, energy and Japanese ’zen’ calmness of the CS Port appealed to me and i loved it’s low pressure low flow air bearing 60 pound platter and linear tracker. Mik has pretty much everything at his place and this was his choice for what is currently on the market.
and it’s been everything and then some to my ears for the last 6 months. that arm and that turntable transport the music to another dimension. the lack of any grain or edge, yet such musical essence is magical. and at the heart of that is the ’drive’ approach which no direct drive can capture. other high mass string drives at the top of the food chain do similar things and i’m not claiming it’s ’better’ that those others, but it has it’s own effervescence and sparkle. it digs out a level of nuance and musical truth i’ve never encountered before.
both the Saskia and CS Port have that flow and musical rightness that get’s into your body and feels right. that musical energy and life. alive, tense, and enveloping.
when i play all three turntables the drive differences are not subtle, yet all three are each excellent in their own ways. none of them fail at anything, yet each brings it’s own strengths.
So it does not matters if air bearing or DD or idlerdrive all of them are " resonating " somewhere in different way ( using the same cartridge/tonearm. ) and the cartridge is taking that overall non damped resonances/vibrations/feedback or whatever you want and for me it’s here from where comes all differences in between, at least the detectable ones.
i disagree. at these levels of execution, with the Saskia with a 200 pound plinth, and 40 pound platter.......and the CS Port with a 100 pound plinth, air bearing, and 60 pound platter, and both with truly top flight build quality, these are really completely sorted out and finished designs. neither are well known or widely heard. don’t count that against them.
both of these designs allow the arm and cartridge to be optimized. there are no compromises.
but the separator turns out to be the lack of servo on the belt and idler. i’m drawn to those two emotionally more. now that i’ve lived with those i’m always conscious of that aspect of my NVS direct drive. my NVS has the advantage of the Taiko Tana active isolation and that is an attractive aspect of listening to it as it has this other worldly ability to retain textures and fine threads of the music. and the big, powerful direct drive sound does add power to certain music that plays to big bold pieces, large scale rock and certain electronic music. it is my long term reference and so many cuts are so familiar.
however; all the theory in the world melts away when you hear a top level belt drive or idler on great vinyl. never has my vinyl listening been more satisfying than these last 6 months with these 3 turntables, i can find the ideal approach for any pressing. or hear different faces of the same pressing. it’s a cap’er to my multi-decade system building efforts.
Mr. Krebs is invited any time to hear how these compare. he can bring his SP-10 Mk3 if he likes.
Dear @mikelavigne and friends: you say that in your 3 today TTs MUSIC flows and spin with speed stability that at least you can't detect.
I want to think that your TTs comparisons were made it using the same cartridge and at least in the NVS and Saskia with the same tonearm model.
The DD servo motor control always comes in any drive TT discusions and for the same characteristics that @richardkrebs posted here but even he can't really detect that characteristic because he use DD TT. I have first hand experiences with several DD TTs and BD TTs but not a first rate idlerdrive one. As Richard and you I can't detect any non-stable speed changes because the servo control.
So I think that even that in your post you make the observation that 2 of your TTs has no servos we can't say that the differences in quality listening levels are not because the servos.
So, from where came or comes those differences ( paramount. ) ?, you pointed out the excellence in all those 3 TTs quality excecution to its designs.
It's obvious that your room/system is fine tunned at any level of excellence we could imagine or even if we can't imagine it. No doubt about.
The MUSIC sound is developed by an extremely movement sensitive sensor anamed cartridge that pick up tiny/micro movements/resonances/vibrations/feedback and the like coming by inside the TT/tonearm/tonearm board/LP/cartridge body ( at least. ).
So it does not matters if air bearing or DD or idlerdrive all of them are " resonating " somewhere in different way ( using the same cartridge/tonearm. ) and the cartridge is taking that overall non damped resonances/vibrations/feedback or whatever you want and for me it's here from where comes all differences in between, at least the detectable ones.
Additional to that we have to take in count two critical subjects due that the Csport TT comes with a LT tonearm way different to the pivoted ones in the other two TTs under comparison and the Csport tonearm is seated outside the TT main plynth and this is a difference when we listen through a room/system with so very high resolution as yours ( @atmasphere can explain this in better way than me. He is against separate tonearm towers and in theory is rigth. ) and the tonearm internal wiring is different too.
So for me differences in between has a name ( at least between the NVS/Saskia. ) : overal damping levels and I mean it at each single link inside the TT/tonearm/cartridge chain. With the Csport exist more variables and we can't really say what is " happening " in reality: the " weigth " of those variables for the differences.
All in all the NVS and Saskia seems to me as a little better overall designs than the Csport even that this one has its own " merits ". Btw, something that disturbing me a little is its average/low specs but specs means " something " but certainly not all at all.
I’ve got a couple of LP box sets of iconic recordings, by the Beatles or by Miles Davis, or by etc. Just because there is only so much time in the day, several individual LPs in these various sets have never been played. In recent weeks, because we have so little else to do, I have played some of these LPs, particularly the Miles Davis recordings on Prestige that were re-issued by Classic Records maybe 10 years ago. To my dismay some of those Classic sides are abominable. I compared the bad sounding LPs to originals on Prestige, where I own duplicates, for example “Workin’”. Old and worn though my original Prestige copy may be it kills the Classic reissue. In cases like this I far prefer digital. Too late to return that Classic box set but beware.
E, when you get to the best analog and digital, the differences/preferences go w masterings not formats.
My Miles Davis "Nefertiti" on Jap vinyl is so superior to cd, it's laughable. Go to Miles "On The Corner" and my collectors box set cd is just more immersive than the vinyl.
As you know me I am a lover of Vinyl, at least owning 8 turntables.. I just have compared the 1971 Whisbone Ash -Argus UK pressing with the SMH Japanese Platinum CD pressing. On my dCS chain, including an atomic time module, the CD is winning the comparison. Best E.
CD players miss a lot of information on the disc. Across the entire spectrum but especially noticeable in bass frequencies and treble when compared to the analog versions. Or compared to Fully tweaked CD players. Also, tonality is not Right, nor is all the air and warmth there that should be. And don’t get me started on dynamics, which are killer on many LPs and cassettes but obviously, due to Loudness Wars, are MIA on a lot of everyone’s favorite CDs. Please no angry personal messages.
It took me three decades as a resolute pro analog guy to find a cdp that totally satisfies me, the Eera Tentation I bought in 2014. In the time I've owned my Eera that was likely beating my analog when it was first installed, I've taken that analog rig (Trans Fi Salvation rim drive tt w Terminator LT air tonearm and Soundsmith Straingauge cart), and abs maxxed it out (bespoke LPSs to tt motor and Straingauge energiser, SOTA Stacore Adv 93kg passive isolation platform under tt, upgraded Terminator arm, mag lev tt bearing and tt footers etc). My Eera cdp is still abs compelling as one of the few digital pieces that nails analog-like flow and tone density, but my analog rig has leapfrogged it...in terms of presence, timbral accuracy, tonal differentiation, and a heavenly combination of heft and speed...the rim drive Salvation tt is the iron fist, the Terminator air arm/Straingauge cart is the velvet glove. I'm currently listening to the John Coltrane "Selflessness" live lp on original Impulse label, and there is so much going on in terms of transients, polyrythmns, cascading twin horns, and crashing percussion, yet despite this organised chaos, the vinyl sounds totally vital. The cd I've heard here on my Eera is more organised, but more polite and decluttered, losing energy and spirit. I'm in the happy place of total zen calm w my cd replay after three decades cursing digital Lol...but my really well blended and executed analog front end just reveals more magic, and the bottom line is, it's more compelling in a way digital cannot match let alone exceed.
Lewm Not sure if that is the exact cause but I would agree that while my digital replay is good especially on Qobuz 192/24 files it just NEVER gets my toe tapping or pulse racing like my 401 can and does.
Its hard to describe as I would say my digital replay is certainly good although not top flight but it just lacks the dynamics and swing that I get from analog playback and at times with the right tape that I even get with cassette from my Nak ZX7.
I think HP of all people nailed it when he noted that digital reproduction effects a high pass filter albeit at a very low frequency which seems to rob the music of its natural ambiance. The bass drops off a cliff, metaphorically speaking. You don’t hear it as lack of bass per se. HP described it as a reduction in downward dynamic range. I hear it with red book CD and with SACD. I don’t know if it is still the case for current Hi-Rez streaming types of reproduction. But a friend of mine who is into that sort of thing, and who also has high end vinyl equipment, does still hear a difference in favor of vinyl.
You gotta love this hobby. I've been in it since the age of 15 so 45 years. The other day I was listening to a well recorded live album of an artist I have seen many times, and on certain (but not all) cuts it was startling how real it sounded. I have never had that sensation with my digital rig (Aurender and Abbingdon Music Research DP777 with Wireworld's most expensive USB (Platinum Starlight Something Ridiculous)). My present thought with vinyl is that you have higher highs and lower lows than with digital, but when you get things right and have a damned good cartridge, magic can happen. My 301 has a VdH Crimson Strad on it. FWIW, I think the cartridge I have-dialed in by Brian Walsh-is a critical part of reaching this level of vinyl playback. And with all that said, it does not happen every day. I could probably play back that same record tonight and the magic won't happen. The zombie-dust stuff is at play whether it be ascribed to hearing differences day to day, atmospheric things, electrical, ambient noise, etc.
Love the sound of your 301 fsonic, would love to really hear it. My much more modest 401 in 45lb birch and curly maple plinth with micro seiki ma505ls arm has outperformed anything else I have ever owned to my ears. But I think I just love the idler sound, the dynamic presentation and life that no dd or belt has yet shown me. Of course I have not ventured into the rarified air of 5 figure plus tables so I don’t know what I don’t know. Unless I win the lottery I don’t see my 401 going anywhere soon.
I built my modified Lenco based on Win Tinnon's recommendations. Slate plinth, PTP top plate, platter painted and damped to reduce resonance, huge aftermarket bearing with under-platter clamp, from Jeremy in the UK, Phoenix Engineering Motor Controller. It performs up there with anything else I own. The total investment there is under $2K, partly I guess because I subcontracted the making of the slate plinth. Peter Reinders (source for the PTP) supplied a pdf file to program the waterjet; the actual cutting was done by a company in York, PA. Slate came from the same quarry in PA used by OMA. I was fortunate to source an NOS Lenco as the basis for that project, for only $500.
At 53K before tonearm I would hope the Saskia has what your previous DD’s did not. I would love to hear one to compare with my much less expensive set-ups.
the Rockport Sirius III direct drive was way more expensive than the Saskia even back when i owned it. now a nice one would run you over $100k. but i think cost is not a good way to view things, especially turntables. we find real gems sometimes at modest investments.
I have maybe 18K in my hot-rodded 301. 4K for a nearly NOS drive unit. Close to 2K for a solid brass platter, another 1K for a solid brass spindle/main bearing, close to 2K for a PSU to decrease motor noise, 3K for a custom plinth that weighs 50 lbs or so in layered cherry with cocobolo outer veneer, another 2K for things like an AS idler wheel and stillpointes, and 4K for my Reed 3P arm.
congrats on your Garrard.
i owned a Steve Dobbins Garrard 301 with a Loricraft UPS power supply and a Reed arm back in 2009-2011. i loved that turntable. yours sounds very special. no reason it might not be head to head with my Saskia.
thank you for the kind words about my Saskia, i do consider it a very special piece and enjoy it's way of making the music come alive every day. no doubt idlers do some certain things for the music that seems essential to me.
i’ve owned a number of top flight direct drive turntables; including the Rockport Sirius III, the SP-10 Mk2 and Mk3, and now the Wave Kinetics NVS for the last 9 years. taken singularly; none of those were obviously lacking in speed solidity and musical flow. but over these last 6-9 months, in direct side by side comparison to the Saskia model two idler, and the CS Port LFT1 Belt drive, neither of which have servo’s......this idea of the human ear hearing the musical cost of feedback is very real.
execution of an idler or belt to the degree to take full advantage of the lack of feedback is paramount, but when you do your ’ears’ will thank you.
At 53K before tonearm I would hope the Saskia has what your previous DD’s did not. I would love to hear one to compare with my much less expensive set-ups. I have maybe 18K in my hot-rodded 301. 4K for a nearly NOS drive unit. Close to 2K for a solid brass platter, another 1K for a solid brass spindle/main bearing, close to 2K for a PSU to decrease motor noise, 3K for a custom plinth that weighs 50 lbs or so in layered cherry with cocobolo outer veneer, another 2K for things like an AS idler wheel and stillpointes, and 4K for my Reed 3P arm. I trust yours sounds even better (since you are a regular on what’s best) and I happily surrender as to bragging rights and perhaps curb appeal. I can not convey how much pleasure my 301 gives me in every way. I have grown to love it more than my totally hot-rodded TD124 with nearly identical improvements and arm. By a smidge. Both combine the durability of transcription table design with modern aspects and yet again with vintage aesthetics. To me and perhaps me only, a turntable need not look like a piece of laboratory equipment. And I don’t think the Saskia looks like lab equipment, but stuff from TechDas et al.......
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