Hi @thuchan ,
Did you have an experience with DD EMT turntables (950, 948, 938)?
Regards,
Alex.
Did you have an experience with DD EMT turntables (950, 948, 938)?
Regards,
Alex.
Direct Drive vs. Idler Drive vs. Belt drive
I'd like to know your thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of each drive system. I can see that direct drive is more in vogue over the last few years but is it superior to the other drive systems? I've had first-hand experiences with two out of the three drive systems but looking to learn more.
Showing 23 responses by alexberger
I had Nottingham Spacedeck and moved to heavy plinth Lenco 78 with SME 3009mk2 tonearm. Lenco won in term of PRaT, piano and organ tone, better bass, better instrument separation, more musical. No rumble. And Lenco wasn’t expensive High End turntable it was mid budget turntable. Belt drive like Nottingham kills rhythm nuances and plays separate sounds. The general picture of music the essence of interpretation itself is disappears. Regards, Alex. |
Hi @terry9 , Nottingham Analogue Sapcedeck is not entry level. It was a third level after HORIZON and INTERSPACE. I bought Nottingham Sapcedeck with Spaecarm in 2002 a brand new by full price. I bought EMT948 in 2011 on eBay used by 2400 Euro. Yes I know that it costed 12000 DM brand new back in 1980x. But I payed a similar amount of money for both turntables. An I also had Lenco L78 in between 2010-2011. And I liked this low budget TT more than Nottingham Sapcedeck. Regards, Alex. |
Al EMT DD are good suspended. Two my friends - One sold Linn LP12 for EMT 948 and other one sold Sota for EMT 950. Other my friend prefer EMT 948 over Kenwood L07d and Technics SP10mk2, but he likes Yamaha GT-2000 as much as EMT. I think than EMT 950 is the most unic DD. It was introduced in 1976. It weighs ~80Kg and has ultra light rubber plate and powerful coreless motor. Even some EMT and vintage TT collectors prefer EMT 950 over idler drive EMT 927 and 930. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektro-Mess-Technik |
I agree than servo feedback can cause some compression. But if the motor-platter system has a smaller inertia the harm is leser. Because that EMT 950 that has a very powerful motor and very light platter sound best and most dynamic compared to other DD turntables. Yes, the belt drive have advantage of very low noise. BUT, when you listen an orchestra,on one hand you can listen a 10th violin separately and other small details, but on the other hand the rhythm and flow of music is broken by belt drive momentary speed fluctuations. I think the rhythm accuracy and flow of music is much more important than small details. I agree than servo feedback can cause some compresion. But if the motor-platter system has a smaller interia the harm is leser. Because that EMT 950 that has a very powerful motor and very light platter sound best and most dynamic compared to other DD turntables. Belt drive have advantage of very low noise. But OK, when you listen an orchestra, on one hand you can listen a 10th violin and other small details, but on the other hand the rhythm and flow of music is broken by belt drive momentary speed fluctuations. I think the rhythm accuracy and flow of music is much more important than small details. |
In belt drive, you need to have everything ideal, otherwise the speed is floating. A freqsion of needle, and bearing decrease the speed, the motor doesn't control the platter but tries to hold a speed constant and it makes a belt tension change and speed oscillation. Every small change of belt tension, material, width change sound dramatically. Bass has rubber, soft sound, PRAT is broken. For classical music, especially piano music or fine rhythm jazz belt drive completely kills rhythm details and changes music for unconnected set of sounds. |
Here is Anatoly Markovich Liknitsky article where he compares idler and belt drive. Sorry for a bad translation from Russian language. "Why is an idler drive better than a belt drive? If you focus only on reducing rumble, the Belt really has an undeniable advantage. After all, he has more flexibility than a movie. True, this is true only as long as the passage of vibrations along the second path is not taken into account. If we compare these drives with a predisposition to detonation, then all the advantages are on the side of the idler drive. It remains only to answer the question, what bothers us more: rumble or detonation? I personally am of the opinion that rumble is an unfortunate hindrance to the perception of music, while detonation of sound, especially low-frequency (with modulation frequencies below 10 Hz), even inaudible, destroys the integrity of music to the ground. It is because of this integrity that an idler drive should be preferred. I’ll try to explain why the idler drive has advantages in terms of detonation. In a belt drive, the moment of inertia of the disk and the moment of flexibility of the belt (rotational flexibility) form a low-pass filter [6] of the second order, which frees the rotation of this disk from irregularities. The source of irregularities can be a drive motor, as well as mechanical transmission elements of this rotation (idlers, belts, gears, etc.). It would seem that cleaning rotation from irregularities is very useful if you do not take into account that due to the absence of losses in the belt, a pronounced resonance is formed with a Q factor of 20-30 at the cut off frequency of this filter. This resonance, as it turned out, does not weaken, but rather enhances the irregularity of rotation. Due to insignificant mechanical disturbances in the drive, caused, for example, by slightly uneven friction in the axis of the rotary disk or by slightly varying thickness of the belt, a rotational “swing” of the disk occurs at the frequency of this resonance. We call this phenomenon, similar to the rotational oscillations of a pendulum in a mechanical watch, rotational resonance. Swinging of the disk in a belt drive is usually observed at frequencies of the order of tenths of a hertz and therefore causes low-frequency destructive music detonation of sound. For similar reasons, the actual, that is, not weighted, low-frequency detonation of sound in the B1-01 Electronics player reaches 0.5%. It can only be reduced by damping rotational resonance. However, in a belt drive, this damping is practically not feasible. Nobody has yet succeeded in making a flexible belt with the necessary internal attenuation, and adding viscous mechanical resistance to the axial bearing of the rotary disk, although partially correcting the situation, will increase the load on the drive motor to unacceptable limits. Trying to solve this problem, some companies tried to apply a belt, inflexible in the longitudinal direction, for example, waxed cotton thread, and immediately faced a new problem: how to hold such a belt in tension? After all, without tension, he will not be able to rotate the rotary disk and in the end it will simply fall down. The way out of this predicament is to pull the thread with a passive idler held by a spring or elastically suspended by a drive motor. By the way, in a similar way, that is, with the help of a thread stretched by a spring, the unit of variable capacitors was rotated in the radios of the 30s. But what have we come to? A thread drawn by a spring is a thread with flexibility introduced into it, and without mechanical losses! So, it turns out that we are back to where we started. The “inflexible belt” turned out to be a beautiful myth, which allowed for one audio season to hide the problem of the belt drive under the carpet. There is also rotational resonance in the idler drive, however, it is well damped and therefore does not enhance the detonation of sound. Good, that is, critical resonance damping is achieved in this drive in a natural way, due to the successful combination of flexibility and mechanical resistance of the rubber ring nozzle on the idler. No wonder the drive of this type was originally called friction." |
Hi @mijostyn , I had Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck and Lenco L78. I used a heavy 20kg plywood plinth with Lenco and vintage SME 3009 mk2 tonearm. With the same cartridge Lenco had: Better bass, better separation better PRAT. In term of dynamic and tone (on vocal, strings) both turntables sounded similar. On piano and organ Lenco sounded much better. The classical piano interpretations had logic and content on Lenco, in contrast on Nottingham classical piano interpretations sound like unconnected set on notes. My friends and I moved to DD EMT (950, 948) turntables and they don’t sound muddy at all. The one important thing - don’t use EMT (950, 948) internal phonostage. Regards, Alex. |
Hi @thuchan , Yes, 3 motor belt drive solutions like Audio Note or Clear Audio have to be technically excellent in term of Wow and flutter. I didn’t listen these turntables at my home. They are out of my budget. I listened 3 motor Clear Audio in other system. It is really good. But I can’t compare it to my stuff, because the system was different (including the cartridge). What is really matter for me, I spent $500 for Lenco + SME 3009 + plinth. Which belt drive turntable in this price range (including second hand) can compete to Lenco? Nothing came even close!!! I bought EMT 948 with EMT 929 tonearm for 2500 Euro. Which belt drive turntable in this price range (including second hand) can compete to EMT 948? Regards, Alex. |
Hi @lewm , People think that belt drive is a black magic, technically perfect solution. You just need a heavy platter on a good bearing and you have very low, inaudible level of Wow and flutter. But it doesn’t work this way. At least, mid-price belt drive turntable have a very perceptible level of Wow and flutter, and it is much worse than rumble that good designed, affordable idler drive like Lenco has. Regards, Alex. |
Hi @mijostyn , Good designed idle drive and DD don’t have high level of rumble. But Steinway piano on a belt drive turntables sounds like cheap $100 electrical piano. The sound of organ on a belt drive turntables is a total disaster. If you listen pop music and sounds you don’t care, but for classical music a fine rhythm accuracy is everything. The fine rhythm makes a difference between a genius interpretation and mediocre interpretation. Also belt drive turntable sound has lack of energy, dynamics and life. I think belt drive fashion it is the worst delusion in Hi-End audio. Regards, Alex. |
It is weird that people on this forum are not familiar with EMT 950 and 948 DD turntables. They work different compared to Technics SP10 mk2 and mk3. EMT DD have a powerful DC motor and lightweight platter. IMHO it is much more proper servo control design. EMT DD were very expensive in 70x, 80x. 950 costed 15000DM. A number of times more expensive than Technics SP10. And they where sold on professional market before marketing era. That days, studios and radio stations knew what they pay for. Not like modern audiophiles pay for a piece of a modern art design. I also knew that Japanese audio enthusiasts prefer EMT DD turntable to their local stuff. A big part of EMT turntables where sold from Germany to Japan. |
Hi @mijostyn , I see, you never heard EMT like 99% people on this forum. My friend a musician soloist flute player, conservatorium teacher and audiophile had Sota Cosmos, Thorens 124, modified Lenco 75. When he heard at his friend home EMT 950 he was so excited that he took a loan to buy EMT 950. And when he received and listened EMT 950 at his home he hastened to rid of his Sota. Why you need a Shevy when you have a BWM? Regards, Alex |
Hi @mikelavigne , Which vintage DD turntables are your favorites? My musicant-audiophile fried had both EMT950 and 948. In the end, he decided sell 948 and left for himself 950. But he told the difference was't too big. In my case, I had Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck/Spacearm, Lenco L78 on heavy plinth and SME 3009mk2 tonearm and EMT 948 with 929 tonearm. I liked Lenco more than Nottingham. EMT 948 is much better then both Lenco and Nottingham. Regards, Alex |
Hi @mikelavigne , Yes, all people have a different taste. One my friend had in his system:Kenwood L-07D, EMT 948, Technics SP10mk2, Yamaha GT-2000. He liked Yamaha the most and EMT the second. But, to his taste: L-07D and SP10mk2 sound too sterile. In any case most of these top vintage Japanese and German DDs are very good machines. I'm not a typical audiophile and I don't change equipment too often. I have been using EMT 948 since 2011 and I am not going to change it. The truth is, I could live with Lenco L78. It was a very nice, musical turntable. Regards, Alex |
Hi @chakster , This my friend Guy Landau appired on different forums from 1990x. I don’t know on which forums he appears right now. I don’t have data which tonarm did he used with each of these turtables. I remember he used FR64 old version on sp10. But I know he likes to play with different tonearms and he has anough experience to recognize what and how influenced to the total sound. I used SME 3009mk2 on Lenco and 20kg birch playwood plinth. I used Ortofon Jubilee and Ortofon Rondo Bronze cartridges. I used the same cartridges on Nottingham Spacedeck with Spacearm tonearm. I use EMT 929 to arm on EMT948 with EMT TSD15 SFL and TSD15 SPH cartridges. I used the same phonostage with all turtables. |