Well analyzed and well said, Ralph (Atmasphere), as I would expect. BTW, Geoff has said at least one thing in this thread that I agree with, although he did not originate the saying. From one of his posts above:
Keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out.
Best regards, -- Al |
I hate to speak before all the facts are in but it kind of appears that
you are the only one confused by the symbol that looks pretty much like
an arrow. What makes matters worse for your position is that the HiFi
Tuning fuses actually sound considerably better when the arrow thingie
is pointed in the right direction. At least that’s what people who have
actually heard the HiFi Tuning fuses say. Furthermore Isoclean has
actual, you know, arrows that should not be so darn confusing on their
fuses. Have for twenty years. The test data sheets on the HiFi Tuning
web site are actually from an independent testing facility. Hel-loo! As
it turns out you have apparently bought into the old wives take that
fuses are not directional.
Well, the facts **are** in. The symbol to which I refer is a stylized diode symbol (its not an arrow; that one was good for some laughs around here) bypassed by a capacitor. However it is really a stylization which is why I used the word 'logo'. Measurements of the fuse show no diode characteristics (and as Thom just pointed out as I did a couple of pages earlier, if it did have such effect, it would fail quite quickly in an AC application) nor any capacitive effects. Further, if there was a diode effect, in one direction it might not work at all. Disassembly of the fuse shows it to be constructed in a way similar if not identical to other commercially available fuses (a ceramic tube with a lightweight wire fuse element within; FWIW the wire appears to be damped by a lightweight insulation, presumably to limit or damp the motion that otherwise can be observed in many fuses when current is applied. Its likely that this insulation is the primary improvement, more important than the plated ends. These fuses were originally imported by a customer of ours, who sent samples to us. He never at any time indicated anything about them being directional. The directional aspect is clearly a made-up story not supported by fact or for that matter, the past or current importer. It is supported only by expectation bias; anyone who really wants to get to the bottom of it will find that if they try reversing the fuse again after finding the 'favorable' direction, will find a similar benefit in the other direction. That is if they keep an open mind. Any supposition that the fuse is directional is mistaken, any commercial entity that attempts to convince others that this is so is engaging in fantasy. If a fuse really were directional, it would have inherently inferior properties compared to a non-directional fuse. And again, our customers do report positive results using this and similar fuses. About this they are quite adamant! None of them have reported any directional characteristics, and since the inception of this thread, several have made a point to us that auditioning them in either direction has had a null result. |
Yep, I can read minds off written notes and off the verbal conversation.
Often I take what’s meant instead of what’s said or written due to some degree of telepathy ability.
P.S. Geoff, Never go to comedy club on the first row. I always do because I can laugh back and make others laughing. Would you like any English Refresh course by any chance? |
Czarivey wrote,
"I believe that OP was just joking and perhaps laughing his AO, but Machina Dynamica takes it VERY SERIOUSLY LOL!
Rock on Geoff, Fly your thoughts free.
Peace brother!"
You believe the OP was joking? I see an English refresh course in your future. Keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. Things a little slow at Pizza Hut, hippy dude? |
I believe that OP was just joking and perhaps laughing his AO, but Machina Dynamica takes it VERY SERIOUSLY LOL!
Rock on Geoff, Fly your thoughts free.
Peace brother! |
" Apparently no thread is too "old" for you to over post. "
You sound like a parrot on that one already too!!!
Rather how about stop spouting useless nonsense repeatedly here for free, buy some paid advertising and all can live happily ever after.
|
How about if someone cares enough at this point to worry about the direction of their fuses just let them try it and live happily ever after whichever way it works out. That would be a lot more practical. Or just listen to Geoffkait and be miserable knowing 50% on average of teh stuff in your audio circuits are installed the wrong way.
Happy listening....
|
Thom wrote,
"Another consideration regarding directionality. A fuse which is properly specified for the circuit is half way toward melting."
How so, Thom? If that’s actually true, what is the relationship of being "half way toward melting" to directionality? Just curious.
|
Geoffkait: "Where is all this angst and hostility coming from?"
to which Mapman responded,
"Look in the mirror."
Mapman, I took your advice and looked in the mirror. However I did not see my reflection. What’s up with that? Apparently no thread is too "old" for you to over post.
Nice stalking with you.
Georgie, are you experiencing a full moon down under or something?
|
Another consideration regarding directionality. A fuse which is properly specified for the circuit is half way toward melting.
Just sayin' ...
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
|
And to add to this absurd sound difference of fuses and their direction detection. Now, with substantial hours in and all-SR Black fuses in the amp, here’s what my ears hear (forgive my lack of audiophile vocabulary, I’ll just describe it as best I can): - Improved instrument separation, placement, and 3-dimensionality - Perception of more immediacy and "smack/oomph" - Lower, tighter, punchier bass - Overall just a better sense of musicality - I feel there was a very, very subtle loss of realism in instrument/vocal texture.
GK post the links that collaborate your findings on direction v sound of fuses. Or take it all to your website, where just about everything is VOODOO! and this directional fuse stuff won’t feel out of place on it. And as far as your explanation of arrows, that you can’t verify with documented manufacturers proof. May I suggest that you need to investigate that the so called "arrow" is for inserting it the right way round where the sun don’t shine. http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-vector-pooping-emoticon-67254478.jpg
Cheers George |
To member Whitestix, thank you for the advice you provided on the previous page of this thread. Sage counsel, IMO.
Regards,
-- Al
|
Atmasphere wrote,
"Incorrect. They don’t mark the fuse with arrows indicating its directionality, they mark it with a logo that is easily confused. This is done to buy into the myth that fuses are directional, and thus they sell more fuses. There is no directional data that exists, at least none that can be verified by independent test."
I hate to speak before all the facts are in but it kind of appears that you are the only one confused by the symbol that looks pretty much like an arrow. What makes matters worse for your position is that the HiFi Tuning fuses actually sound considerably better when the arrow thingie is pointed in the right direction. At least that’s what people who have actually heard the HiFi Tuning fuses say. Furthermore Isoclean has actual, you know, arrows that should not be so darn confusing on their fuses. Have for twenty years. The test data sheets on the HiFi Tuning web site are actually from an independent testing facility. Hel-loo! As it turns out you have apparently bought into the old wives take that fuses are not directional.
The more you try to convince someone who has his mind made up using logic and rational debate the more convinced he is that everyone else is wrong, trying to trick him or there’s some global conspiracy. Lol
geoff kait |
When a manufacturer marks it’s fuses with directional arrows it means
they believe their fuses are uh, directional. When a manufacturer
publishes detailed measurement data that shows differences in resistance
depending on direction of the fuse it means the manufacturer believes
fuses are directional. Incorrect. They don't mark the fuse with arrows indicating its directionality, they mark it with a logo that is easily confused. This is done to buy into the myth that fuses are directional, and thus they sell more fuses. There is no directional data that exists, at least none that can be verified by independent test. @georgelofi , +1 |
czarivey- George, look at Geoff’s site. He’s got much-more-a-plenty-more of artifacts of audio -- you’ll be truly amazed and amused!
I know I’ve seen it, he really does stick pins in dolls.
And GK you still haven’t posted links to documented fuse manufacturers poof of directionality of fuses. I ask once again please post the links!
Cheers George |
"Where is all this angst and hostility coming from? "
Look in the mirror.
But I’m sure its no mystery. Repeating the same thing over and over like a parrot no matter what tends to have that effect on people.
We know Geofkait says all wires are directional and why already 10X over. Enough already.
Your act is getting old and predictable.
|
Nop,
I'm hippie -- Peace Brother
Stand for Sincerity, Humanity and just simply trivial common sense. If there are none, I certainly become angry comrade and turn humor to sarcasm or visa versa.
|
Czarivey, where is all this angst and hostility coming from? Are you guys auditioning for 12 Angry Comrades? |
George, look at Geoff's site. He's got much-more-a-plenty-more of artifacts of audio -- you'll be truly amazed and amused!
|
I really wish you would try to keep up with the discussion, George. When a manufacturer marks it’s fuses with directional arrows it means they believe their fuses are uh, directional. When a manufacturer publishes detailed measurement data that shows differences in resistance depending on direction of the fuse it means the manufacturer believes fuses are directional. And not just fancy audiophile fuses; and not just fuses in DC applications. Every Yutz with ears knows that all fuses are directional. Wake up and smell the coffee! PS - It’s hard to see what your new avatar is. I’m guessing it’s supposed to be a loose cannon. Am I close?
|
And you think you've found the holy grail on directional fuses, even though there is no manufacturers documented evidence you can link to. Like your avatar it's all voodoo. Cheers George |
Atmasphere, you've convinced me that your customers didn't mention fuse directionality. However, that fact is hardly proof or even evidence that "boutique" fuses as you call them are NOT directional. You seem to believe it's actually proof.
|
Mo-mo money for mo co-co...
Armasphere, my customers are probably older than your customers. That would explain why they all know about wire and fuse directionality. ;-)
Geoff Kait Machina DramaQueen No Goats No Glory |
Chances are good any customers who know you doesn’t wish to irritate you by bringing up fuse directionality. ;-)
This statement is false. Our customers are quite eager to supply feedback and we pay attention to it. |
Perhaps Phil needs some mo-mo-money?
Artists should go back to analogue. This way they will protect their copyrights better.
Love and support the idea |
It's all a joke to some but I suppose everyone loves a good mystery....
I’m a born in the wool Genesis fan from way back in Peter Gabriel days. Gotta respect Phil Collins. A truly talented artist who has always bucked the odds for success. As long as he’s still kicking I am always interested to hear what he might do next.
|
Point of fact is they seem to get the attention of non audiophiles and pseudo audiophiles more often.
;-)
Hey, did you hear that Phil Collins is making a record for the first time in a long time? He's back in the Stu-stu-studio. |
Things labelled "audiophile" seem to most often be called that to get the attention of audiophiles who are likely the only ones to care enough about whatever it is being pitched for better sound.
If these products are truly so great, especially for the bargain audiophile price of only $100 or so, Why don't any others care?
Just pondering out loud.
|
I touched that partially and seen prohibition similarity.
I do speak direct language -- you, Geoff and probably many, don’t.
|
Czarivey, you appear to be approximately two paradigm shifts behind the power curve, if you don't mind my saying so too much. Did you perchance miss out on the whole Perestroyka thing?
|
Atmasphere wrote,
"So far all the comments we have received on boutique fuses have been positive. However for all those comments, not one of them has mentioned anything about directionality."
Chances are good any customers who know you doesn’t wish to irritate you by bringing up fuse directionality. ;-)
Atmasphere also wrote,
"The feedback we have goes back about to about 2006 or so when the fuses seemed to move from the automotive stereo community to high end audio."
Autmotive stereo community? Say what?! Exotic fuses were introduced twenty years ago by Isoclean (Japan) and HiFi Tuning (Germany) to the high end audio community. Hel-loo!
Geoff Kait
Machinadynamica.com
|
If anyone looks at machina dynamica product lineup, one should understand that their products relate to audio the same way the fuse directionality does. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htmThat looks like purchase from BB&B + story how it works = 20x profit. For some fools works... Math can solve most of science problems indeed. |
As a long time manufacturer of amplifiers and pre- amplifiers I hope you
will share in detail the feedback your customers have conveyed to you
concerning which fuses improved the sound and which did not. So far all the comments we have received on boutique fuses have been positive. However for all those comments, not one of them has mentioned anything about directionality. The feedback we have goes back about to about 2006 or so when the fuses seemed to move from the automotive stereo community to high end audio. |
Thom wrote,
"...and I’ll get back to my amplifier project before further damage ensues."
Speaking of amplifiers, assuming for the sake of argument that all wire is directional, imagine how much better Amplifier A would be if all internal wiring was connected with directionality in mind. Point to point wiring, transformer wiring, capacitors, resistors, etc. And of course all cabling coming into and leaving the amplifier.
g |
Thom, no harm, no foul. These guys beat you to the punch in this thread. The shielding argument is probably the leading argument used by skeptics of wire directionality. Followed closely by oxidation on contacts removed during test, placebo effect, expectation bias and a change in house AC voltage.
Atmasphere: "There can be reasons why a cable has directionality (mostly having to do with how the shield is constructed; this has nothing to do with fuses)."
Mapman: "Right my understanding is the reason the Monster wires are directional as indicated is because of the shield implementation. That’s pretty much the only reason that I have read of. My MIT wires have no indicators and I can’t say if it matters or not there. Fuses are a different story. Most high end audio fuse makers seem to leave a lot to the end listener’s imagination."
Georgelofi: "Yes you are correct some interconnects can be directional, ones that have +&- conductors with a shield, that’s only connected at one end, that end should be at poweramp.
But fuses are not shielded. And I still ask you or anyone else to post any manufacturers ad/doc that SAYS they are directional. "It’s all VOODOO" that you are promoting."
Cheers,
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
|
Geoff,
We’re in agreement that a shielded interconnect presents two variables which are potentially at odds with each other - the recommended directionality based on the which end the shield is grounded to vs. the grain orientation of the wire.
In bringing up shielded interconnects, I saw no mention of them earlier in this thread. It’s entirely possible my mind was numbed from reading it. I’ll take that as a hint that it’s potentially making me stupid and I’ll get back to my amplifier project before further damage ensues.
Thom @ Galibier Design
|
Czarivey wrote,
"In terms of Newton's Inertia law with applied theory of limits:
If consumed lots of calories of bs per second, i agree it’s very hard to get rid of those calories. Under Inertia law one will continue consuming bs even if no external force is applied."
Apparently somebody's been consuming a lot of Bunnahabhain Scotch (bs).
|
In terms of Newton's Inertia law with applied theory of limits:
If consumed lots of calories of bs per second, i agree it’s very hard to get rid of those calories. Under Inertia law one will continue consuming bs even if no external force is applied.
|
Czarivey wrote,
"Most of sciences can be easily checked and challenged with elementary math equations. Poor education = strong police and army = lots of wars = lots of dummies that willing to spend money on various type of unnecessary cwap = resisting a free education by all possible means."
Newton’s First Law (Inertia): an object will continue along in the same direction at the same speed unless acted on by an outside force.
F = 0
dv/dt = 0
;-)
cheers,
Geoff Kait
machina dramatica
no goats no glory
|
I really don't understand why anybody would bother to say that fuse direction doesn't matter. None of us who do hear a difference care what you think. And you, of course, don't care what we think. For about thirty years I heard this nonsense argument. Enough!!! |
Most of sciences can be easily checked and challenged with elementary math equations:
for example:
poor education = strong police and army = lots of wars = lots of dummies that willing to spend money on various type of unnecessary cwap = resisting a free education by all possible means.
Do your math than it's easier to figure out science.
|
Thom wrote,
"Your excluding shielded designs from the discussion is a bit of a strawman, since the vast majority of cables are shielded and therefore have directionality "mandated" by the shield connection, which I’d hazard a guess has a random relationship with the orientation of the signal wire’s directionality in cables from most manufacturers.
Of course, one can reverse the connection of shielded cables with (electrical impunity)."
Actually I didn’t exclude shielded designs from the discussion. So your statement is actually the Strawman. What I said was it’s more difficult to establish what’s going on in a shielded design since the sound is directional for BOTH the shield AND the conductor. You can think of it as trying to solve two simultaneous equations. But since I’m a nice guy here’s what you can do. Measure the voltage drop across the shielded interconnect, first one direction then the other. Just like the measurements of the fuses on the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Since the shield is not connected at one end you will be measuring the voltage drop of the conductor only. The voltage drop will be somewhat less one way than the other. Just like the fuses on the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Thus, you will be able to determine which way the *conductor* should be connected in the system. The only issue then will be, does the correct orientation of the shield agree with the correct orientation of the conductor. If the manufacturer was a clever fellow (or a lucky fellow) it will. Follow?
Thom also wrote,
"Fuse directionality? Knock your socks off. As implied earlier however, the experiment needs some controls, and one of them I didn’t see mentioned was simply removing and reinstalling the fuse in the SAME orientation. It’s entirely possible that the act of removing/installing a fuse slightly alters the contact pressure and this is what people are reporting."
You’re absolutely correct, there is a possibility that the contact pressure is somehow altered, or that some oxidation is scraped off during the experiment, or that it’s the placebo effect or expectation bias or some other variable. But if the experiment is done carefully those other possibilities can be eliminated from consideration. Just like for any experiment.
geoff kait
machina dynamica |
Hi gdnrbob,
IF fuses are directional, AND manufacturers know this,
Then, Why
can't they tell us which way to orient the fuse for most musical
reproduction? As I said earlier, Pat as SMc, said to try them one way
and reverse them later and see what sounded better. To my feeble mind,
if these things are directional, then you must know which way is best
without needing to switch things around.
There are too many phase relationships which a manufacturer can't predict: from your speaker's crossovers (and speaker wire connection) to the number of gain stages in your amplification chain - even # or odd # (phase non-inverted vs. phase inverted). People hear what they hear for all sorts of reasons that are out of the manufacturer's control. If this concerns you enough, then you should experiment. If it doesn't you're one of the fortunate ones who enjoys listening to music playing through your hi-fi :-) Cheers, Thom @ Galibier Design |
Once again, Geoff,
Your excluding shielded designs from the discussion is a bit of a strawman, since the vast majority of cables are shielded and therefore have directionality "mandated" by the shield connection, which I’d hazard a guess has a random relationship with the orientation of the signal wire’s directionality in cables from most manufacturers.
Of course, one can reverse the connection of shielded cables with (electrical) impunity.
Assuming a 50% chance of randomly assembled wire being oriented consistently with the shield’s gounding scheme, one is still faced with the choice of experimenting with orientation, and I’d be the last person to stop someone from experimenting.
Fuse directionality? Knock your socks off. As implied earlier however, the experiment needs some controls, and one of them I didn't see mentioned was simply removing and reinstalling the fuse in the SAME orientation. It's entirely possible that the act of removing/installing a fuse slightly alters the contact pressure and this is what people are reporting.
I already covered my risk tolerance with respect to these fuses in another thread, but suffice it to say, Roger Modjewski's comments carry some weight with me and support my approach - irrespective of whether they're being used in an AC or DC application.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design
|
geoffkaitGeorge, I take it you’re forfeiting? Excellent move.
No!! just over your VOODOO bu****it trying to make yourself a guru with the gullible here, even though your technically inept. Or maybe your just shilling for a fuse manufacturer. Without any documented evidence of directionality proof on fuses from the manufacturer, which I asked many times for you to post a link to.
Cheers George |
Thanks Almarg, your recommendations are always appreciated.
Power in NYS is pretty stable, so there is less difference than folks on the West Coast where I have been told line voltage varies considerably during the day (actually, it was told to me by SMc).
I actually listened to the system for 3 days with the fuses oriented in one direction, so I was sure I was hearing the changes of what I thought I heard. I am pretty analytic by nature and have a good memory for sound, if that makes sense. When I was sure of what I noticed, I then moved the fuse to the opposite direction. It was apparent that there was a difference in sound quality and it was very evident.
I will take your advice, though, and try reversing them using the same music, at the same loudness, etc. in order to be as non-judgemental as possible.
Though, I will say that, yes, fuses do change the color of the music. In my case, it was dramatic. |
George, I take it you're forfeiting? Excellent move.
cheerios
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Listen to yourself GK. You are certifiable, and should be committed asap. Cheers George |
George wrote,
"Let just say GK your bu****it is correct and that it is directional, do you honestly believe that you have the "Golden Ears" to be able to pick it up with just 1/2" of wire.
Then sunshine, what about all the feet of copper tracks of the circuit board itself, are you going to turn them around too so they are in the right direction as well!!! VOODOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
As I’ve stated on many occasions all wire is directional by virtue of the physical asymmetry placed on it when it is pulled through the final die. Thus ANY wire anywhere in the system is directional and best sound from a component will be achieved if whoever put the thing together was cognizant of wire directionality and ensured that all wiring was installed in the correct direction.
As for your example of the copper traces used in printed circuit boards I’ll take your word for it they are "wire" and not some sort of chemical etching or lamination that is not directional. But let’s say for the sake of argument that the internal wiring in a component is all hand wired point to point, without any circuit boards. Then yes, attention should be paid to directionality for all internal wiring - at least all the wire in the signal path. Make sense?
Cheers,
geoff kait @ machinadynamica.com
No goats no glory |
Let just say GK your bu****it is correct and that it is directional, do you honestly believe that you have the "Golden Ears" to be able to pick it up with just 1/2" of wire. Then sunshine, what about all the feet of copper tracks of the circuit board itself, are you going to turn them around too so they are in the right direction as well!!! VOODOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers George |
