Desire to try tubes
The travel and transportation cost, tack on a HEAFTY price, alone... 10-15 %.
^^^^^^^ lol hahah I would never ever cobnsider buying a amp/pre amp from <<asturalia>> unless I was 100% sure the unit was built likea tank = unlikely to break in my lifetime,,,and I had a tech LOCAL, who was willing to work on it at Supratek's funding./warrenty. Shipping a unit back to australia??? You gotta be joking... Which is why , whatever i buy, 2 priorities to purchase, built likea tank and built with quality components, , this way i havea basic structure to work all my upgrades into the systems lower end parts. |
The 805 is the more powerful of the two.
^^^^^ Even though you claim the <<805 is the MORE POWERFUL>>> yeah, like what 5 watts more?? always keep in mind, SET low watt amps have extreme limitations on what speakers we can employ. I am a SEAS/Scan speak kind of guy, SET's are eliminated. I've used a Jadis Orch Refer to drive the Thors and worked with just enough power. Seas/Scanspeaks are rated below 90db, so a tube integrated should be rated at least 30 rock solid watts for either speaker's basic requirements. |
Here is my 1st choice in tube line stage amps Never heard this cayin, but i know fora fact it is best bang in town. How/why i know this? Look at the scaffold build/uses high quality trans. but most of all, lets the buyer know the lab uses Takman resistors, which are the most musical resistor in current production, Although they employ the Rex/carbon, whereas I much prefer the Rey /Metal. The Rex’s are too smoooth for my taste,,but if you are a fan of jazz music, the Carbon Rex are right up your alley. another huge plus , well actually 2 big pluses with this unit, has dual separate channel trans, and employs a quad of 12AU&, which is my prefered line stage tube vs the 12AX7 which is too loud/forward. For under 1500, ain’t nothing can touch it. https://www.hifi-amplifiers.com/en/cayin-sc6ls-mk2-12au7-eh-tube-stereo-preamp-hifi-valve-preamplifi... |
Hi needfreestuff, No stupidity, no problem. Sometimes people confuse the 845 and the 805 tube amplifiers made by Line Magnetic.in SET topology an 845 tube will yield 20 to 30 watts per channel (Depending on the chosen operation point utilized). The 805 is capable of providing 45 to 50 watts per channel from a single tube. Mozartfan no doubt speaker choice is pertinent if using lower power SET amplifiers. The Hersey is so easily driven that one can achieve superb sound with a good quality px25 or 300b SET (6 to 10 watts per channel range) in a room with the OP’s stated dimensions. Charles |
The use of any SET requires careful speaker selection. This is because even a higher powered SET will have a fairly high output impedance. For more information take a look here: http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html But its a really good idea to audition an SET prior to purchase- the more power they make, the less bandwidth they have (such that they may not even be considered hifi). 7-8 watts is typically the limit where they can actually make 20Hz-20KHz. This is why lower powered SETs are always considered the better sounding amps. |
I will say that if the higher powered SET amplifiers are well designed and built they can sound fabulous. As others who have posted on this thread can attest to, 211,845,805, etc. can be used very successfully. I've have heard wonderfully emotional engaging sound from good quality 845 SET amplifiers. Implementation is key. Charles |
So here’s something to consider: It seems these days, the higher you go up the food chain, the closer SS and tubes seem to sound. SS amps tend to sound more airy and tubes sound more punchy. I have a Primaluna Evo 400 and have owned a Don Saks KT88 Kootenay before that. Although they sound different, they sound amazingly close to some good SS systems I’ve owned after several hours of listening. I feel like I went too far up the food chain too soon. I would have liked to try something from the past...like an old Conrad Johnson, Dynaco or Mac etc. But I started my tube journey as a 52 year old... Try to get something used and vintage on the cheap and have it serviced. You don’t need to make a perfect decision on your first try...just get something decent in the 15wpc-35wpc range and you should be fine. Your speakers are pretty efficient so you can really go to town and see what’s out there. |
"Try to get something used and vintage on the cheap and have it serviced. You don’t need to make a perfect decision on your first try...just get something decent in the 15wpc-35wpc range and you should be fine. Your speakers are pretty efficient so you can really go to town and see what’s out there." . That sums it up. . Try a THE FISHER, SCOTT or LAFAYETTE tube amp from 1960-1970. These are point-to-point soldered and whatever breaks can be replaced. That can not be said for amps with circuit boards. . The jump from Solid State to well-done vintage tube amps is VERY EXTREME quality gain. The improvements from one good to a very expensive tube amp less so. . Vintage tube amps have very good MM phono. So if you are not into Moving Coil, no phono-preamp is needed. (I use a Step-Up-Transformer) . I was very much into amp shopping and cables - until I found tube gear and now I do not care any more for "better sound". My system sounds so mellow, musical, transparent and tonally "just right" - with cheap copper cables - that I feel I have my priorities right. . Stop messing around with expensive cables - start tube rolling with (more or less) expensive tubes. |
I can't believe nobody has yet pointed you at the VTA website. Their SP14 preamp is the equal of any $5k preamp you'll find on Audiogon. You can build it as a kit for $1090, or you can get it fully assembled and tested for $1490. 90% of their buyers get the kit version. Excellent instructions and soldering for tube gear isn't all that hard to do. But even fully assembled, it's much less expensive than the my-poo-don't-stink brands you see around. It has a very Plain Jane look, so if you want it looking much nicer, Don Sachs takes their boards, builds them in a much more attractive form and sells them for about $2500. You have a lot of choices to get an exceptional tube preamp. Lastly VTA offers many tweaks to these things in terms of special pots, caps and remote control if you want it. All very reasonably priced. VTA also offers the Bob Latino line of power amp designs which are based upon the old Dynaco amps, but significantly upgraded. Their ST-120 amp is a Mac 275 killer. Again, all at very reasonable prices. For your $5k budget, you could build their top line PH16 phone preamp, the SP14 line stage preamp, and a pair of their 120 watt monoblock power amps. It's good to have choices. |
bilyeauxbrew, I tried the PS Audio GCD and S300 on extended review. I have to tell you that replacing the GCD with a tube preamp yielded a really great improvement and synergy with the S300 amplifier (which I rate highly). In my case, I replaced it with a Van Alstine Transcendence 8 preamp and I have no intention of ever replacing it. It's really superb. With the S300 you'll have remarkable amplification. |
I have a solid state rig and a tube rig. As Tim Paravicini has correctly said, you can achieve anything with either approach. With enough engineering and at a cost that may be a wee bit high for many. To the OP, a warning: tubes are a hole that one can fall far down into. To some, like me, it has been fun. But, to keep expenses down, I have fallen back to one tube rig (and another for the headphones). Tubes can eat your wallet, unless you educate yourself. If that idea intrigues you, jump in. Otherwise, toes only in the kiddie pool. A Decware amp is a decent place to start, although it is an odd beast: input tube, critical; power tubes, not so much at all, rectifier tube, big differences. This is not typical of tube amps. Have fun whatever you decide. And if it isn't fun, stop. |
You could find a near-mint McIntosh MC275 in that price range and you could also have some real fun with tube rolling; would match your Klipsch speakers beautifully (and many other relatively high efficiency - I have Mac with NOS tubes with Tannoy Gold Reference speakers = delicious). Kind of old school, but with Heresy/Crites that’s pretty much your zone, IMHO! By the way, if you can find some vintage Frazier speakers (Jack Frazier was a buddy of Paul Klipsch’s back in the day, and brilliant) - paired with tubes your jaw will drop to the floor... |
Oh and this also - incredible for a SET amp: https://tubedepot.com/products/elekit-tu-8600-300b-se-tube-amplifier-kit-limited-run?gclid=EAIaIQobC... And this guy will build if for you if you don’t have the inclination: https://www.etsy.com/listing/747186939/elekit-tu-8600-s-version-300b-power?ga_order=most_relevant&am... Add some solid NOS tubes and it punches WAY above it’s price! |
I suggest trying the Rogue series from $800 to $4,000 for easy use and it is not necessary to be an electrical engineer to use. These are integrated amps and I also like the ones that have a tube 'pre-amp' and non-tube full amp. These are the least fussy and give the richness of tubes without the many other hassels. I have a Peachtree X-1 hybred integrated amp that is my favorite at 440 watts per channel. I also have a nice Vincent 701 pre-amp for my turntable that features 1 12AU7 tube that really pumps up the vinyl that is further tubed by the 2 tubes in the amplifier 'pre-amp'. This amp is not longer available new. Atma-sphere is built in Minnesota and run by really great people to work with and the producer of one of the best series built in the U.S. A wide range of choices and they build to your specs and needs. These guys will even send you a unit to try out before you purchase. This is hard to beat. I think they know once you have heard their amps you will park it in their lot. If you talk with Ralph he will make it easy. See the opening video on their web site. My next amp will be from Atma-sphere where they will build a capable fully tubed amp with a tubed phono stage preamp built in for under $2,500. You should at least 'test drive' one of their products. Richard |
@skypunk You said what I have been saying about @millercarbon for a while. He is an opinionated shill and if you cross him you are a dope. He’s the dope. All he does is post. I don’t think he ever does anything else. Watch his post count, it goes up significantly every week. He posts just to be a dippy tool. I’ve got your back @skypunk. |
@rcronk I hear you on trying Atma-shere. I’ve been keeping an eye on his stuff for a while. Someday I’ll be able to try it. Got to get some speakers that match up with lower power amps first. I did the Rogue trip with their Stereo 100. It didn’t match up with my speakers very well and had terrible distortion. I tried to get relief from the dealer and Rogue with no success. Ended up trading it for a non-American brand that sounds great. Only had it for two months. |
If you still use the Heresies, and they are still 96db sensitive after your mods, and you want the “tube” sound, you need single ended triode amps. Buy used, or buy a kit, to save money (Bottlehead may be a good place for a kit) but nothing touches SETs for glorious sound. Speakers need to be efficient, the Heresies are, but nothing else can match that sound. I built my first one 20 years ago, it still works, and I have never looked back. |
I run my highly modded Klipschorns with Coincident Turbo 845 SET, Prima Luna Dialogue Four (modded with Takman carbon resistors, Miflex and Mundorf capacitors) and custom built 300b monoblocks. 845 tube way more power than you need for klipsch, still great immediacy, performers in room feeling. PrimaLuna use EL34 tube, lush, beautiful, my favorite push pull tube. 300B tube, maybe the most romantic tube. Can't go wrong with 845 or 300B SET amp or EL34 push pull, especially if you can run in triode mode. Stock Klipschs will work best with the more romantic tubes IMO. |
@bilyeauxbrew Many pair up low-watt romantic sounding tube amps/tubes with Klipsch Heresy speakers and enjoy it. A nice tube integrated is a good start. Kinda depends on what you want to change about the sound and presentation? |
I believe the first choice is are you one who prefers new gear or carefully selecting used gear with solid resale value? The idea of new gear sounds lovely but I get fueled by getting a deal along with amazing sound so I choose used. This has lead me to Audio Research. I started with tube amps(Classic 120s)and a SS preamp LS3B. This kept me happy for a couple years and then went to the LS26 preamp which is a hybrid tube preamp. It was a significant upgrade. A couple months later I had an opportunity on a nice deal for a REF 3 preamp and that made me a believer in the preamp is more important. That was an even more impressive leap in SQ. Around this same time another opportunity came along for a REF 150 2-channel amp. I went back and forth with my Classic 120s. At first I wasn't sure but after a couple weeks the REF 150 continued to shine and the aesthetics are much better, so it stays. ARC also has integrated pieces which I haven't ever heard. I like their gear, their sound and the resale value. If you buy smart you can pretty much get your money back if you want to try something else. I have been tempted to try something like the Raven as Chuck recommended or the Primaluna that Uncle Kev at Upscale Audio is always ranting about, but haven't yet. Bottom line I think you will love tubes, just be patient and enjoy the ride. |
I suggest used VAC amps, either old triode or recently deleted 200 phi. The latter was replaced at $14k with auto biasing circuitry, like Prima Luna uses but the used unit I've seen in the $4k range for similar sound and uses fewer, easy to replace tubes for 100 w./side https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=vac+phi+200 . Favorites of mine for older tube amps include McIntosh MC 225 and 240 but they keep rising in price. I haven't heard a 275 (all six versions of them) that I've liked. The modded MC30 monos have superb mids and can work well with your speakers (they put out 60 watts at 1% distortion, drove Martin Logan Monolith IIIs even). They use more tubes though. |
The recommendations for vintage gear are good ones. That’s what came to my mind first when I read your post. I’ve had several ‘58-‘61 Scott (& vintage Fisher and Dynaco, etc.) units, and they were all excellent! The best integrated (IMO) was the Scott 222C. Beautiful to look at, and amazing sound.. even when compared to very good modern components. Regrettably, I sold all of the integrated Scotts. Just too much stuff at the time. I kept a Scott LK-150 tube amp however, which I ended up giving to my son. I really missed it, so I bought another one, and I’m going to hold on to this one! When my son was choosing an amplifier, we brought that 1961 Scott (restored, but not modified) to an audio store to compare to a current, Stereophile class A rated tube amp that he was considering. The Scott not only held its own against the new amp, it sounded better in two key areas: midrange (like human voice and acoustic guitar) sounded more *real*, and the *air/atmosphere* of the recordings seemed more open and expansive. The new amp had a bit tighter bass response, and a bit more power (100wpc vs 58wpc), but it wasn’t as significant as the midrange improvement of the Scott. Point is this: with Heresies, a vintage amp may be a great fit, both visually and sonically. Plus, the vintage gear (properly restored) should prove reliable, easy to repair, and at least comparable to good current amps. Good luck, and as others have stated, enjoy. |
i have not had a raven but i have many arc amps older and newer, and also a primaluna i would say primaluna is very good, and an outstanding value for the money with many cool features but in terms of sound quality... arc is more pure sounding to my ears, even after signficant tube rolling with the primaluna - i believe it is because the better ARC amps use some solid state driver/cathode followers to enhance the linearity of the tube output at frequency extremes... so you get tube goodness on imaging but also solid state extension and clarity |
@jjss49 My Dynaco ST70 has been redesigned with an SS rectifier stage, huge storage cap located in the bottom of the case and voltage regulated operation, using the center taps on the transformer so that it is no longer an ultralinear design. The bass is phenomenal compared to the stock unit which had flabby bass. Used with Legacy Signature III speakers. |
Grover Huffman of GroverHuffman.com He is a cable manufacturer. I also have another Dynaco waiting for him to remodel. His Pharoah cables are SOTA quality at hugely lower prices. I also changed the RCAs and speaker terminals which were inexpensive from Bob's Audio http://www.tubes4hifi.com/ST70.htm The ST70 modified has punchy, deep bass driving 6-10" woofers. It can also drive my Focuses which have 6-12" woofers with a lower impedance of 2.8 ohms in the bass. For my main system, Grover took a chassis and transformers from an Altec 1569A and built 125w. monoblock, voltage regulated amps. After hours of use, you can put your hand around the transformers they run so cool. Unlike the EAR 890 I previously used which is Class A 70 watts and you could cook eggs on after 20 minutes. |
Audio Research VSI 60 Integrated Amp. This is the amp that "hooked" me on tubes. Since then I've moved to ARC Reference separates. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649657751-audio-research-vsi-60-integrated-amp/ |
If you can get someone who had done it to mentor you, consider building a tube amp from a kit such as Bottlehead. Use polypropylene instead of electrolytic capacitors in the power supply so you not only will never have to replace them in the future, they have less internal resistance for better slew rate, at least for push-pull. You will be glad you did it and with guidance it is easier than you think. |
Tried many things and I have the Heresy II. Loving the new PAS-M and Stereo 120 solid state Kenny Russell made for me and I like it better than gear costing several times the price. Kenny can even make you an ST70 tube amp for a great price. His work is world class. Amazing performance! https://funtasticvintronics.com/collections |
Hey bilyeauxbrew, I have tube and solid state offerings you may want to check out. I'd be glad to talk with you about what you want and what I can do for you. Visit me here https://funtasticvintronics.com/ You can message me through my site if you have questions, we can talk on the phone too if necessary. Thanks and hope to hear from you soon. |
What a fun place to be! I’ll bet many of those who’ve posted on this thread would love to be in your position, with so many great sounding, high value options out there. But the purpose of this post is to simply share my very positive experience with my purchase of a Supratek preamp from Australia. And if you go to the tab at the top of this forum and look at Most popular threads you’ll see the "preamp deal of the century" thread, which discusses the Supratek preamps. Don’t mean to sound like a broken record (though i suppose i do), but mine really opened my eyes. I’m thinking the Supratek, the Aric, the Atma-sphere, the Don Sachs, the Dehavilland (if you can find one), the Rogue... these are all solid recommendations that will (IMHO) delight you... I am in the "separates" camp. |
I just auditioned the $400. Reising model 100 amp that has gotten good reviews. Just not enough power even for 90 db speaker's. You need horns like a pair of Klipsch M600s. That said, I was so impressed with the sound and build quality, I ordered another well reviewed integrated tube amp on Amazon. The Muzishare x7 with four KT88s and 45 watts output. That should do it. There are several of these amp that are basically similar in configuration and have remotes. The X7, the Willsenton and one from a Canadian guy at Musical Paradise (55 watts). All in the $1300 range. In between are several amp at 40 watts that have four EL34 tubes and no remote for about $700. At the beginning of the virus house arrest, I swore that I wouldn't go tubes again but they keep dragging me back in. Nothing like it. Only down side is no sub out so you would have to wire any subs on the high output terminals. Lots of wires. |
Just bought a Muzishare X7 from Amazon. So far so good. Impressive quality, finish, and sound for $1300. 30 day return. Also in this price range of 45-55 watt amps from China are the Willsenton R8 and in Canada, Musical Paradise markets several amps designed there and made in China. good reviews on all of these products. Something reasonably priced if you want to get your feet wet with tubes. The Muzishare uses KT88 and 6550. The R8 allows Kt88 and EL34 and the Musical Paridiese uses 150 output tubes for more power at 55 watts per channel. All these have remotes and the Muzishare has a phono input which I don't think the R8 has. |
Check out the Decware CSP3. It is an excellent pre amp. It has gain adjustment for the input and output tubes allowing something Decware calls gain-riding. It changes the character (tubiness) without having to have a lot of tubes. I had one and really enjoyed it. It allowed me to find the type of tube sound I prefer. I does respond well to tube upgrades. If I remember they come with lifetime warranty. There is a waitlist that is usually a few months. I would order the base model, it has a 30 day return, if you really like it sell it and get a tricked out one. Used CSP3's re in high demand and reselling will be easy. Check out the Decware Forum Classified site https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?board=classifieds Decware has a cult following. |
