how can reviews be unbiased when the manufacturers are buying ads by the boatload! Wilson always put cheap parts in their products, and really did not sound all that musical until you move to the top of their line up...verity Sarastros or their big brother, Lowengren beat just about all with their musicality and unforced and un audiophile presentation imho...there are spectators and participants, and the verity will have participants, emotionally engaged in the music, rather than watching a soundstage and listening for details which you would never hear in a live performance anyway... |
Bhobba Lenehan,
Enough with your Lenehan praises and your Wilson and Magico bashing.
Take your speakers to a show and if it is true what you say than a bit of money spent on marketing will pay off for you and you can stop doing your marketing on these threads |
Eddiesudz,
Strange, I was under the impression that you were trying to prove something. My badÂ… |
Razmika - Relax, it's only a hobby! Didn't mean to push any buttons! I merely suggested a public shootout so folks could here differences for themselves. Nothing more! No one is talking about anyone having to justify their social status. Just a fun time to be had by all. I have nothing to "move on" from. I enjoy my system and all is good with my mental state (I hope!).
Happy Holidays to everyone! Back to more music! |
"I enjoy music through my car radio too. But I don't pretend that it is accurate or high end, or try to compare my car stereo to a high end home system, like you compare your Ohms to Magico, Evolution, or Wilson. "
I do like that you say what you think!
I'm glad your home system beats your car one. Surprisingly, so does mine! At least we have that in common. I will not be bringing my Alpine gear to any shootout. :-)
Enjoy!
|
"Mr. Mapman, methinks thou doth protesteth too much."
The grouping with car audio is what set me off. Really??? C'mon and get serious.
Peace on Earth! |
>>>That's a shootout I wish I could participate in! Very true...... fun! fun! fun!
Eddiesudz,
I am sure you would, but people who buys Ferrari (Or Magico) are not interested in such petty. They have better thing to do then trying to justify their social status. Move on, enjoy your speakers and live within your means, both financially and mentally (-; |
Mr. Mapman, methinks thou doth protesteth too much.
Enjoy your Ohms and enjoy the holidays.
Best regards. |
"Many people just love the Bose sound. And Ohms. And I don't doubt that many enjoy the music through these systems more than many audiophiles enjoy music through their expensive systems. I enjoy music through my car radio too. But I don't pretend that it is accurate or high end, or try to compare my car stereo to a high end home system, like you compare your Ohms to Magico, Evolution, or Wilson. Your overwhelming/advertising number of posts on A'gon regarding Ohm (reflected by clicking on 'mapman'), and here your attempt to compare yours Ohms with Magico, EA, and Wilson is, like Ohm speakers, hardly transparent. But as long as you enjoy them, then more power to you."
What a condescending load of crap!
At least I am consistent and say what I mean. No need to apologize for that. Sorry if find the idea that speakers costing way less that more people might actually be ab le to afford and not targeting the high end specifically might compete with the poster boy brands of high end audio.
Maybe they do, and maybe they do not. One looking to spend tens of thousands or more on speakers otherwise would have little to lose and much to gain by finding out for themselves though I would say.
And I am always glad to talk about any product that I am fond of for whatever reason with anyone who is interested. It's nice to have a place like Audiogon to discuss these things where at least the discussion and learning about good sound and audio needed to make informed buying decisions is free. |
"The league we are talking about is the accurate representation of the recorded event. "
Having attended many live events in many venues over the years, including a dozen or more this past year alone, I would say that OHMs are definitely in that league then IMHO and represent a tremendous value compared to Magico and perhaps also Wilson.
OHM sells direct only and does not advertise and market other than via word of mouth of owners. I suspect that to help keep overhead costs low and a focus on delivering the best sound possible for minimal cost enables what is delivered. OHM and Magico or Wilson cannot be compared in regards to how their products are marketed and sold. |
Razmika - Let me guess, you will be arriving at Weinhart place with your Subaru BRZ, so you can later go to the Ferrari LAOC user meeting and do a shootout with the new F12Berlinetta. Imagine, how fun would that be!!! That's a shootout I wish I could participate in! Very true...... fun! fun! fun! Syntax and do a shootout. I think this would be a great opportunity to see how the MicroOne's stack up against the Magico's. Could be fun!!!!
Well, maybe for you. But honestly, you missed a very important detail:
It is Business (profit).
Please don't disturb that. I'm not sure I follow. So we compare speakers, decide which one's we PERSONALLY like better, then it's about business? profit? Is that how most folks purchase their items after auditions? I usually go with some of the following factors.... can I afford it? How does it interact with the rest of my components? Etc? I normally don't worry about how much profit is in it for the company. Companies are in business to make a profit. It is our decision if we want to purchase what ever is being offered whether it be $2500.00 or $250,000.00. |
... and do a shootout. I think this would be a great opportunity to see how the MicroOne's stack up against the Magico's. Could be fun!!!! Well, maybe for you. But honestly, you missed a very important detail: It is Business (profit). Please don't disturb that. |
'Documentroom.... with all due respect there are folks here and on WBF that have stated that the Micro's sound better than many other brands, price no object.'
One thing I do feel compelled to point out about the Micro is the cost seems to going up and up. Out here in Australia its been reported to be heading up to $6-7k. Now I don't know how true it is, or if its world wide or just something the local distributor is doing, but I do know a guy that got one and he says nice speaker - at the original it was evidently talked about being - $1500.00 - drop dead, at the $2500.00 it ended up - great value but at the higher prices I have heard bandied about forget it - there are other speakers better.
Thanks
Bill |
Dont think Wilson or Magico are raking the dosh in - the price they charge is high because of the model they have chosen - namely spending a fortune on marketing so everyone knows about them. For example when new Magico speakers were released in Singapore they held a caviar and Champagne breakfast - and it was not cheap Champagne - it was Bollinger. Someone has to pay for it and guess who that is - you the consumer. Sure the owners are probably doing OK but the real cost of the speakers is in the marketing - not because inordinate profits are being made.
As a buyer of gear there is only one thing you can do - hear a wide variety of gear and make your mind up based not on what reviewers say or the glossy adds in high end magazines but on what you hear. Once you do that you will find over time your views probably will undergo a bit of a change. And if you already do that why worry about what Absolute Sound thinks of the Wilson or Magico - you will see it for what it is - simply an extension of the marketing machine/hype too many people are overly influenced by.
Thanks
Bill |
Eddiesudz,
Let me guess, you will be arriving at Weinhart place with your Subaru BRZ, so you can later go to the Ferrari LAOC user meeting and do a shootout with the new F12Berlinetta. Imagine, how fun would that be!!! |
Mapman,
The league we are talking about is the accurate representation of the recorded event. Live music. I'm sorry if/that the Magico dealer 'ridiculed' you, as you say. I wouldn't ridicule anyone's personal tastes. Many people just love the Bose sound. And Ohms. And I don't doubt that many enjoy the music through these systems more than many audiophiles enjoy music through their expensive systems. I enjoy music through my car radio too. But I don't pretend that it is accurate or high end, or try to compare my car stereo to a high end home system, like you compare your Ohms to Magico, Evolution, or Wilson. Your overwhelming/advertising number of posts on A'gon regarding Ohm (reflected by clicking on 'mapman'), and here your attempt to compare yours Ohms with Magico, EA, and Wilson is, like Ohm speakers, hardly transparent. But as long as you enjoy them, then more power to you. Take care. |
Documentroom.... with all due respect there are folks here and on WBF that have stated that the Micro's sound better than many other brands, price no object. Why is it hard to believe that someone could trade in speakers after listening to them side by side? Isn't that the best way to make a determination on what you enjoy versus having to go and audition them in showrooms or listening at Audio Shows? If the person liked what he liked then who are we to comment on his decision? It's his money and his speakers to do as he wishes.
3wayxover - I agree with your comment that it's all about taste. We should be able to listen to whatever floats our boat regardless of what other's opinions are.
I have a suggetion for anyone who lives in the LA/OC area.........
Mr. Weinhart, I know you don't have an event at your store with the LAOC until October, but maybe we could do an early special event. We can invite the LAOC and ask Robert Harley to host the event and I will bring over the Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne loudspeaker that I own and do a shootout. I think this would be a great opportunity to see how the MicroOne's stack up against the Magico's. Could be fun!!!! |
I just saw David Wilson at the bank. He was the guy in front of me with a wheel barrow full of cash, he didnÂ’t look too upset. |
Ya I call bs on Johnathan tinn and the whole deal with the selling the magico q 7 for evoulation speakers. I don't care which model it is evoulation the guy listen to in a side by side comparison. I've heard both speakers and and something is sketchy. The magico q7 was amazing. I think it's a set up to discredit magico. Bash me if ya want I'm sticking with wolf on this one. |
Mate if you or anyone believes what the Absoulute Sound writes is the be all and end all you need to get out and hear more gear.
IMHO neither the Magico nor the Wilsons are the best cost is not object stuff out there - nor are they by a long shot cost is no object. I know a number of speakers I have heard and speakers peoples whose ears I trust have heard such as Rockport, Lumen White, Tidal and a small speaker maker I know, Lenehan Audio, that easily best them. And the Magico most definitely is not a cost is no object design - for example it does not use Duelund Cast Capacitors which virtually everyone agrees are the best capacitors on the planet - but at about $1000.00 each are also the most uber expensive and a real cost is no object component. Speakers I know that are genuinely cost is no object use them - Magico doesn't.
And now for the clanger - at least one of those real cost is no object speakers are way cheaper than Wilsons and Magico. What you pay for with those speakers is the huge amount they spend on marketing so you know about them, can hear them at a high end salon, and read about them in magazines like Absolute Sound. Basically its just marketing hype - not reality.
Don't get caught up in in it - listen to gear and make up your own mind.
Thanks
Bill |
It is all about taste, but IMHO, I very much enjoyed listening to the Q7 and the Evolution (forget which model). The Q7 were very fast but still full sounding. The Evolution presented with lots of inner detail but were also very well rounded and not fatiguing. The Wilson X 2 sounded great, but not as good. They were very exciting to listen to, but I also found the mid and lower highs having a little too much bite and the mid bass a little too much. Nit picking, I would love a pair of X2, but sharing my experience. |
Taters, I too have now heard both Q5 and Q7s and don't get all the hoopla either. Not yet. Once for a brief few minutes I did hear the Q5 with tube amps but my dealer quickly had to lower the volume as the tubes started 'sparkly'. Q5 is more tougher load for tubes. Q7 on the other hand is probably should be much more comfortable. I will find out in couple of weeks when I might have an op to audition Q7s with tubes.
However, how can the best speakers in the world be not time, phase and/or pulse aligned and still sound realistic. At least I didn't read no mention of Q7s having any or all of the above three design characteristics in the review.
Evolution acoustics MM3 or MM7 on the other hand does look (by stepped array of speakers. I haven't auditioned yet) like having above design characteristics. Needless to say I prefer to have these characteristics in my speakers to be completely believable. So I may be biased. |
Sorry for the double post. Apparently, it can take in excess of 24 hours to get a response posted, |
4orreal: Review my post- I referenced the MM3s not MM7s...... |
Get on you're flame suits! I have heard Magico speakers 3 times this year and I wasn't Impressed. Sure they are built great but to my ear they are not very musical. Disclaimer: I only heard them with solid state electronics. Maybe that is the problem. |
Each tag must include both parts At $40K the MM3s are a flat steal- all MM3 owners should be arrested!! Fully agreed, same for Nordost Odin speaker cables-at $25K those are steal. Most owners(especialy those who bought with discount) should be arested and guillotined. End of story. My apologies for MM and Nordost company owners- because of buyers like this companies bankrupt. Shame on them. |
West,
You sound like the magico dealer after I auditioned them and I told hm what I had. Of course, he had never heard my system either and I did hear his 6 figure setup. He actually ridiculed me! Based on his opinion only. I think he said he had heard some OHMs years ago. And probably his desire to make me want the Magicos as well.
What is the league we are talking about exactly? |
4orreal: Re-read my post. The Evolution Acoustics model I referenced was the MM3. |
Hello, this is David Weinhart of Weinhart Design visit my showroom @ www.weinhartdesign.com
I am the original Magico dealer who sold the Q-7's speakers to the customer. I fully agree with Robert Harley that the Q7 is a landmark design and without peer and the finest speakers I've ever heard by a large margin.
The customer who bought the Q7 has known Jonathan Tinn, the owner of Evolution Acoustics, for a long time, and I believe there is a back story to this transaction.
However, out of respect to all parties, it is in no oneÂ’s best interest to discuss this further. I would, however, take everything you read here, and in other forums, with a grain of salt.
Good Listening, David Weinhart
|
12-13-12: Elberoth2
Don't trust opinion on forums.... every time I bought something based on online opinion and without listening in advance, it ended up being a big disappointment.
Quote of the year :)
Elberoth2 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Not my experience. One needs to know how to FILTER out all the garbage similar to all/PROFESSION opinions. Westborn, my brief experience with Ohm F's is similar to yours. My roommate after college had a pair in the house. |
Mapman - I'm glad you enjoy your Ohm's, that's all that matters..for your tastes. But they are not in the same ballpark, or even league, as the other speakers under discussion here, in MY opinion.
Enjoy the music. |
Fbhifi
Would you justify the MM7's price of $200k as a steal because they are four towers compared to the Q7? |
Everybody forgets the main reason to buy Magicos...they don't warp or get eaten by wood boring insects. I'm buying a pair to leave outside by the pool. All the pools for that matter. Even the Grotto. "Jeeves...bring the Bentley around...we're off to Goodwin's!" |
go to listen to a new pair of Magic S5 or a Gyia before buying the sasha... and yes, at the end it is your decision to stop spinning the hamster wheel! |
Stereotaipei: I've read your car analogy at least 5 times and cannot, for the life of me, understand your point.
I'm a longtime MM3 owner and recently bought Micro Ones for a 2nd system. The Micro Ones are remarkable in their ability to mimic the MM3 sound, albeit without the bass extension, last few percent of resolution and complete effortlessness of their big brothers.
You state that the delimitation cracks appeared after your shipment to the new owner and not during your ownership period. How is this now a manufacturing problem rather than one related to the packing, shipping, unpacking and set-up routine which we all know can be problematical?
As for bang for the buck- At $40K the MM3s are a flat steal- all MM3 owners should be arrested!! At $165K I doubt many would describe the Q7s as a steal. You can go ahead and justify the BIG $$$ you spent on the Q7s with your ridiculous attacks on the MM3s and then praise the swiss watch quality you perceive in your new Magicos. That is human nature and this is still a free country.
I truly hope you continue to love your Magicos, they're very nice speakers. |
Don't trust opinion on forums.... every time I bought something based on online opinion and without listening in advance, it ended up being a big disappointment. Quote of the year :) |
Looking at all this... it's a very costly endeavor. I'm saving up for some used Sashas.. but I've been in this hobby long enough to know that something else is around the corner and that will be proclaimed better and cooler and fancier and more sota.
It's a never ending hamster wheel... |
"everything Ohm has made since is boring and quite simply average "
Westborn, I think there are a lot of OHM owners, both new and old, that would disagree.
I have heard Magico minis set up very well. They sounded nice for what they did, but I would question the value. Its hard to question the value of the OHMs.
Have you heard the most recent OHMs, serie3 or current X000 line? If so, running on what system? They might sound as you describe if not set up properly with the right amp. OHMs over the years are reasonably affordable and many are run off systems that cannot make them sing. Setting up properly with the right amp is part of the secret sauce (as it is for most speakers).
Stereophile pointed out some flaws of the original 1980's vintage OHm 5s back in 1987 and said if those were corrected, you would really have something.
I can assure you the issues have been corrected since and they are now very competitive with the best most expensive systems I have heard (I have heard quite a few including Magico and others in recent years for reference).
SO I think your assessment of OHMs is not an accurate one. They may not be for everyone (what speaker is?)but labeling them mid-fi would definitely be a disservice, though the cost relative to Magico alone might lead one to think that way.
COme hear my F5 series 3 OHMs in my rig and I'll see if I can change your mind. |
Mike,
as I wrote, I have no problem with anybody preferring the Q7 or a MM7, or a big Wilson or Rockport, or a G1.... but what you describe is like the story of a guy entering a BMW car dealer, trying an Audi A1 diesel.... and liking it so much that he decides to sell his Ferrari for an Audi R8... how much would you value the opinion of such a guy? since you are in the car business you get what I mean ;-) |
Stereotaipei,
if you really need to verify what happened just ask the dealer who sold the Q7's to the guy. Alon can put you in touch with him.
i know where all the MM7's are and that the Q7 owner has not heard any of them yet. at some point he may travel to hear them.
it's not the end of the world. someone simply preferred one speaker to another. just like you.
time to listen to more music and kick back. |
Syntax,
Very thoughtful and truthful post.Much wisdom.
Regards |
"So now I am married to a very good system, that I learned love and live with. I think it is like this for most of us, at any level of budget for our system."
I believe you have the perfect approach: chose something you like, and stop looking around, just enjoy music for a few years. Personally, I kept the MM3 for 5 years without any change in my system before upgrading to Magico, and even stopped visiting audiophile websites. But when I decided it was time to change, I spent more than one year listening to a lot of systems before choosing the Q1 and Q7. Listen to your shortlisted speakers in different set ups, with different upstream components (e.g., I don't like Magico with Spectral (too cold), I love them with Vitus or Constellation). Don't trust opinion on forums.... every time I bought something based on online opinion and without listening in advance, it ended up being a big disappointment. |
"But to hear someone trade in a Q7 due to the sound of the MM Micro One just blew me away"
Seriously... how many people do you believe would buy a 100k+ speaker of brand X after comparing their current superspeaker with the 2k, made in China, entry model of brand X, without direct listening of speaker they want to buy? heloooo? People may be rich.. doesn't mean they are crazy...
Would you believe such a story if posted by owner and "head of sales" of brand X?
Yes... someone may have replaced a pair of Q7 by a MM7... but I doubt this is the full story... |
Edorr, you are exactly right. And our ears change, our listening psychology changes, etc. etc. How many times have we reached semi-nirvana, only to begin to find faults or realize that our expectations and listening experiences have somehow mutated.
Mapman, you simply can not be serious calling Ohms high end on the same level with Magico, Evolution Acoustics, or even the flawed but still enjoyable Wilsons. I owned and enjoyed the F's waaay back in the day, but everything Ohm has made since is boring and quite simply average mid-fi, regardless of so-called call 'refinements'. I think your comments and marketing here may be the only thing keeping Ohm going. Give it a rest - enough already. |
And if you need something else to whine about then I think your dog is also stupid. |
For me, speakers (or rather, an audio system) are like women; sometimes the stars align and you fall in love with them for myserious reasons. It happened to me a few times (first time it was a JBL monitor playing master tape, second time Avalon Radian HC with Spectral electronics, third time large Apogees).
I have been chasing the dragon ever since, and never quite got there with my own system, despite spending inordinate amounts of money on electronics. I think it has more to do with my state of mind than the actual system; theoretically what I have should be as good or better.
So now I am married to a very good system, that I learned love and live with. I think it is like this for most of us, at any level of budget for our system. |
All is great. Even more when it is expensive. You will hardly find an Audiophile who owned a 100k Speaker and replaced it with a 40K Speaker because it is better.
Take it the way it is, someone wants to spend a sum and he wants to have something. 'Then he finds his arguments for buying. But please stop to tell how good and great the new super expensive unit is.
I listened to endless ultra expensive Systems and most were cold, dead, boring and far away from the real thing. What they have is a top finish and they can play loud.
The Magico Q5 was also the super-duper-ultra-speaker (same with Wilsons or others, it is the rule of Marketing), all told me, they have to be used with Spectral, listened to them with Pre 30, mono 360, their most expensive gear, when I left the house I never thought about it again. I heard the same clinical Sound from 5k Systems, not so loud, but same detail. Music sounds definitely different.
I am also not such a big Fan from Wilson, in a way they aren't so different. wilson simply has a finish to die for, extremely good. Chassis, X-over? Nothing to write home about.
Easy goin' ..Christmas is coming and we need presents :-)
(For ourselves) |
So one guys likes a Q1 better than the MM3 and another guy likes the Micro One better than the Q7. I say call it a draw and trust your own ears. Thankfully, most of us will never have the face the agonizing dilemma of having to choose between the MM7 and Q7. |
My experience is different. I had a pair of Evolution acoustic MM3 for 5 years, and sold it in September. I have replaced it with two pairs of speakers: one pair of Q1 (already arrived before I sold the MM3) and one pair of Q7 (to arrive at completion of my dedicated room)
I had the Q1 and MM3 in the same (fully treated) room. Tested them both with Dartzeel 108 amp and Devialet (both are great amps). The Q1 crunched the MM3 (more transparent, better dynamic, tone quality, precision of imaging, absence of coloration), it was shocking, and I was very surprised as originally they were planned for a secondary system. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean the Evolution acoustics are bad speaker (I would chose them over most Wilson), but the Magico Q serie is in a different league. Four friends who were there during the comparison arrived at same conclusion. Only advantage of the MM3 was in bass extension... but this advantage was gone when we tried to connect also my 2 Fathom subs in parallel with the Q1: you end up with a cheaper solution than the MM3, with better WAF and better sound. Of course, the Q1 is not a show off speaker like the MM3, not a big monster 700lbs speaker to impress my non audiophile friends (they type of guys who ask me "how many WATTS?"... it is a speaker you buy for yourself, to enjoy music.
The Q7 is a completely different animal. I have heard several times most of super speakers on the market (Tidal T1, X2, XLF The Sonus Faber, Grand Utopia, big TAD...), the Q7 is in a league on its own. For the first time I listened to a speaker above 100k where I felt the price difference was justified. Given that the Q7 beats hand down the Q1, and that the Q1 is way better than the MM3, I have difficulties to believe somebody may prefer the EA Micro Ones (but who knows... all tastes are in nature.... some people even order their Ferrari with a pink interior): .
Last, build quality of Magico speakers is no comparison with my MM3:
- on MM3, woofer is screwed on the cabinet with MDF screws. I would expect this on a $500 speaker, not a 40k one.
- on MM3, I had to unscrew one woofer to be able to extract one cabinet screw which was stuck in the thread of one spike.... so I couldn't spike them: great quality control!
- on MM3, both speakers started to delaminate (in exactly the same position, next to plate of bass amplifier) when I shipped them to the new buyer. EA explained me it must be coming from the air freight transportation, and refused to admit it was a manufacturing or design problem.
So sorry guys.... there is no miracle... quality has a price: Magico speakers are expensive, but you get a piece of technology built like a Swiss clock, with real R&D behind, with both drivers and cabinet designed in house, and with the best Mundorf crossover components. I don't believe that the Magico team is stupid: if it was possible to reach the same sound quality by using cheap off the shelves components and MDF instead of 350kg of machined aluminium like most other brands, of course they would do it...
Now back to original post.... I listened to (and measured) the XLF in a custom designed auditorium. It was very disappointing, aggressive highs, without bass below 60Hz. Contact me if you want to see the measurement. I was so shocked that I went to listen to it in 2 other rooms, not much better (listen to a double bass, you may not recognize the instrument if you are used to go to concert...). Very strange - but that demonstrates that more expensive doesn't always mean better. Power of marketing and loyalty of customer base... |
Jonathan Tinn said the same thing Mike Lavinge said when I enquired which EA model they compared the Q7 to. I was schocked and surprised the same time. I thought it was the MM7. Although the MM7 and Q7 are full range, and close in price, I don't know if a Magico with driver configuration like the MM7 would be more appropriate in comparison, having 4 bass drivers, 2 midrange, and four mid-bass drivers just like the MM7's. I don't know if Magico is dreaming about such a speaker. But to hear someone trade in a Q7 due to the sound of the MM Micro One just blew me away. I also read on Mike Lavigne's system threads that A'gon user "Stereotaipei" sold his Evolution Acoustics MM3 to replace it with the Magico Q7. So I guess it can go both ways. |
