"Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here.
"I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are."
JTinn, just to set the record straight, I am not new here and I have posted many, many times. No one put me up to posting in this thread. It's your vitriol that motivated me to post. Anytime someone criticizes a product you sale, the daggers come out. It's unprofessional and often mean-spirited. Anyone can do a search for the many examples.
As someone who is constantly salesshacking here, you could take some lessons in civility from another dealer on the 'Gon, Duke, who is always a perfect gentleman, even when someone disagrees with him or criticizes a product he sells.
If I were the manufacturer of Dartzeel, I would have shut you down in this thread a long time ago. Your attack-dog tactics in this thread couldn't have been helpful to their products. |
Right on, Hooper!
I do hope other issues in this thread could also be settled offline.
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
gentlemen,
just reading this thread can make you physically and emotionally drained!!
i hope the manufacturers of these and other products are paying attention! talk about a negative first impression !! it's the products sales that may suffer through personalities overtaking facts...
may i suggest that if you need to get personal,take it off the original posting and go at it on your own e-mail!!
your all too saavy to exhibit yourselves like this.
azjake |
jakesommers@netscape.net I would have no reservations about buying any product that Jonathan represents.
Talk with any of Johnathan customers and you will hear nothing but praise about him and the way he takes care of his customers. I have little doubt that should a problem arise with anything Jonathans sells he is going to be in the customers corner. |
Thank you again, Mmalin.
At this point, could we all go back to the product itself?
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
Just FYI, I had a looong reply planned for Frank, but as the adults we are, we contacted each other offline and resolved ALL our differences in a most understanding and friendly manner. As far as both of us are concerned, this matter is settled. Period. It does not affect my friendship with JTinn in the least--I still love the guy like an older brother--but it's always better to have two friends than one. Frank and I both understand that to err is human, to forgive divine (Grandmaster Flash said that, right? :). Bickering like we've seen here is not only meaningless, it also hurts what matters most to us: this hobby and the friends we make from it. It also hurts a great company, DarTZeel, and an even greater man, its owner, Herve Deletraz. Let's try to put agendas and egos aside, and enjoy what we're all in this wacky pursuit for: the MUSIC and the ability to enjoy it in the luxury of our own homes at the highest possible fidelity. Can I get an amen? |
Apart from finding this very amusing reading I will have to agree with Frank's view of Jtinn not quite being forcoming with all the facts.
You have to be blind Freddy to not understand the real reason why the cost of these dartzeel amps have gone up so much is due to the fact there is a distributor in the middle, taking his margin, as well as the manufacturer and retailer. If Jtinn explained this I think most people would understand that this would have to raise the prices - I won't get into a debate whether the retail price is too high or not. seems excessive thou.
This raises another question.
How many dealers does jtinn have besides his own shop?.
Generally distributors do not also sell their products retail - if they do they are probably not real distributors and should be offering a substantial reduction on the retail price. If I was a retailer it would piss me off given the distributor has so much more margin to play with.
- Otherwise all the distributor is doing is gouging the customer, once for the distributor margin and once for the retail margin all paid to the same person.
You can't have it both ways.
I have the same problems in Australia with what I classify as bogus distributors who give unrealistic retail prices (to match a true distributor model) however they are the only retailer!. They think they are giving you a good deal by offereing 10% off. Bulldust - I call that false advertising and a rip off. |
Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here. They have one post in their record and that is here in this thread AND they happened to start on Audiogon the day they wrote the thread.
I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are.
Smells a little fishy doesn't it Frank? |
Frank Peraino: You say FACTS.
The FACTS are:
1. Jeff Fritz promised the break-in request would be respected. It was not.
2. Jeff Fritz promised to call me following break-in for instructions on how to remove DC compensation for increased sonic performance. He did not.
3. Marc Michelson promised the above requests would be honored. On these promises, I sent the amplifier out to them. Marc did not honor his commitments either.
4. You bully Hooper and he does not want to deal with the confrontation, so he takes the path of least resistance.
5. Frank, out of convenience for your stance, you totally ignore verication that the statements in the owner's manual were overrided by a decision by the manufacturer to amend a policy. There have been numerous reports by those who actually own and use the amplifier that atest to this.
6. You do indeed have an agenda when it comes to me. It is your obvious intention here and in other threads to demean me and the products I represent.
6. Mike Lavigne (properly spelled) was not happy with my "name calling" regarding Jeff and Marc. He stated so earlier in the thread. I acknowledged that early on as well when I stated:
"First let me say that even if I conveyed exactly how I felt in my post, it was probably in bad taste on my part and I regret stating it the way I did. Certainly I could have told the story and people would have been able to draw their own conclusions."
If you read Mike's other posts, he says the same exact things I say but does so in a more "politically correct way. Again, Frank, you are twisting statements around for your convenience.
Frank, your lack of credibility and your motivation is extremely well known. Maybe we should have MES, Hooper, Panorama, Bruce and others "testify" as to their experiences with you.
In closing, Mr. Peraino, may I suggest that you use your time in a more productive manner. I am sure Comerica Bank would prefer your time there being spent working on things they are paying you to do. |
Andy, I am sorry if this upsets you, but can you understand that since YOU posted the language below almost SIX months ago, and here in this post you call Jeff's review "utterly ridiculous" because the darTzeel can't drive Wilsons, that your original post NOW looks very sad:
"Posted by Quint ( A ) on March 22, 2005 at 11:40:40
In Reply to: Re: darTZeel posted by Jwm on March 22, 2005 at 05:17:20:
Actually, the amp can, and DOES, drive 4-ohm loads--and does so even better if you know the secret. When I mated the amp to my Kharma Midi Exquisites (a 4-ohm load with a few big dips), the results were lackluster, BUT I recently became aware of the fact that the amp has an internal switch that toggles between low-impedance and high-impedance operation. If I had known about the presence of that switch, maybe I'd still own the Kharmas.
At any rate, this talk that the amp can't drive hard loads is rubbish. It's not a muscle amp, but it's hardly a SET either. It can do whatever you need it to."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=68636&highlight=dartzeel&r=&session=
I HATE having to drag this out but every time someone claims that Jeff or Marc were neglient or that I am crazy for debating, their OWN words come back to haunt them. Darnit Andy, I like you and gave you the benefit of the doubt when you posted that the Darzeel could NOT drive the Wilsons but I didn't KNOW that you KNEW otherwise six months ago. WHY?
This thread HAS gotten sad so I am now DONE posting on this ludicrous thread. I am saddened that what I though was a good natured, honest debate in the beginning was otherwise. Anyone who has been following it, if they are not already nauseated or disgusted, will have already made up their minds what to believe.
JTinn, Mike, Andy, bash away. |
Hooper, I have one problem with your post. Try to let go of your allegiance to Tinn and take an unbiased look at my posts. NEVER have I said YOU caused it to get ugly. In fact I said JUST the opposite - that you and I were civil and had resolved the issue before Tinn got ugly.
Next, NEVER have I said anything ugly about DartZeel or you. You are implying here that I AM causing your remarks to be repeated over and over. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT? If Tinn would simply admit (like you did about your original post, and like Mike does he says he does NOT agree with Tinn's characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives) that he wrongly bashed and unprofessionally maligned a reviewer and his review THAT WAS NOT NEGATIVE, then this WHOLE thing would have ended. If Tinn keeps throwing out insults and refusing to be accountable for his written word and his slanderous comments and he keeps posting claiming that I HIJACKED this thread, then I have no choice but to defend myself by simply listing the FACTS AGAIN in hopes that objective minds will see that Jeff didn't do what he accuses him of, why Tinn bashed him and Soundstage and who OBVIOUSLY hijacked this thread.
It's funny how JTinn maligns me and my job by smugly asking don't I have anything better to do. Yet another double standard by Mr. Tinn!!! Then, how is it that Mike LaVigne isn't guilty of the same thing when posting his long posts? Mike, as a general manager of an Auto Dealership is even busier than I am. Also, why is Mike posting here at all? Because JTinn is his friend and he is trying to come to his aid - WELL THAT IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO WHEN MY COLLEAGUE WAS SO UNJUSTLY ACCUSED OF BEING A LIAR, BEING SLIMY AND BEING UNPROFESSIONAL! JTinn has made MANY defamatory and unsupported allegations and comments about Jeff in this thread. I have NOT done anything but point out Mr. Tinn's fallacious logic using his own words - something he obviously has no tolerance for as evidenced by his refusal to either admit (i) that he was wrong; or (ii) that you and Mike are also biased an non-credible for the same reasons he used to judge Marc and Jeff. He simply will not be accountable for those statements and his double standard attacks.
So, AGAIN, who could have NOT started this ugliness in the first place - Mr. Tinn. Similarly, who could have ended it with class and integrity by being a man and admitting his mistake? Tinn. Who continues to hurl insults and personal attacks instead of addressing his own words? Tinn.
Do the math Andrew. If you can be a man and admit a mistake, if Mike can admit that Tinn was wrong in his characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives - ask yourself who is the ONLY person who cannot do the same thing? Ask yourself who is REALLY causing this thing to drag on? Ask yourself who REALLY hijacked this thread! I think you know the answer as does anyone who objectively reads this thread.
So, if there are no more insults or attacks leveled by Tinn and his group, there will be no more responses.
PS - the reason that JTinn and Mike have stated that some of their posts have not been allowed should be illustrative. The reason all my posts are getting through is that I am sticking to a debate of the FACTS and the words used on the thread. If JTinn's post calling Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" made it through, can you IMAGINE how vituperative and venemous or unrelated to the issue at hand those posts must have been for Audiogon to prohibit them? |
After reading about the DarTZeel amp here and in various publications, I would certainly have considered purchasing it. Let’s face it, the buzz has been very good. But after reading this thread, I’d never consider buying the product.
Why? The U.S. distributor’s paranoid posts are just plain weird. His behavior can only be described as that of a schoolyard bully. Would I want to deal with a guy like that if I had problems with the amp?
Worst of all is the fact that the distributor was actually able to bully the manufacturer into selling his hapless U.S. customers units that had not even undergone the routine burn-in process described in the manual! Does that seem right to you?
As Jeff Fritz points out in his review, the DarTZeel is a fine amplifier. As Stereophile Magazine points out in their April 2004 Recommended Components issue, it’s a fine $12,000 amplifier. As a currency investor, I can tell you that the dollar to euro increase is approximately 1/32nd of the DarTZeel to DarTZeel increase. Knowing what I do now after reading this thread, would I buy a DarTZeel product from Jtinn? No. Would YOU? |
Frank:
Just to clarify: My "utterly ridiculous" comment was tied to a previous phrase in which I said that DartTZeel was starting to get some very good press in the States, the lukewarm "Soundstage" review excepted. And, while I may have started this whole thing by my comment about the review (which, as you know, I gentlemanly retracted), I claim no responsibilty for the ugly and nasty turn it has taken since. JTinn and others may respond to your post, and then you'll likely feel compelled to respond to his/theirs. At some point, someone has to let it go. It's getting increasingly bitter and vitriolic, and it's not helping anyone, especially the poor original poster who just wanted opinions about the preamp. And, as much as you wanted to summarize the chain of events, I really don't like the fact that my "mistake" is being brought up over and over. I already feel like enough of a jerk, and this is just making me feel worse. As I said, someone has to let this mess go eventually. It's already spun far enough out of control. Just my OPINION. |
Pointing out a paragraph in an owners manual as proof that there is no break in required, could be seen as a cover story by Jeff Fritz to justify his lack of effort in doing the review properly.
The truth will be hear when ... was the owners manual provided with the amp physically, or was it looked at after the review by download as Jtinn suggests? |
"IN ADDITION, ASK YOURSELF WHO HAS BEEN UNPROFESSIONAL, WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM INSULTING...."
JTinn be insulting...? Nah, couldn't be...
Just do a search...this thread ain't an isolated incident. |
Gentlemen
I don't know what to believe any more
Mike
I am still in the dark as to what "delicacy, liquidity and palpability" mean in describing this unit. |
Just when it appears Mr. Tinn that your posts cannot get any more illogical - you outdo yourself yet again.
First, lets look at the FACTS about this thread:
1. The ORIGINAL poster, Ubglub, asked a specific question about experiences with the DarZeel PREAMP (NOT the amplifier).
2. Hooper, NOT me, originally led the post astray by taking the opportunity, in response to a specific post about the Dart PREAMP, to bring up Jeff's review of the AMPLIFIER and called it "utterly ridiculous"! (why he felt he needed to do that when the question was about the PREamp - I could not figure out).
3. So, knowing Hooper is a nice guy, I simply asked Hooper why he claimed Jeff's review was "utterly ridiculous" and in his next post he claimed it was because, in his reasoning, Jeff was "irresponsible" by mismatching the Dart to the Wilsons claiming it wasn't powerful enough to drive the Wilsons.
4. I challenged Hooper's claim that the Dart was not powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. In FACT, JTinn himself later acknowledged the Dart WAS powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - thus giving credence to my challenge of Andy's reasoning in calling Jeff "irresponsible" and his review "utterly ridiculous." GO BACK AND READ MY AND HOOPERS DIALOGUE! AT THIS POINT THE INTERACTION WAS CIVIL, PLEASANT AND WE WERE HAVING NO PROBLEMS. REMEMBER, I DID NOT DO ANYTHING BUT CHALLENGE A CLAIM THAT MY FELLOW COLLEAGUE WAS "IRRESPONSIBLE" AND THAT HIS OPINION WAS "UTTERLY RIDICULOUS." HOOPER AND I WERE FINE AT THAT POINT AND DONE WITH THE INTERACTION AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.
5. Enter Mr. Tinn and his completely unprofessional post calling Jeff and Marc biased and Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" and "unprofessional" and then condemning Soundstage. SO EVERYONE, ASK YOURSELF THIS: IF HOOPER AND I WERE DONE AND EVERYTHING WAS CIVIL PRIOR TO THAT POINT, WHEN DID ALL THAT CHANGE AND WHO HIJACKED THE THREAD???
IN ADDITION, ASK YOURSELF WHO HAS BEEN UNPROFESSIONAL, WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM INSULTING THE DARTZEEL REVIEW IN SOUNDSTAGE AND WHO HAS DONE THE NAME CALLING?
I stuck to the facts of the thread, to Jtinn's actual language from the thread and to the Owner's Manual from his product to show where the real bias was and who had the real agenda. People responded to challenge Jtinn and his close friend Mike LaVigne even said he did NOT agree with JTinn's categorization of Jeff and Marc or their motives and that JTinn made "assinine assertions!" If his good friend even thought his bashing of Marc and Jeff was wrong and his assertions assinine, then either my challenge to Mr. Tinn's post was justifed or I guess then Mike TOO has an agenda to destroy Mr. Tinn.
However, here is Mr. Tinn claiming I hijacked the thread and that HE is the victim. LOL!! Ya gotta love Mr. Tinn's logic!
In closing, Mr. Tinn, may I suggest that if you are going to commit something to writing in a thread (and unjustifiably insult and defame a reveiwer and a magazine) or carry a product with an Owner's Manual that contradicts your claims, you may want to think twice before you post and know your product a little better since all I have done is point out what you and the Manual have said. Period! |
Oneobgyn:
To say that I "continually" make comments about how the DarTZeel requires adequate break-in before it's full potential is reached, you'd better go back through these threads, because I doubt if I made that comment even ONCE. I'm usually commenting on its sonic characteristics, not break-in requirements. Please don't put words in my mouth. A man of your obvious educational background should know better than that. |
OB, the manual was written for the original version of the amp and not for version 'B'. if you read my first post in this thread; it describes the reason for the required breakin. when the importer ordered a large amount of these amps at once; the manufacturer did not have the facility to burn them in in a timely way. So the importer accepted the responsibility to tell the customers about that. also, version 'B' has the auto DC compensation circut that is also not mentioned in the manual.
it is curious that Mr. Fritz's review doesn't say one tiny word about breakin, and then in an e-mail i asked him directly about break-in and in his response he ingnored my question. now Frank tells us it was broken in for 5 weeks.....and still no word about the DC compensation.
either he followed the importer's instructions fully or he did not. i guess each person will have to judge for themselves what happened.
i posted this same message last night as a response to Frank's post but it was blocked by the moderator. why? i don't know. there was nothing inflamitory about that post or any others of mine in this thread. |
Oneobgyn: I appreciate that you are somewhat in the middle of all this as you are friendly with all involved. I assure you that the promises I spoke of were made and that it is not true that Jeff used the amplifier for even close to 5 weeks. That is another fabrication on someone's part. There were a little over two weeks of possible use and the review was written.
I can also understand your apprehension, based on your experience, to believe that break-in on the darTZeel is real. Whether it is or not, if a reviewer agrees to the terms and does not comply, and writes a review, isn't that irresponsible when a manufacturer has so much at stake? Let's take the break-in out of the picture and just deal with the agreement that DC compensation was to be removed after a while of listening. Removal of DC compensation adds apporximately 10db of signal to noise ratio. Certainly a responsible reviewer and editor would make sure, prior to the publishing of a review, that they would have every opportunity to hear the amplifier at it's best... unless they had an agenda. Or maybe they was just plain irresponsible and / or negligent.
Steve, I assure you the break-in is absolutely real and verifiable and that everything I have said in this thread is completely true.
Isn't it funny how important it must be to Fmpnd to make me look bad that he would either go through the trouble of reading the owner's manual, which he would have had to download, or someone is feeding him this information and using him as a mouthpiece. Either way, it is extremely humorous.
It is a true shame that the thread was hi-jacked by someone who has a personal gripe with me and taking away from answering questions about a very special product. |
Sjmgr asks “Please let us know the approximate date for your upcoming review of darT pre-amp, if possible”
Assuming JTinn, darTZell and the audio gods all fall into place; I should get the pre-amp next month. 6moon protocol requires a review turnaround within 90 days. I suspect it will take almost all of the 90 days because there are a lot of interactions to explore. For example how does the preamp interface with their proprietary 50 ohm “Zeel” connection to the 108s. Also, what is the synergy (or lack of) with a standard amp (my VTL S400) using balanced connections? It also includes a phono-preamp which needs comparison to my Walker reverence. I would guess for a February print.
To Oneobgyn: I discussed the break-in controversy of the Soundstage review with Hervé, his response was the same as JTinn – standard is to break-in at the factory. The decision was made for this batch was to get them into the hands of the customer ASAP, and were shipped without the break-in. |
The products that Jtinn represents always seem to provoke some sort of contreversy, and usually some vitriol. I remember when no one could dare suggest that tenor amps were not the best ever created. Not that I have any money, but I would certainly think twice about buying a product from someone who refers to someone with a differin opinion as "slimy" or who disparage a publication becauese they expressed their honest opinion. And what was that dreadful opinion? Before buying this product you should be sure to listen to some other products in the same price range. Actually, I wish more reviewers would be such "hard hitting" jounalists. |
imisutar@sutarcom.ir: I understand why you feel the way you do, but there is a lot more to the story then FMPND leads everyone to believe. I responded yesterday and for some reason the response never made it to this thread.
If you read my earlier post, you will see that although I still feel the way I do, I do regret wording it the way I did. Please re-read this thread.
Fmpnd: Now regarding the darTZeel owner's manual and the 4 week break-in, the intention was to do just that. Once we were extremely back-ordered, it became obvious that the 4 week factory break-in could not be done and customers would not wait an extra month to recieve their amplifiers. I made everyone who purchased an amp aware of the it up front. No one had a problem with it.
As far as the pricing, I do not know where the 12k comes in, but darTZeel was looking for distribution and held the price as low as they could for as long as possible. Since you work in a bank, I am sure you are better informed than you lead on as to how much the dollar actually took a dive. I am sure if you do a little more detective work, you will find that the newer price corresponds directly with the decreased value of the dollar along with the added cost for the addition of the balanced connections and the DC compensation circuit.
You sure seem to be wasting a lot of your time researching all these things just to point out how evil I am. Don't you have anything better to do? If you continue to target me with these lies and exaggerations, I will certainly let the Audiogon community know the truth about you and your dealings with your so-called friends. If integrity is in question here, it works both ways.
I got a kick out of the previous post. You seemed so proud of yourself as if you had discovered the location of the Arc of the Covenant. |
What concerns me about this thread more than anything else is not the name calling between parties (which IMO is nothing other than childlike) but rather the comments made about Jeff Fritz and his not breaking in this unit before his review.
Fmfrnd (who is also a reviewer for Soundstage)has discussed with Jeff his use of the unit for 5 weeks in the course of his review. Surely that must be adequate break-in. Notwithstanding this however I continue to read comments from JTinn, Mike Lavigne and Hooper that this unit must be adequately broken in before its full potential is reached. Now having said this from the very DarTZeel manual as revealed by fmfrnd it comments that out of the box with cold start this unit is 90% of its potential and after 5 minutes of warm up has reached pretty much as good as it gets. Further the manual states that these units have 4 weeks of factory burn in before shipping.
So what are we supposed to believe? Why are you people claiming that further and more extensive burn-in is required?
When I hooked up My Lamm ML 2.1's straight out of the box the sound then IMO is as good then as it is now. Vladimir Lamm states that all units get 80 hours of burn in at the factory and each unit performs to its full potential after 50 minutes of warm up. I have found this to be true.
My question then to you three is what gives?--how can you have your cake and eat it too. Why would the manual give false information to burn-in?
I would submit to you and to all who read this thread that listening over 4 weeks of burn does absolutely nothing further for the betterment of the unit (if the manual is correct). Rather what is changing is that of psychacoustics. Ones frame of reference changes and that "flavor" that we have all discussed changes. I have asked many times with new gear that I buy (taught to me by mentor)--"do I hear something different or do I hear something better?"
To constantly read how layers of the onion are peeled off and ones frame of reference changes may be OK but I must say that I am a skeptic based on fmfrnds recent posts.
Now that doesn't mean that I am denying you 3 the pleasure that you claim this unit gives to your listening experience but I am wondering if this could be a case of the Emperor's new clothes? Sorry to harp on it JTinn and Mike but the revelation of the manual for me was quite disturbing |
Jafox, I HATE to see you wallow in a state of contentedness so I will take the Aesthetix and CAT stuff off yer hands!! Oh how you must be suffering with no axes to grind or up-graditis fever!! But hey! I am an altruistic guy so I will take yer stuff and suffer for you!! No one should have to be right to be "content" in this crazy hobby ;-)
Actually, I am in the same horrendous condition - content! But it sure feels good! |
I keep coming to this thread hoping to read some valuable information on this preamp but when it's all done, I think I will just remain content with the Aesthetix and CAT gear. I guess I'm just a little too sensitive to take on all that comes with being a D'Zeel owner.
As a prospective buyer, I would expect to hear a product's full potential in a broken-in model at a dealer or a friend's home. And then as an owner, it would not be an issue for me to wait 300-400 hours for the product to reach its full potential as I heard it before. With 20 hours a week of listening, this comes to 3-4 months. But as a reviewer, I would have no tolerance for this at all. Think of the logisitics if a reviewer had to do this for the amount of products constantly under review. It's simply not realistic to expect a reviewer to do this.
The same analogy holds for test driving Hondas; I want to do this with a car that has a little mileage on it so I can truly experience the car's full capability rather than have the dealer tell me I have to keep it under 50 mph until it has 2000 miles on it. And then as an owner, waiting to get to 2000 miles is fine as I already know what is to come.
First impression is key. If the manufacturer expects me, as either the reviewer or owner, to purchase that product or report in a most positive manner, it needs to provide me the opportunity right away to experience that product's full potential....otherwise I am very likely to go elsewhere. And this is the whole idea of "test drive" cars.
If there was ever a lesson learned here, this amplifier should never have gone out until it already had the specified burn-in time. There would have been no doubt that any reported findings were due to other issues and not that the amp was fresh out of the box.
John |
Jtinn: you say to fmpnd “You are making this personal and seem to take the opportunity to do so in every post you can. I do not think that is very professional.” But yet earlier in this thread you said, “Jeff is as slimy as I have ever read. Totally unprofessional and an out and out liar.” I guess in your world that’s NOT personal?
Jtinn writes: “I don't know Frank, but it comes across to me as you are just trying way too hard to discredit me.”
Nobody has done a better job of discrediting you than you have Jtinn. Thank you fmpnd for pointing out the facts of the situation and to Nealhood for saying what needed to be said. |
Thank you, Mmalin.
Please let us know the approximate date for your upcoming review of darT pre-amp, if possible.
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
By the way guys...I posted a related question on the Review of Dartzeel amp thread...not here as it pertains to something else...a question a I am grappling with. If you could find the time to take a look and provide some advice I would most appreciate it. Consider it as help to a fellow music lover/semi-novice audiophile (I just kinda know what I like when I hear it: no real detailed knowledge of theory nor why things are the case really). |
Thanks Mmalim for getting the thread back to where it belongs. Enough already! |
This is what I love about this hobby--one man's passion is another man's poison.
I will say it again--pick your flavor because in the end it comes down to my mantra--it is all about my ears and my wallet. |
Back to the original points…
I wrote the 6moons review, and can add a few points to the discussion. First the 108 amp has more than enough power to drive the X-2’s to ear splitting levels without clipping. Led Zep at 90db is no problem in a medium sized room. The pre-clipping lights have never flashed, and I love classic rock at pretty loud levels.
As to the pre-amp, I spent the day last week with Herve Deletraz and the new pre-amp. Although I heard the pre-amp in an unfamiliar system, the sound was absolutely amazing. Circuitry is based on the same design as the amp, there is an obvious synergy. Some design elements appear to be revolutionary. This could be a world beater. I had Levinson 32 ref, Audio research, Placette, and currently VTL 7.5 so I have a pretty good frame of reference. But I will have to wait to get it to my system for the formal review. |
|
JUST to clarify and for all you Paul Harvey fans out there - HERE is the REST of the story:
The following quotes are taken DIRECTLY from the DartZeel amplifier's Owner's Manual:
Page 8 of the NHB-108's Owner's Manual states:
"The darTZeel NHB-108 model one has been designed to deliver more than 90% of its magical sound at cold start. After 5 minutes you are very close to the best the machine can offer. The increasing quality you may hear as time goes by will be mostly the reflection of your growing musical pleasure."
Page 16 of the NHB-108's Owner's Manual states:
"...all machines are broken in for more than 4 weeks in continuous use..."
Soundstage would rather rely on the manufacturer's information as opposed to an owner, dealer, or distributor so if the manufacturer made the forgoing statements DIRECTLY in the Owner's Manual AND IF THEY BURNED IN THE UNIT FOR MORE THAN FOUR WEEKS ALREADY, why should Jeff doubt it.
I have also been informed that, notwithstanding the Owner's Manual's advice, Jeff played the amp continuously for FIVE weeks before writing his review.
Next, DID ANYONE ON THIS POST READ JEFF'S REVIEW? It never bashed the sound of the ampliifer at all!!! The review was positive on every sonic count and only calls the amp's value against its competition into question. In the reviewer's opinion it was simply overpriced! WHY? Because before JTinn became involved with DartZeel, that same amp sold for $12,000. Afterwards it was $18,000!!!!!! A 50% increase!! The Euro is only about 23% higher than the dollar. Also, have you seen ANY other audio product made in Europe increase in price that much due to the alleged Euro disparity during that same time period? I haven't but then again I may not know of all such products.
Gentleman, Jeff Fritz is an honest man who simply called it as he heard it. For that HE was crucified and defamed on this thread. Jeff is a big boy and can take care of himself, but why should such mis-information be allowed to go uncorrected on this forum?
It kills me how everyone seems to complain that too many reviews are too nice and not "honest enough." Jeff then: (1) is led to believe by the manufacturer and Owner's Manual that the amp is at 90% cold out of the box and close to the best the amp has within FIVE minutes (as well as it being broken in by DartZeel for FOUR continuous weeks); (2) plays the amp continuously for FIVE weeks NOT FIVE minutes as suggested by DARTZEEL (now totalling NINE weeks of burn-in); (3) praises the sonics but; (4) calls it like he hears it when the recently raised $18,000 price is considered particularly against competition in that price range. And what happens? You saw for yourselves.
NOW ask yourself. WHO has no credibility and WHO is biased?
Funny thing, I just wrote a not so positive review for Soundstage for the ELP Laser Turntable. The classy people at ELP simply agreed to disagree with me and filed a classy response in Soundstage.
NOW you know the REST OF THE STORY!! |
Fmpnd: After reading your closing statement, I mean post, I have to say I thought I was the devil and should be tarred and feathered. You obviously, being a lawyer, are extremely thorough and convincing, although in this case, conveniently misleading.
Certainly, after I came to my senses from reading your diatribe, I realized that my thoughts and statements were twisted around quite a bit by you. I stated my thoughts about Marc and Jeff having "strong ties" as pertinent ONLY when I considered whether or not to give the amplifier to them for review. Once I made the mistake to do so, it only became an issue that they did not keep their word to do as they promised in regard to properly breaking in the amplifier and removing DC compensation. Nothing more.
You are making this personal and seem to take the opportunity to do so in every post you can. I do not think that is very professional. Especially as a reviewer who works for the magazine in question.
Your statement:
"It is my opinion that this forum has been polluted by unscrupulous dealers/distributors who muddy the water of a forum designed to be a friendly sharing of ideas and civil debate to one of ulterior motives and libelous vitriol for their own profit."
I don't know Frank, but it comes across to me as you are just trying way too hard to discredit me and those who share my opinions no matter how honestly I, or they, speak, whether industry affiliated or not. |
Neilhood: You and I do not know each other and have never had any dealings with each other. You came at me hard, which is your preference to do. The "mother" statment may have been a bit over the top. My mother died of Pancreatic cancer not too long ago and I am sure your intentions may have been different, but that was extremely rude.
It is exactly for the reason you stated that I have a BIG problem with the review. You said:
"There was nothing wrong with the Soundstage review. I just read it and it seemed extremely honest and to the point. Yes, there is an opinion in the review but, that's what this hobbly thrives on. 90% of the posts around here are opinions. Frankly, that particular Soundstage review is one that I would like to seem more of instead of the regular "sugar coated" reviews that we see in some of the other media pubs."
Looks can be decieving. Soundstage had a responsibility to deal with the review in a professional manner which I assure you was disregarded. They gave me their word and did not do as they promised. Is that breach? Was it an out and out lie? Maybe just completely irresponsible on their part. Is that fair to the manufacturer who worked hard to produce such a special product? Certainly if they had done as requested and come to the same conclusion I would have nothing to say. I can tell you that each and every owner of the darTZeel amp reports REAL and long break-in is required and that the changes are dramatic. If you do not believe in break-in, I would offer a challenge to you. Buy a darTZeel amplifier. If it does not change as I state and does not sound as good as those who have heard it aver, return it for a full refund.
Also, "well written" and honest may be two different things. |
Frank, while i may agree with jtinn regarding the review methodology, i don't agree in any way with jtinn's characterization of Marc and Jeff or his opinion of their motivations....and have told him that is how i feel. i think you know that i am not one to blindly follow anyone or defend a friend's assinine assertions. you should know that from your personal history with me.
i think you are waay off base in assuming that likeing the same gear means that myself or Hooper approve of jtinn's posts. jtinn speaks for jtinn. i am loyal to the person, but not to all the acts. jtinn doesn't always agree with me either.
this whole thing is getting just too weird for me.
this is suppose to be about music. |
Andy, NONE of this has been to disparage you. You, like me, just want to listen to good music. As I said, I did NOT say you had no credibility, just that if we use JTinn's logic, you and Mike would not be credible either due to your "strong ties." That is why I said what I said -- that using JTinn's logic EVERY reviewer would be biased.
Yes, it appears you were mistaken about the Dart being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons (assuming JTinn is correct) and that would have been the end of the discussion as THAT, if you go back and read my original posts, was ALL you and I were discussing. As far as making mistakes is concerned, TRUST me, I have made a ton of them, but I try to learn from them and not make them again if at all possible. Who cares if you were mistaken, you have the integrity to admit it, so, no big deal, we just go on. However, I never meant to crucify you nor do I think, re-reading the posts, you were crucified. You came across as a gentleman and I hope I did as well. |
Mike, I did not mean YOU did the lambasting. Basically, since you agree with Jtinn and are acting as his more civilized mouthpiece (Jtinn stated above that you said what he meant in a nicer way), I lumped the two of you together. |
Frank:
You're right that there could be a double standard here. Hey, I really don't care. I just want to enjoy my music, and this whole blowup is seriously getting in the way. If you and others don't want to give me or Mike credibility because we're close friends with Jonathan, that's fine. Doesn't bother me one whit. No one else cares what I say, so why should anyone here? :) But I do essentially agree with your point. If the reviewers are to be criticized for their ties to Boulder and Lamm, then, yes, maybe Mike's and my motivations should be called into question because of our ties to Jonathan. I can assure you that my opinions of my gear are NOT biased by my connection to JT. You and others may think so, and you're entitled to your opinion. But I've listened to a lot of gear over the years, and this is the best I've personally heard. THAT'S MY OPINION, and people can either accept or reject it as they see fit. Doesn't bother me in the least, just as it shouldn't bother you if people disagree with your thoughts on Kharma or Lamm. As for my comments on Fritz's review, yes, it does look like I was wrong, but at the time, and based on my audition, I seriously thought the Wilson was too tough a load for the DarTZeel. So sue me; I was in error. You're a good guy, and you're in the game for the right reasons, but have you never been wrong about an audio component? Everyone makes mistakes, but I was crucified for mine. I guess that kind of stuff happens when you make yourself a target, though, doesn't it? :) |
Jack, the difference between us is that my 'R' likely should be an 'A'; and your 'A' should be an 'M'.
:^)
Frank, the reason i deleted that 'early Sunday morning' post was after hitting 'submit' i thought that maybe if i just didn't go any further we could get back to the title subject of this thread. fat chance.
...and where did i lambast anyone?
OB, call me and i'd be glad to expand. but not here. |
Dlwask,
Thanks for the info. This has been my exact point throughout this thread. WHY should you have to be afraid of being bashed in this forum for stating your "opinion?"
You shared some insight and info and we are richer for it. MY problem is that dealers and distributors who have profit motives and financial gain at stake are allowed to make the type of claims Jtinn does (e.g, that Jeff and Marc are biased due to their "strong ties" resulting from ownership) while expecting us to then turn around and give credence to his, Mike's and Andy's opinions who have even stronger ties.
As I said above, you cannot have it both ways - either Mr. Tinn admits he unfairly accused Jeff and Marc of being biased or lacking credibility, or you include Jtinn, Hooper and Mike in that same group due to their "strong ties!"
This is simply about consistency and double standards. |
actually Fmpnd major automobile oems send cars out all the time to car magazines with a list of qualifiers (and most of the time instructions) on certain aspects of the car that can not be commented in the review due to various reasons. to be fair though, its usually pre-production and early production units. after production its fair game, and comes down to the owners manual.
its also true some oems (mostly exotics) refuse to send their product for review to some magazines due to biases of the magazines. in this case magazines rely on the good graces of those private owners.
no bashing please. i am just trying to give you guys insight into the car biz, just as i get from you on the high end biz. |
nealhood, your comparison of dartzeel amps to honda automobiles has no basis here and is essentially irrelevant. you reference the physical state of a car to the sound performance of the amp!?
as mike states above, its a very well known fact that a car performs much better after being run in. i would expect the same with a brand new amp.
i'm sure there was nothing physically wrong with the amp, whats under question here is the performance of the amp, which is spectacular. surely there can be no doubts about the amps build quality and craftsmanship which are simply stunning. |
Since anyone who disagrees with Mr. Tinn or Mr. Lavigne seems to get lambasted, lets look at JUST WHY NOBODY should give any credibility to anything Mike Lavigne or Hooper says on this thread (Mike and Andy, don't get mad yet, it's nothing about you, it's about the problematic logic of Mr. Tinn so read on).
In Mr. Tinn's vitriolic post above he states and I quote:
"When Marc begged for Soundstage to review the amplifier, I told him I was not interested because of his strong ties to LAMM and Jeff's to Boulder. I should have followed my instincts. Jeff is as slimy as I have ever read."
So from this quote we see that Jtinn's position is that Marc's ownership of Lamm gear and Jeff's ownership of Boulder gear constitute "strong ties" to those respective companies sufficient to render their credibility unfit to give an unbiased opinion on DartZeel amps. In addition, it should be noted that Marc, while knowing Vladimir Lamm and Jeff while knowing the people at Boulder are not "good friends" with them - just owners and admirers of their gear.
However, in the case of Mr. LaVigne and Hooper (Andy) Jtinn as well as Mike and Andy have admitted publicly in this forum and AA that they are "good friends" with Jonathan Tinn. To those close friendships we must add the FACT that Andy and Mike own Dartzeel amps and preamps (sold by Jtinn), Von Schweikert VR-9s (sold by Jtinn) and EMM Labs gear (sold to them by Jtinn).
Therefore, based on Jtinn's OWN logic on why we should NOT trust the opinions Marc or Jeff due to their "strong ties" (when Marc's and Jeff's are based on ownership alone and not close friendships), we CERTAINLY THEN CANNOT trust the opinions of Hooper or Mike since they not only OWN all Jtinn gear, but they are close friends as well. Now understand, I DID NOT SAY THIS, Jtinn did in his post when he implied that Marc and Jeff could NOT be trusted nor could they be unbiased due to these "strong ties!"
Most of us can see how ludicrous Jtinn's logic is. MOST reviewers own some sort of reference system. Following Jtinn's logic, they are all untrustworthy because they have strong ties due to their ownership of their particular gear. Yet Mr. Tinn routinely engages the assistance of Hooper and Mike (and any one who thinks he doesn't, doesn't know JTinn as he did the same with me many years ago) who clearly have "strong ties" to Jtinn's products.
So, either Hooper and Mike are totally non-credible due to their "strong ties" or Marc and Jeff have been unjustifiably accused by Jtinn - you can't have it both ways.
Next, Jtinn aims his attack at the Soundstage magazine when he states to me:
"As a reviewer, shouldn't you write for something other than that rag? I do not know why you would pick such a magazine. You should be able to write for almost anyone...Soundstage? Please."
Then why submit an amp for review to such a bad mag to such biased reviewers with "strong ties" to Lamm and Boulder - particularly one that isn't broken in when that break-in is apparently so crucial? Who had ultimate control over THIS situation?
First, I have no argument with a claim that some gear needs adequate break-in. The issue is this: If I AM THE MANUFACTUER OR THE DISTRIBUTOR WHO HAS AN AMP FOR WHICH BREAK-IN IS SO CRUCIAL, why in God's name would you let an amp go without being broken in - much less to a slimy bunch like the biased goons at Soundstage?
I am going to admit that my following statements about Mr. Fremer ARE hearsay from a third party who claims to know this and I will invite Mr. Fremer to correct me if I am wrong. Mr. Fremer, like many other reviewers, is a busy man. I understand that Mr. Fremer will NOT break-in a product due to those time constraints. So it is with many reviewers, they do not have the time nor the desire to wait hundreds of hours for a product to burn in. This is common knowledge. I am not saying that a reviewer may not agree to do this for the company, but, if Mr. Tinn had the reservations he said he did about the reviewer and the mag, then WHO was the negligent one? Who had control over the issue of giving an unbroken-in amp to a "biased" reviewer with "strong ties" to Boulder who wrote for a crappy mag?
I can only answer for myself and say if I had the reservations Jtinn did and thought the reviewer was biased and the mag was crappy, I know what I'd have done.
Next, MY original issue was with Hooper's categorization of Jeff's review as "utterly ridiculous" because of Hooper's reasoning that the DartZeel was a mistmatch for the Wilsons. At that point Hooper (Andy) and I [who are buddies] were having a civil debate over the isue with no vitriol or venom. I took issue with basing the "utterly ridiculous" opinion on a 100 watt amp allegedly not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons when both the 18 watt and 110 watt Lamms can. My point being that Jeff was not negligent in assuming a 100 watt, $18,000, SS amp could drive them.
As Jtinn's post pointed out, my point was correct and the DartZeel is powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. So when Andy's categorization of Jeff's review for the reason given was proven to be wrong, the new libelous onslaught began.
Then, Mike had to come in and try to clean up JTinn's mess with a more civil explanation. But even then, did anyone notice the suspicuous disappearance of one of Mike's later posts? Mike had graciously posted a comment that, in his opinion, Jeff's review was not "wrong" it was incomplete. But that post disappeared. I will leave the readers to decide as to whether or why Mike would delete a kind and ameliorative post (or was he asked to delete it? - regardless of any subsequent posts, ask yourself who had the most to gain from deleting a post that said Jeff's review was not "wrong?).
Mike, I agree with you that cars and audio gear need break-in and if you do not follow instructions, it is your fault if something goes wrong. But Mike, your analogy misses the mark. Your analogy is aimed to OWNERS or purchasers. I would bet that if Honda was sending a car to Road and Track or Motor Trend and, if that car was like the DartZeel amp and the car would NOT perfom well unless it had 300 hours on it, you can BET Honda would put those 300 hours on it to avoid a bad review.
In closing I will stick to my original point, if I like milk chocolate and you like dark, why is one wrong and one right and why do "owners" of gear get their undies in such a bunch if someone else doesn't agree with them? When I have people over for an audio club day, if I offer them Pespi or Coke and they choose Coke when I like Pepsi, would I ever think of getting defensive over his preference? Then why is it when the Coke drinker goes into the audio room that I should be any different? As a reviewer, audiophile and music lover I am loyal to good sound and good music regardless of what gear gets me to the promised land. As you have noticed, not once have I disparaged DartZeel or any thing the posters here prefer over what I have. It simply doesn't matter as they have the gear they want and can afford as do I. My concern was a colleague was being disparaged over a review said to be "utterly ridiculous" for a reason that turned out to be fallacious (e.g, the Dart not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - a statement confirmed to be wrong by Jtinn himself - of course Mr. Tinn had to do that so he won't lose an entire prosective DartZeel customer base who own Wilsons or other speakers allegedly hard to drive)).
It is my opinion that this forum has been polluted by unscrupulous dealers/distributors who muddy the water of a forum designed to be a friendly sharing of ideas and civil debate to one of ulterior motives and libelous vitriol for their own profit.
I will wait for the further onslaught. |
Mike:
I certainly hope that nobody took your "Esoteric 5-box ----Meitner shootout-----tomorrow" as the last word, although there are those out there that take the word of a man with the funny little (R) next to it as just that, regardless if it was valid or not. It is the reviewers responsibility to provide a valid report, is it not? Isn't that in question here?
Fortunately, there are folks out there that realize that DarTZeel AND Esoteric require a long break in period and that for suitable break in period AND proper isolation (including several different coupling/decoupling attempts) are required to provide a VALID comparison or report of any kind.
And, I haven't even addressed external damping with pieces like the HRS plates or cabling (and so on) to attempt system integration.
In this case, the DC compensation switch was also ignored, which anyone with first hand experience on the earlier DarTZeel can tell you, makes a dramatic difference.
Responsible journalism. It isn't a one way street determined by what you personally own.
Best,
Jack |
Jack,
regarding how my post on the Esoteric/emmlabs comparison compares to Jeff's review;
1. my post was not a formal review, it was a one-day shootout...no more, no less.
2. full disclosure. i was very forthcoming about exactly the circumstances of what i did, down to the shelves and interconnects used.....with a picture of the setup.
3. breakin. at least i addressed the issue and said what i knew.
4. i mentioned that the gear was set up according to what the importer had told my friend. i certainly did not ignore any specific insrtuctions that were given me.
i gave any reader enough info to judge for themselves exactly whether my conclusions were valid. also, i had the comments of two other listeners included.
i did not represent my 'shootout' as the last word and even questioned whether there might be something wrong with the Esoteric gear. |
|
i guess we really do want to debate review methodology. if you want my further take on the dart pre you'll find it on my system thread when i have the time.
regarding what Honda might do. Honda spends around 2 Billion dollars and at least 4 years to develop a new model. the market expectation is likely up to 1 to 3 million units worldwide for the model run. and......they still put break-in oil in the crankcase and advise that the best gas milage won't occur until at least 5000 to 10,000 miles. it is important to be easy on the brakes for the first few 100 miles. on certain models, the RPM's need to be restricted over the first 500 miles. the seats and suspension do slightly 'breakin' over the first 500 to 1000 miles. i drive 3 to 4 new demos a year for 25 years so i'm quite expert on breakin for Hondas. so for a company that is race engineering based; clearly breakin is reality.
many times customers complain about their car because THEY DIDN'T READ THE OWNERS MANUAL OR PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE SALESPERSON TOLD THEM ABOUT BREAKIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in fact; anyone can get on the internet and post a complaint about their Honda whether they followed initial instructions or not. when a complaint finally gets to me i ask why they didn't just call us first so WE COULD HAVE EXPLAINED IT TO THEM......AGAIN.
sound familiar?
Jeff's review was not wrong, just like my customers are not wrong. but their perspective is incomplete without following all the instructions so the product will perform as it should.
next case.......
|
OK Mike you got me--I am totally in the dark when you say the DarT pre has "liquidity, delicacy and palpability"
I am a simple guy and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please explain what you mean. |
