DAC Shootout Starts This Weekend

Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade.  The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC.  They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.  

After a variety of issues, (poor contact on an SPDIF cable, failure of a pair of my RCAs and me forgetting to switch Ethernet cable to the 2Go/2Yu) we were finally ready to listen.  Good news is the DAC had plenty of time to warm up.  

At this price point, I expect minimal compromise and the Vu Jade delivered.  There is still a little bit of a trade in terms of detail vs. soundstage and imaging but that tradeoff is not unreasonable or out of line with similarly priced DACs.  It is close to as detailed as the Bricasti M1 SE if not as detailed.  It's image is as large.  Depth is excellent and the image is incredibly stable. Not quite as detailed and controlled as the Rockna or Weiss but this was not surprising.  

What it delivers is PRaT.  Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun.  It is not bloated.  It is not lean.  Nor is it overly warm.  I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled.  It made Anette Askvik's voice sounded incredible during Liberty.  There was no sibilance in Sting's voice or during Liberty.  It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent. 

However, it sounded big and slightly colored to me on strings. The intimacy of the Berg piece was lost slightly though there was no smearing or massing of strings.  If I was a Classical junkie, I might look for slightly brighter speakers (Vivid Giyas, Avantgardes???) and/or a slightly brighter amp to pair with this DAC.  The AVM is known for being neutral to warm.
This DAC is quite at home in its price and delivers a very analog sound.  

Note: for this test we used an Audioquest Yosemite RCAs as we were getting static from the pair of AQ Water RCA cables I have used previously. The Vu Jade does not have a USB in so we used a Jorma SPDIF.  

I used to own the DSD.  I definitely know how to update the firmware.  Will do.  

I think Aqua is an interesting brand.  I have take a few units on trade but have not heard one as I sold them to other retailers.  If anyone is in NYC metro and wants to lend me one for a day....

Would be nice to have the Aqua Formula xHD Rev 2 in your shootout.I love mine.

Verdantaudio;
When you take in the P S Audio DSD, please make sure it is equipped with the latest software upgrade, “Sunlight”.  Most owners seem to agree the Sunlight version is the best.
If you need help (it’s a very simple task), please reach out and I can get you what you need.

Tim

@yyzsantabarbara I am sorry to hear that you are having issues.  Let me know how I can help.  

The Weiss is the first device I have had that has on-board room correction other than AVRs and Pre/Pros.  It is easily bypassed.  

I try to avoid buying room correction on any audio hardware because they are all weak processors of data and fixed in their processing horsepower forever (a firmware update does not increase horsepower).  Computers on the other hand are super cheap and get more powerful each year. You can also use these cheap and powerful computers with ROON Server and easily keep the noise out of the DAC (fibre optical streaming).

I have 2 sets of Convolution filters (headphone and floorstanders) that work on my far away ROON Server and will work with EVERY single DAC listed on this thread. At this moment I have stopped using these filters because I managed to make the room and headphones (sometimes) work without them. One set of these professionally crafted filters cost me $700 and the other set was $250.

@verdantaudio An hour ago I had a musician at my place listening to my 2 DACs and telling me his opinion. We listened to CHARLES MINGUS - Ah Um album to do some comparisons. It was very illuminating for me and I was told how the DACs were doing reproducing the instruments from this musicians experienced ear. Seems my 2 office DACs have some issues for him. I will get in contact with you in the near future and we can discuss how I can improve my setup.

Excellent.  Thanks again

@jjss49 very interested in your perspective. 

@redwoodaudio  I will reach out to Lampizator and see if they will send me a demo.  

@kren006  Here you go:

• Rockna Wavedream Signature SE - $12K, XLR - $17K)
• Bricasti M1 SE - $10K, $11K with optional network card
• Weiss 501/502 - $8995 for 501, $9995 for 502, only difference is 502 has fully balanced headphone amp and is wider
• Bricasti M3 - $5500 base, +$500 for remote, +$500 for headphone amp, +$1000 for network card
• Chord TT2 - $5495
• Rockna Wavelight - $4950
• Audiobyte HydraVox w/ ZAP Power Supply - $4500
• Chord Hugo 2 - $2495
• AVM Internal Card for 5.2 series - $800

I am going to add in:

• PS Audio DSD - $5999 w/ Bridge II $6848 I think
• Wyred4Sound DAC 2v2 SE - $3799

Just a reminder, all tests were conducted using an AVM A5.2 Integrated Amp, Vivid Kaya 45 speakers, Chord 2go/2yu renderer, Roon Nucleus+ with AQ Robin Hood Zero Speaker Cables, AQ Water ICs (XLR and RCA where appropriate) AQ Diamond USB & AQ Cinnamon Ethernet.  

Verdant when you get a chance can you list the DACs that are part of the shootout and what the msrp for each are?  Perhaps that is scattered across the thread but I don't think it has been summarized in one place, particularly since some changes from the original plan have developed.  If I missed it, I apologize.

I learned something important in the 35 years I was a professional sound man and that is your brain is the great equalizer, you will have the best idea of the sound in the first few seconds the only time your brain doesn’t have time to normalize your perception. 

@verdantaudio,
Fantastic! Looking forward to learn how the DSD Sr. compares.

@verdantaudio, if you’ve gone this far (and you have gone very far, indeed!), you deserve to listen to a lampizator in direct comparison (and I want to hear your take too). Something like the newer Atlantic TRP or higher (TRP is about $7k to 8k).  I now own the Atlantic TRP and am loving it.  Massive soundstage compared to Holo May or Wells Cipher who preceded it.  Still highly resolving.  None of the doodads that these other DACs have in spades, but just straight up tube dac magic with top flight Deltasignma chip.  Just saying…

scott, i got my weiss dac502 yesterday, just gathering initial impressions... what a superb piece... i am going to need some time to figure this thing out it has a lot of toys on board (most interesting of which is room correction), and carefully compare against the mscaler/tt2 duo, as well as the audio note dac 4.1... fun fun fun  :)

@treebeard1 I have a PS Audio DSD Sr coming in toward the end of next week. I took it on trade today. I will add it as a point of comparison.  

This is not good.  Every time you post my budget goes up 😆

Next Update - Weiss 501 vs. Bricasti M1 SE vs Rockna Wavedream Signature

I would start off by saying this is in essence, no compromise space.  All three of these are elite.  They are clear.  They have incredible separation between instruments and are roughly neutral.  All three have massive soundstages.  There are simply small differences in tonal profile and detail level that would alter your options.  

This is now about careful system matching to your taste and not about compromise as detail and soundstage are cost of entry.  

The M1 SE is the least detailed but is brilliant and is extremely engaging in all ways.   Soundstage is huge and well under control.  The central image is deep.  The image is wide.  Like the M3, their is a slight emphasis on bass vs. the Weiss and Rockna but not overwhelming.  That being said, it handles the bass solo on Duende admirably, almost all the effects come out in Liberty and strings are well separated in the Berg piece.  Harmonics in female voices are brought out in a really engaging and wonderful way, the best of the three for female vocals.  

There are like 13 filters and I settled on Linear 1.  This is an incredibly fun and engaging DAC to listen too. It is not as detailed as the other two (Weiss and Rockna) but is as detailed or more detailed than any of the units in the $5K range and has a better soundstage than those in that it is huge sounding but stable and imaging is precise. 

The Weiss is about precision and accuracy.  This is clean and clear to an almost unimaginable level while throwing out a massive soundstage.  As large as the M1 SE, maybe even deeper away from the center.  In terms of sound profile, it is maybe a touch cold.  Settings are critically important on this DAC. 

First run through the songs, I was getting a touch of distortion.  Not what I was expecting.  Changed the setting from full output to -10dB and voila, perfection.  And that is the best way to describe this DAC.  It delivers borderline perfect, completely clean, undistorted sound, yet with a huge soundstage.  

There is no coloration.  There is good air around instruments.  But there is a complete lack of warmth and it is unforgiving.  That being said, it has an insane feature set.  There is no sibilance in the Sting track or during Liberty.  Brighter systems can suffer from sibilance problems so they offer a D-esser DSP to resolve that.  If you want a more analog and colored sound, it has vinyl mode.  Have a bad room, it has room correction.  Listen at low volume, there is a loudness setting.  

I tested both the M1 SE and the Weiss via USB and their own, internal renderers.  Suffice it to say, ethernet is the way to go.  The M1 SE is a little better with it's card vs. the 2Go/2Yu.  The Weiss is a lot better.  They sell just the renderer and DSP portion of this and it would make an incredible front end for a very nice system.  

Finally, the Rockna is remarkable in that it is unremarkable.  It is tough to describe the sound profile.  It is not forward.  It is not laid back.  There is no emphasis in bass.  It is also not lean.  There just nothing to note.  It is not a DAC you will ever notice.  The soundstage is big.  Detail level is as good as the Weiss or very close.   The way you would notice it is that you just don't notice it.  

Yet there is a touch of, not warmth, but harmonics that comes through that makes it a hair sweeter and more forgiving than the Weiss.  This might be the R2R ladders.  It does not sound digital and is maybe a bit more analog sounding than the Weiss.  It is almost like a middle ground between the Weiss and the M1 SE.  Comparably equipped it is $17K for the XLR version compared to $11K and $9K for Bricasti and Weiss respectively so it should be better.  It very much makes me want to hear the Bricasti M21 side-by-side which would be a fairer comparison. 

If you either just love musicality and detail is not be all end all priority or your system is a touch cold, the Bricasti is an easy choice.  

If you are focused on detail, crave accuracy or are interested in the feature set (amazing headphone amp not mentioned yet) this is a brilliant DAC.  If your system is a little cold, this may not be the best choice. 

If your system is in balance and you simply want to elevate it to and elite level, the Rockna is insanely good.  

Don’t know how you can find sibilance distortion without sibilance.

Very simple.
Sibilance is a very complex waveform and hard to reproduce exactly with nothing added or removed.
There is natural sibilance and that’s listenable, when it’s emphasised it’s added distortion that’s created trying to produce the natural sibilance, when there’s no sibilance, usually means the amp has rolled off or masked it with bandwidth limitations

Wide bandwidth SS Class-A done right is usually the best at doing it perfect, nothing added nothing removed, and violin piano high notes are a good indicator also.

Cheers George

Very well done. Thanks.

@melm I started this whole thread because it recently occurred to me how much compromise there actually is at this ~$5K level of DAC.  The reality is (and I will offer a POV on the Hugo 2 and AVM along with a Wyred4Sound DAC that is coming in) these four are better than these lower end DACs in every way.  

That being said, there is still compromise and it is largely a trade between detail and imaging vs. DACs one level up.  Additionally, there is most definitely still some distortion at this level.  Again, it is all relative and I am being HIGHLY critical and nitpicking in tiny areas.  

Secondarily, I did not pick these tracks by accident. I know that all 5 are extremely difficult to reproduce flawlessly and the goal is to highlight broad differences in profile and how they perform in these extremes.  99% of the time, sibilance is not an issue for these DACs but there are places where it can rise up.  

@georgehifi

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Don't know how you can find sibilance distortion without sibilance.  

I have 4 or 5 Scheherazades on my hard disk, so not looking for a new one.  Beautiful violin sounds can be found in a great number of places.  Try Ehnes playing the Spring Sonata, for ex.  

@verdantaudio
Perhaps there's something I do not understand.  I recall sibilance distortion, that is distortion of the "s" and "sh" sound in speaking and singing, in the analog realm.  It arose principally from cartridge mistracking or worn LPs.  However, at least for the last two DACs I have owned ( LKS MH-DA004 and Musetec MH-DA005, neither with US distribution) I don't believe I have ever heard sibilance distortion so described.  I asked some other owners and they agree.  Can it really be that DACs at the level in this thread exhibit this sort of distortion?

If it’s distracting on voice sibilance (it’s distortion), it will without a doubt manifest itself on violin and piano as well.

Play the 4 tracks (5ths a bonus add on) of of Jose Serbrier and the LPO of Rimsky Korsakov’s Scheherazade on RR-89CD the violin should sound like the sweetest sounds of most beautiful woman ever!!!, making eyes at you. If it doesn’t, you’ve got distortion.
Get it on CD only!!
https://referencerecordings.com/recording/rimsky-korsakov-scheherazade/

Cheers George

@melm yes.  It is sibilance where it does not belong, so yes, distortion.  

I appreciate this informative thread.  I wonder if I could seek just a bit of clarification.  You've used the term "sibilance" a number of times in your descriptions.  Sibilance is a natural "s" or "sh" sound that I would expect to hear in anyone's speech or song, recorded or not.  When you use the term, though, do you mean "sibilance distortion"? 

Thank you. 

i too have a weiss dac501 incoming... will be interesting to compare against the chordscaler/tt2 and my fave tube dac audio note 4.1

Nice, intelligent thread, Verdant jumped a lot of hoops in keeping things relevant and in-line, thank you.

I can imagine what turntable owners with multiple arms and cartridge combinations go through for various recordings and preferences!

FWIW, I own a tube-based Dac from Vu Jade Audio aka (bigkidz) 

100% agree with Verdant Audio's thoughts below. I've had the pleasure  of listening to the Weiss in my system for a couple of days so far. 

The Weiss is a stellar high-resolution DAC.  Precise, controlled, neutral - listening to the Weiss, I don't have to suspend much disbelief to feel like I'm in the recording studio. It toes the line of being objective and thoroughly enjoyable. I'm pairing it with a 30w tube/SS pure class A amp (Riviera Audio Labs). It's a beautiful system match.

My other available DAC is a Roon-ready totaldac. It offers an equally alive and engaging sound -- but a different kind of sound. There's a certain je ne sais quoi -  a seductive analogue flavor and goosebump factor. Whatever it is, it's hard to resist. Tres chic.

Both are great. My favorite is whichever one I'm currently listening to.

The current DAC market is both easy and hard. Easy in the sense that there are many excellent DACs that sound different in easy-to-hear ways. But it can be hard to weigh those differences and decide which DAC to buy for keeps.

@jjss49 sorry to hear about your friends in Fort Lee.  We live on a higher floor and our garage is above ground so it was not a huge deal for us luckily. 

I've owned my Bricasti M1 Limited Gold for several years, paired with YG Carmel speakers and driven (in the past 18 months) by a Bricasti M25 stereo amp. All digital fed through Laufer Teknik 64 32-core. 

I've heard a ton of DACs over the past several years, and remain satisfied with my Bricasti. I believe the pairing with the Bricasti amp is also splendid. 

I often have "the itch", but there has been no urge to replace the Bricasti or YG's.

Thanks for the comparison...well done.

@verdantaudio

i hope you and yours are fine and survived the insane flash flooding in the tri state area... i have dear friends in fort lee with two cars in their underground garage that became leaky submarines... just amazing and shocking what is happening in our world these days

re dacs, and a question posed earlier, i believe the sonnet morpheus is a very good r2r dac and with a cool feature set (mqa card capability and remote volume control), sonically it is excellent in absolute terms but i suspect not quite to the class of what scott is testing (or maybe, equal to the lower tier of the bunch)

@kren0006  Regarding the Weiss -

It is incredibly resolving.  One of the most detailed DACs I have heard.  I would guess that it is more detailed than the M1 SE, not sure how it will compare to the Rockna Wavedream Signature SE which is the most detailed DAC in this test thus far.  

Tonally, I find it quite neutral.  Not bright or warm.  That being said, it is an accurate, very low distortion DAC.  Some may find it clinical though lack of brightness will keep it from being cold.  I have not had the experience of it being clinical but if paired with the wrong amp, maybe.  That being said, I have not heard this DAC with pure SS gear.  All of my gear here is either pure tube (Art Audio, Canor) or in the case of the AVM, has a tube input stage.  I will have a Magnus Audio 340 coming in soon on trade which is a 50w Class A SS and will give it a listen.  

The DAC is "Roon Ready" and is UPnP and DLNA compliant so ethernet in is a good option.  In my testing, I found it to be the best input.  It also has tons of DSP options and room correction which are easily executed via a Web Interface.  It also has a nice quality remote and you can navigate via the touch screen and the front dial. That Web Interface is not used to play music though, just control the DAC.  You need to use a separate bit of software (Roon, JRiver, etc...) and have either a PC or Server on your network.  We recommend Antipodes servers with Weiss and Bricasti gear with built in network cards.  

@dankef  I have never heard a Sonnet product. I have no idea how it performs.  I would start your own thread asking that question as the best chance to get a good answer from someone who is familiar with it.  

@bigkidz Yep.  JC, NJ.  This weekend is quite busy with family stuff but will be in touch.  

@treebeard   I would do my best to get as far back as you can.  Can you maybe use the adjustable studs to compensate for different depth with carpet or are you using spikes?  If you are using spikes, I get the limitations completely.  

Verdant,
just based on your past experiences with the Weiss how would you characterize its house sound compared to others in general?

or if you prefer not to comment outside of the specific comparison you’ve arranged with this shootout I understand

also dumb question but does Weiss have streamer built in and accept Ethernet and have a phone UI to operate it?  (Ie, is it a one box solution?)

@verdantaudio - just wondering if you've heard the Sonnet Morpheus? I'm considering an upgrade from the Morpheus to the Rockna Wavelight or Bricasti M3 (or similar tier DAC) but not sure if it's worth it. 

Would also appreciate feedback from anyone else who's compared the Morpheus with the Rockna or Bricasti.

Crap - you are in Jersey City NJ?  I'll be happy to bring some gear over for you to hear or you can visit us in Boonton NJ to hear some of our gear.

Happy Listening.

I believe Terry London of Stereo Times now prefers the Audio Note UK DAC 3.1/II (twice the price) to the Bricasti M3.

I have heard neither.

Have you gone closer to the sidewalls? It depends on the speaker if that reflection helps or hurts and those are way out into the room. Does the bass get to boomy if you move them back a but? For me, optimal is wider than 6'.  

Not much room to side because they are on the edge of the rug. It doesn't get boomy at all. Moved chair back a foot and had my first real listening session since getting the XA25 and definitely got improvement. Next house will have more room for the speakers to breathe. 

My Weiss comparison is going to be delayed.  Another customer requested a demo and the DAC is on its way to them.  Should be back next week 

@treebeard1 - I took a look at your room.  It is a very nice setup.  It looks like you are trying to maintain an equilateral triangle.  I have only a little experience with Tektons.  I have a customer I am working with who has the Ulfbehrts.  I am not sure how much they emphasize that and how sensitive they are in terms of placement near the sidewalls.  

Have you gone closer to the sidewalls?  It depends on the speaker if that reflection helps or hurts and those are way out into the room.  Does the bass get to boomy if you move them back a but?  For me, optimal is wider than 6'.  

If you are looking for soundstage depth, the M3 or the Wavelight would definitely be a step forward.  The M3 has the network card which makes it a brilliant option.  I would seriously consider it.  I do think you will have some limitations with how close you are to those speakers.  

One note, I assume when you say "non-audiophile" you mean normal music that people like, not low res.  If that is the case, I would recommend that M3 very much.  I obviously listen to more than audiophile tracks and digging into normal rock music (The Cars, Black Sabbath, Hendricks, Christopher Cross, Jimmy Buffet, etc...) I really liked it.  This is the DAC I have been listening too during my days and it makes me very happy.  

If you mean low res 128k and 256k MP3s, that is a completely different issue.  

@rja I have listened to the M1 SE and M3 via a renderer plugged into the USB.  I also listened to the M1 SE via USB and the Ethernet.  
In the end, I think it very much depends on your musical tastes and how much precision matters.  Via the USB the M1 SE is objectively the better DAC.  That being said, “better” from a technical perspective doesn’t mean it would be more enjoyable.  
If precision and accuracy is important and the extra $4500 is not financially taxing, then yes, I think it is worth the step up based on my listening.  As I said above, it might be possible that the gap between the M3s USB and Ethernet board is much greater than M1s.  If that is the case then maybe I am wrong.  

@rja I would think the OP can only answer your question if listening to each unit via their dedicated internal Ethernet ports. So far the OP has compared one unit via Ethernet (M1SE) and the other unit (M3) via USB. Apples to oranges. 

verdantaudio,
Do you feel that the difference in sound quality between the M3 and M1SE warrants the difference in their prices? I realize the answer would be strictly subjective but I’d be interested in your opinion.

@verdantaudio

yyzsantabarbara - all of the DACs tested produced what sounded like a clear bass line. It was only in comparison that I realized that it could be better than what I was hearing.

Yes, I understand that but I was a happy to notice that my cheaper DACs did not fail on that test. That album you used is awesome. Thanks for the musical discovery.

@verdantaudio, thanks for the info. Great stuff.

Yesterday I updated my system page and today I added this:

Speakers are 6 feet apart center-to-center and the back of the speakers are 4 feet from the front wall and about 2.5 feet from the side walls. Listening position is 6 feet back and speakers are on GAIA I's and slightly toed in to point over my shoulders. GIK bass traps are on the walls, corners and ceiling, which resulted in a big improvement in soundstage.

What I'm really missing is depth and space around instruments and depth of the soundstage.  Maybe in my price range the space between instruments and instrument height is a big ask?  I will admit that much of the music I listen to is not audiophile quality but a good amount is.

No swapping of cards.  

For the two units during the testing, I strictly used the 2Go/2Yu as the input.  
I did test the M1 SE separately with the two inputs and found I like Ethernet slightly better.  Theoretically the network card could be much better on the M3.  I am making an assumption that it had a similar benefit to both.  

@tvad @verdantaudio

Regarding performance, my M3 does not have the network card. The M1 SE has the network card.

That’s a significant data point, and could go a long way to explaining differences in sonic characteristics between the M3 and M1 SE. It’s a shame they weren’t comparably equipped.

yes - that point jumped out at me too... i don’t know the bricasti units... can the network card be swapped from m1 to m3 and then run comparison the other way? that may isolate the beneficial effect of the card on sq of the 2 units