DAC Shootout Starts This Weekend

Great idea Verdantaudio. Will follow this enthusiastically.

Antigrunge2, I have to agree. I’ve heard great R2R DACs, and know the sound of the Magicwire DAC in the Devialet Expert Pro, which is based around a Texas Instruments PCM1792 (Delta Sigma topology). I believe that its not so much about the DAC chip in and of itself, but the execution of the supporting architecture and the chip together. Having heard several high-end DACs including R2R and FPGA based DACs, I can confidently state that the Devialet Magic Wire DAC is in the same class. 

@axeis1  I don't think I mentioned that I did test the filters.  Chord is the brand I am most familiar with so I tested them quickly in this setup but found I liked it best with the filters off.  This is not a particularly bright setup and I find the TT2 filters add a touch of warmth in high frequencies, that is it.  They are more subtle than say NOS vs linear on the Wavelight.  

I rarely use the Chord filters with either system as both have tubes or my headphones that I use most commonly (Thinksound On1 and Focal Celestee).  On the rare occasion that I have a demo of another headphone, that may change.  I would have the filter on warmest with say Focal Utopias.  Probably off for Stellias.  You get the idea.  Headphones have been hard to keep in stock and I can't open a pair for demo.  

Good job so far Scott. I was wondering and maybe I missed it but did you try the different filters on the TT2? 

Hugo 2 vs. the internal DAC card on the AVM Evolution A5.2 Integrated.  

At first I thought this was an unfair comparison.  A $2500 DAC/ headphone amp vs. an $800 card.  Take away the headphone amp and battery and the Hugo 2 is basically a Qutest.  No need for a case and power supply....strong potential these would be pretty comparable.  I was correct.  They are two very different sounding DACs but in many ways are quite comparable. 

This is by far the hardest portion of this to write.  I wish I would not have listened to the better DACs before writing it.  All DACs in the price tier above (~$5K) are better in every way.  It doesn't make them bad.  Just not as good as the units that are 2x-6x the price.   

The Hugo 2 is a DAC I use for lots of stuff because of its mobility and connectivity but other than with headphones, I rarely listen to it critically.  The immediate thing you notice is stable and clear.  It is centered but did not extend beyond the speakers.  This is not a bass heavy DAC(this does not show up with headphones) and this is what creates the perception that it can be a hair bright.  Instrument separation is good.  Some massing of string in particularly challenging parts of the Berg piece and the opening of Duende was a challenge but overall, detail is a strength for this DAC.

The AVM is the opposite.  It had a lush central image with an emphasis on bass that creates a perceived warmth.  The image also did not extend beyond the speakers but it was more layered and delivered more of an experience.  Detail is not a strength.  Strings massed during more challenging parts of the Berg piece and the opening of Duende was a struggle.   Expectations though with AVM are that it will have a richer, warmer sound and it did.  

Basically, if you are looking for a good DAC in the $2500 range and below, Chord is going to be on many lists and belong there.  Detail retrieval is excellent and if detail is your priority...this is a brilliant DAC (as is the Qutest).  

For what is not an inexpensive integrated amp ($6995 list) with two optional cards push price to $8595 (Phono & DAC - each $800) you would hope the DAC would be decent and fit with the brands house sound.  It does.  It would not be uncommon for someone to pair a Chord Qutest with the AVM integrated or a similarly priced DAC.  If you like a warmer sound and want a one box solution, this would not be a bad option.  

Great thread! Thanks for the info, and looking forward to more!

@georgehifi.  Not an intentional omission.  Thanks for catching.

@jjss49 i very much want to know your thoughts on this.  Thank you for sharing.  

@georghifi.  I thought I mentioned that the Vu Jade was an R2R.  Definitely a good
sounding unit.

No, you only mentioned the cheaper single box was Delta Sigma

verdantaudio OP
Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade. The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC. They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.  

@georghifi.  I thought I mentioned that the Vu Jade was an R2R.  Definitely a good
sounding unit.

@treebeard1  the M3 will be a noticeable step up and will have similar musicality as the PS Audio.  It feels like a natural step forward.  
@milpai the Audiobyte and Bricasti both do pure DSD.  I can lend you either.  My M3 is off at a customer until their order arrives so It would be maybe 10 days.  The Audiobyte could be shipped tomorrow.  The TT2 is excellent but yes, it leans a bit cold.  

@verdantaudio 

i am quite enthralled by both the weiss and the hugo tt2, with the m scaler upstream... both are beautiful sounding, superb, and utterly without digital artifacts, tonal balance and nature of imaging slightly different between the two

need to listen more, using different connections, to confirm what i think i am hearing as to the differences, before i try to express it in words

@georgehifi,Thank You for the details. So R2R is preferred if you mostly use CD resolution. We will agree to differ on the fact that I love to upsample all my FLACs to DSD :-) But thatss besides the point.
@verdantaudio,I was seriously eyeing the Wavelight, but I understand that it does not do pure DSD. So now the Dricasti M3 seems to be the go-to DAC. The Chord Hugo TT2 is also interesting, but I heard from multiple sources that it is on the cold sterile side. Thank You for the comparisons.

@verdantaudio, Thanks for the PSA DSD review.  Since I have the Jr. I can assume it's about 85% of the Sr., which is still behind the M3 and others.  Although I have been happy with the detail, depth and separation are what I feel is missing.   This information definitely helps me move forward.  

verdantaudio OP
Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade. The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC. They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.
What it delivers is PRaT. Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun. It is not bloated. It is not lean. Nor is it overly warm. I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled. It made Anette Askvik's voice sounded incredible during Liberty. There was no sibilance in Sting's voice or during Liberty. It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent.

 

  Sounds like you just listened to a R2R dac, you didn’t say what conversion topology this one uses uses??  You did say the cheaper one is Delta Sigma. though.

Cheers George

PS Audio DSD is in and tested.  This is by far the oldest tech tested and in the end, it is very obvious why this unit is well liked.  

The tonal profile is flat.  Not bright, not warm.  Not lean.  Not bloated.  What it lacks is detail and a deep central image.  It has a very wide soundstage and a certain sweetness that is quite enjoyable.  

Separation on the drum roll in In a Sentimental Mood, chimes and bells in Be Still My Beating heart and the opening of Duende lacked separation compared even to the least detailed units in its price class. 

For those obsessed with detail, this is not for you.  And you will see this criticism from some.  Look to the TT2 or Audiobyte in this price class.  Weiss, Chord Dave or Rockna in the price tier above.  If you are just looking for a fun sounding, enjoyable unit that does a lot well...this is a good choice. 

At the full price today of $6K ($6.9K) w/ bridge II, this is a nice sounding DAC but I think newer tech has leapfrogged it.  The unit was introduced in 2014.  I think the Bricasti M3 is more detailed, has a better central image, is equally wide and is similarly priced.  For a touch more, the Wavelight with a Bricasti M5 would best it easily in terms of detail and soundstage.  

However, at $3K w/o bridge, $3600 w/bridge in the used market, this is a strong value.  

We need to add Ayre QX-5 Twenty and Jeff Rowland Aeris into the mix :-)

The Bricasti M3 may only do DSD 256, but it does DSD in a Native pure 1 bit conversion.

On a pure spec basis, the Bricasti is only capable of DSD 256 which would make it technically inferior to the other 3 which are capable of DSD 512. The PS Audio DSD just arrived and is as limited.

I do like the Audiobyte which has a pure DSD setting that bypasses any extra internal processing. It does only work as a DAC this way and the volume control and headphone amp are turned off. It also is only available via USB and /or I2S inputs.

That mode would give it an edge vs the other two (TT2 and Wavelight) for that reason.

If a user purely does DSD playback in his system

If you only do DSD (no pcm) then Delta Sigma is the way to go. But if you do 50/50 then go R2R with dsd capabilities If you do 100% PCM: RedBook,16.44, 24.96, or DXD then the only choice is for the best reproduction is a well thought out R2R dac, as Delta Sigma can only give a facsimile of PCM

Cheers George

@verdantaudio,If a user purely does DSD playback in his system , which DAC in the $5k range would you recommend. I doubt the R2R would be helpful in such cases. But do correct me if I got that wrong.

What it delivers is PRaT. Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun. It is not bloated. It is not lean. Nor is it overly warm. I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled. It made Anette Askvik’s voice sounded incredible during Liberty. There was no sibilance in Sting’s voice or during Liberty. It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent.
This DAC is quite at home in its price and delivers a very analog sound.

Sounds like you just listened to a R2R dac, you didn’t say what conversion topology this one uses uses?? You said the cheaper one is Delta Sigma. though.

However, it sounded big and slightly colored to me on strings.

Maybe the tubes causing that???

Cheers George

Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade.  The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC.  They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.  

After a variety of issues, (poor contact on an SPDIF cable, failure of a pair of my RCAs and me forgetting to switch Ethernet cable to the 2Go/2Yu) we were finally ready to listen.  Good news is the DAC had plenty of time to warm up.  

At this price point, I expect minimal compromise and the Vu Jade delivered.  There is still a little bit of a trade in terms of detail vs. soundstage and imaging but that tradeoff is not unreasonable or out of line with similarly priced DACs.  It is close to as detailed as the Bricasti M1 SE if not as detailed.  It's image is as large.  Depth is excellent and the image is incredibly stable. Not quite as detailed and controlled as the Rockna or Weiss but this was not surprising.  

What it delivers is PRaT.  Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun.  It is not bloated.  It is not lean.  Nor is it overly warm.  I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled.  It made Anette Askvik's voice sounded incredible during Liberty.  There was no sibilance in Sting's voice or during Liberty.  It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent. 

However, it sounded big and slightly colored to me on strings. The intimacy of the Berg piece was lost slightly though there was no smearing or massing of strings.  If I was a Classical junkie, I might look for slightly brighter speakers (Vivid Giyas, Avantgardes???) and/or a slightly brighter amp to pair with this DAC.  The AVM is known for being neutral to warm.
This DAC is quite at home in its price and delivers a very analog sound.  

Note: for this test we used an Audioquest Yosemite RCAs as we were getting static from the pair of AQ Water RCA cables I have used previously. The Vu Jade does not have a USB in so we used a Jorma SPDIF.  

I used to own the DSD.  I definitely know how to update the firmware.  Will do.  

I think Aqua is an interesting brand.  I have take a few units on trade but have not heard one as I sold them to other retailers.  If anyone is in NYC metro and wants to lend me one for a day....

Would be nice to have the Aqua Formula xHD Rev 2 in your shootout.I love mine.

Verdantaudio;
When you take in the P S Audio DSD, please make sure it is equipped with the latest software upgrade, “Sunlight”.  Most owners seem to agree the Sunlight version is the best.
If you need help (it’s a very simple task), please reach out and I can get you what you need.

Tim

@yyzsantabarbara I am sorry to hear that you are having issues.  Let me know how I can help.  

The Weiss is the first device I have had that has on-board room correction other than AVRs and Pre/Pros.  It is easily bypassed.  

I try to avoid buying room correction on any audio hardware because they are all weak processors of data and fixed in their processing horsepower forever (a firmware update does not increase horsepower).  Computers on the other hand are super cheap and get more powerful each year. You can also use these cheap and powerful computers with ROON Server and easily keep the noise out of the DAC (fibre optical streaming).

I have 2 sets of Convolution filters (headphone and floorstanders) that work on my far away ROON Server and will work with EVERY single DAC listed on this thread. At this moment I have stopped using these filters because I managed to make the room and headphones (sometimes) work without them. One set of these professionally crafted filters cost me $700 and the other set was $250.

@verdantaudio An hour ago I had a musician at my place listening to my 2 DACs and telling me his opinion. We listened to CHARLES MINGUS - Ah Um album to do some comparisons. It was very illuminating for me and I was told how the DACs were doing reproducing the instruments from this musicians experienced ear. Seems my 2 office DACs have some issues for him. I will get in contact with you in the near future and we can discuss how I can improve my setup.

Excellent.  Thanks again

@jjss49 very interested in your perspective. 

@redwoodaudio  I will reach out to Lampizator and see if they will send me a demo.  

@kren006  Here you go:

• Rockna Wavedream Signature SE - $12K, XLR - $17K)
• Bricasti M1 SE - $10K, $11K with optional network card
• Weiss 501/502 - $8995 for 501, $9995 for 502, only difference is 502 has fully balanced headphone amp and is wider
• Bricasti M3 - $5500 base, +$500 for remote, +$500 for headphone amp, +$1000 for network card
• Chord TT2 - $5495
• Rockna Wavelight - $4950
• Audiobyte HydraVox w/ ZAP Power Supply - $4500
• Chord Hugo 2 - $2495
• AVM Internal Card for 5.2 series - $800

I am going to add in:

• PS Audio DSD - $5999 w/ Bridge II $6848 I think
• Wyred4Sound DAC 2v2 SE - $3799

Just a reminder, all tests were conducted using an AVM A5.2 Integrated Amp, Vivid Kaya 45 speakers, Chord 2go/2yu renderer, Roon Nucleus+ with AQ Robin Hood Zero Speaker Cables, AQ Water ICs (XLR and RCA where appropriate) AQ Diamond USB & AQ Cinnamon Ethernet.  

Verdant when you get a chance can you list the DACs that are part of the shootout and what the msrp for each are?  Perhaps that is scattered across the thread but I don't think it has been summarized in one place, particularly since some changes from the original plan have developed.  If I missed it, I apologize.

I learned something important in the 35 years I was a professional sound man and that is your brain is the great equalizer, you will have the best idea of the sound in the first few seconds the only time your brain doesn’t have time to normalize your perception. 

@verdantaudio,
Fantastic! Looking forward to learn how the DSD Sr. compares.

@verdantaudio, if you’ve gone this far (and you have gone very far, indeed!), you deserve to listen to a lampizator in direct comparison (and I want to hear your take too). Something like the newer Atlantic TRP or higher (TRP is about $7k to 8k).  I now own the Atlantic TRP and am loving it.  Massive soundstage compared to Holo May or Wells Cipher who preceded it.  Still highly resolving.  None of the doodads that these other DACs have in spades, but just straight up tube dac magic with top flight Deltasignma chip.  Just saying…

scott, i got my weiss dac502 yesterday, just gathering initial impressions... what a superb piece... i am going to need some time to figure this thing out it has a lot of toys on board (most interesting of which is room correction), and carefully compare against the mscaler/tt2 duo, as well as the audio note dac 4.1... fun fun fun  :)

@treebeard1 I have a PS Audio DSD Sr coming in toward the end of next week. I took it on trade today. I will add it as a point of comparison.  

This is not good.  Every time you post my budget goes up 😆

Next Update - Weiss 501 vs. Bricasti M1 SE vs Rockna Wavedream Signature

I would start off by saying this is in essence, no compromise space.  All three of these are elite.  They are clear.  They have incredible separation between instruments and are roughly neutral.  All three have massive soundstages.  There are simply small differences in tonal profile and detail level that would alter your options.  

This is now about careful system matching to your taste and not about compromise as detail and soundstage are cost of entry.  

The M1 SE is the least detailed but is brilliant and is extremely engaging in all ways.   Soundstage is huge and well under control.  The central image is deep.  The image is wide.  Like the M3, their is a slight emphasis on bass vs. the Weiss and Rockna but not overwhelming.  That being said, it handles the bass solo on Duende admirably, almost all the effects come out in Liberty and strings are well separated in the Berg piece.  Harmonics in female voices are brought out in a really engaging and wonderful way, the best of the three for female vocals.  

There are like 13 filters and I settled on Linear 1.  This is an incredibly fun and engaging DAC to listen too. It is not as detailed as the other two (Weiss and Rockna) but is as detailed or more detailed than any of the units in the $5K range and has a better soundstage than those in that it is huge sounding but stable and imaging is precise. 

The Weiss is about precision and accuracy.  This is clean and clear to an almost unimaginable level while throwing out a massive soundstage.  As large as the M1 SE, maybe even deeper away from the center.  In terms of sound profile, it is maybe a touch cold.  Settings are critically important on this DAC. 

First run through the songs, I was getting a touch of distortion.  Not what I was expecting.  Changed the setting from full output to -10dB and voila, perfection.  And that is the best way to describe this DAC.  It delivers borderline perfect, completely clean, undistorted sound, yet with a huge soundstage.  

There is no coloration.  There is good air around instruments.  But there is a complete lack of warmth and it is unforgiving.  That being said, it has an insane feature set.  There is no sibilance in the Sting track or during Liberty.  Brighter systems can suffer from sibilance problems so they offer a D-esser DSP to resolve that.  If you want a more analog and colored sound, it has vinyl mode.  Have a bad room, it has room correction.  Listen at low volume, there is a loudness setting.  

I tested both the M1 SE and the Weiss via USB and their own, internal renderers.  Suffice it to say, ethernet is the way to go.  The M1 SE is a little better with it's card vs. the 2Go/2Yu.  The Weiss is a lot better.  They sell just the renderer and DSP portion of this and it would make an incredible front end for a very nice system.  

Finally, the Rockna is remarkable in that it is unremarkable.  It is tough to describe the sound profile.  It is not forward.  It is not laid back.  There is no emphasis in bass.  It is also not lean.  There just nothing to note.  It is not a DAC you will ever notice.  The soundstage is big.  Detail level is as good as the Weiss or very close.   The way you would notice it is that you just don't notice it.  

Yet there is a touch of, not warmth, but harmonics that comes through that makes it a hair sweeter and more forgiving than the Weiss.  This might be the R2R ladders.  It does not sound digital and is maybe a bit more analog sounding than the Weiss.  It is almost like a middle ground between the Weiss and the M1 SE.  Comparably equipped it is $17K for the XLR version compared to $11K and $9K for Bricasti and Weiss respectively so it should be better.  It very much makes me want to hear the Bricasti M21 side-by-side which would be a fairer comparison. 

If you either just love musicality and detail is not be all end all priority or your system is a touch cold, the Bricasti is an easy choice.  

If you are focused on detail, crave accuracy or are interested in the feature set (amazing headphone amp not mentioned yet) this is a brilliant DAC.  If your system is a little cold, this may not be the best choice. 

If your system is in balance and you simply want to elevate it to and elite level, the Rockna is insanely good.  

Don’t know how you can find sibilance distortion without sibilance.

Very simple.
Sibilance is a very complex waveform and hard to reproduce exactly with nothing added or removed.
There is natural sibilance and that’s listenable, when it’s emphasised it’s added distortion that’s created trying to produce the natural sibilance, when there’s no sibilance, usually means the amp has rolled off or masked it with bandwidth limitations

Wide bandwidth SS Class-A done right is usually the best at doing it perfect, nothing added nothing removed, and violin piano high notes are a good indicator also.

Cheers George

Very well done. Thanks.

@melm I started this whole thread because it recently occurred to me how much compromise there actually is at this ~$5K level of DAC.  The reality is (and I will offer a POV on the Hugo 2 and AVM along with a Wyred4Sound DAC that is coming in) these four are better than these lower end DACs in every way.  

That being said, there is still compromise and it is largely a trade between detail and imaging vs. DACs one level up.  Additionally, there is most definitely still some distortion at this level.  Again, it is all relative and I am being HIGHLY critical and nitpicking in tiny areas.  

Secondarily, I did not pick these tracks by accident. I know that all 5 are extremely difficult to reproduce flawlessly and the goal is to highlight broad differences in profile and how they perform in these extremes.  99% of the time, sibilance is not an issue for these DACs but there are places where it can rise up.  

@georgehifi

I have no idea what you are talking about.  Don't know how you can find sibilance distortion without sibilance.  

I have 4 or 5 Scheherazades on my hard disk, so not looking for a new one.  Beautiful violin sounds can be found in a great number of places.  Try Ehnes playing the Spring Sonata, for ex.  

@verdantaudio
Perhaps there's something I do not understand.  I recall sibilance distortion, that is distortion of the "s" and "sh" sound in speaking and singing, in the analog realm.  It arose principally from cartridge mistracking or worn LPs.  However, at least for the last two DACs I have owned ( LKS MH-DA004 and Musetec MH-DA005, neither with US distribution) I don't believe I have ever heard sibilance distortion so described.  I asked some other owners and they agree.  Can it really be that DACs at the level in this thread exhibit this sort of distortion?

If it’s distracting on voice sibilance (it’s distortion), it will without a doubt manifest itself on violin and piano as well.

Play the 4 tracks (5ths a bonus add on) of of Jose Serbrier and the LPO of Rimsky Korsakov’s Scheherazade on RR-89CD the violin should sound like the sweetest sounds of most beautiful woman ever!!!, making eyes at you. If it doesn’t, you’ve got distortion.
Get it on CD only!!
https://referencerecordings.com/recording/rimsky-korsakov-scheherazade/

Cheers George

@melm yes.  It is sibilance where it does not belong, so yes, distortion.  

I appreciate this informative thread.  I wonder if I could seek just a bit of clarification.  You've used the term "sibilance" a number of times in your descriptions.  Sibilance is a natural "s" or "sh" sound that I would expect to hear in anyone's speech or song, recorded or not.  When you use the term, though, do you mean "sibilance distortion"? 

Thank you. 

i too have a weiss dac501 incoming... will be interesting to compare against the chordscaler/tt2 and my fave tube dac audio note 4.1

Nice, intelligent thread, Verdant jumped a lot of hoops in keeping things relevant and in-line, thank you.

I can imagine what turntable owners with multiple arms and cartridge combinations go through for various recordings and preferences!

FWIW, I own a tube-based Dac from Vu Jade Audio aka (bigkidz) 

100% agree with Verdant Audio's thoughts below. I've had the pleasure  of listening to the Weiss in my system for a couple of days so far. 

The Weiss is a stellar high-resolution DAC.  Precise, controlled, neutral - listening to the Weiss, I don't have to suspend much disbelief to feel like I'm in the recording studio. It toes the line of being objective and thoroughly enjoyable. I'm pairing it with a 30w tube/SS pure class A amp (Riviera Audio Labs). It's a beautiful system match.

My other available DAC is a Roon-ready totaldac. It offers an equally alive and engaging sound -- but a different kind of sound. There's a certain je ne sais quoi -  a seductive analogue flavor and goosebump factor. Whatever it is, it's hard to resist. Tres chic.

Both are great. My favorite is whichever one I'm currently listening to.

The current DAC market is both easy and hard. Easy in the sense that there are many excellent DACs that sound different in easy-to-hear ways. But it can be hard to weigh those differences and decide which DAC to buy for keeps.

@jjss49 sorry to hear about your friends in Fort Lee.  We live on a higher floor and our garage is above ground so it was not a huge deal for us luckily.