DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000

Was curious on the Mystique EVO B4B dac so looked it up and adding all options like Lundahl core, Furutech upgrade, Lundahl PSU choke and best shielding it's over 12k. I'm sure it's a wonderful sounding dac but I believe for just over 5k for the Bricasti M3 you would be a happy camper.

I contacted Ben at Mojo Audio.  Apparently there is a lot of interest in the Mojo Audio Mystique DACs, including refurbished V3s (if you can find one to refurbish) and especially the newer EVO range which Ben says is noticeably better sounding.   Kudos to Mojo Audio for supporting their older products.  The level of interest has resulted in some necessary lead time between ordering and receiving a DAC, which is expected.  This success also indicates the design parameters must be effective and is a good thing for Mojo Audio.  I continue to be impressed with what he is doing with the power supply and would not be surprised if I were to like the sound.  
While, for me, cost is not necessarily the overriding factor, I do like to keep things in perspective relative to not only the rest of my system but also to what I really want to spend for this purchase (vs. perhaps a really high quality gravel bicycle), and especially given the temporary nature of digital electronics where everything is the flavor of the day but it seems like the shelf life is only 2 or 3 years (in many cases) before something better comes along.
In the case of the Mystique EVO, it starts at $6K for the base model (which is in my range) but there are multiple options that are a "notable improvement" and can quickly push the price up by up to a couple of $K.  The middle of the range "bang for the buck" (B4B) model is $8K and subject to options as well.  This is well into Totaldac territory so I need to consider whether their products fit my purchase parameters.  I will not rule out the Mojo Audio DACs since the design philosophy seems to be aligned with what I have found to sound good, and also because they are a USA company that supports their former products, but I may take a step back and ask myself, since things sound pretty good now, what do I want to pay to move forward, especially with digital gear, where the cost to performance curve continues to flatten out as technology improves.  

https://www.denafrips.com/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-40-denafrips-terminator-ares-ii-measurements

In his September 2020 Gramophone Dreams, Herb Reichert reported on two D/A processors from Chinese manufacturer Denafrips: their flagship Terminator, which costs $4498,

That would be a question for Ben.  Like to hear from him on this.  

@grannyring Hey Bill, do you know why it's desirable to have class a/b opamps on the dac output (as in the Mojo Evo)?

After reading so much about the benefits of class a in amplifier design, I have trouble figuring out why a/b would be more desirable on the i/v stage of the dac? Not criticising at all, just trying to understand the design decision...

Agree with @tvad the M3 is a very even full sounding dac. If you are looking for more bottom end or softening of the top end (my Lampi Big 6 did that) look elsewhere. 

@mitch2 
That's interesting. I ran both of those DAC's through a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp.
That's how I was able to A/B them in real time. They sound very similar other than the differences I listed.
But thin sounding? Far from it.

I hope to be understood right...

When we change an electronic component, amp,dac or speakers, we hear a difference in many aspect of S.Q.

Having said that i can say what i want to say and being understood...

In my actual audio system i dont have the impression that nothing is lacking much and more than that the music sound natural and my impression is that my speakers, dac, and amp. has NO sound of their own, no color, no emphasis on certain range of frequencies, and more important the instrument timbre sound right....

For sure my audio system has his personality so to speak, but when his personnality disapear for me and only the music is there the goal is reached....

The reason for that miracles is not coming from my choice of dac only, or amplifier, or speakers, however good they are; the reason is a rightful mechanical,electrical and acoustical embedding....

Then before throwing too much money in upgrade think about vibration control, decreasing the house noise floor, and controlling the acoustical dimension of your room.... If not, like said an acoustical engineer, no speakers can beat the room anyway; i will add no amplifier and no dac can defeat bad embeddings of the audio system either..

If you want to upgrade it must be for the good reason...

Myself i dont want, it is no more necessary...... :)

I highly recommend the MSB Analog DAC with the separate power supply. Pricey when new, probably in your price range now, used.  I use it with the updated Renderer 2 module.  Sounds great, and handles DSD and MQA, and with the volume control, I no longer use a preamp either (although I know some people like to keep a preamp in the mix).

@oldschool1948 Ha. For me your comment is a perfect example of the point made by @jriggy

I’ve had both the Directstream and Audio Mirror in my system for extended periods and have come to the exact opposite conclusion.

In the end you just have to hear them in your own system.

All these DACs will give a different end sound out different systems, as most DACs I’ve heard have a frequency spectrum balance/presentation of their own. One more bottom end, one more top end, one having fuller mids or one having a slight dip in the upper mids/lower treble for smoothness or ‘no fatigue’. So if your system already has a slight beefy low end from preamp, amp or even room, the DAC with slight bit more low end may take you in the wrong direction..
I suppose this is true with every piece in a system...but I feel more DACs should strive to be even and linear, with little to no dips or humps in its frequency response and let us do all our personal ‘coloring’ in preamp, amp or speakers... The only one I’ve seen mentioned to be like this so far is the Mojo, as Grannyring has stated this detail here and similar in the EVO thread.. I’m sure there must be other DACs with this evenhanded approach, right?
I also wish more DACs had a dang vol control. The May comes with vol buttons on the remote that are not functional...yet? Makes me wonder if vol control function will be added to it (or a second edition May) in the future.

I just got the Hugo M Scaler and the chord Quest  it will give you sound 16 time better then cd you can get the 2 for $6000.00
I did not see any negative  review on those 2 the sound is unbelievable


extends its upscaling performance to 768kHz (from 96kHz input data) for our dual-BNC-input DACs: Qutest,

@rushfan71 , this is why it is so important to hear stuff for yourself.  Although you and a couple of reviewers indicate the Morpheus may have a touch more meat on the bones than the Adagio or Pavane, I have spoken with several others who have indicated they hear very little if any difference between the Morpheus and the Adagio.  I have heard from a couple of people, and from Granny's post below, that the Morpheus is thin sounding, and from one industry insider who recommends using a preamp or buffer with either the Morpheus or the two top Metrum DACs. 
My personal finding with both the Pavane and Adagio (both of which I have owned) is that they have good tone and detail but need a preamp or buffer to achieve the level of body I enjoy. I am hoping to find something with a similar level of tone, detail, and naturalness, but with a bit more body and weight.  It seems the Bricasti M3, Holo May KTE, and Mojo Mystique may provide this and also possibly the Rockna Wavelight and Terminator.   

I went from an Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE DAC to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC.  While the Tubadour is a very, very good DAC, the DirectStream DAC sounds closer to my analog rig; it is also smoother with more detail.  

Mitch

You say you like the natural sound of R2R DACs and you are looking for one in the $5K - $7K range?
You have exactly that in the Adagio.
I have the Pavane, same as the Adagio w/out the volume control.

I had the Sonnet Morpheus for a while and A/B it with the Pavane feeding both with a Metrum Ambre streamer.
Very close but the Morpheus had a little more meat on the bones and more of a center image focus.
It's only $3500 because it uses a less expensive case than the Metrum's.

BTW. Sonnet is Metrum's former owner/engineers current company. The Morpheus is Cees Ruetenburg next version of his R2R design found in your Adagio and my Pavane.
I'll tell you he is currently working on the next design which is supposed to be a big step up.
FWIW.

Not sure what difference you're looking for. OCD HiFi channel guy on you tube does a DAC shootout where you can hear the same tracks through the Adagio and the Terminator as well as several others. Rockna might be one if I remember correctly.

Happy hunting

Keep in mind Ben has never claimed his past dacs were upgradable.  He has really separated out the various parts of the Evo dac so they can be swapped out for new boards and/or parts. Look closely at the pics to see this. 

I personally upgraded my Mystique 3 to an Evo by upgrading chokes, USB card, wiring, opamps, grounding and  shielding. It was a royal pain in the rear.  Very difficult and a darn near impossible task. After seeing what he did to change that in the Evo it is a completely different task and upgrading will be much easier. 

@grannyring , I heard those same comments about the Morpheus relative to the Pavane and Adagio, although the reviewers did not seem to think so.  I sometimes wonder about reviews but have previously found Srajan at 6moons to be reliable and mostly aligned with what I hear.
I plan to reach out to Ben and see where that leads me.

@grannyring I may have purchased his v3, as the seller was from MN :)

We've discussed the DAC recently and he was telling me how it has been tough for him to find a replacement for it...   I'm certainly very happy with it!

@mitch2 He really did not like the Sonnet. Lacked body and weight. Not enough bass and again too electronic sounding vs his time with the Mojo. He thought the Sonnet sounded weak and “fragile” vs the solidity, ease, control and foundation sonically of the Mojo.

@cal3713 , yeah the Totaldac measurements are a bit confusing but there are so many folks who like how they sound.  I will look into whether any of the Mojo DACs have been critically measured as I would be curious to see how they measure.  The Holo May has been measured by two publications and seems to have done well.  It is certainly nice when measurements and sonics align, but it does not occur in every case and for me it is not absolutely necessary as long as I like the sonics.

@grannyring , everybody says their gear is "upgradable" but the reality is that in this hobby I have heard that more than seen it.  In many cases the new technologies force changes that are not retrofittable.  In other cases, it simply doesn't make economic sense.  One thing for sure, Ben's 45 day trial period is generous and if I decide to take advantage of that I will be committed to purchase except in the event the sonics simply don't match my preferences.  I would be interested in what your friend thinks of his Morpheus.  I am still not convinced it is a better sounding DAC than the two upper end Metrum DACs, based on reports from people who have owned both and also considering the less robust power supply and reduced level of isolation compared to the Pavane L3 and Adagio.  I am in a good position of having a pretty good sounding set-up currently so can afford to be patient as I search for something better and a bit different.

@jgoldrick , thank you for the additional information on Totaldac. 

Purchase a Lyngdorf DAC. They throw in my favorite amplifier with it for FREE! https://lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com/lyngdorf-tdai-3400/Seriously, I am also digitally inclined as apparently you are. I went through an number of Tube/Class A/Class AB/ amps with a number of DAC combinations. I found nothing as good as the Lyngdorf. And the Lyngdorf also met or exceed all competition with analog inputs too. Which was a total surprise. But, to each their own. Just a different path to suggest.

So Funny. He has tried so many dacs after selling his Mojo. All of them came up short by a long way according to him. He kept telling me he made a big mistake selling it. He just had to see if there was something better 😊. Oh my!

He trialed a very costly Metronome dac, Lampi, Terminator, Sonnet, Audio Mirror maxed out and perhaps another one and none of them pleased him like your Mojo 👍.

He is getting his Evo tomorrow. He will be happy and has learned his lesson.

I doubt the Mojo ever leaves his home for any reason. Ha!

@grannyring You got it!  Should have known we were both talking about the same person. I forgot about him mentioning the Sonnet.

And perhaps out of your range, but if you're really thinking about Totaldac, there's an ad up for a d1-7 on the devialet chat sales page. It's an old ad from a dealer (I searched the username to see if it was legit), but is still available for ~€8000. I looked into it and even contacted the seller, but got scared off by the ASR TD measurements. I don't agree with their raw measurement perspective, but some of the TD outcomes were really troublesome.

@cal3713 Is your acquaintance in the northern MN area?   

An agon audio acquaintance of mine just bought a new MOJO Evo.  I think after we've both had our units for a couple months we're going to do a temporary swap. Will allow both of us to compare the Evo and Holo Mays in our systems. Should be informative.

@mitch2 The buying experience went well.  I used paypal.  Vincent sent me a link to pay.  Took about 3 weeks to get?  Around that, pretty quick all in all.  My Salk speakers took just under 6 months, so I was prepared to wait some.
Vincent has answered any questions I have had (not many) within one business day and I have not had any reason for support. 
I haven't even tried the USB output yet as I have a Singxer SU-1 KTE edition that I use with AES. But I did get the USB cable.  Someday I will try it.
I figure, like you mentioned, I can get this now, then upgrade later for the difference in model costs plus the $350 fee.  $6k ain't no chicken feed to me, so maybe in a few years when I get the itch again I can swing $3k to upgrade to a higher model and any software updates.

A good audio friend of mine had the new Sonnet Digital Audio Morpheus and well as the latest Denafrips Terminator with DSP board in his home. He also owned the Mojo Mystique 3. He felt both dacs were rather electronic sounding compared to the Mojo. After living with the Mojo in his system for a year he simply could not enjoy music nearly as much with the other two dacs. He just purchased the new Evo.

He was very disappointed with the Terminator saying the upper mids and highs were too forced and not natural sounding like the Mojo. Hyper detail was there with the Terminator, but not his cup of tea. This is most likely more a comment on how good the Mojo is as opposed to how disappointing the Terminator was to him.

Hello,
You need to demo all of this. You are talking about thousands of dollars. You may love or dislike R2R DAC like Denifrips or the same of a chip based DAC. First figure out weather you prefer Honda (R2R) or Toyota (Chip based).Next go as high price as you can go. From what I’ve read on these forums price typically follows tech or power. Denifrips doubles power and tech (R2R) count as you go up. Make sure it has the amount and style of connections you want to go with your gear. Can it decipher your preferences. Does it do DSD or MQA? Is this it for a long time or are you going to get a better DAC next year. If you can wait and save up more money does it put you at the next level of DAC. Just like that Honda or Toyota you lose money as soon as you buy it new. Finally , a tried and true test of a piece of equipment. How many are for sale used. If no body appears to want to let this unit go it might be incredible. If there are a lot for sale then there is probably a reason why. Most people want to keep there Toyota Tacoma or they sell them used for top dollar.

@mitch2  - agree with everything you say about the importance of power sections - and Ben does a great job there.   The EVO weights 29 pounds!  Definitely trial the EVO if you can.  

PM me if you live in Florida - maybe we can connect.  I'm bringing my EVO to another Agon member's home in Palm Beach this weekend so he can give it a listen.  He runs an Antipodes DX like you.  

Actually Ben does not change his dacs nearly as much as most of the industry. The good news is his Evo is easily upgraded and modular in terms of upgrading to any future improvements Ben may offer. This is a big departure from his past builds.

I upgraded my Mojo Mystique with the Lundhal chokes and the improvement was just wonderful. I strongly suggest this upgrade in terms of the overall sonic impact of Ben’s various upgrade options.

The sound of the Mojo dac is a distinct departure from the pretty much ubiquitous electronic dac sound I hear in so many high end dacs. The Mojo sounds like music. Pure and simple. No part of the sound spectrum is exaggerated or out of place no matter how loud your music plays. In fact, this dac is so effortless and right sounding that the music swells and expands when the volume is turned up and one never gets the sense that it is “loud”. It has a solidity of sound that is built from the bottom up if you will. Just so full, solid, substantial and meaty. The tone is absolutely beautiful. Anyway, I love his design and dac.

I'm also a big fan of the Mojo Mystique!   I recently sold my Bricasti M3 and have replaced it with a Mojo Mystique v3 Balanced.

grannyring's statement of "natural and right sounding" is right on the mark from my perspective; I find it extremely musical, and also offers great dynamics and punch.   The Evo is a step up from what I have...

I have just ordered a Bricasti M5 to pair with the Mojo.

@jgoldrick , Thanks for reminding me about Totaldac, which has been on my list. Everything I read about how they sound seems that one of their DACs would be perfect for me but man, they are expensive. OTOH, their gear holds its value and their basic ladder DAC design has been pretty stable, which I like. Since I run my system balanced, the model I would want most would be the Totaldac Dual, which I believe now equates to their d1-six model. However, I can run a single-ended DAC into my preamp/buffer, which can then output a balanced signal to my amplifiers without penalty since the conversion is done through a pair of really expensive and high quality Lundahl transformers, so the model you have would still work for me. Regarding your experience with Totaldac, are you in the USA and, if so, how was your buying experience and how do you view the level of support available?

@veroguy , What I like about the Mojo Mystique EVO is the level of attention Ben has paid to the power supply. My SMc Audio preamp/buffer uses an expensive choke power supply and I know those are not cheap to implement but can be quite helpful to power regulation and quietness. I am a big power supply guy since my experience is that excellent attention paid to the power supply equates to good sound. This is one reason I sometimes find it hard to purchase gear further down in a manufacturer’s line, particularly if they have cut costs by cheapening the power supply. One apprehension I have with the Mojo DACs is that his gear has been sort of Lamizator’ish in that it seems to often change, which affects resale value. On the other hand, I know Ben is a great guy to deal with as he helped me get into media-less audio with my original Mojo Mac mini server. Also, I always appreciate buying my gear Made in the USA, when possible. I would really like to hear at least his B4B Evo DAC in my system and the 45-day trial period he offers is hard to argue with so I will give this one more consideration.

PS audio Direct Stream they release software updates that keep your equipment current and up to date

Yes the Mojo Mystique Evo is the top of list. This dac simply has to be heard to be believed. Won’t find a more natural and right sounding dac for any amount of money.  Ben offers a trial period so give it a listen. I suggest adding the Lundhal AM chokes for the analog board. 

A 2nd recommendation to check out the Mojo Audio Mystique EVO dac.  R2R, $6k for base model that can be upgraded in a lot of ways.  Good review here:

https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2020/5/21/sigmanmojoevodac

I've owned it for a couple months.  Loving it.

Can we merge this with the cable thread and ask why a DAC is so expensive? It is after all just a chip.

Surely you jest!

J.Chip

I would definitely considered a professional built Auto Note Kit (ANK) DAC either their 4.1 or 5.1 -- great sound - great value - 

I was at your place few months ago.  I had a Metrum Onyx.  I researched basically the same models.  I got the Totaldac core d1, which is in your price range.  I wanted NOS R2R.  I figured I did not want to put much towards DSD as that takes out the NOS R2R.  No regrets, wonderful sounding.  Very clear, good bass and highs, good imaging and soundstage.

Aqua La Voce or La Scala might be up your alley and bracket your budget. They are R2R/FPGA DACs. I have no actual experience with them, but find the implementation and approach intriguing. Some day.

@wdguru I built my own amps (from Nelson Pass designed boards), and as I've refined them, I've directly seen the impact of moving from stereo to a dual mono design, putting the PS into a separate chassis, replacing copper with solid core silver wire, and using high quality film caps (in my preamp). The fact that the Holo May also incorporates all these features while also using r2r decoding as in my well-loved Audio Mirror and a pure class A amplification stage as in all my other equipment made it very attractive. It is very rare to find that many of my "key" features in a component, regardless of price. I'm hopeful I'll be rewarded with the choice.

I do like the Audio Note Dac3/4, Ear dac ( is great!!) Chord, Metronome C6 (gorgeous !!) 

Mojo Audio is another possibility to look at. Models from 5-12k. All using analog devices r2r modules and choke filtered independent power supplies.

I have a Metrum Ambre feeding AES. to a T+A DAC8DSD. It’s a mindscrambler 

Just ordered the Holo May Kitsune. I talked to a friend who has listened to the Lampizator, Denafrips and the Holo and the winner is the Holo for sound quality. You can also buy it in the USA and it comes with a remote. Lead time is about five weeks. I could go on but it sounds like you have already done some research so I won't bore you with more details. 

Bifrost 2!!!!!!! You can't go wrong and will stand up to any DAC.

The Bifrost 2 is pretty good but I think the Benchmark DAC3 had a bit more depth, though it wasn’t a huge difference. 

In that price range and in non oversampling with tube stage i think you should definitely take a good look at 
Audio Note DAC 4.1x 
Or SW1X DAC III or IV
I have the audio jote dac 4.1x and really enjoy it.
Both of these dac's share the same design philosophy 
Cheers

Bricasti m3. I have listened to a lot of dacs, all the chords, dcs, audio research. The dcs was the best to my ears but very expensive. Bricasti m3 was so close to the dcs that it was hard to tell the difference. I thought the chord sounded harsh and sometimes had a 'glare ' to it. I was listening to the hugo with the upsampler.

@tvad Whoops, yes, the M3. I might have bought the one on usam if it already had the streamer board. Congrats on the new dac and thanks for the details. I read about some people preferring it to the M1SE even...