@mitch2 curious on your thoughts with the Mystique V3? Since it was used should be broken-in. Is it what you were hoping?
DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000
What are the current top DAC choices in the approximately $5-$7K price range (new or used) that I should look at as possible upgrades to my current Metrum Adagio?
Having an on-board volume control is not a factor as I can operate my system either way. If I wanted to spend more I would look at Totaldac, Rockna Wavedream Signature, or one of the other top-end contenders, but I selected the price range to achieve a sound quality that is consistent with the rest of my system and because I don't want to spend more due to the still evolving nature of digital technology. I do like the more natural sound
(to my ears)
of NOS R2R DACs. So far, I have considered the three below, but none seem to be a slam-dunk upgrade from the Adagio, which still sounds pretty good in my system. The decision is complicated by having to "buy to try" so that I can hear one in my system. Maybe now is not the time for an upgrade. Any thoughts?
- Denafrips Terminator w/DSP board - Reportedly has the full body/dense tone type of sound I like, but also has a high'ish output impedance
- Holo May KTE - Reportedly measures great for an R2R DAC and has strong reviews
- Rockna Wavelight - Some reviewers like it but others put it in the middle of the pack for the price
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Thanks for the support! We are really busy in this holiday seasons. Most of our stock ran out. We decided to roll out preorder basis for products that are backordered. Do check it out! Happy holidays! Cheers, Alvin Chee www.vinshineaudio.com |
Call me old fashioned or eccentric, I use Altmann Attraction DAC with the matching BYOB amp, both powered by 12V LiFePo4 fast response batteries. The sound could not be better, cleaner both at low and high freq.'s on my Living Voice speakers (which I installed after getting rid of my Zu Druid IVs). Very happy. |
@ddafoe Please do keep updating as you add the EtherREGEN. I've been eyeing the M5 and you've got me even more interested. @mitch2 Congrats on the Evo. Really looking to hearing your impressions. And if anyone is interested in the M3, there's one with a built in streamer up on usam for 4k. Still waiting on my Holo May... |
@facten - I definitely agree with your recommendation to contact Ben directly as he is quite helpful, but I can share that I did contact him and as of a week ago he had 6 people on a pre-paid waiting list to receive a factory reconditioned Mystique V3 so it must be a popular option. I was just lucky to stumble across a V3 listed by a private seller and glad I was ready to respond quickly to purchase it. |
With my Pi (running Roon) based SPDIF streamer, I definitely preferred the Mystique over the M3 in my system. Adding the M5 to the Mystique using the same SPDIF cable (Shunyata Anaconda ZTRON) brought it to a whole another level; I'm now kicking myself for not upgrading streamers years ago. The V3/M5 combo (assuming you can find a used Mystique V3) actually cost me less than the M3 with the integrated streamer would have. That being said, I was told by Bricasti and forum members that the M3 sounds its best with the integrated streamer, so assuming the M5 bump is the same for both DACs, plus add in the extra for the integrated solution, and yea I would now like to have that M3 in my system to compare. If it is simply a case of magnifying the strengths of each DAC, I likely would still prefer the V3, but I can't say for sure without hearing both combos. I'm truly shocked by the difference adding the M5 made. Being able to try the USB input on the V3 vs SPDIF is a nice bonus too. I also have an Anaconda AES cable and actually went to hook it up when I got the M5 and realized the V3 doesn't have an AES input :) Maybe someday I'll get an EVO which looks to have AES... I have an etherREGEN coming tomorrow to feed the M5, and am able to try it both with fiber and copper so that should be an interesting test. I'm now a strong believer of handling your digital signal with the utmost care :) |
@mitch2, congrats on the Mystique V3 balanced! That is exactly what I purchased a few months ago; it will be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. I'm using a Bricasti M5 with Roon to feed it's SPDIF input. I found its sound quality jumped significantly after upgrading my SPDIF streamer to the Bricasti. I've just ordered a Luna Orange USB cable to try with it, so I'm not sure which of those two inputs I'll ultimately prefer. |
@rsf507 - Mystique V3 with balanced outputs, it arrives tomorrow from an excellent seller (super fast ship) over on USAM who upgraded to an MSB. I am really curious the hear what all the rave reviews are about and how it compares to my Adagio. I have not seen any EVO level Mystiques for sale on the used market yet. The question of which input to use is interesting since my Ambre endpoint doesn’t have a USB output, but it does have S/PDIF and optical. If I want to use the USB input, then I need to give up the advantages of using a Roon endpoint and connect the Mystique directly to my Antipodes DX L3 server, or purchase something like the SOtM trio that I used to own. I connect the Adagio to the Ambre using I2S. |
Maybe you don't have to spend as much as you think. Here's a review form over at Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile) that's done by a recording engineer who used his own recordings for evaluation: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-denafrips-pontus-dac-r966/ All the best, Nonoise |
Hi https://forum.audiogon.com/users/mitch2. Sure. I have the KTE edition. I upgraded from the Spring Level 3 (and actually kept that one, put it into my HT system for when I listen to 2 channel there). I find the May to be detailed, revealing, dynamic as you’d want for accurate reproduction, but with an analog-ish beauty to it. Non-fatiguing, just a constant joy to listen to. I really find it to be the best of both worlds - an analog sound (but without the rolloffs) from digital media. I got back into vinyl a couple of years ago, and now kinda regret it as I can get that sound from crappy low-res tracks, CD rips, and high res tracks (better as more bits are available of course) but it all sounds great. I have my 2 channel (with the May) in my home office, and have it on when working when possible etc. But my attention is very frequently drawn to the sound system as realistic sounds emanate from it - "oh, I guess I have Miles Davis in my home office with me now". Hope that helps. |
SOtM boxes are out because I already have many "boxes" from a cassette player, TT to monoblocks. I had to modify my rack a couple of times to accommodate these boxes. Most likely I'll go for GAIA to be future proof and to avoid any modification of my custom made server. GAIA has many input/output connectors and even both i2s types. My friend has done modifications to both hardware and software of Ambre. He used sd card to flash Ambre. |
If you can live with the boxes, you can sometimes find all three SOtM Ultra units (including the switching PS, which is pretty good) being sold at a good price. They did sound good but in a full-bodied sort of way with maybe a smidgen less resolution than from the Ambre. Both were grainless and musical. It was really a pretty close comparison with the Ambre, and I owned both units at the same time. The Ambre was just a little more dynamic and hard-hitting and the SOtM a touch richer sounding. However, they were so close I chose to keep the Ambre because it is only one box and because it dropped Roon less often (from seldom for the SOtM unit to pretty much never for the Ambre) and was easier to restart after powering down. The GAIA looks like a nice unit. BTW, how did your friend modify the Ambre and in what ways did the modification make the Ambre sound better, if you can share? |
Amber seems an obvious choice but I do not want Roon. One of my friends is using modded Amber with great success. I have built a computer audio transport in a Streacom FC10 chassis, powered by HDPlex200 LPS and OS is APL4. I have installed Cantata and use window10 to remotely control my transport. This works very well for me. But the problem is the USB input of Adagio which I want to avoid. U12 is only temporary till better quality GAIA or something similar is added. U16 has good reviews but GAIA has better specs on paper. SOtM is out due to the hassle of multiple boxes and their power supplies. Audio-gd DI-20HE is also out because of its i2s connector being RJ45. |
In my world, I2S out of the Ambre has been the best sounding input into the Adagio, followed by AES/EBU, with S/PDIF and USB being less desirable. To my ears, using Ethernet from the Roon Core into the Endpoint (i.e., the Metrum Ambre), and having no USB interfaces in the signal chain has been a sonic improvement - and yes, I did try some pretty good cables (i.e., Totaldac and Curious) as well as all the usual suspects in the world of small box USB do-dads. Since I also own a Jade, I did pre register for the DAC3 upgrade but wasn’t clear whether that upgrade also affected the Adagio/Pavane, although I let them know I own both. I have no experience with the Gustard U12 but I see it is a USB (input) converter so I assume your source is a computer. If you are able to use a direct Ethernet connection, the Ambre works great and was sonically comparable when I owned both it and the SOtM Ultra trifecta (slight differences but both units sounded good). The I2S output connector from the Gustard uses HDMI so you will need to adapt that to RJ45. Hopefully the Gustard or Metrum folks can help you with the wiring. Here is a review of the Gustard U12 with measurements, in case you have not seen it. BTW, if you heard positive improvements by using the Gustard U12, the Denafrips GAIA should perform very well for you since it looks like a serious piece of gear and quite versitile. |
Adagio/Pavane is a beautiful sounding DAC and it's a keeper for a longer time. I heard Cees is developing a new DAC for about 10K and we also know that his DACs are modular. You must have heard about their plan of upgrading Jade/Onyx to the levels of Adagio/Pavane. So Cees might think of upgrading the current Adagio/Pavane to the next level by changing the module. Wishful thinking but you never know. The addition of Marantz SA10 a few months back made me realize that something is wrong with the USB input of my Adagio. So I bought a used Gustard U12 to use the AES input of Adagio. Results were very surprising honestly. So now I plan to add Denafrips GAIA (or at least Hermes) and install the i2s module in Adagio to use i2s out of GAIA. Earlier I was thinking of buying either of Aurender N10, SOtM trifecta, Lumin U1, or dCS network bridge. So just a trial of U12 has saved me more than $4000. |
@rsjaurr One thing you said rings true for me and makes me reconsider my goals: I highly doubt if any other DAC can give you better sound in an almost similar price range.I am starting to wonder whether buying something else will only show me how good I have it currently with the Adagio. I want to stay with R2R so the Holo May KTE and the Mystique will stay on my list of DACs to satisfy my curiosity, and of course I would jump at a good deal on a used Totaldac. However, another consideration is the specific implementation. When I read about people who say so and so DAC is better than another DAC, I wonder about their implementation. For example, the USB input and RCA outputs on the Adagio/Pavane are not supposed to sound as good as the I2S input and balanced outputs (both of which I use). The rest of my digital chain (Ethernet/Bonn switch/TP Link Fiber Optic converters/Ethernet into the DX/Ethernet into the Metrum Ambre/I2S into the Adagio/then balanced outputs) should optimize the sound of the Adagio. Regarding preamps, I have owned the Lamm LL2 Deluxe, NAT Symetrical, CAT Ultimate MkII, and other pretty good tubed linestages, and none of those gave me as much satisfaction as my current SMc preamp. Thank you for the reminder that the Adagio is a pretty good DAC. |
this is why it is so important to hear stuff for yourself. Although you and a couple of reviewers indicate the Morpheus may have a touch more meat on the bones than the Adagio or Pavane, I have spoken with several others who have indicated they hear very little if any difference between the Morpheus and the Adagio. I have heard from a couple of people, and from Granny's post below, that the Morpheus is thin sounding, and from one industry insider who recommends using a preamp or buffer with either the Morpheus or the two top Metrum DACs. @mitch2 I also own Adagio since 2018 and used to follow your posts. Initially, i also found its sound to be a little dull and thin. Then after a year, I got hold of EAR868 tube amp and now the sound has become more full-bodied and a little more transparent. Maybe you need to consider changing/adding a tube preamp even for a few days to see if there is any change in the sound. I highly doubt if any other DAC can give you better sound in an almost similar price range. |
PS Audio has a well regarded trial period for their Direct Stream DAC. Updateable FPGA, Years old review. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-page-2 |
Aqua La Voce or La Scala, owned a Yggdrasil before I had a La Voce a significant step forward in terms of timbres realism... La Scala is even better but closer to your higher price range, I use it in a secondary system as my reference DAC is a DCS Vivaldi, those products are up there regardless of price... do yourself a favour and go listen |
@mitch2 Your choice, an ldr or discrete resistors (.5% vs .1% max thd respectively). Each module is $50 and you can swap them out at will. My preamp builder tried both and liked both. Described the ldr as more organic and the resistor module as more transparent. Said neither were a compromise vs his standard TKD pot. Both modules also support 10db in balance control. In the case of the ldr, your signal path only sees a single resistor. My builder said he couldn't use a khozmo because it produces too much noise to be in the same chassis as the dht tubes, but couldn't measure or hear any from the Tortuga. This is his first time using one. All sounds like a pretty promising solution to me. Tough to get quality remote VC and balance out there. |
@cal3713 Thanks for the suggestion. Does that use their LDR unit or something else? I have been looking at Khozmo and Steve McCormack believes they will work for me. Khozmo Shunt |
@dgarretson Not sure if this is indicative of the house sound changing or not, but the new lampizator amber 3 definitely doesn’t sound syrupy. Was very lively in my system. Too bright and incisive for my tastes (& system synergy) actually. Also, just looked up your esoteric and it looks amazing. If you do find a dac that bests it please do report back. |
@mitch2 Sounds like maybe you've already located it, but if not you might consider the Tortuga epot.v3 mini. It's designed to screw into a chassis through the same hole as a standard volume control pot and add remote volume control (ldr or discrete resistors). I just had one added to my DHT preamp. They're reasonable and sound great according to many. https://tortugaaudio.com/products/diy-preamp-components/electronic-stepped-attenuator-epot-v3-mini/ |
@grannyring So interesting, after so many recent innovations in formats and multiples of sampling rates, to be drawn back to an non-oversampling R2R DAC. I’m looking at this from the perspective of an Esoteric K-01X, which has a fine DAC section at a higher price point, but I no longer spin discs. Never been a Lampi fan, which IMO always sounded syrupy. Apart from great sound, the K-01X is heroically built to a fit and finish well above Mojo--except that Mojo, in addition to its vintage NOS chip, dangles intriguing cottage industry cues like Lundahl amorphous trannies, graphene, ERS, 2575 nude resistors, etc. I’ve learned through DIY that these do make a difference, and you won’t find them in TOTL mainstream offers, probably owing to cost of goods. They do beckon. BTW, from the PCB photos it looks like the Mojo is not a fully balanced design, and uses a SE-to-balanced converter. Not a deal killer, but a compromise. |
@dgarretson. I get your statement. I thought the same having come off the DSD Lampizator Amber 3 with upgrades/mods. Never thought about it again once I heard how much better all my rips and streaming sounded with the Evo. Don’t miss DSD and upsampling in the least. On the Mojo it all sounds better. I am now solidly in the camp that NOS dacs, when done right, simply sound more real, natural and musical. |
The Mojo Mystique Evo Pro sure looks interesting, but with 500+ burned SACDs and DSD128 vinyl rips, I just can’t face the notion of being limited to PCM. I suppose Roon could be used to downsample DSD to 24/196, but that seems like a step backward. On the other hand, Terminator+ with GAIA and clocklink is thoroughly up to date. Has anybody compared these top current versions from Mojo and Denafrips? They are similarly priced at $11-13K. |
Used Chord DAVE. (No need for an Mscaler with this.)If you are into DSD files or SACDs or like a really deep sense of detail (and a system that can handle some soaring highs), look for an EMM labs DAC or high-end CD player with DAC capablity. (Again, you will need to buy an EMM piece on the used market in the price range mentioned.) |
Thanks for all the suggestions. I strongly considered quite a few of the recommendations but in the end, and without the ability to hear these, I believe the Holo May KTE is the DAC I need to try. It has pretty much everything I am looking for especially considering I have come to appreciate the sound of R2R NOS type DACs. The Holo May KTE has a lot of features I was looking for, including a dual mono layout, huge power supply in a separate enclosure, I2S input, balanced outputs, decent sized display, and the ability to process PCM and DSD to high sampling rates. The 40 pound weight indicates a solid build quality. The DAC measurements reported by John Atkinson at Stereophile and by atomicbob on the Super Best Audio Friends site were very good and the print reviews so far indicate the DAC is very musical sounding. One thing the May doesn't do that I was sort of looking for is control volume but I can simply reengage the volume control in my SMc Audio preamp that I have continued to use as a buffer with my Metrum Ambre DAC that does control volume. I have been working with SMc on how to replace the Shallco switch with another option that can be remote controlled and can provide a display. I guess I will work on that project while I am waiting for the Holo Audio people to build my DAC. The main other contenders I would have liked to have heard were the Mojo Mystique EVO (any level), Mola Mola Tambaqui, Bricasti M3, and Weiss 501. Of those, I probably had the most interest in the Mystique since it is an R2R DAC, but the others are all well known, all provide more features than the Mojo DAC, and are all reported to sound excellent. Thanks again for all the suggestions. |
While it doesn’t show as an option in the drop down box selection, it is stated as an option in the product detail narrative " Our Mystique EVO digital-to-analog converter converts PCM format files up to 24-bit 192KHz via Femto clocked USB, coaxial S/PDIF, or balanced AES. Optional BNC and TosLink optical available" I have the base EVO , extremely happy with its sound and build/operation |
I checked out the Mojo Audio Mystique (Evo). It look great. But I want an optical input so that I can connect my TV Audio out to my two channel system. At that list price the Mola Mola Tambaqui is very competitive. Also the Tambaqui Streams as well as DAC so my Nucleus can reside in another room with near my Modem. |
I found the M3 to sound very nice in my system (Sim740P+Pass250.8+SpendorD9) but if the preferred sound is '
like the more natural sound (to my ears) of NOS R2R DACs' I personally didn't find the M3 to offer that compared to the Mystique v3; assuming the Evo is another step up from the v3 then I would question the need to upgrade the Evo to start; at least if comparing it to the M3. Of the DACs I've tried at home I found the M3 to offer a similar sound if not more modern to the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 which I tried years ago when it was the hot DAC to have. I ended up selling it for the slightly less resolving Sim380DSD, but one I thought offered a more analog like 'meat on the bones' style of sound. I thought the M3 took dynamics and detail to another level over the 380DSD but I personally found it offered a slightly lean presentation. I also tried the latest version of the RME ADI and found that sound signature more inline with the M3 than the M3 is with the Mystique. The M3's analogue out is excellent though, and when fed direct into my Pass amp came very close to with my pre (which is ~2x the M3's price) so from that perspective it is a bargain. Add $1K at initial purchase time for the streamer and that also is a bargain, as I just paid way more than that for the M5 to mate with the v3. So for the M3's price I think it certainly offers all around good value, I personally think it is just a question of the type of sound one is looking for... |
