DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000

mahgister wrote

Sound in an abstract way is equally wave or bits, but in a concrete room sound is mostly only specific space and waves for specific ears, not bits....

You are certainly correct about that!

I have installed bass traps in the front wall corners and acoustic panels along the walls to tame treble reflections. When I am seriously listening, I cover the big screen TV with a blanket.

I have not spent the time to understand and analyze noise in the electric line and what are the typical ways to address this.

Another area I want to understand better is the relationship between the DAC output impedance relative to the preamp input impedance, and how much of that can you hear...

While the Theta DAC is better in terms of mids, highs and soundstage depth than my old Hegel HD25 DAC; the Hegel mid bass was better. That sort of indicates to me that I should continue to experiment with DACs.

I also want to experiment with balanced outputs to the preamp from the Theta, which I believe is fully balanced. I have read taking advantage of that will improve the sound.

As I reread this thread, the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC looks interesting. Just so many good reviews and I appreciate the design philosophy. Right now they have a refurbished V3 balanced for $4K with two year warranty.

The only problem with balanced is the need to change from my CJ 17LS2 preamp, which is single ended only, and why I am contemplating a Don Sachs preamp. Don and I have been trading emails and he assures me that his preamp will seem like a veil has been lifted from my speakers compared the CJ. He seems like a straight forward person who shares what he believes and is willing to challenge his customers.

Thanks for listening!

Dsper .

@mitch2 I was planning on buying the AudioByte VOX | ZAP | HUB for $6K but my new Krell integrated has a built-in DAC (no choice for me). So I am not going to get the AudioByte in the near term. You should check it out.

I was also considering the Holo May, T2+, and the Wavelight but the AudioByte stack just impressed the heck out of me with the tech inside it. You can also use the AudioByte firmware to tailor the sound.  Currently there is only 1 flavor of the firmware, 2 more are planned and each will have a different sonic signature. Same guys as Rockna.

I tried to live with the ASR darling Topping D90 for more than a month. Detailed, sharp, uninvolving, non-musical. Period. 

@dsper I also wouldn't paint every ESS dac with that same brush the Matrix X-Sabre Pro I tried has a top of the line ESS chip and wasn't bright or fatiguing at all.  Very smooth actually.

I continue to enjoy my Theta ProBasic III

This is already a good dac..... i think that perhaps you would better do to invest more time, and less money in the controls of your room acoustic, and in the cleaning of the electrical noise floor of your house and perhaps even in the controls of vibrations from the speakers...

But audiophile experience is for me synonymus with a controlled acoustic, not with the choice of a dac mainly....

It is only my very limited experience but very convincing one for me....

My actual dac sound limited in my non controlled room and is not the same at all in my new controlled room.... The dac has not changed a bit, my evaluation of it has.....Upgrading it then seems pointless now for me ....


Sound in an abstract way is equally wave or bits, but in a concrete room sound is mostly only specific space and waves for specific ears, not bits....

 And at the end you will be better prepared to upgrade if necessary  after an acoustical optimal installation...Or even after an electrical grid controls, etc

Thanks for sharing your experiences and comments. They have restored my faith in audiophiles and I will reread this thread in a more accepting manner to learn more!

Have been thinking about a new DAC and was wondering if $6,000 gets a lot more than $3,000.

In the meantime, I continue to enjoy my Theta ProBasic III that I bought for $600 a couple of years ago. It was a big improvement when I was getting tired of trying ESS DAC's that were too analytical and fatiguing with my Thiel CS5i's. 

@dsper, I did exactly as you suggested last year; sold my Bricasti M3 and tried the ASR darlings RME ADI2 FS and Topping D90.  I don't have anything bad to say about either of them; for the money I would recommend either.  The RME was my favorite of the two and I almost decided to keep it longer term until I was lucky enough to stumble on a Mystique V3 Balanced.   

In my system the D90 offered great dynamics, a black background, and amazing resolution.    As a device to simply analyze every last bit of detail on my favorite recordings it was great.  That being said, for my musical tastes and system preference (Pass Amp, Spendor Speakers) I found the D90 to be too forward and fatiguing for my tastes; I had to lower my listening levels and ultimately my listening time when using it.   I had problems enjoying the music through all of the analytical detail on the majority of the recordings I listen to.  Other folks who prefer that type of sound get a killer deal for its MSRP.

In comparison, I find the Mystique V3 simply plays music in my system and that is what it's all about for me and am happy to pay the difference.   Yes, I A/Bed the Mystique and RME in my system (I returned the D90) and preferred the Mystique enough to pony up the $$.  Again these are my tastes and experiences in my system...    If I need a reasonably priced musical sounding DAC again in the future between upgrades or for a different system, I would be very happy to bring the RME back into my house.

Obviously that doesn't say anything about the Toppings, but that is my experience in relying solely on measurements to make a purchasing decision.

@dsper I keep thinking about buying that dac for a computer system and would certainly put it in the main rig for testing if I had.  That said, I did try another ASR darling, the Matrix X-Sabre Pro and found it kind of grey, boring, and uninvolving.  I had four dacs on home trial at the time and it was the only one I didn't want to listen to.  It wasn't bad per se, it just didn't move me.  

Okay...

I have to ask even though this is supposed to be a $5K to $7K DAC Discussion. Please bear with me.

Has anyone tried a Topping DAC?

They seem to be all the rage in some circles. Audio Science Review rates its measurements of the D90 very highly:  (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/best-usb-dac-review-and-tested-2020-p...) and one very respected tube amp designer from a northern state apparently is using an E30 ($150 brand new) and says it sounds pretty good.

Now, I can understand that power supplies and analog out design are critical and lead to higher cost; but if you can afford a $7,000 DAC, don't you owe it to yourself to try one a cheap one just in case?

Heck, you probably spend more than that taking your significant other out to dinner for no especially special occasion. 

I mean no disrespect, but if you do not try something, how do you know? Otherwise, is it not like Primaluna suggesting that, because their Preamp weighs 50 pounds, it is better than an ARC, BAT, CJ, Don Sachs, VTL, etc.?

Please accept this question as an honest ask.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper 

@c_avila1 

It is my understanding that the PCB's were re-designed to allow for capacitor upgrades. The PCB's are supposed to be stiffer, for one thing, and if I remember right, he said they were going to be elevated, but I might be wrong. Benjamin said he is going to try several types of capacitors, including "exotic" ones. That's all I remember. That said, I'm guessing that any capacitor on the circuit board can be upgraded.

The Mystique V3 is posted on the website again. It appears that many owners are trading in their DAC for the EVO. 

@cal3713 6 - My communication from Benjamin was that lead time would be 6-8 weeks if ordered prior to the holidays and as much as 8-12 weeks if ordered after.  It sounds as if the wide range is 6-12 weeks, depending on demand.  If somebody is interested in ordering one, I suggest contacting Benjamin directly so he can provide the most recent backlog update.

For recent purchasers. How long is the build wait after ordering?

Thaluza, do you know what capacitors will be upgradable in the future? The Mojo site states that the output is direct-coupled, which eliminates output coupling caps. Diode snubbers might be considered an upgrade. However, I would like to see more companies implement film decoupling caps for ’lytics into circuit boards. CuTF is my favorite electrolytic bypass cap. This upgrade is easy to implement in point to point wiring. It's possible to do on PCBs if they're elevated enough or if you use small/thin caps and solder them under the board. 

@rajugsw I'm not trying to invalidate anything you've said, but I've had the Directstream (and May, and a number of other dacs) in my system and they've all sounded quite different.

Not sure why, but the DSDsr just didn't work for me. I actually tried it twice over the years and resold both times. Just something about it and my ears I guess. 

As always, every review is so incredibly biased by the associated ears and equipment. Always a good lesson to remember. Obviously you and many others find the PS Audio dac superlative. My only take away is that we all hear different and everyone is "right."

PS Audio DirectStream was declared equal to the Dave. Both slightly different

PS audio Direct Stream they release software updates that keep your equipment current and up to date

I’ve owned the DSSr. for just over a year with Windom installed. I’ve done a head to head comparison betwen it and the Denafrips Terminator. I’ve also listened to the Holo May DAC Kitsune Edition on another friends system that’s better than mine. My vote will always always go to the non Resistor to Resistor Ladder DAC DSSr. Why, because they all sound the same except on certain music tracks, the FPGA based/Transformer Coupled Outputs of the DSSr. always seems to edge out the old school R2R’s. But they do keep up and give the venerable (6 years now) DSSr. quite the run for it’s money and it’s made here in the U.S. You can always find them used for around $3k.

Sorry I'm not sure about the application to clock signals. Steve @ empirical audio would know though and would probably respond quickly if you emailed or PMd him. Can't quite remember his agon user name unfortunately...

@cal3713 would same digital cable length suggestion apply to digital coax?

Specifically, for digital coax BNC-BNC to provide an external 10MHz clock signal to a DAC?

Or not?  Thx in advance if you know,

Thank you @cal3713 for the information and reminder on digital cable length.
I don't want to go too crazy with changes just now with the EVO coming in month or so but I am interested in hearing recommendations for both digital cables and Ethernet converters so that I can stay away from using USB.  Best case for me would be that my Metrum Ambre (Ethernet input and outputs for everything except USB) would sound good particularly with the improved S/PDIF input on the EVO.  I assume and hope the improvements apply to the AES/EBU input too since I have always found it to sound bolder than S/PDIF through RCA or BNC.
I will certainly be trying all combinations to optimize the sound from the EVO and while I don't want to spend thousands on a converter, I will consider options that clearly enhance the performance of the EVO.  I have so far not gone crazy on digital cables (because I was enjoying I2S with my Adagio) so my current best AES/EBU is the Triode Wire Labs digital XLR cable. 

@mitch2 Perhaps you've found it doesn't matter with your gear, but best practice is to have your spdif cables be 1.5m (or longer) to prevent digital signal reflection induced smearing. At < 1.5m you run a small risk of having a signal go down the cable, reflect back to the source, and then reflect back to the output time aligned with the next part of the digital signal.

@ddafoe There are so many variables, I would not be much help.  In my system, for USB I come directly out of the USB port of the Antipodes DX G3 server with a 1M USB cable.  For S/PDIF, I run 9 feet of Ethernet from the DX to a Metrum Ambre converter/endpoint and then a short S/PDIF cable to the DAC.  There are some handicaps in that my S/PDIF cables are not of the same caliber as my USB cables and my better S/PDIF cable (Oyaide DB-510) has BNC terminations, so I am using BNC/RCA adaptors at each end of the cable.  OTOH, with the USB input I position the DAC closer to the DX server so I have to use a longer pair of interconnects.  Too many trade-offs to make a consistent judgement, except that as you pointed out, I too lose a little edge (detail and excitement?) through the USB input.  When I get the EVO, I plan to spend more time figuring out how to optimize the sound through its upgraded S/PDIF input, probably using AES/EBU, but but I will certainly try USB as well.

@mitch2, can you explain the differences you hear between the V3's SPDIF and USB interface?   I've been using SPDIF (with a Shunyata Anaconda ZTRON cable) for years, and the Mystique V3 is the first DAC I've tried with USB.    I actually prefer the SPDIF (fed from a Bricasti M5).   I find the SPDIF to offer more detail and excitement while the USB to be more recessed and mellow.  If my system was more forward or bright, I maybe would prefer the USB.   To be fair I have no idea how my Luna Orange USB cable compares with my Shunyata cable as I've not compared it with any other USB cables.   The M5 might just sound better with SPDIF too.   It's nice having a streamer with multiple outputs but it is extra work to find the best match with your current DAC, not counting cable differences...

Cheers

Been playing with USB cables here.  
After using I2S for so long, I forgot how much USB "stuff" I had accumulated that I could try.  Cables by Totaldac, Curious, and Wireworld, plus the dual run Gemini cable by ifi.  I also have the W4S Recovery, ifi USB filter, and the ifi iPower that can be used to separate the power leg of a USB cable, particularly the Gemini.  My Antipodes DX G3 server has both powered and unpowered USB ports so I can use the Gemini cable without the iPower by connecting the power leg to the powered USB port and the signal leg attached to the unpowered port, so the signal does not travel in proximity of the power, or I can use the iPower but that requires another short USB cable between the powered port of the DX to the iPower (I have very short USB cables by both Curious and Wireworld for that purpose).

No clear winner yet.... 
Curious (yellow) - Really nice body, good tone, smooth, a little "thick" sometimes
Wireworld Starlight 7 - Smooth but maybe a little thin sounding
ifi Gemini - Good but not great across the board, a little recessed, competent
Totaldac d1 - Clear, good tone, near-neutral on the thick/thin scale, quite musical

I am starting to remember why I didn't like USB...none are perfect (at least yet) and while differences are mostly subtle, I do hear differences.  So far, I think the best two are either Totaldac d1 (probably first place) and Curious with or without the Recovery and with or without the ifi USB filter.  I think the benefit of the Recovery may be a little greater with the Curious but the benefit of using the Recovery and/or the ifi USB filter are subtle at best, and maybe a wash, so I need to listen more to be certain.

Interesting that Benjamin has discussed with me how much better S/PDIF can sound through a good Ethernet to XLR, AES/EBU, or S/PDIF converter, which is why he has included the S/PDIF signal path upgrades on all future EVOs, including the one I am getting.  I know on my Metrum Adagio, the I2S input from the Ambre converter sounded best, but was very closely followed by AES/EBU from the same converter, which was a little bolder with great bass.   I will be very interested in hearing AES/EBU out of the Ambre and into the EVO. 

@mitch2 Congrats!  Really looking forward to reading your impressions.  Obviously you greatly enjoyed the MV3 given that you upgraded.  Interested to read about how much of a change the new unit is.  Glad you'll have the old one on hand so you can do a little A/Bing.

I have worked things out with Benjamin and have taken the plunge on a new Mojo Mystique EVO B4B 21 (in the 2020 chassis). The wait would be more difficult except that he is letting me keep my Mv3 trade-in unit until after I receive the new EVO DAC, which I appreciate. I understand the EVO is likely to be an evolutionary (rather than revolutionary) improvement over the Mv3, because the basic design has not changed. However, I have heard what is possible from evolutionary improvements through my SMc Audio gear so I will be excited to hear the EVO when it gets here.
There hasn’t been any activity on the previously linked EVO thread since September so not sure if that means nobody here has received a new EVO unit since then or if they are all too happy enjoying their new EVOs to post. The only professional review I have found so far is the one on Audiophilia although The Sound Advocate was supposed to have reviewed an EVO in December.

Thanks Mitch.  It will be interesting to see what you think of the upgraded chokes and SPDIF upgrades.  I have a B4B on order also.  Like you I wanted to try before committing to the expense of the Evo; in my case I tried a V2 to see if I could glean what the general character or house sound, if you will, was of the Mojo DACs.  Even with the simpler product I really enjoyed the overall presentation.  Musical flow, tone, overall balance were very much to my liking.  

@thaluza - It sounds like we are getting pretty much the same thing and the same deal.  I did not want to add a bunch more upgrade options since there are several of the former 2020 model upgrades that come stock with the 2021 model, but I am adding the Class A output stage upgrade.  I believe I would like the look of the new chassis as Benjamin described it to me but, given the option, I appreciate that I can get the price break by using the 2020 chassis.  The ferrous chassis will provide better shielding from EMI fields that can result from other components which are located in close proximity or stacked on top but if that is not an issue then the aluminum chassis should work just as well and may provide a better resonance characteristic.
@jimmy2615  - My balanced V3 has Hammond chokes and no upgrades that I am aware of.  However, it sounds wonderful and so it was a hard decision to upgrade from that.  It will be a great deal for somebody who wants most of the EVO sound at half the price.  I am hoping the EVO B4B21 offers sonic improvements in the range of 10 to 20 percent over the V3 and then I will also have the benefits of better boards and modularity to allow for easier future upgrades, such as the cap upgrades.  The S/PDIF input is also supposed to be a significant improvement as is the grounding scheme and a few other features.

Mitch, any idea what your V3 had in it ?  Hammond vs. Lundahl, other upgrades, etc.; was the balanced version of the V3 somehow different than the current EVO model with balanced outputs?    To Thaluza's post, it's funny to think in a few years when people are selling these here it will be like Audio Note speakers...  Selling a Mojo Mystique B4B21 Fe Chassis with Lundahl in the Analogue stage, upgraded SPDIF, non-ceramic boards, etc., etc.  I think it's great, shows a designer never resting on their laurels. 

@mitch2 - Wondering if you sealed the deal and if you went for the older aluminum chassis, (which is being offered with a 10% discount off the entire purchase), or if you went for the new ferrous chassis (no discount offered)?

As for me, I have owned a balanced v.3 for the past two years and I am about to trade it in for a new B4B21. As you might know, the "21" is the new model, and the price of the "21" is close to what a 2020 EVO Pro sold for. I was going to buy the base 2020 B4B model, but the good trade in value he gave me for my balanced v.3 helped nudge me to the "21" model, as did the 10% discount on the total price that Benjamin was offering for agreeing to build my dac in the discontinued aluminum chassis. He described the sound differences between the two chassis types as subtle at best, so it made sense to save some of my money where I could.

I passed on the ferrous chassis, but I am going to fork out the big bucks so I can get the "21" circuit boards. I was not expecting the new circuit boards to be offered to me - as I stated I was intending to buy a base 2020 B2B model - but it made sense to pay more for the circuit boards as it will allow for capacitor upgrades in the future. Apparently, it is very hard if not impossible to upgrade caps with the older, more fragile, circuit boards. With the new boards, Benjamin’s next move is to experiment with capacitors. I am really looking forward to his listening impressions.

@mitch2 

A few weeks ago, I brought my EVO to a fellow Agon members home so he could hear it in his system.  He also uses a DX L3 and @grannyring 's "double-smoked" USB cable.   Th EVO sounded *excellent* in this member's system - which is very nice:  Berning tube amp, vintage Tanoy speakers with super tweeters.  

In my own system, I use SPDIF via AES - currently using a 2 meter Black Cat Digit 110.  I'm extremely happy with it.  Previous SPDIF cable was a Sablon.

Regarding IC's with the EVO, I recently switched  from Audience AU24 SX to Cerious Graphene Matrix.  The Cerious cables are significantly better than the Audience in my system.

In my experience, the EVO is very revealing of cable changes - IC's maybe a bit more than digital.

Congrats on your Mojo EVO.

I can build you a better sounding usb than those if interested Tim. Let me know.  

@cal3713 
I do like the Mojo Mystique V3.  The attributes that set this one apart for me include its fleshed-out, natural-sounding tonality, excellent dynamics, and hard-hitting bass, which probably results from the overbuilt power supply.   The sound stage seems to have realistic proportions with respect to singers and instruments being stationary and in proportion to each other, but I am typically more focused on tone and dynamics so may not be the best judge of how that aspect may relate to other DACs. 

After trying various set-ups, at least in my system, I like the USB input best. Because of my system layout, I was really hoping the S/PDIF input would sound just as good or better so I could continue running Ethernet from my Antipodes server to my Metrum converter/endpoint and then a short digital cable into the V3 DAC (I was previously using I2S from the endpoint into my Metrum Adagio).   However, to my ears it sounds better using a USB cable directly from the Antipodes DX L3 into the Mystique V3, so I repositioned the DAC closer to the server, which requires that I run longer IC cables into my preamp.  Of the cables I have on-hand, the Curious sounded better than the Totaldac D1, which is the opposite what I had previously encountered (I wonder how the Curious Evolved would sound?).

The decision to upgrade was difficult because the V3 sounds so good.  However, I like the idea that the new EVO units are more modular and will be easier to upgrade in the future and, of course, Benjamin says they sound better.  Therefore, I am currently finalizing the details of an upgrade to the B4B EVO.  

Excellent. I'm subscribed to that one too. Thanks.

Thanks, I'll post my thoughts about the Evo in the dedicated Evo thread so that we don't derail this thread.

Congrats @c_avila1 looking forward to reading the listening report!

@rsf507 Opting to max out the Evo’s B4B (Bang 4 Buck) options seems counter-intuitive. One might as well select the Pro and max out those options.

Here are the options I selected for the B4B:

• S/PDIF Upgrade - Lundahl Amorphous Core
  
• Analog PSU Choke - Lundahl
  
• Digital PSU Choke - Hammond
  
• Shielding - Copper Clad + ERS Paper
  
• Anti-Resonance: Sorbothane Feet
  

The price of the Evo with these options is $8,349.95. It is very expensive but I think it will be worthwhile judging from what Grannyring has stated. He has a lot of experience performing DIY upgrades in DACs, some of which I have experienced in my own system. Grannyring’s description of the Evo’s sound suggests that this DAC has a special quality that traditional DACs cannot produce.

My name was placed on the build schedule at the end of November. I hope to receive the Mystique Evo B4B this month.

@mitch2 Any updates on the Evo?

Has anyone tried the Merason DAC-1?

I recommend checking out the Lector Digicode S-192. Until I heard that Audio Note was the best DAC I heard at that price point. 

See if you can audition a Sonnet Digital Audio Morpheus before you spend more.

:)

Many until I found ladder DACs that worked with my Thiel CS5i's.

@dsper sorry to hear about your wife hope she is doing fine.
So what dac's have you masturbated to? (sorry couldn't help myself)

Gosh, this thread could drive you nuts.

Suggestions all over the map without any regard for what speakers one is using or the overall sound of one's system.

Still gets down to listening in your home.

If buying without hearing, then the question should be how does a particular DAC sound in the context of the system in which it is being used compared to the DAC it replaced.

Otherwise, it is just masturbation is it not?

Sorry, my wife has tested positive for Covid19 and the quarantine is starting to get to me.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

I hear you on all the connections. The system was optimized for the Adagio, which is different from the Mystique in two significant ways, the Adagio uses an I2S input and it has a lossless internal volume control.  Since the Mystique has neither an I2S input or a volume control, I now have to sort out whether S/PDIF or USB input sounds better and a method of controlling volume.  I am going to try it connected directly to my Antipodes DX server, which can perform duties of both the Roon Core and Endpoint when used through its USB output.  I will get it figured out. 

Wow sounds very VERY complicated with so many connections. Isn't there some one box solution you could try? Less can be more.

Sounds promising, even if not a revelatory change so far. Looking forward to the next update...

Even considering a less than optimal set up, the Mystique V3 is sounding pretty darn good over here.  Sort of a hard call vs. the Metrum Adagio since my system is currently set up for the Adagio DAC, using its own internal volume control.  My current digital set up prior to the Mystique V3 goes like this:

• Hardwired Ethernet from Orbi router to Bonn switch, then TP link optical isolators, then into the Antipodes DX L3
• Ethernet from Antipodes DX to Metrum Ambre (Roon Endpoint) 
• I2S from Ambre to Metrum Adagio DAC with internal VC
• Balanced cables from Adagio to SMc Audio preamp with VC removed (currently a unity gain active buffer)
• Balanced cables from preamp to SMc Audio monoblocks

With the Mystique V3, currently running:

• Same as above then Canare rca digital cable from Ambre to Mystique V3
• Balanced outputs from Mystique to Goldpoint Attenuator (i.e., VC)
• Balanced cables from Goldpoint to SMc preamp/buffer (still without volume control)
• Balanced cables from preamp to SMc monoblocks

I believe the Canare cable and Goldpoint attenuator are weak points but not sure about S/PDIF vs. USB inputs and whether one is better than the other on this DAC - Benjamin was not definitive on this point.  Therefore, I plan to try:

• First, taking the preamp/buffer out of the signal path and running balanced cables directly from the passive Goldpoint volume control to the SMc amps, and then
• Second, moving the Mystique closer to the Antipodes DX L3, which I can use as both Roon Core and Endpoint and therefore output USB directly from the DX to the Mystique V3.  I have both Curious and Totaldac USB cables here to try along with W4S recovery and ifi stuff I can use in-line if I want.  When I used USB, my preference was simply the Totaldac cable.  I will still need the Goldpoint sitting over by the amps to control volume and can try this approach both with or without the preamp/buffer.

The other thing I can do is to reattach the VC in my SMc preamp so I can try the same things listed above without the Goldpoint unit in the signal path - one less box.  I am in the process of figuring out how to implement a remote controlled volume control with display in my preamp and am considering both Khozmo and Tortuga units.

The other possibility is to try a different endpont with a USB output, such as the SOtM trio that I used to own.

I would like to get this figured out since the Mystique is possibly good enough to consider trading in on one of the new EVO models, which will be going up in price in January.  I will not yet say the Mystique V3 is flat out better than the Adagio but it plays harder and fuller in the bass and has perhaps a bit more tonal color over all.  So far, what I would call it is a very musically addictive DAC.

@rsf507 - Fed Ex is really busy and delivered it later than expected - this evening.  Since I have not had time to connect it, or to reengage the volume control on my preamp, I am going to need a couple of days or more to really get to know the DAC.  I can set it up tomorrow to run amp-direct through a balanced Goldpoint attenuator I have here, but I will probably not know how good it really sounds until I can run it through my preamp.  I would like to have it figured out before the end of the year in case I want to take advantage of current pricing on an EVO level Mystique DAC (before the planned 2021 price increase).