Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

Good points. Adding to Cal’s suggestion, if the Rossi allows for it (I haven’t checked)...I recommend running the Pass XP32 as Pre and the Rossi as Amp.

Cal and Charles,

Yes, it is definitely on my list to audition with the L2i acting solely as a DHT pre amp driving the SIT-1s.  I have a hunch about it but won't say because as Charles says you just don't know until you listen.

The problem is tearing myself away from what's coming forth from the integrated.  Oh, my.  And my apologies, it's Rossi duh not Rossie.

Cal,
Good observation. It would be most interesting to see how the DHT preamp section  of the VR mates with the S.I.T.-1 My suspicion is very well and quite likely to surpass the Pass Labs preamp in this scenario.   Fun stuff.
Charles

Yet another example of why nothing substitutes for direct listening in your system (When possible). Some have had unimpressive results with high DF amplifiers  and some excellent results.  The Nenuphar designer and builder favors low DF amplifiers for these speakers.  So while DF is a factor to be aware of there are obviously other variables that are impactful as well. This is what makes high end audio interesting,  fun and sometimes mysterious. Listening trumps all.
Charles 

@stephendunn Congrats on the outcome. I’d also be interested in how the SIT-1s would sound driven by a high quality tube (6sn7 or dht) preamp (perhaps you’ve already tried this?). I love Pass labs, but have read some mixed reviews of their preamps and wonder how much of what you’re hearing is from the preamp stage of the VR.

(Edit, I just looked up the VR and see they talk extensively about the - dht- tube typology used in the preamp gain stage!)

(Edit 2, and now I see the VR has a preamp output so you can actually try running the SITs with the VR front-end and see exactly how much you like each of its parts. That's great.)

First to log in on speaker cable inquiry: I use SR Foundation cables after having auditioned them against Double Shotgun Clear Day cables. (RIP Paul Laudati).  The Foundation had more meat in the mid range and bass as well as more air and larger soundstage.

But now on to my latest discovery.  So I've been sitting here happy as an audiophile clam can be with my Pass Labs XP-32 and SIT 1's making magic with my Nenuphars.  Then my local Pass Labs dealer (Gestalt Hifi) becomes a Vinnie Rossie dealer and offers me an audition of the VR Integrated Amp L2i.  He even has the upgraded Elrog 300b tubes.  I look up the specs on this universally acclaimed 100 AB watts per channel unit and find it has zero negative feedback (great) but an output impedance of .10 ohm.  Not so great, giving it a damping factor of 800 driving the Nenuphars.  But still, my friend Mike is willing to come over and install the beautiful beast (50 lbs) white gloving the tubes and everything.  We listen for a while, things sound decent, he leaves and I'm sort of wincing at this over ripe plummy ness to Bill Charlaps's piano. (Ah tubes, I say to myself.)  So I go away and come back in a couple of hours and really listen.  Whoa.  Wait.  We have a contender here!  All plummy ness is gone, the soundstage is HUGE (something others have heralded about this amp), instruments are 3 dimensional and tonal colors are like wet paint. This can't be, it sounds more alive and real than my SIT-1s!  But I'm not focusing on the bass enough, surely the gorilla damping factor has to be sitting on that.  So I play the best test of true bass I know, Ray Brown's Super Bass and his Three by Four number from his Walk On album.  Not only is depth of bass better, but it's more tuneful and full of these micro details, string against finger flesh, string against wood I've never heard before.  Plus the live recording space has become my room!  So what's the damping factor reigning in or impacting?  I can't hear it.  I think someone here a while ago loved the Nenuphars with an equally high damping factor Gryphon amp. I looked askance.  Well, I ain't looking that way no more.  The VR is punching way above it's damping factor weight (or any weight class for that matter) and I'm grinning ear to ear.  More to come. 

Keith,
I’ve heard Vaxativ single driver speakers a few years back and I wasn’t blown away for certain. Thin in the midrange and bass shy. From all indications the Cube Audio Nenuphar is a much more complete and satisfying speaker. I have no reason to doubt this as a fair number of listeners have confirmed this assessment. It's reported to be quite adept with all genres of music. 
Charles

FYI, since Ag / Argentum, aka Silver is on the menu...

The SR speaker cables I used are high purity silver 99.999%

The Scott Sheaffer speaker cable I am using is also high purity silver, though I do not know the specific purity level. Knowing Scott, his sourcing and selection is impeccable.

As mentioned above, though Scott's cables edged out the SRs and I clearly prefer them in my system, the SR cables are superb.

Good to read the back and forth above. As @debjit_g mentioned, the thread had been dormant for a bit.

Charles, interesting indeed. That said, Srajan likes a music genre that really i'm not into (world acoustic) and his writing is often confusing. 

I will say I heard the Voxativ 9.87 in a dealer's home and wasn't impressed as his (and others) reviews. That said, I don't believe it was broken in near enough. It had wonderful jump factor, but also clear as day, uneven frequency response issues in various parts of the spectrum. The bass was also dry.

I've been toying with the idea of getting a second speaker (YG is my first) and Zu/Cube are high on that list. The Druid VI is considerably less expensive, but seems to be more of a rock n roll speaker vs a classical one. I can say previously owning Definitions that the old Zu's strengths weren't on classical. The Druid VI bridges the gap much further but still doesn't seem like that speaker's favorite genre.
 

Cal,
That referral to 6 Moons is a good idea. Srajan Ebaen has been an admirer and user of Zu speakers for quite some time. He has reviewed a number of their models very favorably thorough the years.


He was very taken and struck by the Cube Audio Nenuphar and seems to place them in their own singular uppermost tier category for single driver speakers . He is astonished by their sound quality and presentation.  Although Zu utilizes full range drivers I realize that it isn’t a single driver speaker as is the Nenuphar.
Charles

@keithr Hopefully someone who's actually done the comparison will step in, but I suspect these two designs will sound very different. You can likely catch some of that if the read the two corresponding 6moons reviews and compare some if the descriptors used across across them...

E.g.:
See paragraph 3 here - http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/zu3/6.html
And whole page, but especially final paragraph here - https://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/cubeaudio2/5.html

@debjit_g After four years of work getting my Coincidents to finally sound like a reference, I'm not feeling a big rush to try new speakers, but I still like the idea of putting the neo driver in a 1cuft sealed cube for a diy project and change of pace. I'm very attracted to the idea of eliminating the crossover. If I do take the plunge, I will most certainly use the tempo Electric wire inside the cabinet. Would probably go with 14ga as that's what I currently use on my mid-range driver (20ga to my tweeter & 12ga in the bass cabs).

~~~~~

And @charles1dad I wonder if Israel's stated preference stems from the fact that he sells his own copper wiring. Replacing the stranded copper (with a Teflon jacket) in my PREs with solid core silver reduced distortion, and increased texture, color, and naturalness. As you stated, the silver sounds smooth with a subtle warmth. I don't hear any tradeoffs at all. The only downside is increased cost.  I'm confident anyone with these speakers who did an a/b would prefer it.

And I don't blame you for leaving well enough alone inside the Coincident electronics. I've been using VH Audio's silver (5N, solid core) inside my electronics, but also still have a lot of copper in the various circuit boards. Routing new signal wire throughout all the pTp wiring would certainly be a laborious project. And as you state, they already sound so good...

~~~~~

Also, for anyone considering the option, Tempo Electric's 14ga is only ~$60/meter (x4 if you're buying a stereo set) with a 30-day free trial. It's a bargain.

Anyone compare the Cubes to Zu? Seems Druid VI. Nenuphar would be super interesting.

Cal,
I’ve used various silver IC and speaker cable over the past 20 years. I’m currently using Ocellia silver cables the past 7 or 8 years. As with you I just haven’t heard the thin,bright or edgy sound supposedly attributable to silver. In fact the Ocellia is very refined, smooth, and organic yet quite open and nuanced. Exceptionally transparent/clear. Warmth rather than cool and sterile/clinical.

Interesting the improvement in your Coincident speakers as I know they use high quality 6N copper wire. Israel Blume (Coincident founder/owner) once told me he doesn’t care for silver. I respect his opinion but I’ve never had a problem with silver wiring.

IMO silver actually has a natural warmth (But not gratuitous).I’ve always been curious as to how my Coincident Frankenstein 300b and their Statement Line Stage would sound with silver internal wiring. But I’m very happy with both and left well enough alone.
Charles

Thanks @david_ten and @cal3713

@cal3713 what gauge and connector will you be using ? single or double run ? have you considered replacing the internal wire from the speaker terminal to the Neo 10 driver with the Tempo electric wire ?

Still haven’t built my pair, but I’d like to take another opportunity to suggest the tempo Electric solid core 99.99% silver in oversized Teflon jackets. That’s basically the purist, most conductive wire available in one of the lowest dialectic insulators. Other people may appropriately charge you for advanced geometry and terminations, but they’re not going to beat those basics no matter the price.

I replaced all the wire in my system with high purity solid core silver including all internal wire in my Coincident PRE speakers. Every step of the way things got more natural and refined. The tempo Electric wire runs all the way from my internal amplifier boards out to the speaker drivers. Not a touch of the brightness or thinness sometimes associated with silver.

@debjit_g  I am using cables made by Scott Sheaffer. They replaced my Synergistic Research cables (which were also quite good).

This thread has been silent for sometime...:-)
What are folks using for the speaker cable with their Nenuphars ?

Do you know the selling price?

The Brinkmann Integrated amp is a great match with single driver speakers 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeK04ZUOoss

On a side note, FirstWatt has a new model out.
"The F8 revisits their most popular J2 model but simplifies the front end for just three signal-path devices per channel. It applies current not voltage feedback and improves on the J2 specs on bandwidth and damping factor."

The output impedance is 0.2 ohms, which puts it between the SIT3 and the J2, but far below the SIT1 and SIT2 at 4 ohms.
www.firstwatt.com/prod.html

- Robert

<<For those who are using SIT-3, what preamp are you using?>>

My Backert preamp uses two 12au7 tubes. Tube rolling is highly recommended. This evening I replace the stock JJs with Mullards. Amazing.

"My father's house has many rooms..."

@rwpollock  
+1 

Preamps are sometimes under-appreciated, with more time being focused on amps and speakers. It may have been Robert Harley who wrote that the amplifier determines the character of a system while the preamplifier determines the quality.

- Robert

And since everyone should love their preamp...

"I found independent power supplies for each channel to be a very substantial upgrade when I did it for my first watt f4s. I think I've said this before too, but it's a really beautiful amp that doesn't get the attention it serves, btw."

I remember reading the 6moons review of the F-4 years ago and thinking they would be perfect if one had a preamp that they loved.

- Robert

"I bought my SIT-1 Mono's (Demo's) for about $500 more than what the SIT-3 goes for new."

That sounds like a great deal. Didn't they sell for $11K when new?

"Looks like the amps with 2a3 tubes are 2.5 watts/channel. Is that enough to hear at sane listening level, assuming you sit 8-9ft from the speaker?"

For my "sane" levels it would be, but it also depends upon the size of your room. 20-40 sq meters is 215 to 430 square feet (20' x 20').

From the Cube Audio website:
"The Nenuphars are dedicated for rooms of 20 - 40 square meters. They are a perfect match for a tube amp with at least 3 Watts per channel. Our personal preference is somewhere around 2A3, Px4, 45 tube-based amps. Nonetheless, most solid-state amps (especially those working in A-class) are also an amazing match for the Nenuphars."

@rwpollock Wow, had seen the name in print, but didn't known anything about those amps. They look like a ton of fun.

Speaking of Tektron tube amps, they are the 2a3 amps used by Cube Audio at shows. Robyatt Audio carries four of their smaller amps/preamps.
www.robyattaudio.com/TektronProducts.htm
I may purchase one this winter to check it out.

Looks like the amps with 2a3 tubes are 2.5 watts/channel. Is that enough to hear at sane listening level, assuming you sit 8-9ft from the speaker ? What about 300B tubes ? has anybody been able to listen to a 300B amp with the Nenuphars ?

Speaking of Tektron tube amps, they are the 2a3 amps used by Cube Audio at shows. Robyatt Audio carries four of their smaller amps/preamps.
www.robyattaudio.com/TektronProducts.htm
I may purchase one this winter to check it out.

- Robert

@rwpollock Definitely.  The idling board of the unused channel does (in my experience) still create a little extra distortion though, so if I settled on that solution, I'd eventually disconnect that board from the power supply. If a friend had a unit, your method would be the easiest way to see what the benefit would be.

If one had two SIT-3s could you turn them both on and run the right channel from your preamp to one and the left channel through the other amp? One amp would then drive the right speaker and one the left.

@cal3713 interesting thought. There is no question that a separate power supply on each channel can make a substantial difference depending on the original power supply design. I haven’t seen the inside of SIT-3 but if there is enough space inside, you could install the 2nd one in the same chassis and rewire into a dual mono configuration. You would then have to recalculate the fuse rating (if it has one) and drill another hole for the 2nd fuse. It’s another option for someone wanting a stereo amp and saving real estate :-)

Thanks @riaa and @rwpollock Looks like you guys are lucked out getting a pair of SIT-1. All the SITs are unobtonium these days. I will keep my eyes and ears wide open in the used market but if anybody is willing to offload any of the SITs, pm me please :-)
btw, I currently have a PS Audio BHK Pre - can anybody tell if it’s a good match with the SITs ?

@david_ten thanks for the confirmation. You happen to also use a Townsend podium - did it make a bigger difference then just using the Eden spikes on the bare floor ?

It would be interesting to try the sit3 in a dual mono configuration for a more fair comparison to the sit1. All you need is a second chassis, power supply, and then you just move one channel over. Anyone over on the pass labs forum of diyaudio could do it. As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I found independent power supplies for each channel to be a very substantial upgrade when I did it for my first watt f4s. I think I've said this before too, but it's a really beautiful amp that doesn't get the attention it serves, btw.

@david_ten  hi, Thank you for the tip !  :-) 

I bought my SIT-1 Mono's (Demo's) for about $500 more than what the SIT-3 goes for new.

SIT-1 monos (when they can be found) are much more expensive than than the SIT-3s. Occasionally you will find a SIT-2 for sale, usually cheaper than a 3. The SIT-2 is stereo and provides that immediacy of a tube SET amp. The Bakoon 13R integrated ($5K used) sounds good with Nenuphars, although I prefer going FirstWatt.

For a preamp, the Pass Lab ones make for a great combo. On the tube side I have used LTA and Backert, with Backert being my preferred choice. Easy tube rolling if you enjoy that.

- Robert

@debjit_g You are correct. Eden Sound Extra Large Solid Brass Spikes in the front AND Regular Hemispikes in the rear.

The angle / tilt (front to back) is very close to the original. It resulted in a slight increase in height.

Overall, the improvement in sound quality and performance (on my hardwood suspended flooring) was significant and immediately heard and experienced versus the stock footers.

@philipwu Philip, check out Srajan Ebaen’s very recent review of Aurai Audio’s M1 Classic speaker. At the very end of the review (bottom of the last page / Page 11), Srajan compares the M1 to the Cube Audio Neuphar.

I do not know if the Reference 3A speakers are similar to the Aurai M1’s, or if the comparison is apt,...but his short summary relative to the Nenuphar might provide insight.

SIT-1 Mono’s are supposedly superior to the Sit-3 on these speakers. I have both so look forward to seeing for myself down the road. There are numerous YOUTUBE Videos featuring these speakers and Flea Watt Amps from Tsakiridis,Tektron and other Foreign tube amp manufacturers...dont think any of these marvelous sounding amps cost more than 2-3K. DECWARE might be a USA alternative although they dont have any 2A3 amps which sound awesome on these.

as I looking towards getting a pair myself, I would like feedback on the following:
1. any suggestions on a solid or tube integrated amp not costing a fortune ?

2. for those who are using SIT-3, what preamp are you using ?
@david_ten I see that you are using Edensound spikes. Did you get the extra large solid brass spike for the front and regular hemispikes for the back ? In that case, did it match the original rack angle ?

dear all, 
have anyone compared the sonic differences between Cube Audio Nenuphar vs any of Reference 3A speakers? just curious how do they sound since 3A do not use crossover in their main driver too, and with only a cap before the tweeter, i guess the soundstaging , imaging, speed, dynamics etc.. generally very similar ? Thanks for any comments. 
-phil

Wood veneers would be interesting. The black can be a bit hulking, kind of like a Carnac stone in your living room. :-)

- Robert

Related to the cabs...the finish anyway...they are going to start offering multiple Wood Veneer finishes you can choose instead of just the Black/White option. Im looking forward to seeing those designs.

Maybe the best way to get the very best sound out these speaker drivers is to just buy these speaker drivers and put them in Cabinets made of Granite. 
You get a cabinet maker to do these granite speaker cabinets for you
  
https://www.cubeaudio.eu/cube-audio-f10-neo

Robert, thanks for the link.

I suggest trying some other amps mentioned in this thread as being compatible with the Nenuphar’s. My own experience is with the Bakoon 13R which I can highly recommend.

Diablo 300 is a Darkish sounding amp....I guess as long as you like that kind of presentation. Have ordered a pair of the Mini Nenuphar's but they wont arrive till the Fall. Completely sold out of everything except 1 pair of the Magnus is available from the distributor according to my dealer