I'm reporting on impact of adding a jantzen-audio-100-ohm-10-watt-audio-grade-superes-resistor--255-944 to each of the positive speaker terms on the Vinnie Rossi L2iSE. This lowered the damping factor driving the Nenuphars from 800 to 80 and was suggested by Mr. Rossi as an experiment.
Immediate impression was the overall sound just got cleaner and more relaxed. After extended listening it was obvious those impressions came from a clearer/cleaner mid range and mid bass. The lower bass also sounded slightly better, not deeper, but as if the deepest notes weren't hitting a dead end. The other clear benefit was how much better the L2iSE sounded at low volumes. Everything remained in balance at a lower spls (before the mid bass on down sounded weak). Of course I was unaware the sound could have been improved in any of these ways--except in the loss of bass playing at lower volumes (and I'm talking pretty low here, with the L2iSE volume setting at 14 or 15 instead of the 24-27 where I normally listen).
It looks a little weird to have these green resistors the size of lady finger firecrackers back there and to think of this huge sound coming through their little wires wrapped around the WBT speaker terminals and the banana plugs. But there you have it, my newly hot rodded L2iSE swinging even freer than before.
What if I added another resister on each side and brought the damping factor down to 8 (which is what my SIT-1s batted at)? We'll see what Vinnie says about that.
(BTW I am far from qualified to be recommending that you try adding these resistors to your own amp or integrated. My gear's designer was kind enough to entertain this experiment, guiding me to make sure that nothing was shorted when I connected the resistors. If you're considering such a mod, I would first run it by your amp's manufacturer/designer.)
So curious about these expensive and exotic single driver speakers. I have a pair of omega alnico towers with matching 10” subs and love them, but have never heard magus or nenuphars. The omegas have a paper hemp cone with whizzed. Anybody heard these next to the omegas? Wonder how much you get for the extra bucks. With dual subs, I’m out just a little over $4k for the omegas with teak veneer.
For those looking for a preamp to go with First Watt etc. you might take a look at the Allegri Reference by Townshend Audio. Its a high quality passive design.
My Backert preamp is an original Rhythm, the 1.1 (they now sell a 1.3 version). There is a used 1.1 for sale now on Audiogon for $3500. The only thing I don't care for is that the Backerts invert polarity/phase so you have to reverse the red/black speaker connections. No big deal if you don't switch you gear around. That said, it's fairly easy to tell if things are inverted; it is kind of like pushing your music uphill....
debjit_g Tektron offers quite a range. Besides 2A3 and 300b they have a 211 tube integrated amplifier. This is pretty unique. Of course they have a plethora of non DHT pentode type el 34, KT 88,KT 150,6550 models. etc. Charles
thanks @stephendunn and @charles1dad. All excellent options and I will do some readings on them.
I remember writing to Tektron USA distributor before I bought the Nenuphars but did not hear back. I didn’t follow through at that time. Maybe its time to do a follow up. Has anybody heard in person how the Nenuphar sounds with the Tektron vs the First Watt or other amps ? I am hoping that the 2A3 can power the Cube’s to a comfortable listening level when the listening position is 8-9ft from the speaker. I was also considering Triode labs, either a 2A3 or 300B integrated but they don't have a remote which is a deal breaker for me.
@rwpollock, yes I have heard great things about Backert. Which model are you using ? If I go with the tube pre route with the SIT-3, I am also considering Supretek DHT pre. I hope all these choices will be better than the BHK pre (which is no slouch) that I am currently using.
If you want to stay with your FirstWatt amplifier, I have had excellent results with a tube preamp from Backert. All of their models have very long tube life and are very easy to tube roll (I recommend the Mullard 12au7).
debjit_g, Here's another possibility. The Canadian company Coincident has an integrated amplifier named the Dynamo. It is available in two versions, el 34 or 300b (A bit more expensive but I think excellent for the Nenuphar). Both of these are single end circuits rather than push pull. The latest versions have bigger and better output transformers and beefed up power supplies. Worth a thought. Charles
debjit_g, Line Magnetic is an excellent suggestion for a very high quality tube (Particularly SET as well as push pull) integrated amplifiers. I’d also recommend that you consider the Italian Tektron brand as well. They offer quite a large stable of integrated amplifiers as push pull or SET. This is the brand of amplifiers that Cube Audio always selects in their European audio shows and demonstrations.
I believe that most of their models fall well within your budget range. Charles
Onhwy61, Well, david_ten who has owned the Nenuphars for a couple of years could certainly chime in with some informed insight. Based on what I’ve read and heard about this speaker I’d say that probably 70% is attributed to the remarkable driver’s exquisite design parameters and its successful execution/implementation. Many hours and tedious effort along with extensive trial and error were required.
The speaker cabinet dimensions/geometry/physics and chosen material and construction technique probably account for the remaining 30%. If you carefully read the original 6 Moons review you will appreciate there was major effort needed to get the cabinet right. I believe that the cabinet plays a large role in the final sound quality that is not given suitable credit for.
The driver and motor/magnet assembly is an outstanding end result and would work beautifully in other DIY cabinets ( If well thought out ). But without question the special Nenuphar cabinet is a crucial aspect for this speaker’s resounding success. A ton of talent, effort, knowledge and patience went in to getting the Nenuphar right. Charles
debit_g I'm not sure whether it was in this thread or somewhere else, but I read that someone was very happy pairing the Nenuphars with the Line Magnetic 845 Premium integrated. Actually I think several in their line would make good mates--damping factor won't be an issue, but you have to look for their circuits with no negative feedback. Price wise I think you're looking at $9-12K but don't quote me.
I am quiet happy with the SIT-3 (both sound and power-wise) and am thinking of either investing in a better preamp or a good tube integrated. The VR L2i at $19k is out of budget and so is the AC. Has anyone paired a good integrated at a reasonable lower price, say 10K or somewhere in that range, give or take ?
Thanks for a very educational thread. I don't know if this can be answered directly, but feel free to speculate. How much of the loudspeaker's sound quality is attributable to its full range, crossoverless design vs. its fanatical and over the top construction?
The Nenuphars are so easily driven it seems that the beastly Aries Cerat amplifiers would be overkill in this specific application. I’m not doubting the sound quality of these massive amplifiers. Charles
I know very well Aries Cerat, i've auditioned the Genus with my Kennerton headphones and the big monoblocks in a full Aries Cerat system.Best SET IMO.I would probably choose the Genus to drive Nenuphars.
@thieliste I can’t comment about the Brinkmann since I haven’t tried.
The following are possible contenders
Tektron which Cube themselves use at shows First Watt which the USA distributor uses with Cubes at shows ACG which AVS has used VR from this thread Bakoon 13R which Srajan of Six Moons recommended plus myself Found as used by the OP
There may be others of course.
From my point of view the size/weight/cost of some of the alternatives is not appealing to me.
BTW I contacted Vinnie Rossi to give him my congrats on the L2iSE and mentioned the high damping factor that wasn’t supposed to work with the Nenuphars. He suggested adding a 10 ohm resistor to the positive speaker terminals to see if that made a difference. I ordered the resistors (VR told me which kind) and we’ll see.
So, there was a pair of SIT-1 monoblocks listed for sale this weekend on Audiogon. They went in a few hours, and I missed them. Did anybody here pick them up?
There was a post about ACG with Cube earlier in this thread. I haven’t tried but you might consider Bakoon 13R perhaps which I can recommend. The VR also sounds like a good option, although three times the price of the Bakoon.
I was watching Peter's video on the 8" Nenuphar mini last night and thought it sounded good but also very aggressive. Not sure if its the recording or its on my end.
AV Show Reports likes the new Nenuphar Mini's BEST over the bigger Nenuphar speakers Now ! I would love to hear these speakers with the $8K Brinkmann Vollverstarker Integrated amp! I bet those all new Silversmith Audio FIDELIUM cables would take these Cube Audio speakers to the next level !
Hi Stephen, Thanks for the update. It seems clear that the Vinnie Rossi hybrid is a fabulous match with the Nenuphars. It's gratifying to read how happy you are with this current system set-up. I believe that you will remain in joyful musical bliss for years to come. It's an achievement to get your audio system to a point where it all clicks for you. Charles
rivecs I've thought about this, but removing the drivers, let alone soldering, was too intimidating for me--like you say. Obvious questions are: 1. what kind of wire? silver? copper? both? 2. and once you have the right wire why not run it directly to amp, skipping speaker cables altogether?
More on Vinnie Rossi L2i. I'll just come out and come clean on this: I am enthralled by the way this integrated amp sounds with the Nenuphars. It is a no joke, jaw dropping experience, blowing out the side walls and back wall and probably ceiling if mine weren't 18' high. And it's so tonally real and present and alive that I just can't find a nat to pick. Except that problem I just posted about it not delivering the big bass. Well, I discovered a way to fix it...now wait for it...TURN UP THE VOLUME. I know, I'm an idiot, but a conscientious one, trying to keep volume levels equal when I go from one amp (the SIT-1) to the other, the L2i. I normally listen in the low/mid 80's db perfect for my size room for jazz and chamber music (which is maybe 72% of my musical diet). Yes, with the level set at 84 db (according to my radio shack thingy) the SIT-1 delivered real bass drum whacks but the L2i needed more juice. Like four up clicks on its 64 step remote volume control (to about 89 db). Voila, like the magical Harry Potter paintings that suddenly become three dimensional, you are immersed in a musical sound field with no lack of bass. (Before accusing me of hyperbole read some of the reviews of the L2i or the separates it's the hybrid of. And remember those reviewers don't have Nenuphars!) So, yes, it's true the SIT-1 comes to life at lower volumes and is the perfect early-morning-before-your-house-mates rise amp (and what an amp). But when the house is yours, you'll want to plug in the L2i and fly.
But what about the L2i in DHT pre mode driving the SIT-1's? Do you get the best of both worlds? No, but you get a gorgeous sound. Something I would be head over heels for if I hadn't heard the L2i going solo. I have to do a little more A/B work against the XP32 to give you comparative details.
Now this will blow your minds! The speakers have binding posts. These WBT posts are very good but not as good as hardwiring. But what is really not good is the input tip jack on the speaker driver.....looks like it only takes a banana plug. If you really want to hear the speaker....then this is what you will do:
Remove the driver from the box and hardwire/solder the best wire you can source directly to the voice coil wire.....right at the point where it is soldered to the tip jack.......then remove the binding posts in the rear of the speaker and run this wire directly out and clamp or solder it to your speaker wires. Seal up the hole around the wire coming out.....OMG.....
With two sets of connectors gone and better wire.....you will hear things you never thought this speaker could do. This is not subtle. Even better would be to add a set of Ground Enhancers right on the driver negative post.
When you go to sell your speakers (what, someone will sell their speakers?!?) you can put it all back to stock and no one will ever know you modded it.
Ground Enhancers are loops of litz wire that you put on the negative terminal of a speaker....(or directly on the speaker driver). These loops of wire act as a better ground and enhance detail.....very cheap....$30 the pair. Yes, I sell them.....I will become a millionaire if you buy a pair.
I understand that only about 1% of audiophiles are adventurous and feel comfortable soldering and modding expensive gear.........but if you are that one person, then you will rewarded with much better sound......and all for very cheap.
Hi Cal, This respectful and helpful type of decorum and behavior was pretty much the norm in an earlier era on Audiogon. There have always been differences of viewpoint amongst posters on this forum. However the way in which they were managed was more mature and reasonable.
I really began to notice a change in interactions and increased trolling about 5 or 6 years ago. Not sure what's responsible for the evolution of this behavior but I'm glad it hasn't infiltrated this enjoyable and informative thread. Charles
Btw, I just wanted to say how exemplary this thread is. Just pure, helpful, experience sharing and education. It's really a pleasure, thanks. If only the rest of the site could follow suit...
All good, thanks David. Enjoying my Cube/Bakoon system. I noticed Srajan had good results also with VR pre and Bakoon as an amp only. It will be interesting to hear what VR/SIT 1 is like from Stephen.
I've been researching dht preamps and am really looking forward to the report Stephen. Not sure it'll have enough gain to drive my F4s, but the VR preamp really looks great.
Stephen Your findings closely mirrors the listening impression/ findings of Srajan Ebaen in regard to the bass performance as it relates to the DF. It does make sense when considering the design objective of the driver as stated by Cube Audio. I expect that the DHT Rossi preamp section will be beautifully matched with the S.I,T.-1 amplifier BTW I'm very familiar with the Elrog 300b, a superb sounding tube. Charles
There are indeed a number of pathways to pursue with the combination of the L2i and SIT 1s. But before I get started I wanted to make sure that the high damping factor of the L2i driving the Nenuphar was a non issue. Maybe the Ray Brown bass test--which the L2i passed with flying colors--wasn’t all encompassing. So I dove into my orchestral playlist to hear more. And I quickly discovered a problem. The L2i delivered the bass drum with a whimper, no impact, no mallet on skin. The drum’s climax after a crescendo was muffled, dim. Played through the SIT-1 with the XP32 pre the drum was big, impactful, as it should be. Night and day difference. One track that made this incredibly obvious was Prelude and Aztec Dance from Reference Recording’s Fiesta!, Dallas Wind Symphony, Howard Dunn. This was a big let down for me because other aspects of the L2i’s synergy with the Nenuphars were so positive: the deeper, wider soundstage, the enhanced 3D presence, the lit-from-within tonality. How much of that is attributable to the DHT pre-amplifier part of the design and how much to the AB MOSFET amp stage? Well, running the L2i into the SIT-1s as a DHT preamp might help answer that question. (With those big Elrog 300B Polaris missiles emerging from the top of the L2i, I think we all might have a hunch.)
Still, how could the L2i play Ray Brown’s bass with depth and impact but drop the ball with the big bass drum entirely? The greater the bass dynamic the more the damping factor affects it?
Four pathways that will in combination fully demarcate the contributions of each preamp and amplifier. Sounds super informative. And wonderful music in all cases no doubt. Looking forward to reading about the outcomes...
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
