Following are my impressions of my audition of Cube Nenuphars:
Please note only digital source was used to keep everything simple and quick switching of tracks. My dealer had all the Cube models on the floor but I only focused on the Nenuphars.
Gear used for audition at dealer:
Preamp: Miyajima EC-5 Full function preamp
Amp: Pass Labs XA25, Bakoon 13R (used as an amp)
Sources: 432 Evo server streaming Tidal / DAC: Aqua La Voce
Cables: Swiss Cables
As soon as I entered some background music was being played at very low levels to warm up the system. I settled down in the seating chair and thought some music was played maybe in the room using some other small speakers (radio or something?)
I jumped and put my ears close to the speakers and was surprised that the Cubes were on. So initial impressions were, wow, even at very low levels the speakers completely disappeared!
First the the XA25 amp was used. My dealer suggested he play few tracks of his own and then I can suggest any songs I like. He played 3-4 songs and it was very good. Speakers disappearing act, black background, good instrument separation, great midrange. After 3-4 tracks my dealer played, I was like “damn, do I pull my wallet out now or what?”
Then…
I started requesting songs I know inside out and have been listening for few days in preparation for the audition. Before I get into that, my current system is as follows:
Speaker: Coincident Super Victory III (introduced as mk3 from mk 2 just over a year back)
Preamp: EAR Yoshino 868PL
Amp: Simaudio 330A
Sources: Acoustic Solid Metal 111 TT with Jelco TK-850S tonearm, Hana SL Cart; Chord Qutest DAC with Sbooter LPS.
Cabling: OCC Silver and Copper full loom from the same brand. I use a power conditioner and run dedicated 15A lines.
Various room treatment and isolation tweaks..such as Nordost Kones, Vibrapods etc.
I found the Cubes were very good. However, I found that (leaving different room and different gear aside) my current Coincident to have more bass slam and the high were a tad bit “airier”. Maybe due to the 12’ woofer and the ribbon tweeter? Overall, very similar to my current gear’s presentation but without the bass slam and tad bit less air. The Cubes were superior in instrument separation though but that could be due to my current amp. I think the Coincident deserve better amplification, maybe Class A or tubes.
Next dealer switched to Bakoon amp. Wow! I am VERY impressed with this amp. Small footprint and it can be run as an intergrated. No idea how they did it in such a small unit! While I enjoyed the Pass XA25 presentation, the Bakoon was cleaner and faster. I thought the bass would have slam, the bass was more or less like that of the XA25 presentation. I mentioned it to my dealer and he said it might be achieved putting the speakers closer to the wall (like Peter Bruninger has it in his listening room). At the dealer, the speakers were pulled front (maybe 3 feet?) from the front wall.
The cubes over all had good soundstage (between the speakers, the soundstage did not extend beyond the speakers), good front to back depth, VERY good instrument separation, GREAT “disappearing” act. I didn’t find the bass slam that I currently get with my Coincidents. I am not a bass freak and more of a midrange person..but…bass is important :)
After the audition, my dealer and I spoke about amplification. Bakoon is a bit out of my reach financially (more so if I go for the Cubes). He suggested a few good options (all tubes). I may consider those amp options first to try out with my Coincidents first...
Apologies, I don’t think I went into details but if anyone has any questions I would be happy to answer if I can.
ricevs673 posts06-01-2021 3:04pmThe standard Cube Nenuphar retails for $15.9K......as far as I can see. The drivers list for 6690 Euros ($8176 USD) the pair plus shipping and duty. The mini retails for $12.0K.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OK so we have some vital important info, which i could not find on the Inet. I would say the speaker/driver looks interesting, but not when I compare Cube to my 1st choice in **Full* Range* which is the Voxativ line. Should be September when i add the Vox AC1A's. I will build the cabinet , using sanded ply from HD, cost of material,,,,under $100. Will take me 6 hours/or less to build. Weight each cabinet = 30 lbs +/- 5 lbs. The Vox will be for entire midrange, Seas W18 Excel as bass, some type of AMT/horn for ultra highs 10k+hz range. Basically it will be a 3 way. xover points will overlap. I have no idea how low/high the Vox voices. That is to say, if it does roll off either end of the spectrum, no big deal, as i have both end spectrum handled by other speakers.
"There are trade-offs with either approach. Matching YOUR needs and preferences should take priority".
Agree 100% David. With this speaker I'd prefer tubes (I just like what tubes do). However no question that there has been much success reported by those who have chosen solid state amplifiers. Superb outcomes are possible with either. Charles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can agree with this assessment. But as with you, I prefer employing tubes. a High quality tube amp , on the used market can be had for under $1500, I just don't think there are ss amps under $1500 that can compete. I see tubes as the wave of the future.
charles1dad7,779 posts12-21-2020 6:18pmHi Mike, Thanks for sharing your fabulous outcome, sincere congratulations. People who look at the Nenuphar as merely a single driver speaker and question its value just simply miss the point. A speaker doesn’t require multiple drivers, weigh 300-400 pounds with measured bass to 20 HZ in order to be considered superb. There are alternative paths to achieving sonic excellence. Charles
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes Folks worrying over capturing the 20-40hz zone may be going down a wrong path. I wanted to add a single sub to my Thor speakers,,so I ordered a sub amp + 10 inch woofer, , a local tech urged me not to go that route. He said why do you want to add something that will lower the quality of bass the Thors already have. Further research on Troel Gravensens page, where he entions his dual per cabinet Nextel W18003s (Titanium voice coils, which Troels helped Seas to design) gave a **seemingly rich deep bass as if 20-40hz*** = due to dual 6 inch cone material for bass. IOW dual W18's provided sonic bass which sounded so rock solid, , to 40hz, as if 20hz were being voiced. There is so little music in the 20-40hz zone in my classical collection where i feel there is no loss missing these few rare notations. Caveat here is employing high quality Mundorf caps to acheive this extra punch from the W18E001 Excel. These caps are not cheap. Troels also mentions, high quality speakers deserve high quality caps.
@sim_audio_nerd Thanks for the update. Looking forward to hearing more about your "impressions" and your comparative take (between the two amps AND versus your current system chain) from the audition.
@david_ten Yes and big thanks. They were helpful. I am going to auditon them soon (first time didn't really do critical listening as I wanted to see something else).
My Coincident Super Victory IIIs will really need a strong speaker to fall out of love with another speakers..but history has proven that it can happen with audio gear 😀
I will report back with my impressions. It will be paired with XA25 and Bakoon amp for the auditon.
One thing to note for me, if I do go for the Cubes, the quest to find the right amplifier will soon have to start for me. My Moon amp will not cut it with the Cubes, that I am sure...
Personally, I don't see anything special in the cabinet they use. They don't even mention cabinet construction, material, damping or tweaking or their site. Basically, its just a TQWT (tapered quarter wave tube) box. Very good, I am sure. Its pretty well known how to make a TQWT enclosure for any driver. I bet they did try a few versions and damping inside before deciding on the final one. Always more work then you think. Here is a link to the cube suggestion for their driver. The Nenuphar cabinet, I bet, is not much different. You notice they suggest just 22mm (7/8th inch) plywood or MDF as material.
I have no reason to question that the superb Nenuphar drive utilized in an open baffle speaker with good implementation would sound very well. I'm not convinced at all that it would exceed the Nenuphar speaker in sound quality.
As admirable as the driver and powerful motor assembly are the contribution of the cabinet construction and geometry can't be underestimated.
A ton of work, methodical trial and error and design brainstorming went into the development and execution of the cabinet. All of these seperate aspects and their considerations combined to get the overall/finished product. This process deserves more acknowledgement and respect. Charles
The standard Cube Nenuphar retails for $15.9K......as far as I can see. The drivers list for 6690 Euros ($8176 USD) the pair plus shipping and duty. The mini retails for $12.0K.
I have done all these mods to various speakers for at least 30 years. The mods would do exactly the same with this speaker.
What you think is ugly, is someone else's beauty. Want to see some cool looking open baffle speakers?...check these out:
You could mount the drivers on a one foot wide baffle and install woofers underneath to fill in under 250hz.....then the speaker is just one foot wide and no wings. You could finish it any way you like. Infinite possibilities if your mind and heart are open.
Are we having fun? If not, try something else. Serving others brings joy to everyone. Who are you serving by your thoughts, words, feelings and deeds?
Where are you getting this price on the Nenuphar's? MSRP?? I got mine in the "8's with a Custom Paint Job to boot.
Have you actually heard this "magic speaker" you have concocted above?? Didnt think so....All Theory with no actual experience. Not to mention it would be as ugly as hell even if it did work.
For those who like to build things (or have someone build something for you)......buying the Cube drivers and mounting them on an open baffle will give you considerably better sound (not as deep of bass)....if done correctly. An open baffle will allow a more "open" sound. An example"
four foot high baffle 2 foot wide baffle 2 wings, one foot by 4 feet going straight back You mount the driver about one foot or so from the top of the panel. This will probably give you flat to 40 hz in room. All baffles made from at least 3 layers of three quarter inch different woods to kill resonances....for instance, a combo of bamboo, baltic birch and highly refined MDF......
The serious magic comes from how you hook it up. The stock Nenuphar has a binding post on the outside....then a wire going to a banana plug that plugs into the banana jack on the speaker driver. All of these things veil the sound. What you do is SOLDER some really good speaker wire directly to the voice coil wire where it attaches to the banana jack.....the other end the the speaker wire attaches to your amp. This will blow your mind. Of course, you could do this same tweak with a Nenuphar but how many people are going to remove the driver and hardwire a cable and remove the binding posts and run the wire through the vacated binding post holes? Any takers?...he he. I am saying, you have never heard what this driver is capable of by having all that stuff in the signal path that you do not need and veils the sound.
There are only about 5 percent of audiophiles that are DIYers.....and most DIYers are cheapskats......he he. So, I don’t expect much from this post other than letting you know what the possibilities are. Maybe, some day, someone will find out how much magic is in this driver......Will it be you? The cost of the drivers and wood and wire would be $10K......much less than the Nenuphar. And you could always mount the driver in a small box and use it down the road in your bedroom or van....he he.
Of course, you could add powered or passive woofers to the open baffle Cubes and get all the slam you ever wanted. If you did this you could cut off some of the bass from the Cube driver by putting a tiny cap in front of the main amp or by changing the coupling cap in a tube amp to a lower value that would limit the lows going to the driver. You would get cleaner sound and have more mid bass impact by running your woofs up to at least 100hz.
Enjoy this moment!.....it is magic. I has always been magic....Blessings to all.
@sim_audio_nerd, I've never owned the Coincident "Victory" models but have the Coincident Total Eclipse II and love them. If I were to change speakers the Nenuphars would be high on a very short list. I don't believe that you'll have any regrets if you acquire them. Charles
"There are trade-offs with either approach. Matching YOUR needs and preferences should take priority".
Agree 100% David. With this speaker I'd prefer tubes (I just like what tubes do). However no question that there has been much success reported by those who have chosen solid state amplifiers. Superb outcomes are possible with either. Charles
@sim_audio_nerd Wonderful to hear the thread has been helpful!!!
Yes, regarding: "Given my room dimensions, will the Nenuphars work?"
No, regarding: "Do I have to get a tube amp for the Nenuphars?" However, [in my personal opinion] tube amplification is the way to go with respect the Nenuphars.
There are trade-offs with either approach. Matching YOUR needs and preferences should take priority.
First of all as someone else has mentioned, I find this thread very helpful, civilized and amazed that people are so respectful to each other’s opinion/suggestions. Kudos to everyone on this thread!
My current speakers are Coincident Super Victory IIIs and I am strongly considering the Nenuphars. Nothing wrong with my current speakers but I am looking for wider soundstage and increased depth and details in low level listening.
My room dimensions are Height - 7’10 Width - 15’7 Length - 18 feet
I have some treatments in the room. My preamp is EAR Yoshino 868PL and power amp is Simaudio Moon.
I heard the speakers briefly at my dealer but going to audition more seriously soon. My guess is that if I do fall in love and decide to get it, I would have to change my power amp.
I am new to tubes and having a tube pre is more than enough for me. Do I have to get a tube amp for the Nenuphars? Apart from the Bakoon and SIT-3 mentioned here, are there other SS amps that I should consider? Given my room dimensions, will the Nenuphars work?
Thanks Charles, I too enjoy your input, which reflects a lot more accumulated knowledge than I have about our hobby (I almost said sport, moving/auditioning a lot of equipment can give it that edge).
And yes, riaa_award, I think you're spot on regarding Huff (he did sell the VR to help finance a move) and every other month comes a once in a lifetime component. However, I'm a sucker for his enthusiasm and no doubt heart-felt certainty he's just stumbled on sliced bread. I read too many reviews where I'm at a loss whether the item reviewed even elicited an emotional response (the purpose of music think some). If I'm left wondering, probably not.
Hi @stephendunn, I always appreciate your listening impressions and comments on this forum. I tend to fall in line with riaa_award and his comments regarding Steve Huff. He seems like a nice guy but his reviews of audio products do tend to fit the pattern articulated by riaa_award. In audio much is possible but I’d be surprised if the Pass integrated amplifier out performed the Vinnie Rossi hybrid amplifier driving the Nenuphars. Charles
Anybody that follows HUFF knows whatever he currently has is the Best he’s ever had and doesnt feel the need to ever change anything...then does 3-4 weeks later. Guessing he sold the ROSSI when he moved and needed to raise cash. Dont think ANYBODY believes the INT 25 is better than the VR....including Huff. Guarantee he didnt do any Tube Swapping either to enhance the performance even more. Should have my Blue Nenuphar Mini’s by the end of the month.
Hi David. I'm still waiting on delivery of those dacs to audition. I'm hoping at least one arrives before I take off June 1 for a couple of months.
But I did have the chance to audition the Pass Labs INT 25 in my system. As many know, this is a highly touted integrated that some believe, with the right speakers, can deliver audio-nervosa-curing sound. Steve Huff, who said he would never get rid of this VR L2i-SE actually did sell it after deciding the INT 25 was his new desert island amp (driving the Heresy IV's). Not to make a long story of a short audition, the INT 25 sounded terrible with the Nenuphar's. I would go so far as to say it sounded broken. The bass was only there at higher volumes, the mid range was dead flat and, worst of all, the high end sounded metallic and completely airless. Ouch. I had done a little homework about the INT 25's specs and although I failed to locate its output impedance, I did find an interview with Nelson Pass where he said it had low output impedance, which sounded hopeful. But it does have a unique form of feedback (which I don't understand) that might be the culprit. The one positive thing I can say about the amp is that you could hear its much admired detail. Horses for courses, since I don't doubt this is a wonderful, even magic amp with the right speakers.
But another amp I am curious about, which might be a better technical match, is the 50w Gryphon Essence. I have zero qualms with my VR L2i-SE (especially with the new LinLai 2A3 tubes) but I am always curious.
Thanks for your input. Right now my plate runneth over: I'm awaiting the arrival of the latest Concert Fidelity Dac as well as the Analog Domain Dac1.
But my latest addition of the Innuos PhoenixNet conditioning the Ethernet signal between wall and Antipodes DX has bumped streaming and even file playback (I know that doesn't make sense at first) a fair level. I've never had anything between my workaday modem/router and the DX and it shows.
I’m currently using an Allnic D5000 DHT dac which I’ve had for nearly three years now and have been very happy with it.
The original early models used to chew through tubes a bit but that was later rectified (pun intended) with an upgrade and the later models didn’t suffer with that problem.
It received a glowing review on Stereophile then managed to achieve the worst test results of any component ever tested in the lab which was later put down to a bad tube.
The review unit was sold on and it was never re-tested by Stereophile so it now has a dubious and mythical status.
As we all know some things can’t be tested in a lab.
There was also talk of a new unit coming out to replace it but as yet nothing has emerged from KS Park’s workshop.
Anyway, as I said I’ve been very happy with it and I have great synergy with a balanced connection to my Allnic T2000 integrated KT150 tube amp.
cal3713 Have certainly read impressive things about the Aries-cerat new dac. Not sure if I could finagle a home audition though and I no longer buy anything without.
I have researched the SW1X dacs and have come close to ordering the SW1X Dac 3 Balanced (they do have a return policy) but have hesitated because of it's lack of DSD processing. Probably wouldn't miss it.
My local dealer is now representing Analog Domain, so their dac maybe my next audition when he gets it in. Some say it was as good as the MSB Select at a recent audio show.
David, not sure how I gave the impression I was moving on from the VR L2i-SE. Have zero plans for replacement especially after installing the Linlai 2A3 tubes. It's position is almost as steadfast as that of the Nenuphar's, especially after auditioning some very impressive Stenheim 3 Way Speakers at my local dealers. They were great speakers, don't get me wrong, but their perspective was mid row orchestra while the Nenuphars are front to fifth row or in the club or studio. Something very live about how they position you to the music which the Stenheims couldn't duplicate. So, no, the only change I might consider is upgrading my Totaldac d-1 dual. But so far the four or five contenders I've had in the listening room couldn't beat it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
@stephendunn Stephen, terrific impressions and results regarding the Linlai 2A3 tubes in your specific application. Your feedback seals it for me...I'll plan on ordering a pair for my new amps at a later date.
Curious: Are you listing your VR integrated? If so, what are your plans for a replacement?
Have about fifty hours on my new Linlai 2A3 tubes running in the DHT pre-amp section of my Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE integrated. While there may still be break in improvements to come, I feel confident in saying that these are remarkable tubes that easily beat out the Elrog 300bs I had been running. I agree with Srajan's assessment of their particular qualities in his review, but would like to add two dimensions of their character that he didn't mention. First, the Linlai 2A3 give acoustically recorded music a tactile quality I've never heard before. The sensation of fingers on strings and frets, fingers on keyboards, drumsticks on drum skins, etc. is both delicate and pronounced, which helps put the music more 3 dimensionally in the room. Second, tonal accuracy along with depth and purity is the most engrossing I've encountered with any tube. But without cloying euphonics. As a side note, the tube's output is substantially greater than that of the ER 300bs, at least in terms of where the volume control now likes to sit. Lots of other good qualities but I would just be paraphrasing what Srajan has already said.
Would love to hear your comparison and thoughts on the Bakoon vs. the Valvet. I've had the SIT3 before and found it a bit dark/earthy for my taste. If I could get my hands on a SIT2 or 1s - I believe that would be more to my taste. Cheers.
I’ve got about 60 hours on the speakers now and I can report that I don’t hear any "lowther shout." The top end was pretty strident at first but it now sounds very natural. The bass at first was MIA but now it’s coming in nicely. I wonder if the youtube videos that seemed to reproduce a ’shouty’ sound were made with newer speakers that weren’t fully broken in?
Robert I did listen to the VR L2i SE driving the SIT-1's though its DHT preamp stage with the ELROG 300bs. It improved the SIT's soundstage and it's lower mid-range very slightly from the PL XP-32 which I thought was heaven with the SIT-1s. But the L2i-SE straight up beat out the XP-32/SIT-1 combo with more extended and open highs, a more detailed lower mid-range and more powerful and tuneful bass (I took notes.) Overall it sounded more present and dynamic, closer to live music. It was not a difference you had to A/B to get the gist of. I was shocked, thinking I was doing my dealer friend a favor by giving the VR a spin with the Nenuphar's. He was just curious.
I'd never heard of the amps and always enjoy reading about anything new that's carefully made. Whatever you think about 6moons, you've got to appreciate the concerted effort to show internals and discuss design decisions. At least there's some objective information there to learn from and use to supplement the usual subjective adjectives.
@cal3713 thanks for pointing out the typo! I should've checked it.
@stephendunn I'll keep you posted as I make progress on the room treatment. I'm trying to be minimalist about it because the room has to double as a living room so I don't want to overwhelm the space with audio gear (though I probably lost that battle already...). The main issue is that the room has 10' ceilings and big windows so there's quite a bit of high frequency ringing in addition to the usual low/mid boominess. I put a 6' piece of homasote board on one large, empty wall which helped calm things down. Also I bought a few pieces of 4" thick rock wool insulation to experiment. Last night I put pieces of the insulation at the first reflection points and that made a noticeable and positive difference, more so than in the back corners, but it also felt a bit overdamped to me. So I can see the point of products like the Stillpoints Apertures that do a mix of absorption and diffusion.
btw I didn't mean to sound too fanboyish in my previous post - just thought the EHTs deserve a mention and i'd love to hear from anyone else who has experience with them. They're the only Thoress amps I've heard and they're the kind of component that just has an certain "rightness" about the sound.
@jollytinker, Congratulations on your excellent outcome. I recall reading the 6 Moons review of the Thoress amplifier. No doubt about Srajan Ebaen's admiration for the unit. Charles
Great info Jolly. Ive dealt with Audio Arts in NYC (Thoress dealer) before and Gideon is a pleasure to do business with. I might just have to inquire about the F2A11 or 845 Thoress Integrateds.....not a 300B kind of guy.
I've been trying out a new pair of Nenuphars for about a week now and I'm mighty impressed. I'll chime in more as I find the words to describe what I'm hearing. I'll just mention for now that I'm powering the Nenuphars with a pair of Thoress EHT mono blocks. These amps are somewhat under the radar (they're pricey and don't seem to have much retail support in the US) but Ebaen reviewed them at 6moons in combination with the Nenuphars and used some striking language to describe the pairing. He rates the EHTs as a better match for the Cubes than the FW SIT1 monos.
FWIW I can see what he's talking about. I compared the EHTs with a SIT3 and found the difference to be profound (much as I love the SIT3). For now I'm still working on getting speaker placement and room treatments dialed in(at 20 sq meters my room is at the bottom end of the range for these speakers as specified by Cube Audio). so, more to come.
Thanks to all here for a refreshingly good thread!
Please give the SE version PLENTY of time to break in. Several hundred hours or more, at least. This is from experience.
I had already listed mine for sale and made a deal when that magical moment arrived. I did not want to break my promise but will consider replacing it when the time is right.
I don't know how it will pair on the Core Audio speakers but it is an absolutely wonderful and amazing amp.
And most critically for the objectivist "it's all in your head" crowd, the change was contrary to the previously developed preferences and expectations.
Sure, you could also blame a bad mood at the time of testing, but in line with Charles' sentiment, it's clear that our ears are meant for hearing and they do a wonderful job. (Despite the constant biasing influence of extra-auditory factors)
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