From @jollytinker on 03/10/2021 "I’ve been trying out a new pair of Nenuphars for about a week now and I’m mighty impressed. I’ll chime in more as I find the words to describe what I’m hearing. I’ll just mention for now that I’m powering the Nenuphars with a pair of Thoress EHT mono blocks. These amps are somewhat under the radar (they’re pricey and don’t seem to have much retail support in the US) but Ebaen reviewed them at 6moons in combination with the Nenuphars and used some striking language to describe the pairing. He rates the EHTs as a better match for the Cubes than the FW SIT1 monos. http://https//6moons.com/audioreview_articles/thoress2/FWIW I can see what he’s talking about. I compared the EHTs with a SIT3 and found the difference to be profound (much as I love the SIT3). For now I’m still working on getting speaker placement and room treatments dialed in (at 20 sq meters my room is at the bottom end of the range for these speakers as specified by Cube Audio). so, more to come. Thanks to all here for a refreshingly good thread " |
@david_ten Yes. That’s been my setup for the past five months or so. From what I remember of his account I think Ebaen described it well. Remarkable sound.
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Has anyone had the opportunity to listen to the Nenuphars driven by the Thöress EHT monoblock amps? Here is Srajan Ebaen’s review from Dec. 2018, in which he discusses the Thöress - Nenuphar pairing in detail. https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/thoress2/ |
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@pulinap
what amplifier are you using and the rest of your system, may I ask? |
@pulinap All three are excellent options.
I believe Srajan Ebaen of 6Moons, given his exposure to all three brands (as well as the models), may be able to help. I recommend sending him an email through his site. There are options for the communication being Private or being ’Published.’
Given your previous exposure to Rethm and Voxativ, and understanding of both, a personal audition of the Nenuphar / Nenuphar Mini makes even more sense.
Let us know what you find out and which one you decide to go with! |
Hello Fellow Travellers,
It's been a very interesting 19 page read...thanks for all the information.
Now this may have been already raised and answered - if so, I do apologise.
I am wondering if anyone has direct comparison of Nenuphar/Mini against Rethm Saadhana or Voxativ Ampeggio
I had Saadhana V1 and loved them...and have extensive experience with Ampeggio. Could live with any of them.
But Nenuphars are compact.
Obviously Rethms go deeper as it has fully integrated subwoofer and both Voxativ and Rethms are more sensitive...not that it matters as I'll be driving them with Cymer 13e1 amps (28w - 8ohms taps only) and would love to know your thoughts....
I am more interested in holographic imaging, overall balance, and bass performance...(not overly interested in midrange or uber details)
Thanks in advance.
P |
@khragon No harm in trying since you already have them.
My reason for not recommending the GAIA footers is because of the soft rubber base...which will bend and result in only a portion of the GAIA to be in contact with the floor due to the design of the Nenuphars. This will be exacerbated due to the tilt of speaker. GAIA footers are effective when they are evenly compressed and fully in contact with the floor surface.
AND their height, which introduces another variable.
BTW, I have GAIA footers.
Looking forward to hearing how it goes. |
Thanks for the response guys.. couple reasons, mostly I got the Gaia with a deal so thought I give them a try, and my listening room is in the garage, with the floor slope downward already, at what I think is around half (or maybe a bit more) compared to the Cube design, so I think having the speakers level would be more inline with the original design. I could always use a shorter spike, but thought I try the Gaia. I order a set of the NSMT outriggers: https://www.nsmt-loudspeakers.com/content/speaker-outriggers. We'll see how that go.. if not I can always resell them. |
@khragon I replaced the rear rubber feet with edenSound regular brass hemispikes. These are NOT threaded (they have a flat surface). I used double sided adhesive discs.
I don't recommend using isoAcoustic GAIA for the front since it's important to maintain the angle (and height) that Cube's designers/builders chose. You can play with both the height and angle, should you choose to experiment, however results will vary.
I used Townshend Audio's Seismic Isolation Platforms specific to the Nenuphar's weight and size (footprint). I ended up removing them. Others, I believe, continue to use them. Mentioning this as your results may vary based on a number of factors.
If you search for Eden Sound and Townshend within this thread, you will find posts and discussion regarding isolation. |
Why not try a Townshend Platform instead of Gaia or similar products. Suppose to be better for optimal performance.
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Has anyone replace the rear rubber feet with something else? How do you handle the mount? I wanted to try isoacoustic Gaia but can only replace the front spikes since they are threaded and the rear ones are just wood screw. |
I wouldnt recommend Tektron Amps as the Top of the Amps PIT and Tarnish after a short while. They are changing this summer to what appears to be something like a Chrome top. Have no idea if those will Patina with age as well. I'd avoid em if you care about long term cosmetics or being able to resell them down the road.
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Came across a strong recommendation and stellar pairing synergy for the Bakoon AMP-13- and HiFiMan's flagship Susvara planar magnetic headphone. I own a previous flagship, the HE1000. Mentioning this because it gives me insight into the Bakoon - Nenuphar synergy.
FYI, both the 13R and Susvara retail for around USD 6K, each. |
@yorkshireman Do you have any updates? |
@david_ten - Thanks David. |
@yorkshireman You are welcome. If you are still considering options...please know that I’m not trying to dissuade you from the Allnic T1500...here are a couple of avenues that may be worth exploring.
Audion Audio’s (UK; with France based office) Silver Night integrated line. Their entry level utilizes a PCB, but are point to point hardwired above that level. Known for their 300B version. Used upper levels units may be within your budget.
If you want to specify the build and parts, then look into Ken Uesugi of Sound Gate / Otomon Laboratory (Japan). Vintage chassis / looks, if that’s okay with you. He sometimes lists on Audiogon. He should be able to deliver within your budget.
And a +1 to @cal3713 ’s post. |
I suspect that the internal environment of the T1500 is less crowed with fewer parts as SET is simpler. Higher power push pull amplifier will have a higher parts count.
Charles |
Thanks david_ten, toetapaudio, charles1dad and cal3713. I know the more expensive Allnic separates use point to point wiring but the integrated amps use a PCB. There's an image of the inside of a T2000. https://www.stereonet.com/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_10/L9740204.thumb.JPG.cba63850ad0d73ed4e7a1eee...KS Park told me that the T1500 also uses a PCB, so probably very similar. I've been using an Allnic T2000 which uses 4x KT120 tubes at 50-100W (Pentode/Triode) which was OK but I think was maybe too powerful and has maybe been damping things a little. I've been trying (just as an experiment) my old SS Olive Naim Nait 2 20w which doesn't actually do a bad job. I know purity of signal path is very important with tube amps. |
@yorkshireman As you'll no doubt see, prices can be all over the place for various SET designs. Charles rightly points out that the circuits are simple, so if you can, look for "under the hood" pictures that show you parts and power supply quality of the build. If you're not confident evaluating, then post links here and I'm sure many will opine.
If you can at all swing it, I would recommend mono-blocks (or a single chassis dual-mono design). I built my own amplifiers (from pre-made Nelson Pass boards), and the change in sound quality when going from a standard stereo build to a mono-block design with independent power supplies was quite substantial. There is good reason why all cost-no-object designs have independent power supplies, as the two channels create distortion when they are simultaneously pulling on the same transformer. |
Srajan once told me he was very fond of the Allnic cables. Seems like a company with a good product line up.
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6 Moon’s Srajan Ebaen did review the 30K flagship Allnic L 10000 DHT line stage that utilizes the 300b and lacks an output transformer thus an OTL component. The Allnic 1500 integrated amplifier uses the 300b in a traditional power amplifier output stage fashion with output transformers . Although different types of audio components, I agree with David. The review provides useful information/insight concerning Allnic’s design, technical and engineering competency. They are a high quality manufacturer of audio products.
Charles |
@yorkshireman In addition to Charles' excellent advice, some things to consider:
- I believe Srajan used Allnic amplification components with the Nenuphars. Might be worth revisiting those sections of his reviews specific to the Nenuphars AND specific to Allnic, to get a better feel for the pairings and synergy. Those reviews are from 2+ years ago.
- If you are still considering a new integrated I'd keep an eye out for those that allow for negative feedback control.
- I've been revisiting Peter Breuninger's Nenuphar Mini review for evaluating laptop based headphone listening purposes and the sound quality of that setup stands out. I believe the component used was the 'Tektron Stratosphere TK2A3 300BPSE i Ref' which allows for use of multiple output tube types. This would allow you to go with 300Bs as well as lower power tubes. I believe Tektron is fairly priced and may be within your budget.
All the best in your search and let us know how it all comes together with your Allnic T1500 or another amplification route.
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You are welcome. I believe that you'll be exceptionally pleased long term with the Allnic-Nenuphar pairing.
Charles |
@ charles1dadAnother bonus is that it only uses 2 300b tubes. Thanks again Charles for all your help and advice. |
@yorkshireman,
Just saw your post (Watching the NBA champion game😊).
I believe that the Allnic is an excellent choice.
1Established and highly respected manufacturer.
2 High standard built quality chassis construction.
3 Very high quality output transformers.
4 Robust power supply.
5 Very thoughtful soft start mechanism.
This should sound quite wonderful paired with the Nenuphars.
When you're able/willing to, buy the best 300b tubes you can afford.
The one drawback to the 300b is the premium level choices are not low cost. In this case you get what you pay for.
With an SET of this caliber and the high level Nenuphars there's little rationale for compromising on 300b tube quality. You'll be rewarded.
Charles |
@charles1dad
The amp is an Allnic T1500
http://allnicaudio.com/product/t-1500-mk2/
I think without going up to Kondo, Shindo, Tron, separates a secondhand integrated is about where my budget ends which is at around £3500 GBP - $5000 USD
Do you think this would be high enough quality? |
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As far as specific recommendations go there are no shortage of worthy candidates. Have you determined a budget comfort range?
300b SET are more plentiful and are also generally more expensive than 2A3 SET amplifiers. Again, depends on what level/tier of quality you seek. The better the amplifier, the better the Nenuphar will sound.
Charles |
@yorkshireman,
I can not say with any authority that a lower power amplifier would unequivocally be better, certainly as good. @david_ten is enjoying truly splendid results with his superb 2A3 SET . I feel more strongly that the absolute quality of the amplifier is priority number 1.
The best quality SET you feel that you can afford. SET circuits are straightforward and no mystery. Key criteria are high quality parts, output transformers and very stout power supply. The Nenuphar will readily exploit these amplifier attributes.
Charles |
@charles1dad
Do you think an even lower watt amp would/might be even better? and do you have any suggestions? |
@charles1dad
Thanks for the quick and informed response, very much appreciated.
Yes it is a SET amp and as you pointed out slightly unusual with the -6dB, very small, and natural negative feedback, just for better bass. |
@yorkshireman,
At 10 watts I'm assuming that this is a SET amplifier utilizing a modest 6db of negative feedback (Many SETs are zero negative feedback). The damping factor is pretty modest as to suit the Nenuphars (Per design objective). I can not anticipate any problems with this amplifier.
Charles |
I am using a full PS Audio stack:
P15 Power Regen
DSD DAC Sr
BHK Pre
I used to have BHK250 amp buy sold that in favor of the SIT2.
Sorry I didn't compare the Aperion to any other brand. I did compare their TOTL model the dual AMT to the lower aluminum ribbon model. I think I could live with the aluminum ribbon model, they were very close. With exception of the sensitivity so for maximum compatibility later on I went with the AMT, that and I thought it's a bit more airy.. but that could be the price bias taking. |
Khragon, did you ever compare Apherion with the Townshend? Thanks.
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Would an 300B amplifier with the following specs be suitable for the Nenuphars?
10W per channel
Damping Factor 10 at 8Ω load at 1kHz
-6dB of negative feedback
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khragon Meant to ask what pre you have in front of the SIT-2?
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khragon Impressive set up! Thanks for sending photos. Rare to see the Nens with the grills. Don't think mine even came with. More importantly I see how you've installed the Apherions (and subs) and I'm thinking I will try the supertweeters given they have an in-home audition period. I have had speakers in the past that benefited from forward only firing super tweeters, but think the dual design is the way to go, adding depth and probably air to soundstage. I am in a relatively small room and although width of ss does not seemed cramped, depth does. With the SIT-2s in place, along with the help at either end of the spectrum, I bet your Nens sing.
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khragon Thanks for posting about your use of the Apherion supertweeter. I’m curious about how you have them installed. If they sit on top of the speaker, the rake would make them point far over the listener’s head at the front. My understanding is supertweeters are highly directional. Or do you have them propped so they fire straight ahead? Maybe the Apherion drivers provide more dispersion. Insights into installation would be appreciated.
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I'm running my Nenuphar with the Apherion dual AMT Supertweeter. I found the addition of the supertweeter to enhance the listening experience, especially with sound staging and the subtle but imo important treble decays. I went back and reread some of the reviews and this was mentioned. I had mine crossover at 12khz and -2dB.
I also run the Nenuphar with a pair of Rel S510 subs. I like them but could easily live without. I had crossover set at 20hz and volume up at 4 clicks.
The Nenuphar provides a strong foundation for owner to customize the sonic spices to their liking, a sprinkle of bass here and treble there provides different experience and I enjoy the journey and customization depends on my mood. At times I do turn off all effects to enjoy the Nenuphar sans crossover, and love that I have that option. |
A strong recommendation for using headphones / earphones / IEMs for the video playback.
The comparisons between audio output via my laptop speakers vs. the 3.5mm laptop analog out vs. the Audioquest Dragonfly Red DAC/Pre/Headamp to Sony WH-1000XM4 headphones and Noble Audio 4C IEMs are (obviously) vastly different.
I'll try playback via USB Audio Pro / eXtream Software Development (The Netherlands) next.
Sony leash is stock. Custom Linum / Estron (Denmark) leash for the Noble 4C.
I'm not in my audio home base, for the time being, and cannot access my primary headphone systems. |
@abd1,
My then new (2009) Frankenstein MK II came standard with EH 300b tubes and they were solid performers. I soon upgraded to the Shuguang black Treasure 300b which was an immediate and obvious improvement. I later moved on to the Takatsuki and like you said, "WOW"!! Better in every conceivable way.
David I know as high as your expectations were, the Found Music 2A3 SET and Nenuphar pairing has exceeded them. 3.5 watts of supreme quality and implementation.
Certainly specific situations dictate choices but too often more power (Watt quantity) is the default recommendation when in fact watt quality is the answer. David you were generously rewarded by sticking with your well reasoned convictions.
Charles
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@rwpollock Robert, good point and on the money. Srajan Ebaen's initial review also shined a bright light on the SIT amps, and then Bakoon.
As Charles mentions, it is perhaps incongruous that few on this thread have followed the designer / builder's lead with 45 and 2A3 pairings.
I received very strong pushback on going the 2A3 route, from many, since they were highly skeptical of the ability of 3.5 watts to properly drive a 92dB / 6 Ohm rated speaker.
Charles was steadfast on the pairing and I'm so glad I followed his advice. Once again: Thank You Charles. |
I just hooked up a pair of Sophia Electric 91-01 mono blocks to my Nenuphar minis. I really haven’t had time to listen much at all so too early to assess but in the brief time listening I am liking what I’m hearing. The reason I went for these amps is the owner was including an almost new pair of Takatsuki 300b’s. I started listening with a pair of included Shuguang black treasure series 300b’s. They were fine but a little lean sounding. I just put in the takatsuki’s and wow, huge difference. Tone is richer and soundstage wider and deeper. Everything just got bigger and more alive sounding. When I get more time with this combo I’ll report back. I’m also moving and will have a much better listening space but that won’t be until mid September.
I’m also wondering if anyone is using a sub with their Nenuphars? I’m using a pair of REL T5i’s. I’ve been really impressed by these little subs. I don’t have them turned up much but they really blend well. |
I did ask Jon why he didn't use tube amps. He smiled and said he was good friends with Nelson Pass....
Jon also used Pass/FirstWatt amps and preamps back in his Lowther America days.
Robert |
Hi Steven , I have zero doubt that some listeners will find super tweeters and subwoofer augmentation beneficial with the Nenuphars. I was just expressing the point that many will find them just fine "au naturel" 😊.
Charles |
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@stevendunn,
In a way I’m not surprised by your listening impressions using a super tweeter. I just do not believe that the Nenuphar needs this assistance in the ’vast' majority of listening situations. Cube Audio developed a remarkable wide/full range driver. Many owners find they do just fine without utilization of a subwoofer. Definitely need/preference based.
Charles |
@rwpollock,
That's a good observation. Ironic in the sense that the design concept from the very beginning of the Nenuphar was to mate with low power SET amplifiers. It's been established on this thread and elsewhere that solid state amplifiers can be paired very successfully with the Nenuphars.
I do know that David has outstanding results with his superb 2A3 SET mono blocks. I believe my Coincident Frankenstein 300b SET mono blocks would be a successful match with these speakers.
Charles |
