I started a discussion here this morning to get some feedback on whether an external DAC would make an appreciable improvement over an internal processor’s DAC. During the discussion, I said that I typically visit a local audio dealer, to experience the equipment and then, comparison shop to find the best deal. The particular dealer I was referring to, emails me weekly, sends postcards monthly and catalogs quarterly. It’s always with an invitation to “see and hear the difference”. So I visit, and occasionally buy some small ticket items. But, when it comes to spending thousands on nationally available equipment, I don’t feel any obligation to limit my shopping to that one location.
When I shared my buying habits with the forum, I received responses that said using any brick and mortar stores to demo and then buying elsewhere “cuzz” it’s cheaper is just plain wrong…
I was surprised at that statement. I’m a value oriented person. I enjoy quality items. But I search for them at the best price - is that wrong? If there’s no competitive pricing or added value, why should I feel obligated?
Sorry, I’m another vote for it being "low class" to use a hi-fi shop to demo stuff you plan to buy elsewhere cheaper.
For one thing, I have to admit flat out that cheapskates annoy me.(I don’t mean someone who can’t afford something; I mean someone who can afford something, but is always more motivated to save money over caring about integrity, or even just being realistic about how this affects others).
I’ve never been one to want to haggle over price. Or who ordered what on the restaurant bill.
In my view: a hi-fi store owner has had to pay all sorts of overhead, and money for his inventory, and has had to do (if it’s a good shop) all sorts of work creating a good demo environment. Plus he will often be doing work arranging and setting up various equipment combinations for customers. And...he has done all this because he is trying to earn a living.
I just could not bring myself to go in to a hi fi store, use that person’s store space, inventory and time while planning to buy elsewhere because I can get the item cheaper. I wouldn’t want anyone to do that to me; I try not to do it to other people. I respect they have to make a living and that they have provided me with a service I would not get if left to my own devices. For me, this means being able to actually demo equipment, often in various configurations, sometimes in my own home before buying. (As a long time audiophile, I frankly don’t get much other ’added value’ from a salesman’s ’experience.’ I know enough about what I like and want and don’t need help "putting a system together." Simply being able to demo the equipment I want is enough added value).
When I go to an audio store I make it absolutely clear what my intentions are. If I am just dropping in to browse, say, a new store, that’s what I’ll tell the salesman. Does he want to demo some stuff for me? Sure, I’ll listen. He does so knowingly, hoping I’ll hear something that might inspire me to buy.
If I’m there because I’ve found out that store has an item I’m seriously interested in possibly purchasing, I lay that out. Sometimes I’ll hear the item I came to hear, but there might be something else of interest in the store. Maybe even something out of my price range. If I really want to hear it, I will make sure to be honest with the salesman: "Look, I came here because of X speakers, and those others there are frankly beyond my budget. But if they are currently hooked up, would it be any trouble to hear them?"
The salesman can say "sorry, no." But a wise salesman will allow an honest customer to listen even out of his price range. First, it gains good will. Second, you never know....
For instance, I went to demo some Joseph Audio Pulsar speakers at a local dealer. I really enjoyed them and the dealer mentioned he had the bigger floor standing Perspective model. Once he told me how much they were I told him they were more than I was looking to spend. But, even though he said that, he gave me a demo of the Perspectives. Well, good move, turned out I fell in love with their sound and now HAD to have those. So now, my budget had expanded and he had the possibility of a bigger sale. He upsold me, and that was fine by me.
I did a few long demos of those speakers to make sure I was willing to spend that much. I was, but I let the salesman know I now needed more time to save up some money for the more expensive speakers. During the time I was saving, a pair of perspectives in great condition came on the market, second hand, for 1/2 what it was going to cost me buying them new from the dealer. I could easily have snapped those up and never gone back to the dealer. But, sorry, that just isn’t how I want to do business. If I used a dealers time and his inventory extensively and said I’d buy, then I’m holding to that.
So...I’m still saving :)
I suppose depending on the reader’s personality, you’ll either see that as some form of trying to maintain some integrity....or being a "sucker."
Of course none of the above commits me to buying from some salesman just because I’ve entered his place and he’s demoed something for me.I’ve had some crappy salesmen experiences and they "lost any possible sale" for it.
But in general, I wish to reduce the level of b.s. in my dealing with people - from both directions. To that end, I try to be as clear and honest as possible when dealing with hi-end stores - if I’m serious about buying, they will know up front. If I’m browsing, they’ll know up front. If I can afford X but would love to hear Y just to hear Y....they’ll know that up front. Then it’s up to them how they want to proceed.
It’s a tough business. I just can’t begrudge them their earning a living, and if I decide to buy, I’m not going to haggle away their profit margin.I don’t see a lot of rich guys running hi end audio stores.
@mickeyb - I enjoy good conversation and debate. And, I always appreciate and respect the opinions of all contributors.I can understand how you may have missed some of the facts earlier in the post, where I discussed that I knew exactly what I wanted to buy, I was prepared to buy that day, I asked if the shop if they would sell lower than list, I was told no and I bought the exact same item, at a lower price hours later.
But, what I can’t understand is how you, as a contractor, consider people who shop your itemized bid to be “low rent”, have “No class” and their behavior “a scumbag move”.
When I issue an RFP or open bid request, the purpose of itemization is to compare competitive bids, line item to line item. That’s how I can determine how bids compare to one another on both item and price. It’s one the most common practice in American business “shopping”. If your business is faced more towards residential sales, I think you should expect your prospects to pursue a few competitive bids.
When I'm in NOHO Sound and Stereo (62 Cooper Street) there are 12 audio shops within 22 blocks to the north and 6 within 12 blocks to the south, either on, or a block or 2 off Broadway.
I just looked at the google maps hoping to see where the stores are but it does not easily show. I found a bunch of Indian restaurants, though. Audio shops may really need to up their advertising game. True, it was only by pointing to NoHo Audio and then zooming on the map hoping to see names written and not specifically googling for stores.
I agree, with perhaps the inclusion of LA. I think wherever there’s a very diverse cultural demographic, the practice of haggling is inherently ingrained.
@oddiofyl
I was trying to avoid the use of any business names in a post about pricing policies, that might bias anyone’s opinion. The reference I made to that one store was only geographical in nature, I chose it because it is pretty much central to the other shops in that 25 block radius. But, if it put an uptick in floor traffic - great!
@gluson
Do a search for “hifi shops manhattan”. There are more in Manhattan, but Broadway and 8th Street is the center of the “walking distance” radius I was referring to.
Actually you are much worse then you think......although I had a guy come in and wanted to audition a 10K amp. He did listen and liked it. I let him take it home to try it in his home in his system and apparently it sounded good so he brought it back and bought the one he had seen on line. That is enough to urge me to close my business. Not sure what you do for a living but a little respect would be nice....
1. I wouldn’t have spent $5800 for a $7000 list item online, if that item wasn’t returnable. Plus, it’s the perfect audition, in my room, with my gear. No loss, great demo.
2. I audition that equipment and decide it's not for me. I buy something else instead. Agreed.
Do you see a difference? I don’t.
"
You asked about a store demo. Now you change your tune to online. See a difference?
You asked for my opinion of your behaviour. I think it's sleazy. Just plain sleazy.
You completely misunderstood the post you’re referring to. But, I accept your opinion of my behavior.And, I will continue my belief that someone who is willing to pay $7000 for an item, that sells elsewhere for $5800, (because someone who is not willing to negotiate price but, has spent a few minutes demonstrating a product to them) is a schmuk. If you’re willing to pay $1200 to talk with someone for 20 minutes… call me, I’m negotiable ;-)
soundsrealaudio.
I have the utmost respect for any business person who interacts with retail shoppers. I understand your dismay and resentment with the customer you recounted. It appears you were certainly diligent, but, why did you loose the sale? After your generous interaction with the shopper, I have to conclude their decision was based on price.
Webrooming and Showrooming are retail shopping tactics that aren’t fleeting whims of a younger generation. Both have become a growing trend of tech-savvy educated consumers. And while retailers may view this with disdain, They need to develop strategies to compete in this environment. I believe the strongest defense for their longevity is negotiation.
I thank all the responders for their opinions. Thanks to those who accept or condone my shopping behavior and those who’s opinion find it “sleazy” “low class” or even “a scumbag move’... shameful monikers I’ll wear to the bank. ;-)
Anyone who would accept being overcharged and become so meekly obedient to a salesperson that they allowed their self respect to be influenced, would be both a schmuk and a wimp.
Great topic. I would love to be all warm and fuzzy about dealers. I walk into my local dealer and they act as if I am imposing on them just to listen to something. Dealers need to understand that they are selling high dollar products and you might take a few months to finally pull the trigger on a sale. I'm sure it's frustrating for them though.
The customer that took home my gear had already decided to buy the one on audiogon....if it sounded good. He didn't come in out of the blue just to see what I had. After he got his amps in from the seller in California I got an email form the seller to ask if I had an owners manual for those amplifiers...obviously for the buyer in Denver. I was surprised he didn't ask me to go help the guy put his tubes in. .
I think that dealers are on the way out. Guys used to come in to my shop or my room at the RMAF and fall in love with the sound....then they go on line and see what other people think. No one can make a decision on their own...lets see what the reviews think...I have a friend with a good ear. Some how we are weeding out the really good products in favor of the really good advertisers...A little sad...
We all start out in the hobby unsure of ourselves, but maybe folks just want to spend too much on it in spite of the uncertainty factor, in an attempt to avoid the perceived spending mistake of buying something of inferior quality....scared money??
Don’t just throw a stone, run away and say “Goodbye”. If your self respect is so fragile, that you feel the need to pay more for something than you need to, that’s fine. It actually reminds me of a line in Ayn Rand’s, The Fountainhead- “It's easier to donate a few thousand to charity and think oneself noble than to base self-respect on personal standards of personal achievement.”
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