Contemplating DEVORE SPEAKERS (and others)....LONG audition report of many speakers

Told you it was long!

I figure what the heck, some people may find all of it interesting, maybe only some, maybe none. No one forced to read it. So onward....

Folks,

I've had Thiel 3.7s for several years and love them dearly. As I've mentioned in other threads, I have to downsize simply due to some ergonomic and aesthetic issues in my room - the speakers have to go partially by the entrance and so any big, deep speakers tend to get in the way.

Over the last two years or so I did a whole bunch of auditioning of many speakers over a year ago to find a replacement - Audio Note, Audio Physic, Focal, Raidho monitors, JM Reynaud, Paradigm Persona, various Revel models, Monitor Audio, Proac, Kudos, Harbeth, Joseph Audio...

I was going to give a report on all of them individually, at one point, but it's been a while so I'll just throw out some thumbnail impressions. They aren't meant to be particularly descriptive of the sound so much as brief reasons as to why I enjoyed or moved on from those speakers. I always sought the best set up achievable for an audition, but of course that's still not like being able to tune a speaker in one's own room. So caveats given, on with some brief impressions:

Audio Note:

(I forget which exact model but it was in the "quite expensive but not impossible" zone for me)
Excellent clarity. Good impact. Nice woody tonality (as in does wood instruments like cello, stand up bass etc with a convincing tone). My main issue is that I could really hear the corner loading aspect of the sound, especially in the lower mids down. Not that the bass was incontinent per se, more that I was just aware of the way the illusion of the bigger bass and sound was being created, in terms of using wall re-enforcement.

Also, I'm a real stickler about instrumental tone and timbre. I've always found that the more room you introduce into the sound, especially in the upper frequencies, the more it will tend to cast a scrim of room sound over the timbre of voices and instruments, homogenizing the most delicate aspects of the timbre. As the Audio Notes pretty much require or are meant to use the room, this was an aspect it would seem hard to get around. (That's one reason I tend to like speakers that will work closer to my listening position).

Audio Physic:

I'm very familiar with the AP sound - have had the Virgos, Scorpios and Libra in my home and heard much of the line through the years. The Avanti was terrific, tonally neutral sounding, clear lively treble without ear piercing. And of course their magical disappearing act, which I love. But didn't have enough of the richness I'd become used to with the bigger Thiels. I suspect the larger Codex woud be killer, but they get in to the too deep/large category.

Focal

I've always found Focal to have a "look at me" sound to their tweeter. Nonetheless I often admired the rich tonality of their large speakers at audio shows. Unfortunately I never found this to transfer to their smaller stand mounted speakers. They struck me as more clinical and left me cold. Recent Audition of the Kanta 2 still had the "check out our TWEETER!" Focal sound, but was smooth and vivid enough. Unfortunately to my ears sounded too "hi-fi" with disjointed bass. My Thiels at home sounded far more organic and believable.

Raidho

Listened to the tiny X1s which were remarkable performers for their size. Super clear, clean, open, killer soundstaging, good snap on drums - represented Joe Morello's solos on Brubeck at Carnegie Hall far more convincingly than any tiny speaker has a right to. Ultimately, too small.

Dealer had a killer deal on the larger C 1.2 stand mounted speakers and I had hope there. I have never, ever liked a ribbon tweeter with cones because every time I hear the discontinuity. I'd say the Raidhos are the first time I did not hear that discontinuity. So it was all that air and delicacy without the usual drawback. However, I'm thinking part of the magic for this has to do with their house curve, which isn't flat but has a "concert hall" dip in the upper mids (I think). Ultimately I tended to hear this as a coloration, a recessing of a portion of the sound. I'm used to the Thiels which at my place are phenomenally linear sounding top to bottom. So there would be percussion instruments, piano parts, and other instruments that would be more distant and subdued on the Raidhos, losing some of the realistic liveliness. I didn't really hear more detail than I was used to from my Thiels, found the sound a bit "grayed" tonally, though rich in the mids and upper bass. These things KICK in terms of upper bass presence and sound much bigger than they are. But I also found that a slightly over-bearing.

In fact, that's a problem I often have with monitor speakers. So many of them are engineered to sound bigger than they are so you don't feel like you are missing base, but the goosing of the bass to achieve this can be to my ears a bit obnoxious vs the more linear bass of a good floor standing speaker (though down lower, they can have their room problems...my Thiels do not).

JM Reynaud Offrande Supreme v2

I was very serious about these speakers. I'd been around for the initial JMR hype years ago, and heard most of their models at a local store. Always had nice tone, both incisive and warm, but a bit too far into the ever-present-coloration territory to my ears. Still, I believe the Supremes had been updated since then and I had two separate auditions at a Dealer when I was visiting Montreal.

They certainly had the JMR virtues. Super clear, almost hot high end, lively presence all around, yet somehow allied to a gorgeous warm tone. This brings in one of the things I like in a speaker - a warm tone not necessariily in the sense of a ripe lower midrange, but rather timbrally - warm in the sense that when an acoustic guitar track is played through the speaker, the signature is that of the warmth of wood, instead of the cold, electronic coloration of most systems. The JMR does this with acoustic instruments and voices. Everything with an amber or blond-wood "glow." And they definitley have a dynamic/transient/open sound that gives a feeling of musicians being right there, playing right now vibe.

Ultimately I found they were a bit biting to my ear in the upper frequencies. While the forwardness was a boon to putting musicians right in front of me, it also tended to fore-shorten depth. An always "they are here" vs "I'm transported to there" vibe. Also, the bass which was really big and deep - they are huge stand mount speakers! - was a bit on the pudgy side. But I get why people love them. If I had the opportunity I'd have liked to try them at home. (Though...maybe not. I actually don't like how they look, and REALLY don't like the JMR wood finishes).

Paradigm Persona

(I believe it was the 3F). Yup, these babies are clear, clear, clear and grain free. They are balanced top to bottom and were, like the Revel, the closest to my Thiel 3.7 speakers in terms of sounding balanced from top to bottom. Drum snares, cymbals, rim hits, percussion, guitar strings etc all had a fairly riveting precision. They had an open-window into the recording studio feel on almost every track. Plus, for their size they sounded BIG, including the image sizes, depth, width of the soundstage. A tremendous speaker for the money. Ultimately I couldn't get on with their looks, at least for my room. But most important, I did find them somewhat fatiguing to listen to after a while, and a bit less organic than my Thiels. (Though I'd bet that could change for the better if set up at my home on my gear).

Revel

I'd repeat most of what I just wrote about the Paradigms. They sounded similar, though the Paradigms seemed to have a next-level sense of purity and transparency vs the Revel. And the Revels tended to sound just a bit more linear and controlled top to bottom. The Revels just sounded like really competent speakers, but didn't grab me.
Again, something about the timbre/tone I get with the Thiels (and some other speakers) have an "it" factor I don't get with the Revels.

Monitor Audio (Gold, I believe - a smaller floor stander)

I've always liked the Monitor Audio sound. My father-in-law uses a HUGE pair of Monitor Audio monitors from the 80's that still strike me as one of the best marriages of believable tone with size and richness I've heard.
I own Monitor Audio bronze monitors for various uses, including home theater surrounds. Though I found once they moved to the Platinum line, with ribbons, the tone became a bit too bleached for my comfort.
The smaller Gold line still was able to do the "golden, bronze" tones in the upper frequencies...just turning toward silver a bit. They were astonishingly clean and clear, with a rainbow of timbral colors coming through. My main gripe is that I realized nothing actually sounded "real" - in the sense of believably organic. Everything sounded a bit hard around the edge - sibilance in vocals for instance being laid bare as processed in a bit too ruthless manner.

Proac - D20R (I believe...)

Love the look of these especially the wood finish in ebony on the model I auditioned. Would really have been a perfect size replacement for the Thiels, and went down about as low. Unfortunately I couldn't get around the extremely obvious character of the ribbon tweeter vs the mids/bass. I was always aware of it, and generally found the sound too cool in the upper frequencies to really get into. Bass was also not particularly impressive in terms of tone and control. One of the more disappointing speaker auditions.

Kudos

You really don't hear much about Kudos around here. Lack of dealers and North American presence I guess (as it seems to me a majority of people posting here are from North America...if I am indeed right about that).
Anyway, at a TAVES shows a few years ago I was frankly astonished by the sound coming from a pair of Kudos Super 20 floor standing speakers. It had a brilliant, reach out and grab me "alive" tone that made my brain think "real performance" more than most of what I'd heard that day. A bit forward...but wow what an effect. So they went on to my radar.

Turns out a local dealer carried Kudos, and there I heard some very small floor standing Kudos X3 speakers.
Well, there it was! That tone! Like the bigger model I'd heard at the show, this one had a dialed up upper frequency range that gave liveliness and detail. But it was, somewhat like the JMR speakers, allied to a generally warm tone, with a spectrum of timbral color to trumpet, wood blocks, acoustic guitar etc. If found the sound quite compelling, and so wondered about Kudos higher end models. As it turned out, Kudos in the last year has come out with the Titan range, a trickle down from their flagship. I really liked the design of the Titan 606 speakers, they were a great replacement size for the Thiels from the specs. But...my local dealer didn't want to bring them in so I would never hear them (I certainly did not want him to order them just for my sake, given I couldn't know before hearing them if I'd want to buy them).

But then during a recent trip to Europe I ended up in London for a couple days, so I found a Kudos dealer there.
And not only did he have the 606s for me to hear, but also the literally just introduced stand mounted Titan 505 that had many people raving at a recent British audio show. Very cool. Both speakers, as with most Kudos speakers, employ isobaric loading for the bass.

Both the 505 and 606 displayed the Kudos house sound which was that lively top end. Great for adding bit to guitar picking, hearing the bow on strings, transient aliveness etc. Even if not strictly neutral, it's fun (so long as timbres to my ears are otherwise organic). I found the 505 to actually sound a bit less balanced than the floor standing speaker. I suppose this is my allergy to the "tiny speaker trying to sound like a big speaker" tuning, but the bass seemed somewhat over-warm, and the speakers themselves a tad clinical from the mids up. Still, they were spacious, enthusiastic sounding, with great separation of instruments and voices. And certain tracks like Lightfoot's If You Could Read My Mind were actually magical on the 505. A similar warm timbre to the JMR speakers, and the added top end sparkle livened up the guitars and strings which can sound a bit tepid on many other speakers.

The larger 606 speakers sounded more linear, richer, a bit darker, and produced a satisfyingly large sound for their size. Similar to the Revel or Paradigm speakers. The upper frequency balance was a double edged sword: it could make drum high hats, snares, cymbals, guitars stand out in particularly, and satisfyingly, vivid relief. But could also highlight the studio/microphone/effects on voices making vocals sound a bit more "hi-fi" than most. But naturally recorded vocals were by the same token vivid and clear. Bass had an interesting character, sort of tight, punchy and big...a sense of the bass "spreading" in the room. My impression veered between "impressive" on the bass and "hmm...not sure I'm sold on this isobaric bass." I'll say that Herbie Hancock's Chameleon, one of my test songs on most speakers, was produced in a particularly compelling, vivid manner. The drums were just crystal clear and had that "live drum playing" feeling. It was one of those "wow" moments that kind of haunt you when you hear a certain track sound different and more realistic than normal.

That said, some other tracks veered into the intolerable territory (e.g. horns too piercing on Earth Wind and F ire live). It's the kind of audition that was very promising in some areas, leaving me thinking "these COULD be awesome if I could tame the problems and keep the good parts." Maybe on tubes, and in my well damped room. But a one time, not terribly long audition didn't allow me to commit to such an expensive purchase, when I hear some things that leave me with misgivings.I wish these models landed locally because I could further warm up to them, but that was the only shot at them.

Harbeth:

I auditioned the various models - Monitor 30.1, C7ES-3, Super HL5 Plus. (Also listened to the 40s, since they had them set up).

I love the Harbeth sound and there's little need to describe it, since so many are familiar. But wow...their particular magic with voices is something. They somehow capture voices actually being produced by an organic person vs an electronic version of a person. No matter what type of material, jazz, processed pop, R&B, even electronica/dance, they always seem be be able to find the "person" singing in the mix. And of course they have such a smooth, full, rich sound with acoustic instruments sounding very much themselves.

The Monitor 30.1 had those qualities, but I was a bit too aware of their bass limitations (cut off at the knees), and was also aware of a bit of darkness, lack of "air." In the close my eyes "could I believe that guitar or person is really there" test, a darkening of tone, a shelving of the upper frequencies, are usually a dead giveaway to me of the artifice. But within it's range....gorgeous.

The C7ES-3 were wonderful. There was that bass extension! Displayed the Harbeth mids if not quite as refined. But over all I found the bass a little less controlled than I'd want.

Super HL5 Plus was the Goldilocks choice of the group. It had the added bass extension I heard from the C7ES, but with better integration and control. It had super refined, open, smooth, rich midrange, but with the added top end openness and extension (addition of the super tweeter?) that made the sound more realistic and believable to me. Though I was still hearing some things that I felt my Thiels did better so I wasn't quite sure yet.
Unfortunately, when I came back to this particular store to audition the HL5 Plus I didn't have a good audition experience. I've described the experience elsewhere here, so won't repeat it. But suffice it to say, it did not make me want to move forward with this particular store. (I have more recently had very good interactions with this store, so I would say my bad experience probably turned out to be an anomaly at that location).

Anyway, the Harbeths dropped off my radar for over a year until I heard the Super HL5 Plus sounding superb in the Montreal Audio show. Intriguing. Later on an audio mart I saw a pair in a gorgeous rosewood finish for, by far, the best price I've ever seen for a used Harbeth. I grabbed them, knowing I could definitely sell them without losing money, with this thought: They are not in the finish I want. So I'll use them as a "home audition" of the Harbeths and if I love them, I'll sell these ones and go to my local dealer to buy brand new ones in the finish I require.

It turned out I really really liked the Super HL5 Plus, but didn't love. They did all the wonderful Harbeth things, that big rich sound, in this model especially, also with a studio-monitor clarity, and generally organic sound.
However, I simply found my Thiels did essentially everything the Harbeths did, but better. I never could get a satisfying depth to the soundstage of the Harbeths (not usually a problem in my room), always sounding a bit fore-shortened. And it seemed a flip-side of the fullness/lively cabinet design was a certain "filling in the spaces with texture" quality. The Thiels, for instance, separated the Los Angelese Guitar Quartet's guitars more effortlessly, with more precision and realism and tonal density, but without sacrificing any image size or warmth of tone. Nothing quite sounds like the Harbeth on vocals. But ultimately they could not budge me from the Thiels and I sold them.

That said, I now have a store near me selling Harbeths and I'm in there buying vinyl a lot. Every time I hear the Harbeths playing I just want to sit down and listen, thinking "These are so beautiful. Why don't I own them?" But then I remember, I did...I did the comparisons. Would love them in a second system, though.

Joseph Audio - Pulsar and Perspectives.

As a long time high audio rag reader, I've long been familiar with the Joseph Audio name, but it wasn't until last year in Montreal that I actually heard a JA speaker: the Pearl 3. Jeff Joseph was playing an acapella group piece and I was just stopped in my tracks. It wasn't just the clarity - tons of high end speakers produce vivid vocals. It was the authenticity of the timbre of the voices! It just sounded bang on. Not cold, gray, steely, silvery, or darkened, or all the "off-timbre" electronic signatures that define for me hi-fi voices vs real. It was that human warmth timbre, that sounded just like the people talking in the room. This was so rare and magical it put the JA speakers immediately on my radar. Upon reading that the stand mounted Pulsars had a similar presentation I found a local dealer and auditioned them. Yup, they did! They were fairly mesmerizing. Even despite my misgivings about small speakers trying to sound big, the Pulsars did this better than almost any other stand mounted speaker I've heard - very rich and satisfying. Though I did note a bit of excess warmth here and there in the lower midrange, upper bass. And I still wondered if I could end up with a stand mounted speaker after living with big floor standers. At home, I listen not only in front of the speakers for "critical listening" but I'll also crank them to listen just down the hall, in my work office or through the house. And at these times I really start to hear the limitation on the small speaker. It can sound like it's going low, but it becomes sort of "fake bass" in a way, where it just doesn't have the solidity and impact of a big speaker.

So the dealer suggested I listen to the floor standing Joseph Audio Perspective model. I said I don't know, they cost more than I was thinking of spending. But, he persisted and...his up-sell worked ;-)

The Perspectives really grabbed me. They sounded more linear than the Pulsars to my ears through the mids down, had really thick, punchy bass that seemed to make every type of music fun, yet seemed controlled enough to make "audiophile" stuff very realistic. They really disappeared with a huge soundstage and great imaging. I'm a tone/timbre buy first, but I ultimately want speakers to disappear and soundstage well - it's part of the illusion, the magic show, that I appreciate and that makes me want to sit in front of a high end system in the first place.

But what really grabbed me was the overall tone/timbre of the presentation! I remember playing some Chet Baker and some Julie London mono recordings and being shocked at how clear the sound was - how the Perspectives took a central mono image of voice, guitar, bass, drums etc and seemed to effortlessly unravel the different timbres and individual players. And how realistic the voices were. Another moment I remember were some tracks from the Bullet soundtrack (I'm a soundtrack fiend). Every instrument that entered the mix - a single sax, a flute, an organ, a group of saxes, horns...sounded incredibly pure, distinct and accurate in timbre! That's one of the things I always loved about going to the symphony, and sitting close, closing my eyes: that rainbow of different acoustic sources, materials, shiny silvery bells, brassy cymbals, woody reeds, woody cellos, golden hued horns...

The Perspectives (and the Pulsars) were giving me more of this sensation, of "surprise" in how each new instrument sounded, than I typically get from most speakers. And they did it with a particular purity, and lack of hash in any part of the frequency spectrum, making for a less mechanical sound than usual (Fremer nailed this in his Pulsar review).

Plus there was a great sense of "flow" to the Perspectives, the way dynamically the sound would swell dramatically when called fo (again, soundtracks were great on the Perspectives). All these elements came together to produce a great emotional connection to music through the speakers.

So, they sounded special to me.

I got a home audition and they continued to sound beautiful in my home. But having both the big Thiels and the Josephs meant I could compare, which inevitably gave some ground to the Thiels - the bigger more realistic image size, the slightly better precision in imaging and tonal density, a more linear presentation from top to bottom from the Thiels, where the Perspectives could sound a bit "puffy" in the bass sometimes.
And yet, the Perspectives still had a magic the Thiels couldn't do with tone. I remember playing back Talk Talk's Happiness Is Easy and thinking "I literally don't think reproduced sound gets better than this."

So stuck between A and B I realized this: I couldn't give up the Thiels. After all my auditioning, nothing really did everything as well in the same package and the 3.7s had become very rare on the used market, no longer made, so it could be a big regret to let them go.

BUT...I was also bitten by the Perspectives. Once heard, they were hard to unhear.
So I decided, dammit, I'll have both! I tend to hoard speakers somewhat, so I'd keep the Thiels but buy the Perspectives, and I'd have the Thiels to throw in to the room whenever I wanted the Thiel sound.

But....this meant I'd no longer be selling my Thiels to pay for new speakers. So I'd have to save up for the Perspectives. And this I've been doing.

Then, aha! A pair of Thiel 2.7 speakers in the ebony finish I've always wanted showed up on Audiogon. I grabbed them for a killer price and they have been fantastic! Smaller than the 3.7s, better looking in the room, they have the Thiel attributes. Done...right? Naw...I haven't been a fervent audiophile for decades for nuthin'.
I've been on track toward the Perspectives for so long, it's hard to get off. So once I got the 2.7s my thinking changed to "Well..now I can sell the big Thiels and have that money to put toward the Perspectives!"

So as I've been readying to sell the big Thiels, and about to spend more than I ever have on a pair of speakers (Perspectives are expensive to us Canucks), I thought "If I'm about to spend this much, I better do some due diligence and make sure I didn't leave another option on the floor." So I recently checked out a speaker brand that I'd wondered about for a while now. Devore Fidelity.

And that will lead to my next post.

prof04-27-2018 1:09am

465 responses Add your response

fsonicsmith Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 957 posts 10-06-2022 at 11:50pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Devore O/baby - sweet, natural, hear lots of the vibration and physical sensation of the music (snares on drums, horns etc). The bass response felt like no slouch. Imaged and soundstaged well (though not as great as the Spendors) and really felt like the speakers disappeared. Didn't sound like it was "technically" performing as well as the Spendor but to my ears just felt more satisfying overall. I'd say the Spendors were the ones I'd want to demo for my friends for 15 mins to show them what hifi is about but the Devores are the ones I'd want to return to again and again. I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the O/96 yet. These will be my main speakers and I am torn between the O/baby which I loved and the O/96 (which maybe I'd want to upgrade into eventually anyway). Based on owning both the Spendor D7.2's, Devore O/93's, listening to the O/96's extensively and having some pretty good amplification and sources (see my profile if interested by ARC Ref 6 and Ref 80S at heart of it) this is spot-on as to the relative merits of the Spendor D7.2's and my Devore O/93's. I have not heard the O/Babys but they can not sound that different. So now to my warning-the O/96's sound even less hi-fi'ish than the O/93's and are downright addictive. They are controlled and well behaved/refined and yet so propulsive that if you are not moving to the music you are likely dead. The problem is that they need a much bigger room than one would think from looking at them.
ddafoe Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 243 posts 10-07-2022 at 12:29am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @fsonicsmith, have you ever heard the Devore Super Nines? I'm curious as to how they compare to the O series and the similar sized D7.2s.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 10-07-2022 at 01:15am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I've always wondered how the Devore Super Nines would compare to my Joseph Audio Perspectives. They are almost the same size/design.
charles1dad Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 10,250 posts 10-07-2022 at 01:59am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @fsonicsmith I can imagine that your Devore O-93s and ARC Reference-80S amplifier make a very pleasing and engaging pairing.The ARC Reference-6 preamplifier sure wouldn’t hurt any of the proceedings either. Charles
disc Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 118 posts 11-06-2022 at 02:35pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof (and others here), a big thank you for your work reviewing the various speakers in your original post, and after. I took delivery of a pair of Perspective2 Graphene three days ago and couldn’t be happier. I had narrowed my options down, based on room size, personal preference, etc., with a good bit of overlap with your OP. This thread and a couple of others sealed the deal. They sounded great out of the box and are improving. Jeff Joseph and Aaron (at Now Listen Here) were great to work with. All in all, I couldn’t be happier with the process and result. I can’t compare them with the originals (which I’ve never heard), but would be happy to share listening notes if you like. In sum, I find them to excel in the qualities that you and others have mentioned. Timbre is excellent, astonishing at times — especially the timbre of vocals. I’m still working on placement, but the soundstage is large and 3-D. They are fast and detailed, and not overwhelmed by complex passages. I’ve had larger speakers with more bass presence (VSA HR-5 HSE), but the bass doesn’t seem absent as it does with some smaller speakers. Cheers and thanks again! This is one of the reasons I love our community.
jjss49 Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 6,612 posts 11-06-2022 at 04:02pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Spendor D7.2 - Incredible detail and transparency. Listened to these back to back with the O/baby (both with Leben amplification) and they presented the music quite differently. The spendor had fantastic soundstage, fast bass, and as I mentioned a lot of detail. However, they were a tad more "hi-fi" sounding as compared to the Devore and I just connected more with the tone and emotional quality of the Devore. with the d series, spendor has certainly gone for the ’modern sound’, e,g, effortless detail, speed, ’hear into the music’ with zero effort the classic series preserves the older bbc sound, where there is less overt detail, more natural organic presentation, music is more presented as connected whole, less pulled apart and needing the brain to reconstruct my preference lies with the latter, but that is just me... certainly the d series are more decor-friendly than my beloved sp100’s think of the d series as out there to take on b&w focal wilson magico modern kef et al, whereas classic series goes head on with harbeth, devore, graham, tannoy and so on
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-06-2022 at 05:06pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @disc That’s great to hear! I’m glad my musings were of some help in your search. I look forward to any impressions you want to share about the Perspectives Graphene. Also, it's good to hear that Jeff Joseph is still interacting with customers. I saved up the money to have my Perspectives upgraded to the Graphene version and have been ready and willing to send them to Joseph Audio for the upgrade. Unfortunately, despite my many efforts, I have not been able to get a reply from Joseph Audio since mid summer...:-(
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 981 posts 11-06-2022 at 05:16pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I remember stating that I had problems getting any communication from Jeff at JA and it was inferred that I was "lying" and that they had no problems contacting Jeff....now they are saying the same thing as me. Hmmm
disc Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 118 posts 11-06-2022 at 06:35pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof , I’ll share more impressions as they arise. @riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook , I have no comment on your experience (or that of Prof). I can only speak to mine. I contacted Jeff several times through the JA website and he got back to me very quickly (same day). Our communication was warm and efficient.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-06-2022 at 07:12pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Great, do give us those impressions disc! Again, good to hear things went smoothly communicating with Jeff Joseph. I also had good communication with Jeff in the past. But for some reason it’s been a struggle since mid summer. Mid-summer, I’d asked about sending in my Perspectives for the upgrade and Jeff said they were waiting on a shipment of drivers, and also the price of the upgrade MIGHT be going up - to be determined. I’ve been wanting to find out the status of the upgrades, including if there’s any new price or when I can send my Perspectives in. But from then on it’s been radio silence. I tried emailing several times in September and the emails bounced back (the same ones that went through before). I tried contacting through the website. No answer. I tried phoning several times. No answer. I asked my dealer (who sold me the Perspectives) if he could get in contact with questions about the Perspective upgrade. It’s been a month and he has had no response as well. The last time I was able to get a reply from Jeff was in June. I actually started to worry whether they were still in business (especially with the emails bouncing back). So it's good to see someone is getting through. I can certainly understand we are talking about a relatively small business with a small staff, and that supply chain stuff is especially problematic for many businesses including the electronics industry. But the lack of communication has indeed been frustrating. I’d like to put my saved money towards the Perspective upgrade, but if the cost has gone up substantially or it won’t be available for a long time I’d like to know that, maybe I’ll put the money toward something else instead.
jafant Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 19,602 posts 11-09-2022 at 07:15am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete prof PM sent. Happy Listening!
ghasley Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 2,489 posts 11-10-2022 at 06:03pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete
jafant Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 19,602 posts 11-10-2022 at 07:11pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete prof I enjoyed the PM. Keep me posted. Happy Listening!
rsf507 Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 2,313 posts 11-10-2022 at 07:38pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I've sent a couple of emails to JA via their online website and have not heard back in several weeks. Has me wondering if I should be considering JA. 🤔
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-10-2022 at 09:28pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @ghasley Thanks! I saw that posted on SH forums and to repeat what I wrote there: Dang. Trying to keep my resolve in putting my saved audio funds to upgrading my Joseph Perspectives rather than buying yet another speaker. My resolve didn't need to read that
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-10-2022 at 09:44pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @rsf507 Your frustration and hesitation are understandable. I've been wondering if I'd actually be able to send my Perspectives for the upgrade due to the radio silence. Fortunately the local Joseph Audio importer finally got through and got some info. The upgrade of course has gone up in price by quite a bit. Sigh. I'd saved up (and sold some stuff) to afford it at the original price. Now I'll have to figure out if I'm moving forward on this.
jafant Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 19,602 posts 11-10-2022 at 09:48pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete prof In this Digital age, there is NO excuse for any Dealer/Manufacture/Retailer to exhibit "radio silence". There are better loudspeakers besides JA. Proceed with caution. On the flipside, there are many Flakes in the Industry. Happy Listening!
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-10-2022 at 11:26pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I have to say I’m still disappointed by the choice of finish on the o/baby. I don’t think I could stare at that finish all the time in my listening room - too bright, too bland. I prefer darker wood with a strong sense of grain. And I presume a custom finish would push them in to the prohibitively expensive realm for me at this point.
mrdseitzer Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 4 posts 11-22-2022 at 07:56pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof I created an account here to let you know that I found this thread (particularly your impressions) immensely interesting and helpful. You are a gifted writer for sure and you taking the time to share such detailed impressions is much appreciated. I am considering the Perspective 2's (more seriously after reading through your experiences), and am also considering the QLN Prestige 3's. Have you, per chance, heard those or anything else by QLN?
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-22-2022 at 10:39pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @mrdseitzer I'm glad you found this thread useful! Thanks for your comments! Sorry, no I haven't heard the QLN speakers. They certainly are garnering a reputation. Seems the going impressions are that they sound suave and smooth and rich, with surprising bass depth and impact.
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 11-23-2022 at 01:14am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof did you get the Perspectives upgraded to 2? If so, what are your impressions?
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-23-2022 at 03:07am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @arafiq Not yet. It's expensive. I probably will but haven't pulled the trigger.
agisthos Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 504 posts 11-23-2022 at 05:40am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete At the moment I am into Neat Acoustics. Ex Neat employees formed Kudos and they apparently go for a similar sound, i.e musical and not entirely neutral. They have a series of isobaric loaded speakers with compact size, all voicing tuned by ear, point to point wired crossovers etc And like Kudos I think US distribution is very patchy so it will be hard to audition.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-23-2022 at 06:06am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete As I wrote early in the thread I really like Kudos speakers. My Kudos dealer switched to NEAT speakers - mostly I think because he had to because it was difficult being a Kudos dealer in Canada or something. Anyway, he made a big pitch about NEAT speakers so I gave them a listen at his store. I've rarely heard speakers that bad. They were so utterly bland. I didn't have the heart to really tell him what I thought, but indicated I was sad to see the Kudos go.
agisthos Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 504 posts 11-23-2022 at 06:14am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete My experience the opposite, very lively and lifelike. Interested to know which model you auditioned, as they do a lot, and I will stay away from them. But it could be in comparison the Kudos just showed them up.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 11-23-2022 at 08:24pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I can't remember the NEAT model the dealer demoed for me, but they were one of the higher up models, fairly big as I recall. It was just one set of speakers, one time, so I can't denounce all NEAT speakers. But it left me not wanting to seek them out.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-03-2022 at 07:15am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Heads up for this big ol' thread: I'm finally in a position to upgrade my Perspectives! I plan to drop my speakers off at my local dealer tomorrow, to be sent to Joseph Audio for the graphene driver/crossover upgrade. Obviously I'll report back here my impressions. I have no idea how long it will take though.
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 12-03-2022 at 07:56pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof Congratulation! And it's about time! 😁 I hope they don't take forever to send them back to you. I'm assuming you will be using your Thiels in the meantime? I would love to hear your impressions once you have them back. I really appreciated your input when I was planning to get my P2s. They are every bit as good as you described. I have no regrets and don't foresee myself selling them anytime soon.
disc Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 118 posts 12-03-2022 at 08:07pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof — that’s great news. Glad it worked out. I’m enjoying my p2s immensely as I write. Hope it’s not a long wait.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-03-2022 at 10:08pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Thanks boys. As you can see, some things take a while for me :-) Speaking of which I couldn't send my speakers out today as planned. Hopefully within the next week. I'm actually not going to be doing anything like a direct comparison between the old and new Perspectives, in that I have actually been listening to my Thiel 2.7s for a long time. That's because I got on to experimenting with all sorts of stuff - from subwoofers to different amplifiers to tube rolling etc, and I wanted to keep the speakers constant as a baseline. So it's actually been a while since I had the Perspectives in my system. And since I'm still futzing around with stuff (now some isolation and room treatment) I figure no better time to have the Perspectives off getting upgraded.
ebm Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 9,311 posts 12-05-2022 at 03:04pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Will read when I have a few hours.
dbagstrick Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 25 posts 12-05-2022 at 03:37pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Thanks for letting us know, we'll be here on pins and needles awaiting your thoughts
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-05-2022 at 05:35pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete ^^ Did someone wake up sarcastic this morning? ;-)
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-21-2022 at 12:55am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete My Perspectives are now at Joseph Audio getting upgraded. While I’m waiting, I’ll just mention some stuff I’ve been fiddling with in my system. I have experimented with all sorts of isolation devices under my Thiel speakers. The Thiel’s sit on a thick shag rug (yeah baby!) overlaying a sprung wood floor. I’d changed my listening position somewhat and, perhaps also due to playing about with different tubes on my amp (some a bit more bottom-heavy), I had a bit of extra bass warmth to work out. I’d tried various things over time. The problem is that I’m super picky about the tone and timbre of my system. It’s pretty much exactly where I want it. Any change to that and..well...for me it’s not worth it. And the issue is virtually every change to the bass frequencies tended to change the tone/timbre of the sound. So things I have tried: Subwoofers (crossed over, w room correction for bass frequencies). I got nice even sound with this, but it took away some punch, and altered the timbre too much. I tried some cheap amazon-bought spring footers. Those worked wonders in terms of decoupling the speakers from the floor. Everything tightened up and the speakers took on a more electrostatic like sound and disappearing act. However I found it lightened the tone too much, and took away some "feel" and palpability to the sound. Part of the sound I’m used to is the interaction of the speakers with the floor, so I can feel the sound more, and tonally I think this gives a feel of more solidity to the sound. Since I highly favor solidity and density, I’m not willing to give that up. I tried the highly lauded Townshend Isolation Bars - spring based again, though much more purpose-designed and also the bars didn’t raise the speakers much at all. I was hoping to get some of the tightening up, disappearing act that I got with the cheaper spring footers, but better and less tonal change. And, that’s pretty much what I got. The tone didn’t get to light-in-the-loafers. The speakers disappeared somewhat better. But ultimately I returned them because I found the tone changed too much, the sound seemed to soften somewhat, I still lost some room feel, and felt less engaged. For the heck of it I also tried the Primeacoustic RX7 Recoil Stabilzer platforms under the speakers. More foam-based with a metal shell upon which sat the speakers. This too isolated the speakers from the floor somewhat, but didn’t seem to have much effect on the sound - just if anything made it a little more soft/muddy for some reason. I also tried a few Primeacoustics bass traps. Didn’t really do anything. I’d actually bought a second version, larger which may have had more effect, but it was a pain-in-the-arse because it required lots of assembly. I couldn’t be bothered. So..finally...I got around to trying some Isoacoustic Gaia 2 isolators. I’m really late to the party with those. One reason is that I actually had some isoacoustic pucks left over from building an isolation base for my turntable. I’d tried the four of them under one speaker, didn’t think I heard anything I cared for. So I followed through with the Townshend stuff which seemed to be rated even higher than the isoacoustics for decoupling. (Plus...I’d done my own experiments measuring the vibration isolation properties of the Townshend springs vs the Isoacoustic pucks I had, and the Townshends provided far superior decoupling). What I was looking for, ideally, was to get enough isolation beneath the speakers such that the bass would tighten up, they’d disappear some more, but not SO much that I lose any sense of room feel and palpability to the sound that happens when I fully decoupled with spring footers. I figured perhaps the Isouacoustic Gaia just might be that that 1/2 way point. And...that is pretty much what I seem to be getting! With the Gaia’s installed, the bass tightened up pretty nicely, the speakers did vanish a bit more from top to bottom, a bit more space around instruments/voices, but the speakers still have some density and punch as well. I’m still getting used to it, evaluating if I’m going to keep the Gaias under the speakers or not. It did slightly change the tone of the speakers and I’m not sure how I’ll get along with that. I need more listening. But so far I’m quite impressed with the product. Plus, I have another secret weapon in my tweak box. But this post has already gone on too long so I’ll save it for another post....
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-23-2022 at 05:05am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete To finish off the above... Quite a while ago I'd bought a curved diffusor to play around with: I wanted to try diffusion for a sidewall reflection point rather than the absorbtion (heavy velvet) I'd been using. Turned out I didn't care for the diffussor in front of the speaker at the reflection point on the wall. I found it brightened and hardened the sound from that side too much (probably wasn't optimal use for it anyway). But I had much better luck placing it in positions behind one or another speaker, where it would make the sound a bit more snappy and focused. Not long ago I tried it right in between and behind my speakers, sitting on the big center channel speaker I use for my home theater system. Wow! This was amazing! The effect was to sort of make all the sound and imaging become both more textured, and lively and dense sounding. Everything just became more solid and life-like! And varying the position slightly gave all sorts of different tweaks to the sound - some more lush, others giving the upper mids more forward presence, etc. So far I've found the combination of the effect of the Gaia footers and this diffusor to be really something. The Gaias make the speakers disappear more and do more 3D, and the Diffusor brings back a sense of density and punch to the sound, close to a best of both worlds. At this point I'm able to get from the Thiels all the qualities I have liked about them, yet added some of the aspects I liked in the Devore speakers, so I'm feeling super satisfied with the set up. I have not tried the diffusor or Gaias with the Joseph Audio Perspectives yet, as they are away being upgraded. I have a feeling the combo might be magic! Oh, also today I listened to some Audio Note speakers and the new Mo-Fi Source Point 10 speakers. I'll write about them either here or in the Mo-Fi thread.
fsonicsmith Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 957 posts 12-23-2022 at 04:03pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof I hope you will write about "them" here. I look forward to reading your thoughts and hearing which AN model you auditioned. I imagine that with your writing skills you will meaningfully convey the strengths and weaknesses of the MoFi project. My own jaded view is that every few years there are two types of loudspeaker break-outs. The grass root audio-fan variety such as the Acoustic Zen Adagio followed by the Tekton phenomenon and the industry variety such as the KEF LS50 and now this MoFi speaker. My own take is that as with the old adage that "where there's smoke there is fire", there is likely something legitimate sparking and igniting the enthusiasm but that at the end of the day there is more sizzle than actual steak. Sorry for the mixed metaphors but you might note the common element to my metaphors is fire. After many years in this hobby my view is that loudspeakers are the bane of this hobby. They at once command most of our emotional-but not so rational- attention and yet let us down the most of any component in the system. We all start out with the highest of hopes that one loudspeaker will deliver us to the promised land of consistent nirvana only to have our hopes dashed on the rocks of hard reality. No wonder that Jim Smith spends more time addressing loudspeaker issues than to any other aspect of the system. I no longer look at my loudspeakers as anything other than a compromised gateway to sound that minimize undesirable characteristics and get the important things right. And with this view in mind one can better understand the emerging phenomenon of high-end (expensive) no-compromise headphones and headphone amps.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-23-2022 at 11:21pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Wise words fsonicsmith! I actually wrote my impressions of the SP10s in another forum. My fingers are typed out. I'll get one here (or in the SP10 thread) soon.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-23-2022 at 11:46pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Since this thread tends to collect my various speaker impressions, I'm pasting in what I wrote about hearing the new Mo-Fi Source Point 10 speakers here as well: ------------------------- Source Point 10s: The SP10s were in a dedicated room, I'm guessing maybe 12' wide by maybe 16' deep, set up on the short wall, pulled probably about 4 feet in to the room, mild toe in towards the seating position. Listening sofa was probably 9 feet or so from the speakers. Room had some sidewall treatment - absorption mostly I think, maybe some diffusion. First impression visually: Everyone who has reviewed these is right. They look "kinda big" for stand mounted speakers in photos and videos, but in person you will let out an involuntary Keannu Reeves level "Whoah!" They are beasts. Big, blocky, imposing in a room. Not something one will sneak past the other half. This is dedicated room type stuff - like the speakers should be paying rent! The finish (walnut) was "nice" though not in to the "lux" category. As for wider baffle design speakers I really like the Devore O/96 which are even wider, but to me the SP10s, while not ugly (I kind of like the design) are more imposing visually, almost brutalist in their presence. Before I get in to details, my main take away was: I get why people are liking these speakers. I can see how they will become quite popular. I personally found them to have a fairly attractive sound, as a place to visit, but not to live with, if you know what I mean. And a major take away - these beasts are finicky! Which will come out when I try to describe what I heard. I listened to various tracks - first selections by the salesman, Addelle, Tracy Champman (fast car), some jazz/pop, some Zeppelin, then some of my usual test tracks. From a seat on the listening sofa, leaning forward a bit, I was probably around 8 feet from the speakers and the immediate impression was of a big, rich, warm sound with a slight peak in the upper mids/lower highs, and beyond that a slight lack of "air." So for instance a track with stand up bass, female vocals, acoustic guitar, sax, drums etc, the sound was very big, rich, room filling from the upper bass down, the vocals had enough body to sound somewhat natural, and atop that "dark rich bassy" sound there was a sparkle so that the acoustic guitars would pop out in a nice, vivid manner, as would higher vocal transients, drum cymbals, upper register of a sax being played hard. So that richness with sparkle was quite inviting, and I can see how many would like it. It did, as mentioned, seem more rolled off in the highest frequencies lacking that last bit of shimmer or 'air' that makes a cymbal sound like it pops out of the sound and could be in the room with you. So I describe this as being a bit on the "darker" side of neutral. So that immediate impression was that, yeah, these are unlikely to measure as neutral speakers. I wouldn't go so far as to say they are in the Klipsch category, but I did hear a sort of similar sculpting of the sound. But here's the thing: then I leaned backwards, in to the back seat of the sofa. As I did so, the sound changed and snapped in to focus, brightening, sounding more coherent, but also losing richness. There was now a greater sense of vividness, snap and "realism" to drums, wood blocks, vocals etc. The bass warmth cleared up somewhat. This was a significantly different presentation! So I started experimenting with different listening positions - closer, further, moving side to side, standing up, moving off axis etc. For imaging, the image shifted fairly quickly to one speaker as I moved off axis. The tonal balance shifted a bit, but less so. Standing up the sound significantly "lightened" in tone, the timbre gaining a bit more edge and vividness, also sounding a bit leaner. (I actually somewhat liked that tone when standing). Way off axis, the speakers still sounded nice, though things really snapped in in the centre listening position. This was interesting because most of my experience with coaxially mounted drivers is that they have been very tolerant of off axis listening. But I suppose this is because the ones I've heard most - e.g. the KEF speakers and my Thiels, had the tweeters mounted with much smaller drivers. In the case of my Thiel 2.7s (and the bigger 3.7s I owned), Thiel had gone to lengths to reduce the surrounding mid driver's influence on the tweeter - the mid driver surrounding the tweeter is actually flat (corrugated, actually). I have been constantly amazed at how smooth and regular the sound is from the Thiels, whether I'm closer or further to them, listening off axis, from just inside or outside the room, the general sound character remains very consistent. That's also true of my Joseph speakers. But, man, the SP10s really were sensitive to listener position! If I recall correctly, it is due to the much larger 10" driver surrounding the tweeter, which I think AJ has said act as something of a wave guide. If so, that would help explain what I was experiencing. Since the SP10s really changed character with listening distance (at least in that room) I tried to find the balance of "rich/warm" but still vivid enough in the highs to not sound obviously rolled off, hence some excitement. I was probably about 9 to 10ish feet or so at this point. One thing I found is that generally speaking I found the sound to remain somewhat "speakerly." By that I mean, while they did excellent, vivid point-source imaging, TONALLY the speakers didn't totally "disappear" as apparent sound sources - there was a sort of boxy-sounding warmth I was often aware of, with those slightly exaggerated upper mid peak sort of perched on top, that reminded me "I'm hearing the sound from a speaker." I can't say that whether this was a resonance from the speaker, or due to it's particular frequency response design, or if (and I think this might be likely) the way the bass frequencies were interacting with this particular room. This is one reason why I view this as a finicky speaker. The SP10s did bass! Subjectively with tracks that had low bass they sounded deep and really room filling. However, in this room I felt really low bass, e.g. from some stand up bass and a pop track with low synth/guitar bass, there was a bit too much "bloom." On the other hand, a track I often play, "Missing" by Everything But The Girl, has a bass line that is tough for many speakers to get right - it's a very round sounding pulsing bass line that can sound very ill-defined on lots of speakers. It sounded really well controlled, dead center in the soundstage not blurring, and tight on the SP10s, so I could hear the distinct articulation from the bass player. The fact the SP10 could sound impressively tight with some bass, but overwarm with other stuff, made me think there was possibly some room interactions not favoring this speaker in the lower regions. I was not able to get a perfect balance in this regard - if I was close enough so the sound filled out, giving warmth to sax, vocals etc the bass could be too rich, if I moved to far back, I found the sound brightened and leaned out more than I cared for. How about the sense of dynamics? From what I heard, very good but not top tier. I think I may have been expecting a bit too much, for some reason I thought this speaker might combine something more like the dynamic life I hear from horn speakers. But it wasn't really. They sounded fun and engaging and relatively propulsive in how they combined "feel it in the whole room" bass response with those vivid upper frequencies. But when I listened for how things like horns, wood blocks, bongos etc sounded, they didn't have that "holy cow" sense of solidity and propulsion that makes me think "THAT sounds like a wood block being played right in front of me." (I DID get those type of impressions from, for instance, the Klipsche La Scalas my friend had, as well as some other horn based speakers I've heard). I actually think my Thiels give a better impression of a solid/dense object popping out in to the room than what I heard from the SP10s. (And the Devore O/96 as well). One of the things that stuck in my mind was hearing Led Zeppelin on the SP10s. Kashmir in this case. The sound was generally punchy and fairly vivid. But Kashmir as any Zep listener would know, doesn't actually have much low bass. It's a pretty lean recording in that regard, which is kind of good to see how a speaker handles this - the recording doesn't have much bass to speak of, but Bonham is bashing away on those drums so a speaker better translate that energy! The SP10s did so quite well. So, yeah, they rock. But I also heard the same Zep track (and others) on the B&W 803 D4 speakers. And there was definitely a contrast in the presentations. I ultimately find the B&W sound a bit too sculpted for my taste, that rising top end etc. However, damn, they HAVE sort of perfected "that" sound, and while they may not have chosen a perfectly flat frequency response, they have otherwise gone to fairly heroic methods in the design of their drivers/enclosure, emphasis on dynamics etc. And it shows. Zeppelin on the B&Ws had an utter, open peering-in-to-the-studio sense of clarity from top to bottom. Not a jot of blur or darkness, whether I was focusing on the guitar, super vivid vocals, sparkling clean cymbals, or the tight holographically placed bass and kick drums. The SP10s did not have this type of 'holy cow' sense of clarity and control from top to bottom. (I also find my Thiels better in that regard). The SP10s had a "sweeter" more laid back sound, even WITH their slight peak in the lower treble. Can I see someone preferring the sound of the the SP10s, which can be seen as a very nice combination of richness with some vividness, but not overbearing or "analytical" in the old school parlance. The SP10s were generally more relaxing to listen to than the always-on-the-edge-of-my-seat vivid sound from the B&Ws. Still, by the end of my listening session with the SP10s I was starting to feel a little ear fatigue! It could be that my ears are in a more sensitive phase (I sometimes get ear sensitivity), but I do think I was reacting somewhat to that slightly peaky sounding response, even if not overtly "bright" sounding to my ears, over time. So, that's about all I have on these things. It wasn't a long speaker audition. Nor nearly as extensive as the ones I do for a speaker that I seem to really like (where I will play with speaker positioning in a room, not just my listening position, to get to the bottom of things). To sum up: I found the SP10s to be something of a chameleon depending on where I sat. Closer they sounded rich and warm in the upper bass down with a nice lower highs sparkle but with the highs seemingly rolled off above the attack of drum cymbals etc. Further back they snapped in as more vivid, exciting speakers, they disappeared more, though lost a bit of richness and sounded more "monitor like." But never seemingly fully neutral to my ears. I can imagine that under the right circumstances I'd like these speakers more, if the set up was dialed in just so. And the flip side of how finicky they are can be that different listeners may be able to realize just the type of presentation they want - from vivid and monitor-like to bigger, richer, smoother and more "comfy" sounding with some attractive sparkle.
fsonicsmith Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 957 posts 12-24-2022 at 02:22am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Thanks Matt Hooper.
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 12-24-2022 at 08:50pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete As for the Audio Note speakers I heard: It was in the same store as the Source Point 10s. They were set up in a pretty small room, fairly typical AN style, closer to the back wall, angled towards the listening seat. Powered by Peach Tree amplification. I was frankly shocked at the sound. My previous encounters with AN speakers, including when I auditioned a pair, were that they had a generally warm, organic timbre, though also vivid and present. Definitely quite close to the sound I like. These AN speakers sounded TERRIBLE. The sound was immediately bright and shrill, all steely, silvery upper frequencies, no body to the mids, and the bass had a woofy "wall-reinforced" character. I couldn't really stand listening to them for more than sampling a few tracks. I'm not sure even a better set up could bridge the gap between what I heard and how those particular speakers can perform. I did ask what model they were but frankly I couldn't retain it. Audio Note changes a wire in a speaker and suddenly it's slapped with a new-but-very-similar model number and new price. I didn't care enough to remember that model name. Sorry.
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 12-25-2022 at 03:18am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I wonder if the issue was the Peachtree amplification (?)
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 01-13-2023 at 02:47am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete My upgraded Perspectives have arrived back at my dealer. Can't pick them up this week so I'll have them early next week. I have to say, given how great I have the Thiels sounding at this point the Perspectives have their work cut out for them!
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 01-13-2023 at 03:46am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete I’m sure you’ll allow a few hours before making a comparison but will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the upgraded Perspectives when once you get them and run them in.
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 981 posts 03-23-2023 at 06:34pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Over 2 months and no update from the PROF on his upgraded Perspectives...C'MON MAN!! :)
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 03-24-2023 at 01:16am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Yeah, I know. Sorry. I've been distracted by all sorts of stuff. I'll get back to the Perspectives as soon as I can. They are sounding great!
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 04-04-2023 at 10:17pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Ok sorry for the delay. Here's my report on my upgraded Perspective 2s: I'd sold almost all my extra audio gear over the past several years, which went in to my 'audio funds' that I could use for upgrades or a new purchase. Part of that went to the purchase of a Benchmark LA4 preamp, which I love (but I'm not selling my CJ Premier 16LS2 preamp any time soon!). A new Transrotor motor controller for my turntable. Lots of tubes when I was tube rolling (and grabbing spares for back up), new Bluesound NODE (replacing my raspberry Pi which was giving me intractable problems). And a very expensive Lumagen Pro video processor, which I had to buy to replace my old one which died (and which would also allow me to join the world of 4K HDR images on my projector). Anyway, I had a final sum left over and my mind tossed "should I use it to grab some Devore O/baby speakers...because I've always wanted some Devore speakers. Or do I scratch the upgrade itch on the Perspectives?" On one hand, my original Perspectives sounded so damned good, why wouldn't I just enjoy them as is, and grab the Devores? Then I'd have speakers from my 3 favorite brands. Done! However, a few things pushed me toward upgrading the Perspectives. Number one is that I'd been selling off gear because I had too much. And so the idea of bringing in yet another pair of speakers in to my stable was going against that general goal of paring down. The other was: I really don't like the bright oak finish on the O/babys. I much prefer a darker more discrete wood finish. The other was really typical audiophile-brain stuff: As much as I love the Perspectives, I'd always wonder "could it be better? Even a slighter better Perspectives sound close to end-game speakers for me." Ah what fools we are! And I liked what I'd read about the sonic changes from the originals to the graphene version: smoother slightly more laid back high frequencies, better bass performance. So I rolled the dice and sent off my perspectives for the upgrade a while back, and I've had them in my system since mid January. The thing is, for the last year I've had my Thiel 2.7s set up because I started tweaking my system, especially with tube rolling, and also room treatment, and needed the speakers to be kept as a constant reference. I got the Thiels sounding so bloody good that while the Perspectives were away I thought "oh boy, I wonder if the Perspectives will be able to keep up now." When I plunked the upgraded Perspectives in to my system they definitely sounded excellent, though it had been so long since I heard my originals I really couldn't say with confidence what was that different/better. And, yeah, I had the Thiels dialed in so well the Perspectives didn't immediately knock my socks off compared to them. So it's taken a while of dialing in the Perspectives, room position, seating position, and especially trying various things underneath them (e.g. Isoacoustic Gaia, various footers, a bass that I built). Over time I made progress. So at this point how do they sound? Unfriggin' believable! I have them well out from the back wall, spread pretty wide apart, raised on a bass I made, and powered by my CJ Premier 12 140w/side monoblocks. I found the sound really came together when I switched to the KT120 tubes on my CJs, which added that bass depth and control and gravity, and fattened out and enlarged the sound somewhat. The result is a truly CinemaScope soundstaging and imaging experience, barely hinted at in my store demos of the Perspectives. It's just wall-melting, with palpable, clean clear tonally gorgeous instruments and voices appearing everywhere in the immense stage. Bass is tonally controlled, and can also be floor-rumbling deep. I actually just came back from my friend's house where I played some of my records on the speakers he has at the moment: $65,000USD Estelon speakers, giant Hegel amps etc. I sometimes visit my friend to hear equipment he's reviewing with a little trepidation, because though I will always prefer my own system, dialed as it is to my own tasted, I'll often hear certain things his review stuff does better, then I'll see if I can get some more of that in my system. Anyway, the Estelon system WAS very impressive! Really precise images carved out in very well-described space, with an excellent sense of density and palpability. If played really loud, I'll bet they can sound quite realistic (as far as that goes). But when I came home and spun the same stuff on my system, I was actually even more blown away. The Perspectives kept up surprisingly well in terms of the revelation of detail, didn't have quite the density (giant solid state amps will help with that as well in my friend's system), but other than that the presentation was far more open, detached from the speakers, massive, and almost psychedelic, as well as to my ears tonally more "correct" and gorgeous. Playing some Depeche Mode on both speakers, the Estelon system had a very precise imaging of some starting bass synth pulses, very dense, that solid state "grip" and hint of low bass grunt. On the other hand, on the Perspectives (again, powered by classic CJ tube amps remember) those same notes sounded nicely described as well, and were a bit bigger, rounder, and had a bit more "reach" as in a sense of "room feel." In other words, the bass synth notes on the Estelon system were tight fisted and controlled so they sat back in the mix, where the Perspectives bass had more "feel it" sensation with each bass note, which for me connected me more with the music. Perspectives verses my Thiels? Pretty much the same as I've described before. The Perspectives have no right to sound so huge and rich given their size. But the Thiels sound yet a bit bigger and richer, and also create a massive soundstage. The imaging sounds a bit more clean and fully detached from the Perspectives though. Also, while the Perspectives can really slam for their size, the Thiels with their larger cabinet size and 3-way design, with an 8" woofer, can still sound a bit more solid an authoritative, especially for bass and drums. The combo of doing most things really well, plus a higher level of smoothness and tonal finesse , goes to the Perspectives. So how much better are they than the originals? Still can't say for sure. But I do know I'm sometimes getting sound presentation beyond what I remember hearing before in my system. So, that's where I am with the Perspectives at this point. Very happy.
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 04-06-2023 at 03:05am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof Thanks for sharing your impressions of the upgraded Perspective2s. I share your enthusiasm regarding these wonderful speakers. I think I mentioned before that I got myself a new Aavik U-280 integrated amp. This amp really showed me how much more the Perspectives are capable of. The soundstage width and depth increased quite significantly. Imaging became more precise. I was shocked to hear how much more bass the Perspectives can produce. I ended up selling my REL subwoofers as I found them to be redundant. The Aavik + Perspective combo is really out of this world -- extremely powerful yet so refined and smooth. I'm glad the upgrade worked for you. Happy listening!
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 981 posts 04-06-2023 at 05:04pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete Prof, Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience with the Graphene version. Glad your thrilled with them. I might actually prefer the originals because I like hotter highs/sparkle and the added bass wouldnt do anything for me. I remember hearing that complaint from some with the Pulsars...they loved the originals and upgraded only to find the Bass didnt work in the room anymore. (Not sure why they wouldnt just buy an EQ and try to tone it down) I'll grab a pair of either version down the road at some point. Again....appreciate your efforts immensely doing all these "reviews". Your Journey is over!!
prof OP Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 3,473 posts 04-06-2023 at 07:30pm Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @arafiq Yes I remember you mentioning the Aavik amp. That’s a pricey bit of gear! Funny you mention selling your REL subs; I’m actually considering adding a REL sub, just to try at some point - e.g. T9X. The Perspectives are putting out goregous bass, even more so with the KT120 tubes in my system. In fact they sound richer than the Estelon speakers I mentioned. That said, I’m still aware that my Thiels, with their 3-way and 8" woofer design, seem to have a bit more authority in the bass. I haven’t tried adding a sub to the Perspectives (and still might not bother), but with the Thiels I did try JL Audio 110E subs, with their crossover and DSpeaker room correction. In the end I found it more of a headache and more complexity than it was worth in terms of sonic results. So the only attraction with the REL is going another simper route, and if it doesn’t work...easy to sell. I was thinking of grabbing a solid state amp at some point, just as something different to go to. My preference would be SimAudio gear, since I’ve heard the Perspectives sound spectacular on their amps a number of times. I tried a Bryston 4B3 and got some extra solid state grip and punch, but in terms of richness, tone and finesse I went running back to my tube amps. And, again, adding the KT120 tubes, what they did for bass, doesn’t have me missing SS much even in that department. Still...maybe one day... @riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook Yes your intuitions are wise. I had similar cautions about doing the Perspective upgrade. I have sensitive ears and the originals were always smooth, but the promise of even smoother highs was tempting. Though I also worried about getting too laid back in the highs. And I worried about overblown bass. So far the bass, while sometimes tipping a bit over-rich on certain material, much of which I put down to room nodes and using a tube amp, is for the most part beautifully controlled. Moreso than my Thiels. I hear more specific detail going on in bass instruments, and there is a nice "feel it" to the bass which really connects me to the music. The highs on the Perspective 2s are just as extended and airy and sparkly sounding as the originals. Absolutely gorgeous. Though as a nit pick it’s still the case, as with the originals, that the highs are a bit more laid back, softer, thinner than some other speakers (like my Thiels, or what you’d get from a Focal or B&W or even a Harbeth to a degree). So what I mean is that things like triangles and cymbals sound tonally ravishing and clear and clean, but are a bit more laid back and have slightly less body than some other speakers. The kick drum and snare will tend to drive a track more than the cymbal work. (Though...still...the highs are so clear that it makes cymbal work even more evident, so I’m hearing more of what a drummer is playing than on the thicker, richer sounding Thiels). So the Devore O series definitely still prevail over the Perspectives in that "giving the sound body from the bottom to the very top." But...you can’t have everything. Having lived with the disappearing act, massively wide, deep soundstaging and precise imaging of the Perspectives, I think I’d have a hard time stepping back from that to the more constrained imaging of the Devore O speakers. Though, who knows how those would have performed soundstaging-wise in my home. A few notes from recent listening: I played a mid-80s album (The Velocity Of Love) from the early female electronic music artist Suzanne Ciani. I couldn’t ask for the gently swirling synth pads (in a massive soundscape) and sequencers to be rendered more beautifully: liquid, textured, the changing high frequency character of the envelopes, wonderfully described. I received an album this week of a rare 70’s soundtrack, The Internecine Project, which, typical of the time and composer Roy Budd’s oeuvre, was full of sparse, slightly jazzy, highly varied instrumentation, in the classic "massive acoustic staging" production. The boundaries of the soundstage just felt endless in my room, instruments popping up close, medium, waaaay off in to the distance, sudden percussion flourishes or a harpsichord flashing in and out vividly. Also playing Depeche Mode’s album Music For The Masses, the combination of the Perspective’s finesse at digging out the tonal beauty of the synths, every bit of reverb, the panoramic soundstaging, and the richness of the lower mids down, just makes for spectacular sonics. Like the song StrangeLove, which starts with some compact, dense, bright synth hits that are just so clear, and then that industrial-style kick drum and angular synth bass kicks in together, and it’s like this huge column of dense, punchy power in the center which ignites reverb that spreads out melting the walls away. And through the song, the balance of tinkly popping out to grab your attention synth sparkles, along with dense, rich, weighty growling synth parts, is just so satisfying on the Perspectives. I heard the same tracks on the Estelon speakers and while they did a vivid clear thing too, it was nothing like the effect I get with the Perspective in my set up. (The Estelons sound much tighter and more constrained between the speakers...often cited in reviews...where the Joseph speakers seem to image more independent of the speakers, with a more open soundstage). Whoops...there I go...writing too much again. I’ll stop.
arafiq Details Discussions Posts This discussion Message User 1,665 posts 04-07-2023 at 02:42am Copy Comment URL Report Comment Edit Delete @prof Yes I remember you mentioning the Aavik amp. That’s a pricey bit of gear! Aavik's new line of integrated amps is actually quite affordable considering what you get. Their I series includes I-180 ($7500), I-280 ($12000), and I-580 ($20,000). I have the U-280, which is basically I-280 integrated and D-280 DAC and retails for $18000. Obviously, no on pays full retail. It replaced some really good gear (Audio Hungary Qualiton a50i and Denafrips Terminator 2) and I can tell you that the performance is orders of magnitude better than anything I've owned. For the first time in my audio journey I don't miss tubes. It really controls the Perspectives like a boss!

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