ghasely,
Great! How exciting. Thanks for the early report.
I'm especially curious if the O/baby carry on the O series character of sounding more robust, thick and substantial for their size. I wouldn't expect them of course to match the bigger speakers, but would hope they give that sense of density and body to the sound that I find many speakers lack.
Also really curious as to the quality of the upper frequencies with that tweeter.
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I'm happy to see your opinion on this!
Yup, horses for courses.
I actually think plenty of light colored speakers look beautiful. But they wouldn't match well in my room, and as I've said I ultimately prefer darker because I don't like being super conscious of speaker drivers producing the sound. (My Thiel
2.7s work well with the grills on, so not a problem. My Joseph Perspectives actually sound better with the grills off. But, fortunately I find the SEAS drivers and the copper-ringed tweeter look particularly classy so don't mind the look during the day. When I listen I usually turn down the portion of lights facing the Joseph speakers - I have a projection screen that lights up with colors behind the speakers - and so I can't see the drivers anymore which allows me to ignore them as sound sources).
As long as we can agree that Black Ash finish is unconscionable.
If not, we can't be friends.
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Yes you are of course right keithr. Who is Jim Smith? Thanks.
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@keithr
I haven't heard Fyne yet. Would like to. Beautiful speakers!
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No other opinions I guess?
I was curious what others thought of the new Devore O/baby - both in terms of the looks and if they find them intriguing. Anyone going to seek these out?
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70seradylan
Main competitors would of course be a matter of personal taste.
I haven't heard the O/baby, but I would think if you generally like the Devore O series sound - big and rich - Harbeth naturally come to mind (perhaps certain classic Spendor speakers as well). For instance the Harbeth 30s, C7ES, SuperHLplus (or the older version, second hand).
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mtrot,
Thanks!
Yes the Magico A3 is is the ONE other speaker still on my list, for obvious reasons. But I’m trying to resist. It’s a great price and in some ways a suitable size...but hard to hear (though I could drive across the border to hear them). Plus one big strike against them for me is: no nice wood grain finish available, so stuck with the black monolith look. And also no speaker grills. I’ve always preferred speaker grills on a speaker, rather than open drivers, as I can’t help but "see/hear" the sound as coming from the speaker drivers. Once they are covered up, speakers tend to disappear from the presentation much better.
(Also, note I did audition the Focal Kanta 2).
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Devore Fidelity O/96 Speakers
I was able to listen to these twice over the past few weeks.
I found them to be terrific in the ways most people think they are terrific. They definitely have an "it" factor to their sound, their own thing that, if it grabs you, it grabs you.
First, I have always loved the looks from photos, and in person they are beautiful. And that’s HUGE for me as I really like audio jewelry. When I pay for high end gear, speakers in particular, it’s going to be essentially new furniture in my living/listening/AV room. I spent a lot renovating that room to look as nice as possible and I don’t care to throw ugly or plain boxes in there.
The Joseph Audio Perspectives to me are lustworthy not only for their sound but for their great form and awesome cabinetry/wood grains.
The Devore O/96s strike the same "speaker lust" in me. They are funky looking, charmingly retro yet contemporary, with a gratifyingly high end level of finish. My wife even thought so from photos (not a common occurrence for her).
First impressions is that the 96s are significantly smaller in person than they looked to me in photos. That’s a good thing when I’m looking to downsize. Yet at the same time they sounded HUGE, more reminiscent of my big Thiel 3.7s. Everything took on an added sense of body and size, from massed strings, to horns, to acoustic guitars, to even wood blocks. And especially piano!
I was especially struck by a kind of crappy recording I played of a Satie piece. The piano has always sounded thin and distant and dull. But on the 96s the piano came closer to me and actually sounded large! And it actually sounded like it had a body, a sounding board. It was tweaking the "that’s a piano in front of me" parts of my brain, that grew up playing piano. Fascinating.
Timbre of instruments seem great: warm, and rich and organic. And they can do the "golden tone" that I love from a system.
They also sound really alive, open and extended giving the "instrument right THERE playing" impression. But without the mild aggression I felt from some other speakers on my list.
Two things that really stuck out are massed strings and drum cymbals. Massed strings sounded substantial, with a heft many speakers miss with their more wispy, thin presentation of massed strings. And massed strings came with bow-texture, yet silky,. That combination that gets closer to the real thing vs the "this could be a sampled string section" sound from so many systems. I’ve rarely heard massed strings sound that much like themselves on a speaker. (The Joseph speakers do very well here too, but without as much size and weight).
Drum cymbals were amazingly realistic. I played a track with a drum solo I’m familiar with (if you want your system to absolutely bristle with the energy of a stand up bass played with frenetic energy, get bassist Koichi Osamu’s album The Chord. You’ll thank me later!). It felt like I was in the middle of the drum set and the cymbals had that BIG open splashing quality of the real thing. So rare to hear drum cymbals sound that real.
Soundstaging/Imaging: They did a surprising soundstaging act for speakers that look so squat. Sometimes images happened well off to the side corners of the speaker, some well back in the center, and usually BIG images. Though it was hard to get an exact read on this aspect. Sometimes it seemed like the 96s bring instruments forward in the mix (worried me about not getting the soundstage depth I’m used to) but other times seem to spread out the images in a very convincing manner.
When seated with head above the tweeter, they also sound taller than they are, which is a neat trick. Though still not as tall as the Thiel 2.7s which have a very realistic image height.
So great warmth of tone, fullness, allied to alive, open and convincing yet unfatiguing high frequencies. That is quite a trick!
The upper frequencies are definitely more directional than I’m used to at home. The Thiels (and in auditioning, the Josephs) sound much the same tonally almost no matter where I move. Whereas I found listener position more critical for the Devores to snap into focus, both tonally and in terms of imaging. Also, they seemed to snap into focus and bloom in imaging once I hit 8 feet from the speakers - as John Devore has suggested. On the other hand, some reviewers and others seem to use the 96s closer and seem happy. I tried around 7 feet off and on, which is about as far away from me as I’d be able to place them, and while they lost a teeny bit of coherence and snap, they did also become smooth and enveloping. Thing is I really should have toed them in a bit more when I moved a bit closer!
Bass on the 96s, in a decent size room with high ceilings, was fascinating. It had a bigger, bloomier quality vs the Thiels which are laser focused and punchy for bass. Certainly there was some additional bloom - a more critical moment would call it "bloat" - on the stand up bass in Talk Talk’s Happiness Is Easy. And a couple other tracks. But aside from those, the bass came across as quite nimble and yet having a rich, lively reach-out-and-make-you-feel-it quality. The result of the bass character WITH the dynamic liveliness, clarity and snap in the upper frequencies meant drums were always fantastic. I was made aware by the 96s, more than any speaker I can remember, of how the drummer was playing, the ebb and flow, the differences in impact between each snare hit, each bass drum hit. It was impossible not to boogey to these speakers.
Once at home playing the same tracks again on the Thiel 2.7, the Thiels impressed me with their massive soundstage, incredibly precise and dense imaging, punchy quality and great tone. If I missed anything sometimes it was the thickness and heft of instruments and voices on the Devores (though the Thiels are surprisingly good here), and especially the open, alive yet smooth quality of the Devore high frequencies. Acoustic guitars, drum cymbals etc don’t have quite the aliveness as on the Devores, and string tone has always been so-so on the Thiels (though helped by my getting into vinyl), but closer to exquisite on the Devores (and excellent, silky and clear on the Josephs).
So over all, a very promising speaker that has thrown a kink into my plans on route to the Joseph Perspectives. They are two quite different sounding speakers that do their own thing almost peerlessly. Both would be around the same price.
Drivin’ me a bit nuts.
One thing is the Devore Dealer would give me a good trade in price on my Thiels toward a purchase of the 96s. That would be nice, not having to sell them myself. But I do have some major questions as to whether their size/shape will work in my room, as it’s also my home theater room, and speakers too wide may impede the screen image.
Still lots to think about, but thought I"d share what I’ve heard so far.
(And I pretty much consider myself done in speaker auditioning. Right now it’s the Josephs or the Devores...or just sticking with the Thiels).
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@kdude66
Thanks for the input.
The Gibbon X would be to large, and too expensive.
@roberjerman,
LOL.
I'll definitely cop to bouts of A-neurosis! Though to be fair to myself, it tends to center around speakers only. Most of my gear is old (amps, cables etc I've had for 20 years) and I don't fuss with changing it. The last time I went on a round of auditioning like this to replace my speakers was over 20 years ago! But when I get the itch, I make sure to look at all options.
And, ironically given your suggestion, it was a dissatisfaction with owning Quad ESL 63s that led to that round of speaker auditioning 20 years ago! (I don't find ESL's satisfying - I like the palpability of dynamic speakers).
I bought the Thiel 3.7s three years ago with a scheme of making them mobile to bring in and out of my listening room. It didn't pan out. If their size hadn't become an issue I wouldn't have sought to replace them as they do pretty much everything I could ask for, for their price.
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fsonicsmith,
I'm also going to check out the Devore 93s as a dealer just got those in. They would be more affordable, and take up even less space. Though I'm not as sold on the looks as I am on the 96s.
Devore was indeed a recent discovery for me, as I hadn't heard them before (though was aware of the brand).
I didn't pull the trigger on the Perspectives earlier because I had to save money for them. I'm certainly aware there is no perfect speaker (but I'll tell you, for my money the Thiel 3.7 was as close as it gets for anything I'd likely be able to afford).
mtrot,
Thanks. Yup, Tidal speakers definitely fit my ideal of "audio jewlery" in speakers. I've always admired their design and wood finishes and love the looks of that new model. It's waaaaay out of my price league.
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I'd definitely be using the Devores, or the Josephs, with my tube amps - Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140w/side monoblocks. Still goin' strong! They've been able to drive every speaker I've thrown at them.
Both Josephs and Devores are touted as tube-friendly, at least in the case of impedance, but the Josephs have far lower sensitivity.
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Hey, I forgot to list another speaker I auditioned:
Kharma
Back in the day when they became something of the new rage among well heeled audiophiles, I'd heard several models, including in one gentelman's super high end set up. They impressed me with a combination of transparency, smoothness, richness, soundstaging...almost the whole ballgame. But overall I found the tone just a bit too much toward the "dark" side to really warm up to them.
Nonetheless a dealer suggested I listen to a used pair of Kharma CRM 3.2 FE speakers that he had for sale. I researched Kharma again and got quite excited at the prospect of owning a pair - great looks, good size for my room, wonderful high end pedigree in terms of construction, reputation etc. And it was a newer model, so I wondered what the Kharma sound was at this point.
What I heard again was that recognizable Kharma sound. For the size, the 3.2 threw a huge, transparent soundstage with full-bodied, rich images. The transparency and detail was superbly natural and unforced - effortlessly untangling the layers of sparkling guitars on, for instance, Johnny Cash's Solitary Man and I Won't Back Down, and making each distinct. Never with ear fatigue.
Unfortunately I found it veered a bit too much in to the "polite" terrifory, and the sound lost some of the excitement I was familiar with. The tone was also, as before, a bit too into the darkish territory for me. Finally, the bass wasn't nearly as tonal and controlled as I'd like. It was a Big Fat Bottom of a sound, probably great for filling out a big room. Unfortunately they were played in a room that was no doubt too small for them.
Anyway, just thought I'd add that one in...
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br3098
I guess I should have put it in the first post, but I mentioned it later: I use the Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube mono blocks, 140W/side.
It's one of the last CJ products that still had their "old school" sound. But the special thing about the Premier 12s is that they are just as Michael Fremer described in his old review of the amps: they give a great helping of the classic CJ richness, illumination and glow in the midrange, while maintaining great punch, power and grip in the bass region. At least at the time I bought them I'd never heard such a coherent tube amplifier. There is nothing I've thrown at them that they haven't been able to control, from low sensitivity/tough impedance speakers like Thiel (various models), Hales, MBL, to all the other speakers I've had, usually floor standing.
The combo of the CJ amps and the Thiel 3.7s produce in my room not only the best - most linear sounding, tight, tonal and controlled - bass I've had in my room. It's about the best bass in those parameters I've ever heard in a system. (Not "ultimate slam" bass, but rather free of any box effect or obvious coloration, bloat, etc). That's one reason it's been so tough in auditioning other speakers, the bar has been set pretty high. (The smaller Thiel 2.7s are also fabulous in the bass, but not quite as "perfect" as the bigger 3.7s).
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I just noticed another "dream speaker" of mine up for sale on Audiogon: a pair of Audio Physic Avantara, in ebony. I say "dream speaker" because I’ve always liked AP speakers and the Avantara got fantastic reviews as chomping at the heels of the best of the best flagships .
But there’s no way I’d spend that kind of coin without hearing them first, and being unsure of re-sale value if the didn’t work out.
I suspect the Devores would have good re-sale value. Harder to know about the JA Perspectives as they so rarely come on the used market.
Another speaker I was really curious about are the JansZen electrostatic hybrids. They get raves for their tonal purity, coherency and big sound in a small, cool looking design. I’ve never heard an electrostatic that didn’t exhibit the "ghostly musicians" effect (lack of palpable body to the sound) but I wonder if the sealed nature of the JansZens and the rest of the design finally fixes that issue.
Same for the Boenicke Speakers - would love to hear them.
Wilson Benesch is another intriguing brand I’ve never heard.
Anyway...not easy to hear ’round these parts, which is why I seem to be down to the JA and Devore speakers.
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Thanks for the comments and suggestions!
patrick, I appreciate the recommendation. As it happens the Ariel house sound and aesthetic has never grabbed me.
whoopycat, that's informative about the /93s. I'm curious how the 93s or 96s would work in my room. On one hand it's a modest sized room, on the other as I mentioned earlier it seems to work for any speaker I put in there so far. And this is even though, since switching the seating 180 degrees and renovating it for home theater use, I now have an extremely limited distance to deal with. All speakers end up well away from the back wall, which is good. But I have very, very little room to modulate the distance between me and the speaker, so between 7 1/2 to 6 /12 feet is about it.
jimmy, yes I've heard many Tannoys over the years. I often heard the older but very high end Tannoy Dimension
TD10's at my pal's house as well. Lovely sound, warm, big but a bit too far on the colored side. Going on memory, the Devore 96s seem to give much of the same warmth and fullness, but with a more realistic balance and presentation over all.
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acknowledged, jkorten.
I didn't find the O/96s to be "perfect" in the audition I had.
In some string quartet pieces, where the strings took turns slowly ascending to very high notes, I detected a lack of coherence sense of a "hand off" to tweeter - the sense the instruments were being composed of two different drivers.
I also noticed a strange mix of clarity and reticence: most often cymbals and other transients were bolder on the 96s and "popped" more than I hear at home. But occasionally it was the opposite, where some areas of, say, harp or piano, seemed a bit less vivid or pushed to the background. This would seem to match John Atkinson's comments in the Devore review where he found a bit of muffling/coloration in some midrange frequencies.
Of course...it also may not have been the case, and I wouldn't have such observations if set up at my home. Either way, overall they sounded terrific.
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jsm71,
Thanks for your input.
As I've mentioned before, JansZen is one of the speakers I've been very curious about, and read all the reviews. But no local dealers. I know I could buy them - I think they have a 30 day return policy? - but I'm not quite up to pulling that trigger on a speaker I've never heard. Further, the two dealers I'm talking to can do a financing scheme to spread the pain a bit, which is a help.
Hopefully some day I'll hear the JansZen speakers. They are a great size, I like the looks.
BTW, do they need to be plugged into the wall?
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A BIT MORE TO REPORT TODAY:
The Devore dealer got in the smaller O/93s last week. Burned them in (I’m pretty skeptical of equipment burn in, but whatever...) and then I listened to them today.
First impressions visually:
They are nice looking, nice finish, and being slightly less deep and less wide, they would make life easier in my room (the wider the speaker, the more potential of blocking the projection screen behind those speakers). They look easy to move around.
That said, the design does not have the "lust-inducing" factor that the bigger 96s have. Something about the dimensions of the 96, on their stands, just seems aesthetically more compelling.
Anyway, on to the sound:
The 93s sounded pretty much exactly as I imagined they would: They had essentially the "same" sound as the 96s, so much of my description would be a repeat of my earlier audition of the 96s. Big, warm, open, detail without fatigue, etc.
The soundstaging seemed a bit more limited in height vs the 96s, for whatever reason. It wasn’t bad or distracting, just generally looking lower at the "musicians." And when at the right seating position the 93s did a great disappearing and soundstaging act. Really open and spacious...though... still with that Devore signature that seems to pull everything closer to the listener. A drum set seems almost "in your lap" sometimes, single vocalists, e.g. Julie London, who are placed more distant on my Thiels and other speakers, sound larger and just behind the plane of the speakers. There’s usually a sense of "bringing the musicians here" vs transporting you "there."
The bass frequencies, though not spec’d as low as the 96s, seem comparable to the 96s, at least without a side by side. I could hear sometimes that the bass wasn’t as deep, but it definitely wasn’t a difference that stuck out. Bass had that big, round, room filling quality like the 96s. It’s an engaging bass character that reaches out and involves me, vs some audiophile speakers that can sound so controlled, distant and staid.
The two instruments that really grab me on the 96s continued to on the 93s: drums and acoustic guitars. Acoustic guitars have a sense of "touch" and texture that is very realistic and warm - strummed guitars especially sound so much like a guitar strumming in front of me. And the tonality of acoustic guitars, especially classical, seems really convincing and organically right.
Drum snares sound fat and tonally "that’s a drum" as do cymbals etc.
And something about the snap of the upper frequencies making drum snares pop, with the way the bass frequencies always make you hear and feel what the bass drum is doing, makes the two work together like real drummers in front of you do. I’m always more aware of the rhythm that’s being pounded in front of me.
I loved how big and fat the clavier was on some Commadores songs, e.g. Sweet Love hard panned right to begin with. It sounded wider, bigger than I’ve heard it before, more life-sized, but really in character of that instrument. Those big drivers and wide baffles do seem to aim more sound toward me, maintaining a bigger sound for voices and instruments.
The beginning of one song, The Groove Collective playing Louisaida from their We The People album, starts with an urban soundscape from which various percussion instruments seem to march toward you in the mix until they are full sized, whacking away. The Devores just love sounds like this because they capture that top end texture and air that gives the "percussion hitting the air in front of me" sensation. And there is a single wood block going on that, on the Devores, just leaps to front and center, almost a full sized wood block. Whereas on my Thiels it sounds smaller and a bit more distant. On the Devores, that wood block just floats big, just behind the speakers, and actually starts driving the rythms. Fascinating.
Like the 96s, the 93s are a speaker that I can just sit in front of, throw anything at all at them, and just flat out enjoy.
So...any snakes in Eden?
Sure, a couple.
The bass, like the 96s, did have a warm character that mostly served the music in most tracks. The occasional track, like Talk Talk’s Happiness Is Easy does show some extra bloat that isn’t there on other speakers (e.g. on my Thiels that stand up bass is just tonally solid and controlled top to bottom). So I do get a bit more of a "speaker is producing this bass" rather than just the instrument. But in most tracks, the bass warmth is actually very cannily integrated to enhance the sound.
Another issue is that for much of the audition I had the speaker grills on. I love the sound without the grills, but put them on because I find speaker drivers so distracting. Once they were on it really changed the listening experience for me, where, perceptually, the speakers "disappeared" much more as the creators of the sound in front of me, more like I get at home. The cost was a slight but obvious darkening of the sound, and loss of a bit of "air." The speaker with the grills retained most of the great things about the sound, but it is that last bit of opened up high frequency quality that helps the Devores sound so alive and convincing. With grills, they get *just nudged* into the "slightly darker than life" tonality.
Finally, what may turn out to be my biggest issue is one I mentioned before: listening distance. These things really DO seem to require some distance to sound their best. Once I’m 8 feet away the sound just snaps together, the high frequencies taking on a more vivid, snappy, extended and realistic character. Get even a bit closer, e.g. 7 feet which is my normal listening distance, and they still sound great, warm etc, but they do lose some vividness, snap, and the sense of vocal and instrumental separation.
Last time I’d wondered if this was perhaps simply due to the directionality of the partially-wave-guided tweeters, so that simpy leaning forward from 8 feet to 7 feet meant going a bit more off-axis the tweeters, hence the mellower sound.
But in this case when I leaned forward I had the dealer adjust the toe in accordingly to fact the speakers more toward me. It still didn’t give quite the same "snapping into place" quality as being 8 feet away. And too much toe-in started narrowing the sonic images more than I’d like. But 8 feet from the speakers, with the speakers about 8 to 9 feet apart is killer.
Finally, similar to the 96s, that character that gives that big lush image size and fullness also can seem to work against it sometimes in terms of separation of instruments and voices in the mix. Often they are awesome in this regard, but certain frequencies seem to "confuse" the 93s (and 96s) just a bit. So, for instance, tracks of the Los Angelese Guitar Quartet can sound a little bit more muddied when they are all playing complex lines together, whereas my Thiels at home do a superb job making each guitar discernible.
I think this also shows up a bit on some voices. For instance the Julie London track Cry Me A River is quite revealing on many speakers, as she tends to go down into a range where, it seems, some speakers perhaps resonate and there is this slight hoot/boxiness to some notes. This happened on the 93s. (When I hear things like this, I move my position around to make sure it isn’t just a room node I’m sitting in).
But, on the other hand, Julie sounded more life-sized (maybe even a bit bigger than life-sized), rich, lush, clear and present on the Devores. Like the Harbeths, the Devores give more of the human being, chest, not just mouth etc.
When I got home and spun many of the tracks on the Thiels, yes some elements suffered in comparison (that wood block! Some other sounds). But on the other hand, the Thiels sound in their own way "more real." The Thiel’s soundstage is HUGE, and life-sized in height, so a live concert really sounds like a live concert. Elements in the mix, various instruments, are beautifully separated, rendered, and have nice life and punch. It’s a pretty big, full sound as well, not giving up too much to the Devores, but a much larger soundstage. When I listen to the Thiels compared to the Devores, probably the thing I miss most about The Devores is that upper frequency detail and texture. The Thiel 2.7s could use a tiny bit more life in that region. I can get some more of it with positioning and playing with acoustics, but the Devores sound more effortless in pulling that off.
Bass on the Thiels vs the Devores is 6 vs half a dozen. Sometimes I miss that added bloom, size and warmth of the bass that drive a song a bit better on the Devores. Other times I appreciate the superb control, pitch and punch of the bass on the Thiels. (Electronica, one of my favorite types of music, can just be astounding on the Thiels, the way they place such dense, palpable synth and bass lines in a huge soundfield in my room).
So, at this stage, I’m pretty comfortable that I really do love the Devore house sound. I’ve listened to a lot of speakers and the Devores stick out with an "it" factor that sucks me in. The 96s were top of my list vying against the Joseph Perspectives, but given how the smaller 93s convey so much of what I like about the 96s, they are now atop the list too. They would be an easier purchase, financially. Though I’m less sure about re-sale value of the 93 vs the super-hot 96s.
I guess the next up, whenever I can get the time, is to hear the Josephs again, and that should give me my decision.
Oh and...as Steve J used to say..."one more thing..."......
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To my surprise, I also listened to the Devore Gibbon X speakers today!
The dealer had them, newly in, set up and ready to play. You know how dealers love to upsell :-)
I told him the X’s are beyond what I’m looking to spend, but since they were set up we listened to them briefly. The Gibbon Xs are surprisingly nice looking speakers for their size (which is...quite large). I’m not a fan of black speakers generally, but the glossy black finish on these ones was quite classy. The speakers were set up in a narrower part of the room (even though the room itself is fairly large especially once you include the very high ceilings), so they were closer together than I’d like. But with that caveat....
First some jazz vocals, male and female (famous singers but I’m drawing a mental blank), some organ, nice drums etc.
They sounded really gorgeous with this track. As some have reported about the Gibbon X, it does, at least in the midrange, sound like a bit more sophisticated and more neutral version of the Orangutang’s sound.
The vocals were human sized, warm in timbre, rich, with nice open textures so had a "thereness" that was really involving. Same with the drum cymbals and snare, which were sort of "cleaner" sounding on the Gibbons. By that I mean a bit more "audiophile-like" in terms of the way the soundscape was really clean between the instrumental images. But yet still with a warm engaging sound. I was instantly falling in love with the sound I was hearing.
Then I put on Talk Talk’s Happiness Is Easy, which starts for quite a while with just a drum track before the stand up bass kicks in. The drums sounded clean, real and punchy, with obviously deeper, bigger bass than either the 96s or 93s. Vocals sounded nice, though maybe not quite as rich and big as on the wider, more squat speakers I’d been listening to.
Once the stand up bass came in, though, it was "bloomsville" in terms of the bass. It was huge, strong, room filling and if that is what one wants, and it is fun, the Gibbons had tons of spectacular bass impact. It’s just that it was really, really overwarm. It had more of a "subwoofers are on" bass sound vs the actual sense of the lowest vibrations of the stand up bass.
I’d read here and there that the Gibbon X can be challenging for dialing in the bass at it is quite generous, and now I can see why. How much of what I heard was sheer room node/room interaction, I can’t tell from my brief encounter.
That said, I can imagine that in the right space, set up with attention and presuming that bass can be tamed, this is one heck of a compelling speaker! You don’t get that combination of clarity, presence, realism AND beguiling warmth of tone in one package, very often.
And the fact that Devore manages to maintain this quality among various different speaker models, sometimes very different, tells me he has a good idea of what he is doing and going for in his speaker designs.
FWIW.....
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jsm71,
I'll consider your advice!
Btw, never believe an audiophile who says he is "done" until he's under the ground ;-)
fsonicsmith,
I sure appreciate it. At one point I reviewed speakers for a short while for an on-line audio publication, but that was long ago. My goal when I wrote about speakers was to describe the sound as accurately as I could so that a reader could get a sense if he/she would likely be interested or not - that is act as a virtual "pair of ears" to the extent possible for the reader.
But when I do posts like this it's more of a stream of consciousness. I'm typing so quickly, not nearly as concerned with a precise goal in my descriptions. But if they are interesting for you, I'm glad to hear that.
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kesheri,
Sorry, forgot to respond:
I haven't heard Avalons for many years now, but back when they were hot I never really loved their sound. They certainly disappeared and soundstaged well, excellent imaging, and competed with the Audio Physic speakers of the time in the "best disappearing speaker/imaging" category. But I always found the Avalon sound a bit to tight, dry and buttoned down.
Ref 3A have always sounded nice to me but, to my ears, don't quite get tonal color right, or at least as I like it. (And I think those who love 3A speakers would argue exactly the opposite).
I get why many people really love the 3A sound, though.
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Well I did a bit of testing today, investigating how the Devore 96s would fit in my room.
I have an adjustable height side table, and it turns out my old Thiel 02 speakers, when turned sideways, are the exact width of the Devore 96s. So I put them sideways on the side table and raised the height to the 35 1/2 inch height of the Devores. I moved them around, putting them in pace of my bigger Thiel 2.7s.
Ugh...not sure I could get the 96s to work in my room! The main issue is that the room does double duty - it has a big projection screen and nice L/C/R Hales speakers and surround system. The room was designed as a home theater fit into a living room. My getting back into 2 channel is something of an add-on, so 2 channel speakers have to share the room with everything else, and go in front of my L/C/R home theater speakers.
The stereo speakers are pulled way into the room, almost mid way, so that when you walk in to the room you are essentially walking in between the home theater speakers by the screen wall on your right, and the stereo speakers to your left. That's why the big Thiel 3.7s have to go - they are so deep they make that space between the HT speakers and stereo speakers a bit too narrow to easily navigate when entering the room.
The Devores are good this way being about 1/2 as deep as the bigger Thiels.
But...they are also of course much wider.
I was having a hard time finding a set up with the "fake Devores" that didn't block the HT speakers behind, or didn't impede a view of the projection screen. This is why narrower floor standers tend to be more suitable for the 2 channel speakers - they "disappear" from view more, don't block the HT speakers behind them, and allow for good viewing angles of the screen.
So. I dunno.
I was getting more intrigued in going for the Devore 93s - cheaper, still sound great, and less wide than the 96s. So I'll have to try similar tests with an object fitting the width of the 93s.
This all may go more in favor of the diminutive Joseph Audio Perspectives (my original plan) which really sit nicely in that room. Sonically such a tough call: The warmth, openness, fullness and texture of the Devore sound, vs the more pristine, even more tonally precise and ultra-refined JA sound (still with guts in the bass department).
If I ever find myself getting annoyed in trying to figure out which way to go, I have to remember: I'm lucky. These are first world problems to be sure!
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Small update:
I auditioned some Wilson Benesch speakers.
It was an interesting experience.
That’s a brand that has intrigued me - never heard them but have read some raves. Turns out a local dealer sells the brand so I dropped in and he had the smallish floor-standing Square Two, two-way speakers set up. They are about $7,000 CDN.
He told me quite a bit about the WB design techniques and philosophy. Also said he carries them because they are more about making music, and for people who are more in to music than obsessing about hi-fi.
Funny thing is almost every single dealer says the same thing about the gear they carry. ;-) . "That other stuff is for audiophiles obsessing about detail, slam etc. I’m more about The Music which is why I carry this gear."
But of course, if anyone were really just about The Music they wouldn’t be an audiophile, or run an audio store. That’s always been an old diss between audiophiles "You are an audiophile - I’m a Music Lover!" And then you see the Music Lover’s system obsessively tweaked out in a way that clearly shows their obsession with The Gear.
Anyway...that's no knock on the store owner as it's common among audiophiles (just funny when I hear it). The owner was an amiable, helpful gentleman and I appreciated his time.
He insisted I do not bring my music burned to a drive, as he didn’t think this is capable of producing satisfactory digital sound (though at home I have my CDs ripped to a cheap little usb drive, using a cheap Raspberry Pi as a server. I certainly don’t have any problem with getting stupendous sound, nothing of any lesser quality than any CD player I’ve owned).
The owner demagnatized my CDs (burned CDs as well). Wow...didn’t think anyone was still doing that! (I don’t believe it does a thing, as anyone who may have read my posts would infer, but hey if it makes the proprietor feel more comfortable that he’s providing an optimal demo, far be it from me to complain).
Placed in to a very expensive CD transport, to a high end DAC. The whole shebang. (We later switched amps/sources to another high end CD player).
Anyway....playing my test tracks, especially starting with Talk Talk’s Happiness Is Easy: the WB Square 2s immediately impressed me on these counts: Really boxless, low coloration, nicely controlled top to bottom, nice clarity, good "round" bass, good image focus. Detailed with good transient behaviour, but easy on the ear. So in that sense a good start.
However...one sort of "curse" for me in speaker auditions is that I can almost always tell immediately if the speaker is for me or not. It reminds me of my 4 years as a caricature artist at a local huge amusement park. We did caricatures of people in profile. Doing up to 100 caricatures a day meant getting awfully fast at recognizing the essence of someone’s profile. It got to the point that I could literally see someone’s profile for about 1 second - even a glance at someone passing by - and I could produce an accurate likeness.
Decades of obsessing about speakers - like no doubt many here - has left me with a similar level of recognition in terms of a speaker’s general tone and characteristics. I barely need to get through the first test track and I pretty much know the speaker to a great degree.
And so it was with the WB speaker which immediately registered as "dark toned" to my ears. Just a bit less airy and organic than I’d like. I can get into a darkish tone on some level, in which it can be comfortable to the ears and emphasize the lower harmonics. But such a speaker can never sound "real" or beautiful in the way real voices or instruments are, to my ears.
Anyway, as the audition went on, the speakers generally sounded very good sound for the money. But I became more aware of the limitations as I played more tracks - there was some blurring/confusion in some tracks (Everything But The Girl) that just don’t occur on my system or on many other speakers. I also found the overall presentation too small - acoustic guitars and other acoustic instruments sounding a bit too toy-sized. Not terribly surprising given this was a relatively small two-way speaker.
And the Devores I’ve been auditioning recently are a tough act to follow if you are a smaller speaker, given the huge presence and richness found in the Devore presentation.
Got home and, as I always do after a speaker audition, spun the same tracks on my home system (the Thiel 2.7 speakers currently being used)., and it was just another world of sound - bigger, more organic, more tonally realistic and beautiful, better imaging, even more insight into the recording space/reverb etc. Funny that, given I use a lowly streaming set up and cheap speaker cables, vs the digital source/cabling at the store that surely ran over 10 grand. But that’s a common experience I have, after store auditions).
As I’m told the WB speakers have a very consistent house sound, I’m pretty sure they are not for me. At least the ones I could afford - they get super expensive really fast. Worth a try though, as you never know.
Next (and I expect last on my list) would be to listen to a pair of the new Magica A3s.
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Thank you bjesien!
I love the Thiels and I'm not giving them up! I'm just a bit greedy, recognize that no speaker will ever do everything, so I like having options.
I have as high quality sources as I will ever have (especially a nice new Transrotor turntable).
I've listened to some great Verity speakers - and spent some good time with them (e.g. Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation). I think they are terrific speakers - wonderful size, great sound quality, smooth, open, coherent, boxless. But ultimately their tone doesn't quite do it for me. |
clarinetmonster2, No, I'm in Canada. Glad my ramblings were of any help to you!
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cellcbern, Thanks for the tip on the Bache speakers. Though I think my journey is at an end (excepting if I get a chance to hear the Magico A3 speakers).
I know what you mean about the Devore O speakers not totally disappearing - as I remarked on that as well. They certainly do disappear quite well on lot of program material, much more than I would have expected. But I’ve lived mostly with speakers that really disappear amazingly well, and that is something I value, so that’s always in the back of my mind.
The Thiel 3.7s that I have to sell disappear utterly and completely as sound sources, and sound big and lush closer to the Devores, but without any box signature. But, they are too big and have to go.
The Joseph Audio Perspective do a stellar disappearing act - they are known for it. So they have that element covered. One of the main differences is the fullness and image size. The Perspectives have an image size and weight that are a bit smaller than the Thiels, so I’d have to get used to that. The Devores actually tend the opposite way, being even a bit bigger and richer than the Thiels. And I love that about them.
Both the Joseph and the Devore speakers do tone/timbre beautifully in their own way. The Devores have an oppeness, fullness, sense of texture that is alluring. On the other hand, the Joseph speakers have an incredibly rare purity and lack of hash that is really addictive. The Devores sound more like the average speaker in that regard.
There's also the fact that the Devores seem more directional in the high frequencies, where the Josephs have very wide even dispersion even close up. So the Devores may be a bit closer to a head-in-a-vice listening situation especially if I used them as close as I'm likely to. I do tend to like a wide listening window (one of my beefs with electrostatics, Martin Logan etc, is the shifty quality of the sound with relatively small listener position movements).
Still a very tough choice for me. The Devore 0/93s would be the easiest as I could trade in my Thiels. But I’ve had a jones for the Perspectives so long it’s hard to give up that dream too.
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I heard those Spendors sound very impressive at a show. Though I thought they actually might border on the fatiguing (strange thing to say about any Spendor. And of course, show conditions...) |
Heads up, FWIW....
I'll be auditioning the Magico A3 speakers tomorrow. I'll post my impressions here.
I've been intrigued by Magico's reputation. I've only heard them briefly at a show or two, and then a track on one of their mid-sized pairs a year ago (V3's I think it was). My brief encounters left me more with respect than love. But the A3 is right in the price bracket I've been contemplating, and in theory could punch even above it's weight, so it seems prudent to give it a go before I commit to another speaker.
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Coo, shadorne. You've auditioned the A3s too at some point? Or maybe heard them at a show? |
Magico A3 Speaker:
Report on my listening session.
First, I have a feeling that many people won’t be particularly surprised by what I’m going to say about listening to the Magicos. And this will be long because...well...I write long. And I think there’s a lot of excitement around the Magicos, with very little user reports or reviews, so I thought I’d go in to some detail.
In a nutshell, I heard a lot of audiophile-grade qualities, but struggled to be involved in the music and sound.
To expand: The dealer was a terrific guy, showing out of his very nice, large home, the Magicos in his basement, which seemed large and well-suited to displaying such speakers - lots of room around the Magicos, good listening position well out and away from wall boundaries etc. The dealer says his room is generally really good in terms of a pretty flat response.
I threw on the first track I always play, the first cut of Everything But The Girl’s album Atomic Heart, which has nice easy-going shuffling beat, with stand up bass, drums, percussion, acoustic guitar, female vocals, and some nice old warm analog synths making appearances here and there. This is a cut that I just love and rarely fails to grab me.
But frankly it didn’t on the Magicos. The first impression was "very clear, clean, sparkly but not bright highs. Very open and boxless particularly from the upper midrange up. Effortlessly hearing in to the mix to focus on whatever details I chose. Detail was smooth, with a mostly grainless purity of tone. Though the Magicos did not match the even purer sounding grainless character I remember from the Joseph Audio speakers (which is really special).
And yet my simultaneous reaction was "is this it?" As in, yeah it sounded ok, but nothing immediately grabbed me as amazing, or showing me anything I didn't hear at home or on other systems. (Though that evolved somewhat).
My main problems with the sound that I heard with my initial cuts were:
1. A not particularly engaging tonal/timbral quality. Sounded more electronic than organic. More on the "silvery/electronic" end than the warm toned organic sound I tend to prefer, and get at home.
2. Dynamics and palpability seemed a bit too restrained and reticent. The sound just sort of "sat there" behind the speakers, performing audiophile duties of imaging and transparency, but not really feeling like it was compelling me to get in to the music. For instance, there is an electric bass part that comes in mid way through a Talk Talk song that sits somewhat back in the mix, and can get kind of lost on some systems. On my Thiel 2.7s that bass shows up as tight and palpable. The Devore 0/96 and 0/93 speakers took that even higher, where that bass, without becoming bloated, just seemed to drive the music and get my foot tapping. On the Magicos...it just was sort of "there" in the mix for me to find if I listened to it, but it wasn’t palpably driving the beat or music. Hence, a more cerebral listening experience vs engaging.
3. The bass on these first cuts, Everything But the Girl, Talk Talk etc using stand up bass, sounded somewhat bloated. On my Thiels and in my room, I’m used to really well controlled, tonal bass. When the stand up bass plays all frequencies down to the bottom seem to be focused and coming from the bass, and even the very bottom frequencies have a tight, resonating quality that seems to come from the instrument. Whereas on many systems, including the Magicos today, the lower end of the bass turns into a sort of bass "bloom" that dissipates away from the instrument and the effect is that the lower bass frequencies always seemed to be "a speaker playing a bass frequency" rather than the bass being produced by the distinct stand up bass in the track.
I did my best through the audition to check out different seating positions, closer and further, making sure I wasn’t sitting in a room node etc. The speakers were set up really heavily toed-in and leaning forward towards them made the sound more timbrally convincing - warmed it up from "dark with silvery high-lights" to more "everything lightened taking closer to an amber tone" and actually giving acoustic guitars, vocals, drums etc more palpability and believable timbre.
However, leaning closer to the speakers would often seem to trade one coloration for another - it could tighten up some bass bloom, but could also seem to sort of make some odd things happen in the midrange, voices starting to spread out or take on a speakerly quality. (That sounds bad, in fact it wasn’t as bad as it sounds...I’m being picky).
So during the audition of these speakers, sometimes the lower frequencies seemed well controlled and neutral, but other times bloated and speakerly. It’s really tough to know what to lay at the feet of the speaker, vs the speaker/room interaction. But in either case, my take away would be that, at the very least, these speakers are ready possibly be somewhat finicky and problematic to set up to get the controlled bass that they *may* be capable of.
When I played some recordings to check out naturalness on vocals Johnny Cash’s song The Beast In Me - just his voice naturally mic’d and lightly plucking guitar - can sound spooky-real on good systems.
Through the Magicos, his voice was super clear and, if I leaned forward, closer to timbrally convincing. But it was also more "hi-fi" to use the pejorative - clear, but a bit more crispy and artificial than on some other systems. So..."wow that’s clear!" But not "wow, that’s a real person singing in front of me!"
Also, that track is great for checking the coherency and behaviour of a speaker (or room interaction) in the lower registers of the male voice. He goes down for some notes that will reveal an overly chesty, boxy quality on many systems. On these Magicos it did indeed become more boxy and artificial when he hit those notes - not really obvious - but you can hear the lower notes suddenly spread out in the soundstage like they are coming from resonating speakers just on those notes, and then snap back in to the image of his voice when he goes back higher. (This can also be a speaker/room interaction thing too - but I usually take different positions to listen, to try to account for room nodes).
Another vocal track that shows up similar boxy or room interaction problems is Julie London’s Cry Me A River - a very clear, intimately mic’d vocal with quiet bass and guitar. This will sound impressively clear on almost any speaker. But when she goes down for the lower notes, there is a strange boxy, resonant, blooming quality that can occur on many systems (it even occurred on the Joseph speakers, as well as the Devores). It did show up on the Magicos. Not as bad as others, pretty good actually, but not as clean as I’ve heard it.
On my Thiels, especially the 3.7s, such tracks as the Johnny Cash and Julie London sound essentially perfect - zero discontinuity in terms of coherence, zero sense of artificial emphasis to any of the notes, just...someone singing in front of me.
So let me get to when the Magicos started to impress me!
Their clarity, openness, detail and purity of tone really paid dividends with excellent recordings, and in particular, some classical and soundtracks I played. I’m a Bernard Herrmann fan and there is a great recording of his Jason And The Argonauts score that features closely mic’d, brooding, growling woodwinds, low horns, harps etc.
The Magicos presented these beautifully. I’ve never been so aware of the audibility of the breathing of the muscians, but that’s just a way of pointing out their way with detail. Instrumental tones, a low tuba or trombone playing in tandem with a bassoon, placed essentially "on top of each other" in the mix, were beautifully delineated both timbrally and spatially. Same with clarinets, harps, flutes - there was a super fine delicacy of detail that really dug out the individual character of each instrument in a closer to true-life manner than even on the Thiels.
My Thiel 2.7s (unlike my bigger 3.7s) can have a bit of trouble floating instruments that are panned right to the speaker locations. The Magicos were routinely "disappearing" and producing really delicate, 3-dimensional instruments all around the speakers, no matter where they were placed in the mix. Guttural oboes and bassoons sounded....Guttural - vibrating reeds, a column of air that seemed to reach out and vibrate the listener a bit more. So there was a lot of ear candy going on.
Dynamics, micro and macro seemed to be more life-like on such tracks. Including a piece I often play, the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet, accompanied by a big drum (bongo-like, but much bigger and weightier).
The Magicos really shined, untangling the 4 guitars so each was easily heard, their individual tones, and I felt I could hear some of the nuances of playing that I wasn’t aware of from my Thiels or other speakers. When the guitars strummed together with vigour - the Magicos translated that life-like change in timbre and emphasis beautifully.
Throwing on Earth Wind And Fire live, there was a nice life-like, precision to the sound delineating the voices, trumpets, shining digital keyboards, bass, drum cymbals etc. Bass was heavier and thicker than I get at home, but gave a "big" live feel. The clarity and detail made me feel like I was hearing more distinct character to the drum parts - when the player hit the snare, or switched to rim shots, etc - it just seemed a bit more "exact" sounding.
On the other hand, the sax solo came off as more electronic, silvery and artificial vs the warm, bronze-glow that says "sax" to me, that I hear on my favorite systems (like my home system). Keyboards also - more silvery and whitened in tone, less beautiful than I’ve heard.
Vocals on this live EWF disc can sound incredible - a sort of magical mix between "mic’d at a concert" size, but with a delicacy of timbre that feels more like you are sitting on the front of the stage hearing their real voices. On the Magicos the vocals were super clear, but also a bit more in to the artificial-mic’d territory vs the rounder, richer sound I get at home.
To bring in some comparisons: The Devores O speakers are obviously entirely different beasts in terms of design and sound. Bigger and richer - I was often feeling with the Magicos a sort of thin quality. An acoustic guitar would image life-sized, but with a bit more tinkly, silvery, thin "upper strings emphasized" quality, missing the body of the instrument. On the Devores the impression is richness, of getting more of the full instrument, strings themselves rounder and bigger in tone, attached to a resonating body that you can sort of "feel" more.
While the top end of the Magicos was really accomplished - again, finely detailed, with a realistic fast transient quality, while not being overly bright - I think I found the high end of the Devores actually a bit more appealing. Drums, bongos, acoustic guitars, etc all sounded more "there," the top end being open and airy, yet not thin - cymbals, picked strings having roundness and body. Drum kits, e.g. the opening of Talk Talk’s Happiness Is Easy - just immediately strike as sounding like drums (I grew up with drums in the house - and actually, with most instruments in the house, as my Dad was a jazz musician and music teacher, and all of us played various instruments). Whereas the drum sound on the Magicos was curiously uninvolving sometimes, including on that Talk Talk cut. Clear but...it would never fool me I was hearing drums.
Basically everything on the Devores is invigorating rythmically, and robust tonally. On the Magicos, I struggled to get truly involved in the music, despite some really impressive hi-fi characteristics.
When I got home, as usual, I went through many of the same tracks on my Thiel 2.7/CJ amp combo and it was just . "aaah..."
Though the Magicos weren’t bright per se, I was after a while getting fatigued listening - something about the thinness and hi-fi sound just seemed to wear on me after a while. I never, ever experience that at home. A number of the tracks simply sounded "better" to my ears at home - more palpable, more organic, better imaging and tonal density, more palpability, more dynamic - every piece just moved air, and moved the pace. I’d say what I have at home trades that last bit of timbral precision in terms of transparency and detail (that going to the Magicos, which for any individual track will really separate everything for you) for an over all gestalt that often feels more timbrally correct and convincing to my ears.
Then there is the aesthetics. As I mentioned, I’m REALLY sensitive to how a speaker looks, particularly when I’m evaluating a possible purchase. The Magico A3s certainly don’t look bad at all, and close up look and feel fairly polished and high end. But...they don’t make much of an aesthetic appeal or impact. They could easily be mistaken if not looking closely for just another pair of black monoliths you might get at one of the Big Box stores. (Again...that’s not the case especially when you get up close to examine).
Whereas I find my Thiel 2.7s in ebony, with grill covers on, to be gorgeous and actually enhance the feel of the room. When music is playing I can look at them and they just seem to be really nice pieces of furniture and music just seems to be magically happening in the room all around them.
But with the Magicos, being much more utilitarian, they just say "Technology!" I can’t ignore all the visible drivers "making" the sound.
I think I just can’t do that to my room or listening experience; I can’t bring in a speaker that I don’t find beautiful, that doesn’t enhance the room rather than add another black box. And I don’t think I can do a speaker that does not come with grills.
These are why, it seems to me, if I’ll be purchasing an additional pair of new speakers, it still seems down to the Devores or Joseph Audio speakers. Both those brands were able to spell-bind me in terms of the listening experience, but also engage my eyes as beautifully designed and finished little "pieces of audio art."
I have to say though, that while this single encounter with the Magico A3s suggest that they are not the right match for me, the general quality of the sound left me with the impression of HUGE POTENTIAL. If those speakers can be set up to tame the bass and smooth out the response, and if they could be dialed in via positioning, acoustics, and perhaps mated with some nice tube amps (which appeal to me) then it’s possible they could be absolutely crazy good. At their price point they really were world-beaters in terms of some of what I heard. (I have a similar feeling about the Paradigm Persona speakers I auditioned - super clarity and low noise floor, that although it left me ultimately fatigued, made me wonder how great they might be with the steps to dial them in to my liking).
So there you go. Probably more than anyone wanted. But when I come home with my head filled with thoughts....sometimes I have to off-load them.
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Just to add a comment to the little "review" I just posted above for the Magico A3:
A salesman's attitude makes so much difference in terms of gaining a customer in me. This salesman made the experience relaxed, no pressure, no monologues selling the gear, realized he was dealing with someone who knew a thing or two, and mostly just let me listen.
That's a dealer I will go back to. Vs some other dealers where I actually shrink from the idea of simply having to interact with them again. I'm thinking of doing a Dealers Do and Don't post, from the perspective of a customer. :-)
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trelja,
Wise words. But I wouldn't say this is an entirely rational adventure on my part. Part scratching an itch, part adventure, part torture, part fun.
jackd,
I mentioned Verity earlier on this page. Haven't heard anything new for a while now, except briefly at a show I think a couple years ago. But as I said, several years ago I was quite familiar with some of the Verity speakers. |
I was just out for a walk (live near the downtown of my city) and passed by some street musicians playing across the road. I stopped to listen and enjoy the music but, good audiophile that I am, I also closed my eyes and took notice of the sound made by live acoustic instruments - in this case two tenor sax and one drum kit. (I've always been kind of obsessed with live vs reproduced sound).
The usual things stuck out: clarity with ease, the distinctness of the timbre and tone of whatever I chose to focus on - drum snare, cymbal, kick drum, or which sax was playing. And always, the SIZE an palpability of the sound. A single tenor sax sounds utterly HUGE in real life. It may as well have had it's own sound amplification system - not at all needed in this case for these three acoustic instruments to "light up" a full block with sound.
Then there is the palpability. The sound of the sax reached all the way across four lanes giving me the sense of feeling the vibrating air it was causing. Really remarkable.
These are the types of characteristics I tend to seek in high end systems (and so rarely found). Most high end audio reproduction seems so reductive in compared to the real thing.
But it's so hard - impossible it seems - to find a system that truly does it all (and certainly, that does it all for all listeners).
So for instance, in my own decisions, the Devore 0 speakers are giving some of that life-like size and weight and warmth to acoustic instruments and voices.
On the other hand, I think the Joseph speakers excelled at digging out those unique timbral differences that I hear in real life.
The Thiel speakers I have seem almost an in between - not as big, warm and lush as the Devores, but palpable has heck. Beautifully nuanced in finding instrumental timbre...but not to the degree found in the JA speakers.
So on one day it feels like I have the best of both worlds in the Thiel. And I utterly glory in the sound. (As I should).
On another day, it can feel like I have something that compromises on both those aspects of sound. I notice what other speakers would do "better."
Such is the Curse Of The Audiophile! |
ohlala,
Interesting observations. Thanks.
As I mentioned, I did seem to find a bit of weird behaviour with the A3s as I tested different seating positions - nearer to them seemed to cause some weird spreading of some sounds. But I can only infer so much from a single encounter.
Dynamically I remember one of the telling tracks: Herbie Hancock's Chameleon. Every speaker sounds great when that synth starts - just a big fat analog synth in just the frequency that doesn't seem to cause too much bloat in even bad speaker designs - and then the drums kick in. It's always impressive. The Magicos did a particularly good job in this respect: I always listen to high hats, and on this track especially. John Atkinson has put it well, that cymbals (especially I think high hats) on many systems can sound like more like "modulated bursts of white noise" rather than the real thing, real metal/wood causing the sound. And that is so often true in my experience.
So I listen to the quality of the high hat at the beginning of Chameleon with that in mind, and the Magico's transparency did a very good job of distinguishing the tone of metal, vs just "white noise."
However, as more instruments in the mid and upper mids came in - the various guitar picking, the clavinets parts, they were really clear, but dynamically limpid. They just sort of "sat there" in the speaker drivers not really adding to driving the song. I almost started to wonder if I was misperceiving this aspect of the Magico's shortcoming.
Played on my system once back home, there it was: when each part came they felt more substantial, more moving air and driving the song. (And it's really hard for instruments in that range to get that palpability/air moving sensation).
It's not a huge difference, but one of those subtle but subjectively important differences I noticed.
Again...though ultimately I wasn't grabbed by the A3s, they did imply some strong potential. |
kacomess,
Good question!
The only reason is that my past (admittedly very limited) encounters with Vandersteen speakers left me unmoved. I remember auditioning one of their next-down-from-flagship speakers (or maybe it was their flagship) and another model or two - before that.
The impression they left we was: Nice boxless, airy, excellent soundstaging, decent palpability, but the overriding impression was of a somewhat "boring" tonality. I pretty much immediately felt "these are not for me." I have in my mind the picture of "greyish" tones when I think of the Vandersteens.
Is that fair to keep that impression for a long time? Maybe not. I would enjoy hearing the Trios or Quatros if the opportunity presented itself. But I'm not seeking it out due to past experience with Vandersteens leaving me cold.
Again...very subjective on my part and no pronouncement on the worth of those speakers as obviously they have really thrilled many owners.
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Thanks charles1dad!
rlb61,
Yes there certainly does tend to be a house sound within an speaker brand. Both my Thiels have an amazingly similar "voice" and I've found most brands are pretty consistent too.
About the Magicos: It's interesting that some will describe the Magicos as "bright, clinical, cold" and others "smooth, musical, almost reticent."
And I can see how both impressions can take hold. As I said, I found the A3s to not strike me immediately as "bright" but more detailed and fairly pure of tone. It was only after listening for a while that a certain thinnness or some similar quality made me start to feel fatigued. Yet I don't think I would even then have called it brightness or "harshness."
But, yes, there was some unforgiving quality in the sound.
I find it intriguing though that "unforgiving" is so often associated with "accuracy" or relaying fine differences among recordings. Yet I've heard many systems that seem to easily portray the chameleon nature of different recordings, defects and all, but which weren't simultaneously fatiguing to listen to. (My Thiels do this for me, for instance).
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TAWW,
Thanks for dropping in.
Like the website! I've been there before and enjoyed your show report.
I understand the reticence on Thiel speakers. They have sounded bright or dry to a lot of people.
What I found early on was that Thiels can be magic with tubey amps like my CJ gear. They maintain that density of imaging, liveliness and realism, but in a relaxed manner. Jim Thiel's final flagship drivers and design I think finally banished any inherent brightness and don't even "need" tube amps to tame them. But with my CJs I can listen all day, and far from clinical, the main characteristic I hear when I come home from auditioning most other speakers is how utterly rich and organic the sound is in my set up. A fellow audio writer who previously said Thiels would make him run screaming from a room (brightness) agrees. Best sound I've ever had.
But...hey...you know. The itch!
BTW, I've also found the same with my MBL omni-monitors. They are in theory brutal to drive which is why MBL is usually paired with mega-watt SS amps. But with my CJ amps and even a small Eico 14W integrated they are magical!
BTW, I remember listening a number of times to Silverline speakers back when the Sonata was making a splash. I still remember how they sound (I think). I wonder if their house sound has been maintained or not over all these years. (To me Silverline sounded somthing like if you crossed Totem speakers with Meadowlark Audio speakers...but Meadowlark is going back old school as a reference...)
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I figure I’ve reserved this thread as much for the occasional musing on my speaker hunt as for the reports themselves.
And to that end:
Last night I was listening to one of my favourite soundtracks: Bernard Herrmann’s Jason And The Argonauts. (Not to mention gleefully receiving some mint, unopened vinyl issues of some of his other recorded work from the 70’s. Yippee!)
This was through the Thiel 2.7s, which are currently spread out quite wide for a large, but focused soundstage.
It came to the track for the Hydra, which used deep swelling woodwinds and brass instruments. It was just incredible the sensation of looking aurally in to a space "inhabited" by palpable, air moving, floor moving, undulating big instruments. It really created in my mind the sensation of being in the presence of a gigantic slithering beast. So much fun!
And these are instances that remind me why I always end up going back to floor standing speakers over stand mounted. That sense of scale and moving air.
I have several stand mounted speakers that I love: old Thiel 02s, Waveform Mach MC (egg shaped), Spendor 3/5s, and MBL 121 radialstrahler speakers. All of them can make me just melt in to their presentation. (The MBL omnis still drop my jaw with the realism of their detail, tone and imaging). But after a while I hanker for the bigger sound (and I’ve tended to be allergic to subwoofers - though now I do own subwoofers, but first I’ll be integrating them with the Thiels, and hopefully whatever other speaker I buy. Which has made me wonder if anyone has actually used Devore O speakers with a subwoofer. I could see advantages, but on the other hand I could also see crossing over to a sub might actually diminish the particular bass character of the Devores that are part of their appeal).
On another note: I’m in equipment selling off mode (a few too many gadgets lying around unused) and any good audiophile knows that the minute he sells a gadget, he will immediately somehow regret it as some need for it suddenly arises. *Smacks head* why did I sell that? I need it now!
I’ve had an RDP-1 digital preamp eq that I bought a long time ago but which I never really put in to use. I just put it up for sale and literally last night I heard a little "bump" in the response of my Thiels (or room interaction) stick out, which had me thinking "hmm, it might be nice to equalize that out." Doh!
On the other hand, and this isn’t entirely rational, I have this weird thing that, since I now use both turntable and digital sources, I don’t want my system "unevenly tweaked." By that I mean if I tweaked it via a digital eq only for my digital sources, and I got used to that version, then it could annoy me a bit when I switch to analog source and it is not similarly "fixed." So, logical or not, in a way it seems better to me to leave it consistent across sources, warts and all. (And there are very few warts).
I’m also thinking of moving to a Roon platform for streaming my digital library, and I believe that offers eq function so maybe that will be a bit of a security blanket in terms of selling my RDP-1.
Anyway...more ramblings...
It seems to me my next step, when I have a chance, will be to hear the JA Perspectives again, which I haven’t heard for about a year now, to help come to my decision between those and the Devore speakers.
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markalarsen,
Ha, glad I could help! |
jafant,
I use one of my favorite albums of all time, EBTG's Atomic Heart. It doesn't matter that I've used it a million times to demo systems, I still put it on to listen all the time.
It's a combination of elements in the recordings - warm acoustic instruments, acoustic guitars, stand up bass, analog synths, wood blocks, bongos. And a variable quality in the recording of voices - sometimes fairly natural, but a number of tracks have an artificial edge due to reverb/recording and even a teeny bit of apparent distortion here or there. So it really tells me a lot both about how a system handles good and not so good elements in a recording. Yucky systems can give the first few tracks a bit too much icy edge to the vocals and sibilance. I prefer a system that shows me the characteristics on the recording, but doesn't kill me with it.
If the first track, Rollercoaster, doesn't sound utterly warm and inviting something is wrong and I'm not going to get along well with a speaker. (It did so on the JA Perspectives, Devores, Harbeths and some others, much less so on Magico and some others).
I also love the track I Don't Understand Anything. Great for soundstaging, acoustic guitar, voice, drum and vocals sound, and checking out how well a system conveys the emotion of the piece. If a system doesn't produce the swelling, emotional moments in the song, that's not a good sign. (Joseph speakers did really well with that).
Also the track Missing. Tells me tons about the bass quality, separation of elements, and sense of rhythmic drive from a system. It's a song that has a mid-level tempo that on some systems has real drive, but others can leave it just sort of plodding and dead. (The Magicos left it in the plodding side, my Thiels make it a toe-tapper).
I usually play a ton of different music from my thumb drive or burned CDs. Among them:
Johnny Cash's "American" albums. Gordon Lightfoot . (if a system doesn't produce acoustic guitars with that familiar golden sparkle and a human warmth in Gord's voice, that's a very bad sign).
Chameleon - Herbie Hancock St Louis Blues - Dave Brubeck Quartet live in NYC. Great for instrumental tone, staging, and especially whether a system portrays a realistic drum sound (great solo moments with amazing realism on that album).
So What - Miles Davis (Hey...it's a standard).
Edgar Meyer Quintet For Strings Mvt 1 +2 - great for string tone and dynamics.
Jaws - Intrada recording. I grew up with that soundtrack and if a system doesn't thrill me both sonically, musically and nostalgically on the opening piece, and the Montage track, it's not coming to my house. (Same with the Star Trek Motion Picture album - not an incredible recording, but has to thrill me).
Bullit soundtrack - bursting with verve, a ton of different instrumental timbres coming at you a mile a minute. Tells me tons about the chameleon and instrumental timbre aspects of a speaker.
Jason And The Argonauts - B. Herrmann. Absolutely killer for the sound of woodwinds and brass.
Los Angeles Guitar Quartet - York: African Suite - great for very realistic guitars playing in front of you energetically.
Commodores - various - Brick House etc.
Talk Talk - The Colour Of Spring album - one of the great recorded albums.
Earth Wind And Fire - Greatest Hits Live - 1996. An INCREDIBLE live album in terms of both performances and sound quality. This can sound simply massive, with every single element - and there are tons - beautifully discernible. Deep, tight, killer bass - both electric and synth. Vocals that are both "arena sized" yet somehow organic and natural. A great system can really make you feel like you're at a real concert with the best sound system ever.
And others....
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Nice to see that EBTG is gettin' some luv here. They are certainly a talented duo, and as musicians open to experiment. If you like electronica, they had some fantastic electronica albums in the 90's that were very well regarded and influential, and sound today as fresh as when they came out (their sense of melody and musicianship come through): The Walking Wounded and Temperamental. Later there was an excellent electronica re-mix album of their songs called Adapt Or Die. I particularly like the first two tracks, Mirrorball and Before Today: https://www.allmusic.com/album/adapt-or-die-ten-years-of-remixes-mw0000244711Mirrorball sounds amazing on a good system - dense full analog sounding synths, with really spacious accents like the piano in the background which, if your speakers soundstage well, can sound like they have expanded your walls waaaay out into a new reverby recording space. |
Thanks for the reminder about Yello, ronkent. Yello has been mentioned by reviewers and audiophiles for as long as I can remember, but I never bothered listening. I’ll see if it’s available on Tidal.
astewart8944,
If you haven’t done so, on the Dave Brubeck live at Carnegie Hall, check out the song Castilian Drums!
Joe Morello does an extended drum solo, employing his hands lightly on the drums to ever more frenetic playing with sticks. It’s panned fairly hard left, but still with some spatial characteristics. But the intimacy of the drum miking make for a pretty astonishingly realistic rainbow of drum sounds bursting through your speakers. It's like the drum skins, rims and cymbals are right inside your speakers, behind the drivers.
Thiels are great for that kind of thing.
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I went on a financially ruinous vinyl splurge over the last couple days - much of it centred around brazillian 70's gems of disco, funk, funk/jazz etc. Also picked up another gem of electronic music that was released not long ago:
Buchla Concerts 1975
Some really rare live performances by early female synth-music pioneer Suzanne Ciani. You can just hear the joy of experimentation going on with all the ways you can tune analog while playing.
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Thanks Ping.
I briefly listened to the Devore X, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. They are too large and too expensive for my needs. Sounded wonderful from the mids up, though a bit overblown in the lower bass. I'm sure they can be mostly tamed in the right room. |
Sounds like you guys are looking for even more "life and snap" in your speakers? |
Oh man those Horning speakers look nice! I like the design, the wood finish, and I've always enjoyed that lowther-thing when I've heard it (though with the usual lowther caveats).
Would love to hear a pair. But the ones mentioned in this thread are too rich for my blood, and the speakers look to be too deep for my purposes (I need a shallower speaker to fit in my room). |
Interesting pingvin, I may have noticed that a bit too. The sound of the 93 was amazingly similar to the 96. I wish I liked the aesthetics of the 93 as much as the 96s.
Still moving back and forth between a desire for the Devores or the Joseph speakers. I really need to hear the Josephs again, which will probably happen at the end of the month when I get back from vacation.
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jriggy,
Yes I seem to remember the JA speakers liked to be goosed a little.
Then again, that is true to a certain extent with my current Thiels. They manage good low level resolution when at low volume, but to get feeling the music I turn them up. I'd think the Devore speakers with the richer bass presentation would do better for low level listening. But I've actually been enjoying listening louder than I have before. (I have struggled with tinnitus and occasional hyperacusis for many years, but I seem to be able to cope with louder playback these days which is fun).
BTW, I just read the July issue of Stereophile in which Herb Reichert did a follow-up review of the JA Pulsar speakers. He was pretty much amazed by the same things I was and many others: amazing detail with no hash, so it ends up being "musically involving" detail. I've rarely luxuriated in the pure tone of instruments and voices as easily as through the JA speakers.
In the end (spoiler alert!) Herb says he slightly prefers his Harbeth M30's for their fuller sound and added texture. I get that. Though he made a point of saying in a recent show review that, upon hearing the floor standing Perspectives, they sounded bigger and richer than the Pulsars. It has me wondering if that would push him toward the Perspectives over the Harbeths. (Probably not as I think over all the Harbeth sound is more for him). |
@kevinkwann Of course I’ve given consideration to the variables involved in auditioning speakers. That is why I mentioned that caveat right at the start in my OP. When you say I gave no consideration in my Magico post to the fact it was a single audition with associated equipment variables to consider, I can only imagine you managed to miss this paragraph explicitly stating such considerations: PROF WROTE: I have to say though, that while this single encounter with the Magico A3s suggest that they are not the right match for me, the general quality of the sound left me with the impression of HUGE POTENTIAL. If those speakers can be set up to tame the bass and smooth out the response, and if they could be dialed in via positioning, acoustics, and perhaps mated with some nice tube amps (which appeal to me) then it’s possible they could be absolutely crazy good. At their price point they really were world-beaters in terms of some of what I heard. (I have a similar feeling about the Paradigm Persona speakers I auditioned - super clarity and low noise floor, that although it left me ultimately fatigued, made me wonder how great they might be with the steps to dial them in to my liking).
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