Well, I've been here before. Once again, I'm thinking of venturing into the Analog world, but before doing so, I wanted to pose a few questions to fellow agoners to make sure my head (ears?) are in the right place.
Some Background: My current setup consists of a Modwright Transporter, Musical Fidelity KW 500 (hybrid tube pre/SS Amp), and Focal/JM 1027be speakers. My entire current collection is digital and I have NEVER owned Vinyl before NOR have I ever heard a high-end Analog setup.
My Tastes/musical likes: I am all about soundstage and imaging. Vocal accuracy is hugely important and instrument placing (hence, imaging) are part of what I look for when listening. Genre wise, mostly rock, folk, acoustic and blues. Some jazz as well. I generally try to stick to labels that produce good-sounding material...not over-compressed garbage.
On with the questions:
1. One of the biggest things that has kept me from trying Vinyl thus far is the concern of excessive hiss and crackle/pop that vinyl is known for. Is it safe to assume that purchasing new Vinyl and played on a higher quality setup will reduce (eliminate?) the pops and crackle sounds? I have no problem purchasing exclusively new vinyl, knowing full well that the process of shopping used is what draws so many to this market...
2. If I purchase new vinyl, only play it on a decent player, and store it properly, will I still have to clean it? How expensive is a cleaning machine? Are there (reasonable), less expensive alternatives to a cleaning machine?
3. Based on my integrated (tube-pre,SS amp) and speakers, are these a good match for Vinyl? Does anyone know if the KW 500 Phono input is adequate for a good turntable? My digital system has a tendency to be on the bright side for a lot of material, but not everything. Strangly, even at 31 years old, I can still hear up to around 19Khz so I'm a bit picky about the highs...
4. How complicated is the setup of the TT? Being that I've never worked wtih it before, I'm somewhat intimidated by the "setup" requirements of the equipment. What are the core requirements/knowledge to properly setup a TT.
5. And finally, the most subjective question of all. If I had a budget of about $1,000-$1,500 for a TT, Tonearm and Cartridge, what would be a good starting place? I'd obviously be looking for used here from Agon.
I know this was a long post so thanks for hanging in and reading it all :-). Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Get a used Denon 47F/Denon 160. This will put your 'toe in the water' before a massive purchased would be warranted. New Vinyl is expensive, so also plan on going used. Don't invest in cleaning equipment yet, especially if it is new you are initially using.
fatgh0st, is there anyone close to you that can help you? What would you do if you had a turntable sitting in front of you right now? If you are going to risk your money on something you know very little about, please find help beyond just posting in forums. Otherwise, you'll just swell the ranks of those who don't get it and never will. And, you'll have less money in your pocket. ;-)
I can't believe some of these responses. If this was a wine appreciation site you would basically have people telling you to stick with safe easy wine made by the big brands - don't try that Grand cru burgundy sir you may have a bad bottle lets play it safe and have this grape juice from XYZ brand.
yes vinyl may take a little bit of effort but anything worth having takes effort. you love music vinyl will bring you closer to music it is not difficult to get into just take the plunge.
One other positive as a music listener especially when one wants to sit down and really listen, vinyl by its design forces you (though without much complaint by the listener) to sit and listen to a whole side of an album. This will help you really get into listening to the artist's music. CD's and downloads can be too easy to skip to another track or even to another artist's music. Vinyl and even that other analogue medium the analogue cassette teaches you to be more disciplined in listening by design and I enjoy that when I want to actually listen.
CD's can if you hold off skipping tracks do that too but it's not the same.
. Don't do it dude! Stay with digital, you will listen to a lot more music that way. Digital will continue to get better, analog now is as good as it's ever gonna get.
You never own a turntable and LP's, they own you. .
if you lived near me you could borrow mine for a couple of weeks and a dozen good records and hear what your system would do with a turntable. i wish there was anyone out here in the ozarks that was into music and audio gear beyond a stringed washtub and a fiddle. ha i think i hear banjo music.....
Before you or any one goes for it, treat yourself to a day trip and fine some audio store or audiophile friend somewhere within two hour drive and listen to a good analog set up. If it really impresses you great. You may want to buy new and not have hidden hassles of used. And the dealer will set the table up for you if need be. If you don't like it so much spend the money on another new toy like the ipad, or just more music.
I say GO FOR IT! Everyone seems to think you are deciding whether to impregnate yourself. "should I have a boy or a girl?" It's audio! Remember? Audio is a FUN hobby... The dude is talking about $1000- $1500. I believe you will get your pleasure's worth with a table/arm cart combo. If it's not for you, sell it and save my email- I'd like to get first dibs on the LPs. Of course, it's a slippery slope which will very likely lead to upgrades. Sort of like deciding on a boy, then wanting twin girls. Go for it. You'll like it.
If you are that adverse to a little surface noise I would not recommend this medium. While the majority of new vinyl is fine, you inevitably will come across a poor pressing. It's part of the deal. I've also found that shopping for used vinyl is hit and miss - especially over places like ebay.
That being said, I love analog playback and always choose vinyl if I have a choice. I've grown to enjoy the rituals (cleaning, flipping) and greatly prefer the sound over digital.
I should also warn you to be careful. I know a lot of people (myself included) who have fallen hard after tipping their toes back into vinyl. It can be a money pit (for both equipment and records)if you let it become one.
01-23-11: Schipo 100% free of all noise?I doubt this very much and I'm a vinyl buff. Schipo (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Assuming you are addressing my comment:
I have my vinyl playback pretty much 100% free of all noise. It's possible to do but requires a lot of work.
Note the wording "pretty much."
Yes, in an hour of listening I might experience a total of one second of combined noise (if all added up). You are welcome to visit, or perhaps I'll ping a couple of members who have already visited.
Shopping for, storing, care taking and playing vinyl is not a casual, so what sort of thing if you consider yourself a fan of quality audio playback. It requires developing a desire to make the effort learn some skills in setup and handling and the ritual of playing vinyl.
If you are one who has grown up with only the experience of plopping in a shiny disc into a player or even newer turn on an MP3 player etc. to listen to stored music, well unless you are willing to make the effort, vinyl may not be for you. BUT! if you care to get into it, learn the ritual and take the time and effort vinyl playback can be a rewarding experience and on a decent system with proper setup and care give you fantastic audio quality.
One does not have to take out a second mortgage to buy into quality vinyl payback. Today there are good choices of new and used turntables that can get you maybe 8.5-9/10ths the sound of the best vinyl setups and can do so for easily $1000-$2000. This would include:
A new or quality used even vintage turtable. A good quality cartridge A good quality phono preamp A daily cleaning section from a brush to sylus cleaner A good setup to get you into either vacuuming, steaming, or quality non-vacuuming cleaning setup.
I myself since returning back to vinyl in 2003 have a gone through entry level new table, to a mid range new table to building a couple of DIY tables and to now a fine working vintage turntable, which is a then TOL JVC QL-Y5F which IMO can go toe to toe with most any <$1500 table sold new today. I have a modest but respected Denon DL-110 cartridge on it and it works great. I'm running a decent Cambridge Audio 640P phono preamp and have invested now after trying things from DIY vacuuming to steam cleaning etc. I have a Spin Clean system and for $80 is a steal IMO.
My phono setup is not the best nor even close to being expensive but since I take on the ritual of vinyl payback highly and do the best I can to care and maintain my albums and phono setup I get great audio performnace.
99% of my vinyl bought after 2003 (I had about 50 LP's in storage bough brand new in early to mid 80's) is used and mostly from thrift shops. I have bought over 600 used LP's since 2003. You can often land very good condition vinyl from used shops. But it will be hit and miss. That said not all new vinyl is perfect either. Many vinyl buyers flame on at how bad some new pressings can be.
So pros:
It can be fun. You can do a lot of swapping out, experimenting and upgrading as time passes. You have lots of low priced used vinyl out there. You can get nice quality new vinyl too. You have beautiful album covers and inner sleeves. You can if you take the time to setup get a fine sounding setup that will match or even better most anything in the digital world.
Finaly NO! if you want absolute quiet, no noticeable background noise, you will not get it quite as good with vinyl. Yes, good and well cared for vinyl can sound almost as quiet. Vinyl being a mechanical medium will have a bit of a higher noise floor but it's not as obtrusive as the unwashed anti-vinyl yappers try to claim. Used vinyl can be noisy, mostly due to lack of proper care from previous owners. But clean vinyl is not all "crackly and clicky" but is smooth and can be quit velvety in sound.
Good luck if you choose to play down this audio path. It can be fun, rewarding and a pleasure in listening but it will be more work and have higher rituals required to get that analogue sound out of your system.
Thanks to all for their brutal honesty. I may shelve the idea again until the "urge" returns (which it inevitably will). At least I have more opinion to move forward with.
But I cannot leave without just saying to Lindisfarne...how little minded your statement was. Clearly, someone has p!ssed you off one too many times (perhaps me?) and it shows. Just becuase I enjoy soundstage and imaging and generally enjoy music from audiophile labels does not mean I don't enjoy music as a whole. As a matter of fact, I have found copious amounts of amazing MUSIC through audiophile and independent labels, that I would have otherwise never found by sticking to mainstream labels.
I listen to plenty of other music under non-critical listening situations (and will also play mainstream labels on my main rig if they are recorded well). I am a music fan at heart, but am hindered by the sheer fact that most modern, mainstream music is not cared for properly at the engineering/mastering stage and thus sounds mediocre (at best, sometimes unbareable) on a highly-resolving system. These types of recording tend to sound MUCH better on a standard playback system that wasn't specifically tailored around resolving EVERY little detail.
At the end of the day, if I could block out the imperfections in the recordings and suppress the desire to enjoy soundstage and imaging, I wouldn't even be here on this site. I'd be happy with a $300 hose wave radio (sorry, had to throw a jab at Bose) and a stack of CDs. Unfortunately, neither of the above are possible for my ears and listening. Still yet, it means nothing toward my joy of music and the art.
So please, keep your condescending comments to yourself and if you have nothing of value to contribute, just pass the thread by.
To everyone else who contributed with genuine substance, thanks again!
Quick answer is "no". Anyone who buys music for soundstage, imaging and sticks to labels that produce good sounding stuff does not like music. And vinyl is all about music.
1. One of the biggest things that has kept me from trying Vinyl thus far is the concern of excessive hiss and crackle/pop that vinyl is known for. Is it safe to assume that purchasing new Vinyl and played on a higher quality setup will reduce (eliminate?) the pops and crackle sounds? I have no problem purchasing exclusively new vinyl, knowing full well that the process of shopping used is what draws so many to this market...
I have my vinyl playback pretty much 100% free of all noise. It's possible to do but requires a lot of work.
I had a couple of Audiogon members here yesterday and they were literally laughing out loud at how quiet my LP playback was. That being said, analog playback is very important to me and I have a lot of years invested at making it right.
If you want simple, this is not it. CD is simple and why it has succeeded so well. Download is simpler still and will likely displace CD. Most people don't care enough about playback quality to invest the time, effort and money.
Second part of my response to your question concerns the music.
Mostly you can get anything that's on LP as digital but not the other way around.
Sure, there are rare records and some great out of print music but that's pretty much what Elizabeth suggested with shopping used.
Vinyl absolutely requires more of a commitment than digital, but many feel it's worth it. Yes, there will always be some noise somewhere on the records, but if you're buying new vinyl, it should be minimal and outweighed by the better sound - assuming YOU think it's better.
I would not buy a used tt, as there are too many things to go wrong. My advice it buy a Music Hall MMF5 or MMF7. They come all set up and ready to go. When I got back to vinyl, I purchased an MMF5, which was not as nice as the one they have now, and I felt that it gave me a decent taste of what vinyl was about.
As to cleaning - at first I bought only new vinyl and used Gruv-Glide to clean them. It was OK for starters, but I think you will need to eventually buy a machine. They go for between $350-$600 for a decent one. One other idea. I buy a lot of vinyl from Better Records. They have some very expensive records, but plenty of reasonably priced stuff as well. And, for $5, they will machine-clean your records, so you really don't have to worry about it. Unless you mess it up, one cleaning will last a long time. Oh, you'll probably need a phono preamp. Ask underwood about it. Probably $150-$250, depending...
I would check out Underwood HiFi here on A'gon for the Music Hall. He usually has perfect trade-ins at fair prices and you'll have some support when you have questions. Well, that's my opinion anyway.
You've been thinking about this for a while. Do you have any friends who have a TT, where you can get an idea of living with one? If you don't already own any records, you will be in for a long time search, maybe develop a habit!! Not trying to dissuade you, as I am beginning to get back to it in a big way. I already have a bit of a collection going back 30++ years. There is nothing like it, but does require some commitment. Records can be cleaned with a modest manual set-up. There's plenty of information in the forums here.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
