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Features,build, flexibility and reliability the PL HP is a solid buy. Haven't heard the CJ, but i'm sure it's a fine amp for what it is. Sonically, it's just another subjective call. With the PL, you can fuss with power tubes to your ears. If you MUST have made in USA go Conrad Johnson. The PL HP with Focal 1038's are a nice match. I've had mine for 5 years. There's plenty of positive user and reviewer write ups on it. Good enough to worry about the rest of the system. Have you looked at Line Magnetic? If you're not adverse to made in China, they are worth a look also. |
cj cav getting kinda old, make sure it is in good shape... might need a recap primaluna is very good, there are other even lower price china made options like line magnetic or cayin, also very nice - stay with the better established brands with good track records, you will be just fine don’t mind miller carbon and his derogatory china comment... his i-phone is made in china, he just doesn’t know it LOLOLOL |
donvito, that Melody amp was purchased 12 years ago. Back when we all thought China would join the free world, long before we knew about the official CCP policy of unrestricted warfare. Long before we had seen it in action. So things change, and when they do I change my mind to reflect the new reality. Now its top of my list to be replaced, and by a Raven. Now I would not even consider anything made in China, especially not when there's so much better stuff made right here in the USA. I put a lot of time and energy into researching my gear. Months, to sometimes a year or more. This time with Raven, been looking into a better integrated for well over a year now. Its not for everyone but its the way I do it, and its been a dozen years at least since I've bought a dog. Which interestingly enough that dog was made in China. Now my next amp will be a Raven. Osprey or Reflection? We will see. But one or the other. There simply is nothing else even close, certainly not within reach of my budget. I am a serious value buyer and long term holder. This may well be my last amp. It will be a Raven. It is in my view not even close. So that's what's up with that. |
lil sidebar given that this thread asks about cj vs pl but it is interesting miller is so high on the ravens i think anytime a manufacturer offers free extended in home trials it speaks volumes about the overarching confidence they have in their product vs the competition i have been a die hard audio research and vac fan for many years, recently tried and like a primaluna... really good for the money in many important ways but now may need to try a raven miller - you have a raven in house? or are you thinking about getting one for your teks? my only concern trying a raven is my harbeths and proacs are a notch less sensitive than your teks -- wonder about db headroom |
I would consider a new Rogue Audio Magnum 3 integrated amp also. Made here in the US and great customer service. It has 100w per channel, a phono section and a headphone jack. Very easy to bias the tubes and it comes in 2 finishes. If interested call Johnny R at Audio Connection he is very knowledgeable. |
@millercarbon https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/nighthawk-mk3-tube-amplifier/No contest. No contest based on what? All of your listening experiences comparing the CJ, PL, and Raven? Barking out a brand with no context or basis is beyond unuseful. |
"my harbeths and proacs are a notch less sensitive than your teks -- wonder about db headroom" If they work fine with the PL, likely fine with Raven. "i have been a die hard audio research and vac fan for many years, recently tried and like a primaluna... really good for the money in many important ways" jjss49- I caught this line from a review on the Reflection, which was disappointing to find out: "The amp runs in self-bias, or cathode bias, which is my preference for consumer electronics.": https://www.dagogo.com/raven-audio-reflection-integrated-amplifier-review/ Their autobias isn't the latest that VAC/PL use. https://www.primaluna-usa.com/adaptive-autobias In the grand scheme of things, it's something that's not going to be heard from your speakers. But if we're comparing parts..... Other than having a more diverse lineup, I don't see much difference from other small USA companies. https://rogershighfidelity.com/ I wouldn't be surprised if Raven is really a Korean company that just ships their stuff here to be assembled. Who cares...if it sounds great, which I don't doubt, it doesn't matter. |
I owned the PL Dialogue Premium prior to the Rogue. The PL was serviced 3 times in 4 years and the problem was with the auto bias section. Each time a power tube lit up and blew the board. Rogue uses individual fuses for each power tube in case this happens which prevents any damage to the amp. Auto bias also introduces an additional circuit which may affect the sound quality. I prefer to bias the amp myself which takes just a few minutes plus it guarantees all the tubes are set the same. Sound wise, the Rogue is also more detailed and cleaner sounding but that’s my opinion. |
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/raven-blackhawk-integrated-amp-arrives-saturday Unfortunate experience by the op of that thread with the Raven |
No contest, Conrad Johnson is as good as it gets in tubes. They keep the pathways simple, and utilize the highest quality materials. That's their ethos. Their reference amps ART300 are the best high powered tube amps in the world, so I assume that would trickle down to their integrateds. I used the CJ LP260M with the Focal Sopra 2's and had tremendous results. And, it is American Made. |
Hold on there gentlemen... Raven Audio is and always has been an AMERICAN manufacturing business, started in Trinity County, Texas by ME in 2008. At first, back in 2008 I hired a very talented engineer from Seoul, South Korea to design some of our first amplifiers. They were though all ALWAYS manufactured in the little town of Chita, Texas in Trinity County. Only! That older facility is in fact still here on my property and I still do some wiring and prototyping there, and the listening rooms are all scattered throughout the original 2.2 acre property, which we lovingly call "La RanChita - Home of Raven Audio". We have also always had our main listening rooms here, and for a while there was a larger 5 room facility in Onalaska, Texas when we started getting really busy and needed more space. But we grew out of that also. Since then we have moved on to a MUCH larger facility. We now sell hundreds of amplifiers, thousands of cables and dozens of speakers per year. The Raven Audio speakers were designed by our newest partner, James Connell of Dallas, Texas and the first ones were also built in his home shop. The Avian Series integrated amplifier chassis are manufactured and powder coated in Dallas, Texas. The PC boards are manufactured and stuffed and machine soldered by an aerospace manufacturing facility in College Station, Texas where Texas A&M is, and all the employees are A&M alumni. This is the same facility that built the boards for the Shuttle, ISS, several black projects for the US Air Force, and the Mars and Moon Rovers, and many other NASA and military aerospace projects. They are the best of the best and security is extremely tight at all times. It took years to get into that facility. The hand wiring for the Avian Series (between the chassis and the boards and transformers - is also done there by highly experienced ladies that have a minimum of a decade of experience each. The Elite Series amplifiers are wired and built by James Connell, and Bill Baker at our new facility in Shreveport, Louisiana. The new amplifiers and preamplifiers for the last few years are all designed by Bill Baker of New York, an electronics/designer for several well-known USA manufacturers. The Avian Series products are all PC board based, and the Elite Series are all point to point hand-wired products. We are NOT a Korean company. Never were. We are USA made to the bone~!!! Just goes to show you that what you read on this forum should always be suspect unless you do your homework. Sincerely, Dave Thomson Founder Raven Audio |
Good to read my suspicions are false. Doesn't matter to me where something is made. Only my 2 most used sources are domestic-table and tuner. The rest is international-China,Italy and England. Hopefully, this thread doesn't fall off a cliff. The earlier post unintentionally sidetracked from the topic, which is CJ or PL. Apologies. |
Ive had great pleasure with my Primaluna Dialogue Premium separates which includes the HP Amplifier. I prefer it with the NOS Mullard El34's and NOS Mullard 12au7 long plates that I got from Andy at VTS. I havent had any issues with it so far. However, now knowing that Ravens have their boards soldered at Texas A&M where they've built things for mars and the moon, I might just have to put the Primaluna up for sale now. Who knew. |
it is time when a lot of china bashing is well deserved but let’s separate politics and authoritarianism from hifi gear and its fair evaluation china makes a lot crap, but also plenty of extremely high quality items - like design and manufacturing of anything anywhere, it is what is your objective function, what is your management and technical skill, and your ability to quality control your output thinking clearly and being intellectually honest requires good care and judgement in parsing and delineating important distinctions, compartmentalizing where it is deserved |
I have listened to most of the PrimaLuna line and have always liked them. They sound good, are musical & engaging, built well, and offer good service. I can say the same for CJ ( disclaimer - I provide concierge service for CJ and few other manufactures). Allow me to share my recent experience. I purchased a CAV45S2 (which is a current production amp) because I wanted EL34 tubes and wanted to see if I could build a simple system that I could live with for a long time. Out of the box the CAV sounded lovely. After 200 hours I knew that it had settled in and I could begin to tube roll (self-inflicted addictions). With the stock tubes and my speakers (87db @ 4ohms) the sound stage was wide, the mids smooth and warm, and the top was open but on some music it sounded a little rolled off. So, it was nicely playing back what it was fed. However, I did not hear the same detail as with my CJ Classic 120SE, CJ MF2550SE, or Resolution M100s. Nor did I fully expect to. Regardless, the CAV45S2 was really musical and engaging. I liked what I was hearing and found myself listen to the CAV more and more. I changed the three small tubes ( V1 to a Mazda 7308 and V 2 & 3 to Telefunken 5965s. The sound was smoother with a new degree of clarity. I then tried Groove EL34s and the sound (mainly mids) became a hair richer and warmer. Then, at the recommendation of one of my customers with CJ Classic 62, I installed Sophia Electric EL34s. The amp/sound was transformed. The soundstage was wider and deeper. There was new purity and detail. It was buttery smooth and life-like. Wow! I was captivated and found myself listening to CD after CD, especially disks I had not listened to in a long time. I may not have fully answered your question. But, the reality is that it comes down to your goals, budget, ears, speakers, room, patience to try different tweak, and whether you want to listen to music or build a system you can live with for a long time. There is no one or right answer. For me, I had an experiment that turned out beyond expectations. I look forward to turning the CAV on and just listening to music. I knew that the CJ Classic 62 and 120 were very good amps. I now think that the CAV is a sleeper because of its sound, build quality, and price. I got much more than just simple and EL 34s. I hope this helped. |
Owned an original CAV for several years and loved everything about it. Also had a CJ CA200 which is an excellent unit and can be had for around $2500. I’d probably take the CA200 over the CAV45 just ‘cos it’s a little more neutral and more detailed. I can’t get past Kevin Deal and the fanboy style he uses to promote the PL gear. Go look at any used amp on his website and there’s a story about how someone traded it in for a Primaluna and the customer has died and gone to heaven (died in a fire caused by a faulty tube, probably). CJ all day. |
kevin deal on youtube gets pretty hard to stomach after a while, but he means well, knows his stuff, like anyone, what he believes and purports is a function of his experiences - and of course, when he is talking he is trying to sell you something primaluna is very very good stuff cj maybe half a cut above in terms of overall quality can’t really go wrong with either - they stand behind their products and they work well sound very good indeed |
