Conrad Johnson Classic 120se vs. Linear Tube Audio 40 Reference Amps

But I’m wondering if the LTA 40 Reference might be too SS sounding? Likewise, based on my experience with Conrad Johnson ART 150, will I find the Classic 120se also too neutral sounding - lacking what I understood the CJ warmth of glow I had hoped for?

couple points to your query

1) yes some feel the linear tube zotl ref40 amp is somewhat solid state sounding, especially if one expects a softer, sweeter, honey colored sound... this amp is a berning design, without output transformers, so its transparency and speed is outstanding, while providing the best imaging and midrange magic that tubes can offer -- but the treble is not laid back or rolled off, but this is also why it gives such great sense of air and soundstaging

2) i think you need to go back a few generations for c-j tube power amps to get the old school tube sound... i think the choice of power tube -- especially newer russian kt120/150 series tubes -- heavily dictates the presentation of modern tube amps -- these high power highly linear tubes will not roll off treble or bass... i think you need to go back to older premier 11a/11xs gen amps, with 6550 or el34 output tubes to get the more traditional c-j tube amp sound

hope this helps

If you’re looking for the “old” warmer CJ sound you’re probably better off with the non SE Classic 120 with EL 34’s. LTA’s won’t get you there. 

Something you might be interested in that I saw on the CJ website regarding P120’s:

1. All versions are superb, the deciding factor lies in the user's personal preference of output tubes. 

2. The EL34 sound is magical, it has that enveloping sound, wraps around you and you can melt in your seat... 
The mid-range and musicality is superb, plus the 3D affect on the mid-range one can reach out and touch something... 

3. The SE version fitted with KT120's is all of the above at a very powerful level. It will produce a heavy slam on bass when called for and lift the entire soundstage to a remarkable level of resolution and depth. At the same time it is fast and quick to respond and can handle higher peaks driving virtually any load (even electrostats) at very realistic levels. It will not over-power or be overbearing in any terms.

4. My overall preference was the EL34 version fitted on the SE, that was something special. Similarly to the ARTsa fitted with EL34's, as for me it had that "classic CJ sound".

5. The KT120's are more powerful and provide an effortless sense of drive and dynamics along with superb transient control. 

All versions are extremely musical, therefore tubes is a personal choice and would have to be personally auditioned to finalize. 
 

@bluethinker66 

Your ears are serving you well. KT150s are more neutral and add bass control. The CJ Classic 120 SE with EL34 and the CJ Slovak 6922 will deliver a warmer sound. It will be a little to the warm side of neutral. As I wrote before the 120 SE is a wonderful amp and I use that not the ART 150. Your room and cables will also impact the sound, but you need to decide how far off the neutral center you want to be. The non SE 120 is a very good amp and may be closer to what you want. The Teflon caps add more purity and detail. A non-SE can also be upgraded later on. 

Will the LTA have enough power for you?

Always happy to have a call.
 

I don’t know if this helps but I have the Audio Hungary a50i and Conrad Johnson cav45 S2. I don’t know how much the LTA changes the character of your AH or much about LTA. I think the SE version they upgrade to Teflon caps, don’t quote me. That may take away the Conrad Johnson sound a little.
 

There is definitely a different presentation between the CJ and the AH in my room. The CJ is like a old warm and cozy friend it just plays music and very relaxing. Great imaging, smooth and just a joy to listen to jazz and folky stuff. Being a control amp it is very transparent it sounds like a $5000 preamp on a 60 watt CJ amp.

On the other hand the AH shines with fast complex stuff like acid jazz, fusion, rock but also fantastic with normal jazz and folk just a great all around amp. The AH definitely sounds like a tube amp. The AH shines with anything you throw at it. If I could only pick one it would have to be the AH. It’s just in a different league to my ears, it’s fast, crystal clear and it digs deep for information. The CJ calls me to hook it up at times wanting the loose bass rolled off highs and like Conrad Johnson says” it just sounds right” and as strange as it sounds I agree.

@paulcreed. Thanks for adding some more food for thought. The CAV45S2 is a sleeper. Good review in Tone. It is basically the Classic 65 with 3 inputs and a volume control. I love its simplicity. You should upgrade the tubes to Sophia Electric EL34 and either CJs Slovak 6922 or Mazda 7308. Tube rolling transforms the sound. It is not as clean as the Classic 62SE but you can just listen to it. 
 

@bluethinker. Give your room, you may get away with the Classic 62SE but you may need a more efficient speaker.

Since we are talking integrateds, you may want to look at the VAC. It has the power, is built well, and is not a neutral as some of the other amps you have been discussing, but very musical and enjoyable with good bass control. Conversely, their 100 watt amp may just work for you.

Cellorover I’m running Mullard xf2’s which makes a huge difference. Gives that amp it’s clarity and a sophisticated sound it needs kind of like mellow Teflon caps or a little upgrade. Luckily I have a stash of very nice 6922’s and 7308’s. That 6922 slot has a big impact on the CJ. But not as much as what those xf2’s do. I had a BAT preamp long ago I think it took 12 or 14 preamp tubes, what a pain to retube and I didn’t even like the amp. I like simple things now. 

@paulcreed @cellorover @marco1 @jjss49 

Thank you all for your replies.

@jjss49 - Would you be so kind to indulge me with your opinion on the EL34 tube sound? I’ve been reading about it and I’m really curious. I love an airy and bloomy sort of sound with, ideally, as much decay as possible. I guess I’m a sucker for reverb and an ethereal sound. Something tells me that might not be what the EL34 tube is, but I’m curious what it might be. 
 

@marco1 - thanks for pulling all those comments from the CJ forum site. I’m very intrigued by the EL34 tube now. Per my question to @jjss49 im

wondering what that tube sounds like. 

@cellorover - I would welcome a chat, as you’ve suggested. 

Something else you might think about trying.  Instead of using the Cygnus speaker cables look for the older model Golden Reference  which will also warm things up.

As above, I will second the CJ CAV45 S2. It is a sweet "little" Control Amp.

I would like to see CJ add a measure more current and power in the future.

S3 perhaps?

Happy Listening!

paulcreed 

Another +vote for Conrad Johnson, "It just sounds right"

Happy Listening!

I don't have any experience with Conrad Johnson but extensive experience with David Berning and LTA. I have owned several non-OTL tube amps and the clarity and transparency along with the sweet EL34 midrange of my ZOTL40 amp surpasses them all. I also own highly modified Altec 1570B monoblocks and they sound incredible but then, recently Mark Schneider of LTA came over for a demo of his new prototype LTA 120-watt monoblocks they made the Altecs sound broken. When doing an A/B comparison all of a sudden I can hear distortion that I didn't know was there in the Altecs. Berning’s ZOTL architecture is superior to any old-school tube amp. It's truth in transparency.

@bluethinker a question above is worth answering to, i.e.  "you need to decide how far off the neutral center you want to be."?  I agree with @cellorover's question and notes on KT150s. You've already commented hearing the Art 150s in your system, and not liking them as much as your own Qualiton amps, are those the ones with EL509s?  

Having owned different amps with KT150s, KT120s, and EL34s, and you hinted at EL34s, imo they can be at the opposing end of the "bloom" spectrum of KT150s (are more neutral), KT120s (midway, slightly rolled off highs), and EL34s tend to have more rolled off high freq, more pronounced ("bloom") midrange body (more lush) than more neutral KT150s - generally speaking.  However, it truly depends on the amp circuit and associated coupling caps used, for starters. Each of these tubes can sound different in different circuits.@jjss49 already referenced older CJ sound vs. the newer and more modern CJ sound, which is spot on. Here are a few questions you partially noted, and sharing them back with you, with a few twists: 

1) What's your budget limit for a "backup" amp to rotate in once in a while?

2) Are you looking for a second amp as a backup -or- possibly a full replacement to your Qualiton 100w amp altogether? 

3) Are you hard pressed to keep the LTA MicroZotl preamp? (i.e. not that its bad, however its influencing part of what you are hearing when trying other amps).  

If you are truly serious about considering CJ:

Personally, based on your descriptions so far, 87db speakers at 8ohm, I'm thinking you might like EL34s. It will soften things out with your current preamp, imo.  If Conrad Johnson, possibly the Classic CL120 (non-SE) version with EL34 tubes, if you want a newer amp from CJ. Expensive though, for a "backup" amp.  @jjss49 's suggestion to look at older CJ amps may be a more viable option from an affordability perspective. Or, for something lower cost, maybe pick up a used Dynaco ST-70 with EL34s (til you get your Qualiton amp back), something to rotate in once in a while, and you do have 8ohm speakers, more tube amp friendly.  However, the ST-70 will seem underpowered compared to your 100w Qualiton. 

Other:

For any reason you think you might part with the LTA preamp or the Qualiton amp later, its worth possibly deciding some of this first before making any moves, imo.   

Hi Everyone - I appreciate all the responses. Sorry for such a belated reply. After demoing a couple of amps in my house, a rogue hybrid tube/class d amp that was acclaimed by a dealer here in Portland, and then a PassLabs xa30.8, I decided to pull the trigger on a used Conrad Johnson classic 120. Have I heard it? No. 

I decided to go with my gut. Many of your comments helped me with the decision. I also found a video of the classic 60 online and it had the sound signature I am looking for. 

It’s not a neutral sound I am after. I am looking for second order harmonics. Fuzz! 
 

I’ll report back once I’ve got the amp here! 
 

OP,

Congratulations. Look forward to hearing your impressions. I suspect they will be favorable. Sometimes the right approach is to eliminate options and to go for what is left.

@ghdprentice - Thanks! I’m looking forward to hearing these EL34 tubes. The deliberation period was extensive, but ended up going with a gut instinct. Comments from those here on this thread were very helpful. 

@ghdprentice @decooney @lancelock @jafant @marco1 @paulcreed @jjss49  @cellorover 

I realized I never reported back after pulling the trigger on a used Conrad Johnson Classic 120 using 8 EL34 tubes. 

The verdict? 

I could not be happier with the choice. The synergy of the CJ power amp and LTA Microzotl preamp is wonderful. To my ears, the less expensive CJ classic 120 sounds better than the CJ Art 150. It must be the dig fence in tubes. The EL34 tubes have a relaxing and musical presentation that offers a subtle counterpoint tot the Qualiton/Audio Hungary 100 power amp that I switch it with. 
 

This hobby gets too expensive though… ended up spotting some NOS Mullard EL34 tubes that someone was selling because they’d sold their tube amp. When does the madness end?! 

Anyways, thanks to all of you for your guidance. Your collective feedback led me to exactly what I wanted.  
 

bluethinker

Thank You for the update. Good to read that you found your "CJ Amp". There is one model for every Audiophile. Now, go purchase those NOS Mullard EL34 tubes!

Keep me posted as you massage the CJ Classic 120 into your room and system.

Happy Listening!

I ran NOS Mullard el34 in my Premier 12’s years ago. They’re just wonderful tubes in that application and I would expect the same in your amp. What’s another couple of grand for tubes, lol. Snap ’um up while you can 🙃. You might feel a little lighter but you’ll definitely not be sorry.

@bluethinker glad to hear that the 120 was the right choice. I had a stick (16) of NOS Mullard EL34 and sold them. I found that the Sophia Electric Grade A EL34 were just as good for a lot less. Call CJ and get their NOS Slovak 6922. They are very good.