Stringreen!, You don't get it I guess!! The OP never stated that he wanted a high dollar system .
My point to you before was ,you can create a GREAT sounding system with low to mid level components, and get tons of enjoyment from it.
I guess the thousands of us wallowing in junk low to midfi, should stop deluding ourselves that we are enjoying our music and sound from our stereo set ups.
Let's all throw out our collectivly junky lowfi systems to buy headphone set-ups ,until we can afford $15,000, and $8,000 dollar amps that we all "must" desire. Most of us will NEVER be able to afford components at this price level. Congrats on your maga dollar system. I'm sure you are reaping so much more pleasure from the sound and music,
than the rest of us. |
Unsound - Nice stuff! Next time I get the yen to upgrade, I think might be asking you for some advice. |
Todd...stop screaming to me, you sound like a nut. Im telling him (not you) that I spent way too much money on stuff that people like you think makes music. If you save your money and buy the stuff that really sings and brings the pleasure that you're after, you don't have to spend multi-thousands (as I did) that only brings frustration and updateitis. |
IMHO Renaissanceman9, those are great suggestions from Unsound. Stringreen's point about the expense of upgrading is well taken too. At $1K it's a (fun) challenge to put together a system that plays something close to music. At $2K you can get closer.
Money does help, but no matter how much you spend, it is always possible to step wrong and buy gear that plays sound, not music. This fact, plus what money can buy, are the two reasons this is a learning game, and consequently an upgrade game. You buy something that you can live with until you can afford what you really want. You buy used to make your dollars go further and come back to you on resale. You avoid committing the error of choosing at a dealer and then buying the gear second hand.
Most of all, you enjoy the music. Although I would agree with Stringreen that it makes financial sense to go for the best as quickly as you can, it doesn't make sense to go into debt to do it. Enjoy the best you can pay for now. |
Stringreen, I am not screaming to you or at you. I am screaming at your condesending remarks about so called lowfi and midfi junk. First you tell him to save his money, just buy a headphone system, until he can afford the "good stuff".
In your next post,you say he should hold off from buying low budget amps and value oriented crap, to avoid wasting his money on updateitis and frustration. How about giving the OP some solid advice on a $2,000 speaker that would bring him listening pleasure, like Rebbi and all the other posters.
And finally on your pontificating comment "on stuff that people like you think makes music". This just shows that you are in fact an audio snob, who seeks to belittle the majority of us folks on here who own low to midfi systems and enjoy our sound and music.
Todd |
Todd...I AM belittling you because you don't know what you're talking about, and insist that you do. I am drawing on my past. I know instead of spending so much money on stuff that is proported to be value oriented, I should have bought the stuff that really did it for me. I am not telling him what to buy, only to be sure that what he buys is not just a stopgap few month or year stepping stone to his needs. As far as finding happiness in headphones, I have Sennheiser 650's driven balanced by a balanced headphone amp....it was less than 2000 dollars and sounds better to me than almost any speaker I have heard....and it comes incredibly close to reproducing the actual event. I am a pro musician and make my livlihood from being at live events. This is the last post on this topic from me. |
$5000 buys a very good system. Used of course except possibly a cartridge.
I would wait until this $5k are actually available and buy the entire system at once. Patience is a great virtue. If you do it piece by piece, most likely you will screw it up big time. If you are very lucky you will get something decent but not the best this substantial amount of money can buy. And whatever you do trust your ears.
Let the Bose play for now. |
When buying a new system from the 'newbie' level, you can either.....
1. Take a poll at any price point and buy someone elses system.
2. Listen to gear and find what YOU value and go for that in your choices.
I suspect you can, by following #2 get to 90% for 10%....IOW, get high value with few compromises without incurring debt into the next century. What price level? Depends...and depends. I like some very budget stuff. The audioengine speakers do some real right stuff. One of the T-amps if i liked high sensitivity speakers. Maybe one of the music server things.....I'd skip the CD player and leverage my PC or MAC.
Price goes up as bandwidth goes up....and if you want lots of bass in a large room, than Ante Up. For a small or nearfield system? You could bring it all in for a grand.....give or take. |
Stringreen - just curious. Of the 4 systems you have posted which was the first, how much did it cost and how long to get there before you were able to say, "this is it, I don't need anything more"? Or am I misunderstanding your guidance? |
Ghosthouse...I don't understand your question. My system is all Ayre, except VPI Superscoutmaster rim drive/Benz lPS, and Vandersteen 5A speakers. I have owned many, many components, but the system I have now makes musical sense to me. I have heard and appreciate the Vandersteen 7's, but am wondering if indeed the difference is worth the tremendous monetary outlay. The 7's and the 5A's sound very much alike. |
I think Rok2id gave the best advice for a first system. |
Stringreen - My mistake. I looked at your system photo thumbnails and thought you had 4 different systems! That aside, while I agree with your caution to the OP about wasting money on "interim junk" I have to agree somewhat with Toddnkaya. The "you people" comment does rankle and smacks of elitism. I doubt you really think a system can't deliver the music unless it crosses some threshold $ investment level that you approve. Another point I'd like to make is, justification for spending at a given level ought to require education. I've found it necessary to go through an interative process to validate ultimate buying decisions. I doubt you arrived at your preferred system in one step nor would I expect you to recommend the equipment you put together as the preferred system for everyone. I think intermediate/transient gear is an important part of the process.
Hope that makes sense. A Merry Christmas to you and yours. If you celebrate something else, my sincere wishes for happiness in that. |
Thanks again for all of the fantastic insight. It is all very much appreciated, and all points have been well-taken, including all component and speaker suggestions. At this point, I really need to start listening to some things and find out what I like. Since the LSA2's and the Revel's are local, I think I'm going to take my Yamaha receiver with me and go listen to them first.
Another random thought: A couple of folks I've been talking to suggested I maybe check out a 'vintage' receiver, such as the Marantz 2250 or 2270... Is gear like that already way out of date as far as sound quality goes, or does it still 'stack up' in terms of musicality and warmth? |
Re the Marantz receivers -- I and probably a certain number of others on this site used to sell, own or repair them and other contemporary units. Some of us still own one or more.
At the time they were among the best of mass-market gear. Sonically they can be quite agreeable but as an owner and ex-salesman I feel they honestly don't stack up against the modern units you've had suggested to you in this thread. (It hardly bears pointing out that the modern high end units are more expensive than used gear 30 or 40 years old.)
Although Yammie receivers contemporary with those Marantzes sounded almost as good, mass market electronics took a turn for the worse in the 1980s and have continued that way. I have not heard your Yamaha but I would not expect it to sound as musical as the best-built 2-channel Yamahas from the 70s. That means the antique Marantzes may sound nicer than the Yamaha receiver you have today, but not, I think, so much nicer that you could refer to them as an upgrade. More what is known as a sidegrade, and sidegrades are expensive detours on the way to audio bliss.
And then there is the question of maintaining gear that is 30 or 40 years old. |
Thanks, Tobias. That makes total sense. I will continue to check out the integrated amp suggestions made here thus far. |
Speakers are the most important choice to make. With that said, please keep in mind that speakers might perform quite differently in different rooms and/or with different amplification. I would suggest choosing speakers that will perform appropriately in your given room, and with the amplification that appropriately suits that individual speaker in your room, not what you have on hand. Building a system with your current and potential budget, around your current receiver is bound to cause a needlessly frustrating bottle neck.
There has been a lot of conflicting advice given, welcome to the hobby!. None of it is really wrong. IMHO, your correct in deciding upon speakers first. As I've already suggested, I think that one should think in terms of speakers with amplification. Separates will offer you more choices and allow you to make changes easier as you get a better feel for what direction you might want to pursue in the future. If you choose quality used products, you can try them in your home, and keep them if you like them or sell them if you don't, for pretty much what you paid for them, with little penalty other than perhaps shipping costs. As such, while I respect the opposing position, I see little reason to hold off buying key components and upgrading secondary components as your budget allows. Why be without music and the learning experience in the mean time? The key is to buy gear that has stood the test of time and retains it's value. Needless to say, and though there might be some novelty exceptions, poor sounding gear doesn't usually make the list. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't take advantage of opportunities to listen to other systems. Just try to keep them in context of systems that will be at there best within your budget (now and into the realistic short term future), and your room. |
Why be without?
Because you will be without your money spent FOREVER. |
Hi RM9,
I'm probably more of a newbie than you. I have a very low-end system:
1) Pre-amp: Anthem AVM2 (although I've been using a Nakamichi AV8 as the pre-amp / processor and I'm actually quite pleased with it. Surprisingly, despite the MSRP price difference, to my ears given my set up, I think the Nak results in a better experience).
2) Amp: Adcom GFA-5400
3) Source: Sony CDP-X111ES CD player
4) Speakers: KEF C75; KEF Q10 (I'm using the latter more now; mid-high frequencies sound clearer given my equipment and room).
I purchased the Nak, Sony and C75 new (15-20 years ago?). Everything else was purchased used (recently, as my love for music became re-invigorated sans a budget to match). Here is my experience consistent with comments above:
Lesson #1: you can make significant improvements without spending a dime.
The folks here gave me excellent advice. Just by changing my room around a bit helped tremendously -- very noticeable changes in the listening experience. It was not intuitive for me.
Lesson #2: More expensive does not mean better experience.
The Anthem MSRP is about 4x my Nak and is manufactured more recently. Still, given my components and my room, it doesn't make my listening experience better. In fact, it's lateral at best and I think I actually prefer using the Nak as the pre-amp more than the Anthem.
Lesson #3: Music preference, room, etc should influence speaker choice.
I was using my Kef C75 -- larger with more drivers, larger drivers, higher power rating, etc, etc. Should be better than the Q10's, right? Again, given my music preference (jazz and vocals fit for an old timer like me) and my room, the Q10's provide a much better experience. I won't pretend to know what imaging, sound stage, and other esoteric terms mean. But the instruments and vocals are clearer. And if I just listen, my stereo and speakers just disappear. If I walked someone in blindfolded, I doubt they could tell where the speakers where (when sitting in the listening position). Vocals seems to come from a non-existent center channel - more than once, I've gotten up to confirm that the Pro Logic and the Center Channel are off. The C75's sound fine in a larger room, but the Q10's are more enjoyable in my 'music room.'
All told: $400 for the Nak (bought new 15+ years ago), $125 for the GFA-5400, Q10's, cheapo CD player (using the Nak DAC's) -- I'm probably under $500 for the system bought used today.
Is it perfect? No. I'm sure I can get a much better sounding system through experimentation and cost. But as long as you try to avoid the upgrade bug, I agree with others that you can get an enjoyable listening experience without spending a lot. More than budget, I think it's important to establish what is a good enough listening experience. These days, I can't afford to chase diminishing returns. I justify every $100 I spend on improvements.
|
Lots more great advice. I wouldn't worry too much about making bad decisions. I think it's part of the learning experience. If I hadn't gone through the process, I would definitely have a very different system than I do now. Besides, Agon gives you the means to sell your gear if you don't like it. :-)
Unsound gave some good options there. I would also mention that Monarchy Audio has there class a mono-blocks (SM70 Pro) on sale for $588 each. True balanced input monos for $1200 a pair is a pretty amazing deal. Pair that with a preamp and speakers, and you will have one fantastic system. I'm thinking about upgrading to them for my winter system.
One last bit of advice. Pick up the book 'Get Better Sound'. It has some great advice on system setup and room acoustics...which is HUGE in system quality. Anyways, hope this helps!
Mot |
Hey Stringreen, you owe it to yourself (if you have the funds) to try the Audeze LCD2s (or LCD3s). They are finally the next big advance to my ears (and many others on head fi) over the 650s (forget the HD800s, too treble-happy, like lots of flagship phones). Audeze got the message (from 650 lovers) that headphone people don't like their phones to shriek at them at close range. Audeze let's you audition and return for a restocking fee. And if you like them, try a Q-audio cable for them. Good luck. |
Schubert, carefully chosen used components retain much of their value for a fair amount of time. Such components can often be resold for close to their purchase price, perhaps sans shipping costs. Heck, sometimes one can actually turn a profit. All the money spent is not necessarily completely lost "..FOREVER". |
Most people do not enjoy the selling process so do not do it. |
Schubert, for every buyer on Audiogon, there was a seller. |
"Most people do not enjoy the selling process so do not do it."
I agree. Lots of people have a warehouse full of stuff at their house. These folks on audiogon are just tooooooooo picky for me. I used my equipment, I didn't pamper it. If I sold my stuff, I can hear the buyer whining now. who needs all that. |
Just glancing at the sales feedback of those who have contributed to this thread seems to suggest that the assertion that "most people do no enjoy the selling process so do not" might be an overstatement, especially amongst those that have been active on Audiogon longer. |
I've had a great experience buying and selling on Agon. I think it boils down to individual people liking or disliking the experience. But you won't know if you don't give it a shot. :-)
Mot |
Hey everyone-
Thanks for the most recent feedback. Over the last week, I had a chance to audition several pairs of speakers here in town and learned more of what I was looking for... It really is interesting how different some of the manufacturer's philosophies are when it comes to speaker 'tuning'. Ultimately after much listening and even more research, I ended up making an offer on an Audiogoner's pair of used Salk Songtower QWT's and am having them shipped. So, hopefully by next week my speaker void will be filled and then I can at least start listening to music in the room while I take some time to check out some integrated amplifiers. Also got to speak to the head of the Nashville Audio Society and am going to get plugged into their local network here. |
Great progress, Rm9, thank you for the update. Sounds like the New Year is starting well! |
Thanks, Tobias! Will post back after receiving the speakers... Can't wait! |
Hello again, audio friends. Ugh... Unfortunately my foray into this new hobby has not begun too well. The SongTowers I purchased were damaged during shipping, and now I am in the middle of a complicated claims process with FedEx. Needless to say, I am really disappointed. Although the speakers were not completely destroyed, they suffered multiple 'wounds' in the form of dents and chipping off of the finish. Having spent a considerable amount of money on them, I'm not interested in keeping a damaged pair, so it looks like I'll be starting over again once I get my money returned. On a positive note, they do sound pretty good in spite of their looks. :) Really, really frustrating, but there's nothing more I can do at this point. Stay tuned... |
Hey Renaissanceman9, when I was a musician, I also realised that I wasn't taking much time to just sit down and listen. I did however, come from an audiophile household and I'm pretty familiar with most of the gear that's been discussed on the thread so far. It sounds like our musical tastes seem to line up a bit as well, so I think I might be able to help a bit.
For a digital source, I highly recommend one of the Denon mult-format DVD players (Denon 2200, 3910, 3930, 5910). I would try to aim for the 3910. You can find them all the time hear and on eBay. Even though the 3910 was originally a ~1500 player, blu-ray has dropped it's value to where you should be able to get one for $200 or less. The 3910 (and other multi-format players) will let you play CD, DVD-A, SACD, DCD, and even mp3 cds. It should keep up at least through the $5K upgrade cycle, and can be upgraded modified to compete with players that cost >$6K alone.
As far as turntables go, I can only recommend buying locally. Start with either a vintage table or one of the lower line current tables. Since your budget isn't huge, I'd wait until the next upgrade cycle to get into the nicer tables. Perhaps someone in the Nashville area with have an old deck they can sell you. Heck, if you were in the greater DFW area in Texas, I'd just let you borrow my old Technics table for a while.
For speakers and the rest, since you're back to the drawing board, keep listening to other people's setups. Definitely continue to get exposed to different speaker technologies. Heck, even at one of the local Best Buys in the Dallas area, you can go listen to Martin Logan Summits and McIntosh amps. I'm not really big on the McIntosh gear, but it's a good way to check out some good speakers to see if something else in that style of speaker might suit you. Make note of products you've heard and enjoyed more than others (don't forget to indicate things you definitely didn't enjoy). List more of those here, and you'll get plenty of other suggestion for similar products that might fit your budget.
Good luck with your shipping claim. I certainly know it's a beating. |
Very sorry to hear of the shipping damage, Rm9. I'm afraid it's happened to me, too, and I wish I'd mentioned it as a horrible possibility.
Nowadays I always double-insure, with shipsurance.com, as well as with the carrier. You can do this as either buyer or seller as long as you have the tracking number and the rest of the contract conditions are respected.
Very best of luck with the claim! |
Hey everyone-
Well, I'm back. It took about 6 weeks but my saga had a happy ending. I'm not sure what ultimately happened with the seller and the FedEx claim, but he was cool enough to send me all of my money back while he continued to try and work things out with FedEx.
So... over the last few weeks I ended up starting my speaker search completely over. I had a chance to audition many more speakers locally and ended up purchasing a pair of Goldenear Triton Two Towers last night. I am absolutely thrilled with these speakers. Admittedly they were outside of my initial intended budget but I feel the extra investment was well worth it. The Tritons with their built-in subs, have absolutely fantastic low-end and and an overall character that is exactly what I was looking for. I'm right now just powering them temporarily with my older Yamaha A/V receiver but they still sound great to me, even in this limited configuration.
I also found a fantastic deal on a couple of older Yamaha power amps recently, and had to pick them up. One is a PC1002, which I am now using to power an old pair of Yamaha NS10Ms in my recording studio. The other is a mammoth PC2002M, which I am hoping to integrate into my hi-fi system. I've read a lot about these amps and there are evidently some folks out there using these in their systems with success. Do any of you have any experience with either of these amps, particularly the PC2002M? I would love to find a complementary preamp for this and use it in my system if it made sense. It's 240w/ch at 8 ohms and dead quiet... Would it be a decent choice for 2ch at home? If so, what would be some good preamps to consider? I'm leaning towards a tube pre but am open to others. My budget is under $1000 if possible. Another option that's been made available to me recently was a killer deal on a new Yamaha AS-2000 integrated for a grand. Obviously if I went that route I wouldnt be using the PC2002M.
Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Man, am I glad this claims mess is over! It's so nice to be enjoying music again! :) |
I seem to remember the PC2002M being a really nice amp but never heard it in a home audio setup. I believe that it is the pro version of the M-2. I think it's tweaked for a bit more power and you have 1/4" and balanced inputs vs just RCA's with the M-2. Because of that, you may find that suggestions for preamps to mate to the M-2 would also work for the PC2002M. Keep in mind that you should probably be looking for preamps with balanced outs - a little harder in the sub-$1000 budget but not impossible. |
