Clocking: again!

@antigrunge2

Right on! I was just as gobsmacked when I switched the stock cable between my DAC and Clock with Acrolink 6N-D5070II. I was immediately struck by how all concepts of imaging and staging were redefined. The bass and treble response further improved to reference-level, and the midrange became fully articulated and colorful.

Any improvement you make to a Word Clock or Master Clock will pay off big time, like a dedicated LPS or cable upgrades. How can bits be just be bits when you put a $3.5k clock cable on a Master/ Word Clock? It's just crazy amazing!

In our hobby everything matters and we are only at the very beginning of optimizing streaming.

Amen brother.  It’s a brave new world.  I just realized streaming Qobuz through my iPad even with upgraded cables falls short of just playing a damn CD.  So here we go...

External clocks are meaningless if your DAC reclocks everything.

If not spend up and enjoy it.

@ Fuzztone:  Yes, my DAC reclocks.  Still, an external clock and the EtherRegen make a huge improvement to the sound. It is obvious for anybody who cares to actually try it.  And you cannot explain that, so it is better to remain in denial.

Asynchronous USB as well as Ethernet are asynchronous, meaning that D/A conversion clock runs independent from incoming data.  The only possible difference is how much of ambient electrical noise each cable injects into DAC. Injected noise can affect clock timing.

NO NO NO!

A 10Mhz Master Clock acts as a metronome to any internal clock wherever it is. It doesn't take over just provides perfect as possible timing to every component that accepts a 10 Mhz 75 or 50 Ohm input.

It is the Conductor that provides the timing only. There is no mystery or Voodoo involved it's science.

Word Clocks work differently Master Clocks are superior that's why they cost more than Word Clocks.

My project rs2 disc transport uses Hdmi (i2s) into the rs2 dac... Reclocks this way compared to coax or optical. A bit better but not a quantum jump.... Saying that I am using a very basic Hdmi so might splurge more 

I can hear the difference between £30 Mogami 2964 with canare BNC and £150 oyaide cable between a super cheap Chinese 10mz clock (£90) and the Etherregen.

Much easier to hear than any changes I've done in the Ethernet cable between the Etherregen and my DAC, maybe that's because my clock is so cheap :)

@discopants,

it‘s not that your clock is cheap: with the right cable it‘s still better than the one built into the Etherregen! Clocking in digital is primordially important.

@discopants You're only going to get the max effect if you clocked your streamer and the Etherregen simultaneously and your DAC too, if possible.

It's probably not the cheapness of your clock it's the crappy switching wall wart PS that came with it. If you can upgrade to a LPS you'll hear a difference.

@lordmelton,

agreed, slight addendum: if connecting the server to the DAC via USB it actually matters to synchronise clocking between Etherregen and DAC. The server is addressed by the DAC‘s slaving its clock under the asynchronous protocol. Better clocking, better sound, it really is as simple as that. Fully agreed on using an LPS instead of the wallwart for the Etherregen

@antigrunge2 

Is the LPS superior to the SMPS wall wart strictly due to having less noise or is there more to it than that? This change in power supply seems to be universally recommended. 

Charles 

What you get from the switch is foremost a lowering of the noise floor with resultant increase in blackness and impulse. In addition there seems to be less spurious noise affecting the DACs conversion and analogue stage, leading to higher resolution and better rendition of instruments‘ attack and reverb, thereby rendering them more 3-dimensional. The impact of the LPS is though lesser compared to the improved clocking

@antigrunge2 

Thank you.

Charles

I'll  throw this out there again. I tried audiophile switch (TXCO clock) with LPS, unfavorable results. Overly precise cookie cutter image outlines and performer placement on sound stage. I prefer spaciousness and air around performers on sound stage, much more natural.

At this point I'm making the presumption one can encounter situation where there may be excessive clocking and/or incompatible clocks over an entire network.

Has anyone else heard the above sound staging and image effects caused by adding more clocking to network? Still waiting for satisfactory explanation for above. Its been offered up my network switch inferior, cause of above. My response is this clock is doing exactly what it designed to do, I've previously heard greater ss and image precision, along with more detail with prior clock upgrades, adding switch concurred exactly with prior clock upgrades.

The Master clock referred to above makes sense if issue I'm having due to incompatible clocks.

I am afraid a TXCO clock, possibly with a generic BNC cable in most cases will be inferior to the internal clock of your DAC resulting in a very pointy and ultimately unpleasant sound. As I said in my original post superior cables are needed if you go to an external master clock and that clock has to be OCXO or Rubidium to be better than the Dac‘s own. The idea is not to add more but better clocking, both in terms of accuracy and phase noise.

Yes, ocxo and rubidium clock superior to txco, my switch was advertised as ocxo clock, I opened up and discovered txco clock. Regardless, I presume I'd have unhappy with ocxo clock as well.

I'm convinced enough of my presumptions that any more clocking upgrades not on horizon for me. My present planned upgrades will  be all discreet componentry. Roon library on present modded mac mini to either diy or Euphony Summus server running Stylus OS to Euphony streamer/endpoint to dac, all components running LPS. Already have all AQ Vodka ethernet, AQ Diamond usb and FMC. Server processing power will be sufficient for HQPlayer DSP if desired.

My research has convinced me all discreet components optimum setup, running multi services within one component noisier. Things are getting more complex, not less for me. Clocks are of secondary importance for me at this point. My dac already runs ocxo clock.

I already run LPS on Etherregen and the Chinese clock , both have home brew power cords and feed from an Isotek sigmas gen 2 with a DC blocker on the power cord feeding the isotek.

I have built and engineered (including hands-on physical inspection and RF analytics) of 100s of thousands of  Ethernet ports. Ethernet does not have a clock on the wire.

If you are running industrial Ethernet (e.g. Electrical grid switching, trading floors, IP Studio - SMPTE 2110, AES67, Dante etc.) you may need to run Precision Time Protocol IEEE 15888, but no-one is doing that domestically!

Sorry maxwellseq reality isn't a commodity accepted here. Give us your over the top useless personal anecdotal blabber referencing psuedoscience double talk the sellers of these components use to get idiots to buy this nonsense. Then you'll be in the club.

@djones51 

Get some help, mate

@antigrunge2

Just ignore the likes of djones51. His mindless posts here are indicative of his reference which is DSP controlled active speakers with a built in DAC 😂

There are 3 factors involved here;

I. Master Clocks 10 Mhz 75 or 50 Ohm

2.Word Clocks which have to be manually switched to the frequency of the source recording e.g. 44.1, 48, 192 kHz etc.

3.Re-Clockers which reprocess and de-jitter a signal between the source and DAC. A re-clocker usually benefits from a stable signal from a Master Clock.

A clock without a linear and preferably regulated DC power supply is like a ship on the high seas, whereas a good power supply brings it onto dry land.

Imagine your family all used different clocks no one would get to school/work/whatever on time. All your digital equipment connected to the same Master Clock keeps everything in synch.

Yeah, those DSP controlled active speakers with the built in DAC are junk, I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone here unless they’re interested in state of the art design, FR and sound reproduction. Of course you'll need to find somewhere to introduce a useless clock. 

“state of the art design, FR and sound reproduction.”

You do indeed live in a DSP controlled bubble 😂

@lordmelton  has the solution on clocks. So, the question becomes in what order do we upgrade streaming solutions. We have the choice to optimize clocks first, or after server, streamer and all other network upgrades available to us.

@sns If you're using computer audio your first priority should be a re-clocker. If you have a streamer then a Master Clock but it all depends if these devices have a clock input.

If you PM your personal case maybe I can assist.

You do indeed live in a DSP controlled bubble 😂

Guilty.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/

was impressed both by the sound quality and the quality of engineering exhibited by the Dutch & Dutch 8c. Even without REW, the 8c's response extends at full level to 20Hz. But with the REW integration and the ability for a pair of these speakers to act as a Roon endpoint, which will be available by the time you read these words (footnote 5), I echo Kal's conclusion that the D&D 8c demonstrates that active, DSP-empowered speakers are the future. And I also echo what I wrote in our original review: "Wow!"—John Atkinson

So I have the Etherregen and love it.  Precisely which 10Mhz Master clock is recommended with it and whose cables?

@dougthebiker  Hi Doug, This is what the manufacturer says and to be honest clocking the Etherregen alone, I doubt is going to produce such a big change as clocking your streamer and/or DAC together with the Etherregen.

Extreme usage with an External Reference Clock:

The Crystek CCHD-575 oscillator used in the EtherREGEN is one of the lowest phase-noise production crystal oscillators (XO) available. [Sorry, but the $50~$100 OCXOs we see tossed into stock switches do not outperform the Crystek at low-offsets where it counts; Manufacturers have to spend $500 and up to obtain OCXO clocks with significantly lower phase-noise than the Crystek we use.]

Yet some audiophiles have discovered benefits using expensive ultra-low-jitter/low-phase-noise 10MHz reference clocks with their DACs or USB streamers and conditioners. A clock synthesizer (to generate the various frequencies) is always required for a device to accept an external reference clock. Since we already utilize a very advanced one to produce the 4 clock lines in the EtherREGEN, it was easy for us to include provision for connection of an external 10MHz clock. The BNC jack and termination resistor of the EtherREGEN are for a 75ohm clock line. (We can provide units with 50ohm, but only upon special request.)

@doufthebiker,

Afterdark in HongKong has a whole range of performance packages including cables, other good clocks (albeit much more expensive are Cybershaft from Japan, Antelope Audio and Mutec. I concur with @lordmelton on at least reclocking the Dac and -if not using asynchronous USB the server. Obviously 10m clocks only work if your equipment has masterclock inputs. Wordclock inputs require stepping down the masterclock signal, eg Mutec. I use BNC cables from Shunyata (expensive) and Sommercable in Germany.

Thanks for the info!

Oyaide DB 510 is excellent value at around £150 for 0.7m on well known auction websites.

Hi,  My Tambaqui is both my  DAC and Streamer.

I have EtherREGEN directly in front of it.

Please clarify reclocking the DAC vs Reclocking the EtherRegen.

Thanks, Ken

@fastfreight,

to my knowledge the Tambaqui has neiter word-nor master clock inputs. So all you can do is reclock the Etherregen, which with a good clock should nevertheless prove worthwhile doing

In addition to supporting the Etherregen with LPSU and masterclock I have now introduced an Ocxo clocked swith with LPS from China. The further tightening and blackening of the sound is very worthwhile for the $300 spent. This is purely to improve the Ethernet connection without using the master clock, yet results in a further significant improvement.

Chinese Ocxo Switch->DXE ISO PLUS->Etherregen on Antelope Audiophile Clock and LPSU->InnuOS Zenith Mk3.

Thanks ag2.  That is what I thought.  Looking at After Dark, do you or others have comparisons of Queen (825 w LPS) vs Emperor (885 -1580 w/o LPS)? How about their Black River EVA carbon 75ohm cable(385).

Have a great weekend!

This is the reference to the Chinese Ocxo switch, it is now fully broken in after 4 days and the effect on the Etherregen is remarkable: 

@fastfreight,

sorry, can‘t help there. However, the above switch lifts up the Etherregen performance on its own clock considerably and may be a good first step.

Does anybody have experience of using a dcS Rossini with an Esoteric G-02X clock?

the Rossini clock input impedance is 75 Ohms and the Esoteric has 4 world clock outputs which are also 75 Ohms and the owners manual states: "You can set the clock frequency independently for each of these outputs" so I am assuming that I can run 2 connections into the Rosssini, one at 48 kHz and one at 44.1 kHz simultaneously.

Any actual experience would be appreciated.

I cannot comment on your specific setup but would advise against your suggested approach: not only will even minute differences in the impedance of the connecting cables create divergences in the clock signal transmission but the method chosen for stepping up or down the clock signal in your Rossini may in turn equally introduce timing differences. A better way to proceed might be to add a higher quality 10m clock such as a Mutec Ref120, a Cybershaft Op20/21 or Antelope 10m clock to your setup. In any case only use very high quality BNC cables.

My view of Master Clock Generator: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/post/what-is-a-master-clock-generator

Take away:

If you are after the best audio quality, and one or more of your equipment supports Master Clock Sync Input, it is worth considering to invest in a good quality clocking device.

When choosing the Master Clock Generator, it's mandatory to verify the following:

• Clock Frequency (10MHz / 22.5MHz, 24.576MHz / etc)

• Impedance (50Ω / 75Ω)

• Waveform: Sine-wave / Square-wave

Cheers,

Alvin Chee @ Vinshine Audio