I would like to start a thread, similar to Orpheus’ jazz site, for lovers of classical music. I will list some of my favorite recordings, CDs as well as LP’s. While good sound is not a prime requisite, it will be a consideration. Classical music lovers please feel free to add to my lists. Discussion of musical and recording issues will be welcome.
I’ll start with a list of CDs. Records to follow in a later post.
Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique. Chesky — Royal Phil. Orch. Freccia, conductor. Mahler: Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Vanguard Classics — Vienna Festival Orch. Prohaska, conductor. Prokofiev: Scythian Suite et. al. DG — Chicago Symphony Abbado, conductor. Brahms: Symphony #1. Chesky — London Symph. Orch. Horenstein, conductor. Stravinsky: L’Histoire du Soldat. HDTT — Ars Nova. Mandell, conductor. Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances. Analogue Productions. — Dallas Symph Orch. Johanos, cond. Respighi: Roman Festivals et. al. Chesky — Royal Phil. Orch. Freccia, conductor.
All of the above happen to be great sounding recordings, but, as I said, sonics is not a prerequisite.
..."At most he could be called the Father (though not the inventor) of the classical symphony, who paved the way for Mozart and Beethoven. ...We need to remember that Haydn was already twenty seven when George Frideric Handel died in 1759 -- the same year that Haydn composed his first symphony. And when Haydn died in 1809, Mozart had already been in his grave for nearly twenty years. Beethoven completed his sixth symphony in the year of Haydn’s death, and Schubert would compose his first symphony four years later."
I just love the factoids. Remembering the chronological order in classical music is tough.
For a long time I have listened to the various Requiem’s of the Great One’s during Lent. Till last year I did not even know that Dvorak had one and it come up to the best .
I doubt if anyone will listen to a 90 minute Religious Masterpiece , but if I’m wrong , this is the all Czech best one . Choirs are from Heaven as is the norm in the Musical Powerhouse that is this little land.
From the Notes: "The earliest ideals for this Concerto were jotted down in a sketchbook by Beethoven in early 1804. -- The work was performed for the first time, by Beethoven, in March 1807 at a private concert at the palace of Prince Lobkowitz -- The first public performance eventually took place on 22 December 1808, at a large benefit concert at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna. The concert was organized by Beethoven himself and consisted entirely of works of his not previously heard in public, including the Fifth and Sixth Symphonies and parts of the mass in C."
Just think, if you were not at the concert, you just didn't hear this music.
From the Notes: "During the five years preceding his early death, Schubert wrote seven masterpieces of chamber music -- Of these, the last, and arguably the finest, is the Quintet. The unanimous appreciation for this composition is epitomized by the comment of W.W. Cobbett in his Cyclopaedia of Chamber Music: "nothing so ideally perfect has been written for strings as this inexpressibly lovely work." --- Martin Chusid
As I sit listening, I came to the conclusion that God was not doing nothing for his two utmost composers of sheer beauty , Mozart and the even younger Schubert .
He just could not bear any longer to not have them by his side .
Speaking of Easter you could hardy do better than this Masterwork !
https://youtu.be/FjJ02agjjdo?t=1 Seldom do you hear a perfect rendering of any anything , esp. one as big as this one is complicated and 400 years old. To my hears this is perfection
I recently received Schubert String Quartet, D-956, by The Takacs Quartet. I have not listened to it yet. All these folks are just great.
I always thought when a Quartet went from Quartet to Quintet, they added a second Viola. Seems as if they added a second Cello on all the performances we have posted or discussed.
The Easter music: I'm more of a "Were You There When They Crucified My Lord" type. But it was beautifully sung.
Sometimes, a double bass. Still other times, piano or a wind; sometimes a third violin. Generally speaking and re nomenclature, whatever the fifth added instrument, that is the type of quintet that it, technically, is referred to as. Schubert’s Quintet D. 956 is, technically speaking, a “cello quintet”.
One of my favorite Quintets. Brahms Clarinet Quintet. The great Harold Wright, clarinet. One of the best examples of what players today may refer to as an “old school” clarinet sound. Light and free, with a lot of “smile” in the tone; as opposed to the much more dense, darker and less flexible approach that is in vogue today. Beautiful player.
rv, I love the Schubert D960 (like everybody) and as you know there are many very good renderings of same . I’ve had about 20 over the years. l know I have a Germanic bias and I would say this guy this perhaps not the best technical player but this 1967 recording is the most "Schubert" of the bunch . Tell me how foolish I am please .https://youtu.be/TrRSQboCGxQ?t=16 Guy is Wilhelm Kempff
rok , Understandable a SB would not get a 400 year Catholic Classic .
Though I did not Study Music at Munster I did drop in a class about Music often . The Prof was VERY learned and a pleasure to hear. One thing he said talking about String Qts. has stuck with me. He said never get angry at the North American groups , they have a slight problem , very slight and one they one they do not know, Their culture is "how am I doing " , Ours is " how are we doing " .
they have a slight problem , very slight and one they one they do not know, Their culture is "how am I doing " , Ours is " how are we doing " .
I would not consider that a "problem". Besides, without American Individualism, there would be no Jazz improvisation. Reminds me when I taught in the Army electronics / Missile school, we had courses that were 'self-pace', and others that were 'lock-step'. The Europeans have always been "Lockstep".
400 year Catholic Classic: However, this SB loves Handel's Messiah. Not quite 400 years old, but, Just recently got a new CD of Messiah. Will post tomorrow. I listen to it year round. I understand it premiered in Dublin instead of London to avoid a religious ruckus. You probably know the details better than I do.
If memory serves , It opened in Dublin because in Enlightenment London in the early 18th century a theater drew more than a Church , as it did in "Founding Father" America, When it got such a great opening in Dublin they thought it would be safe in London . And as you know and I approve Handel told then what would happen if folks did not shape up.
I listen to it 2-3 times a year and a Bach Cantata every morning .
I would guess that God would like Black Gospel just as much .In the Army some of my NCO’s took me to various AME Churches .
I came away with something I still believe .The "Black Church Ladies " are the backbone of Christianity in the USA.
White Americans are largely brainwashed, far more than any Europeans . One thing comes to that, the death of Democracy . .
**** Their culture is "how am I doing " , Ours is " how are we doing " .****
Interesting comment coming from a learned professor, but to assume that in music making this is necessarily a “problem” is a mistake, IMO. I assume that he was speaking about the concept of “ensemble”. Yes, in any ensemble small or large, it is important to think as one and feel phrasing as one when necessary....but, not at all times and certainly not at the total expense and subjugation of individuality. Unanimity of musical concept is of paramount importance, but individuality at appropriate times is equally as important; otherwise a performance runs the risk of being very bland. The key to good ensemble playing is knowing when to ask oneself “how am I doing”, and when to ask “how are we doing”. The great ensemble player knows how to strike the right balance between the two.
The comment is particularly interesting because it goes counter to what is one of the main differences in the training of players in Europe vs the US. First, neither European nor American conservatories have a clear advantage nor superiority in all areas of training one over the other. The main problem in the US right now is probably that there too many fine conservatories for the number of jobs available. Importantly, the main difference is that in European conservatories professors tend to overwhelmingly be natives of the country where the conservatory is located. American conservatories have much more diversity in their teaching staff and the various European playing traditions are well represented; and their influence (and others) came together to create the “American” school of playing. There is no reason that the very relevant idea of the advantages and richness that are the result of diversity should not apply to music making; just as exists bias against it.
As usual, there is danger in generalities. Just one example of the opposite view:
inna, What you said proves what I have thought, you are mentally ill.
frogman , I think that were he still alive, that Prof would say what you did . It was said in the 1960’s and took about 2 minutes . It stuck in MY mind .
I have noticed over the years that many players have become more harsh etc. I thought it might be because the World they were born into was that.
frogman , I am all into diversity in large countries like the USA. Over 10% of Minnesota population are refuges or immigrants and we are better for it in our Nations largest % iof Federal Voters. . My best friend is Chinese and a nicer man I have never known .
It can be not so good for little countries
Little European Counties like Austria , 8 million, Slovenia 2 million,Czech Republic 3 mill ,fear for their culture and unlike USA have real reason to . They have taken as much people as they can take and are musical lands that want what they have. Big -hearted Sweden is falling apart for taking more than it could handle .Germany , The Euro Engine with about 90 mil took a million in one year and 2,500 refugees raped German women on New Years in Berlin.
rok, I have to go to Church on TV .First one I flipped today started with about 15 minutes of Messiah, Organ, brass and percussion.Pretty Place with no others in it . My first Presbyterian Church, good sermon as well. Preacher was almost like Charles Stanley in Bible knowledge !
FANTASY ON GEORGES GERSHWIN’S "PORGY AND BESS" FOR TWO PIANOS
KATIA and MARIELLE LABEQUE(piano)
The Notes: The fantasy is by Australian born composer Aldridge Grainger(1882-1961) who was an ardent admirer of the music of George Gershwin. Here the Fantasy is recorded in its entirely for the first time.
A few days ago, in a comment made partially in response to Schubert’s statement that Samuel Barber was the “foremost American composer”, I wrote that I agreed “if in strict keeping with the subject of this thread”. When I wrote that, I had George Gershwin in mind as contender for the title of “foremost”, with the qualification that he was not, in a strict sense, a Classical composer. Wonderful composer and arguably the greatest American song writer.
“Porgy and Bess” is a wonderful work and a true landmark in many respects and very controversial to say the least. Despite its huge success, many objected (and still do) to the idea of a white man’s notion of what life in the South at the time was like for blacks and that it promulgated racial stereotypes. In fact, to put Gershwin’s grasp (or lack thereof) of the subject in perspective, it should be noted that Gershwin spent a summer (?!) in South Carolina in order to get a sense of the flavor of black life in the South. At the same time many in the black arts community were glad for the fact that the work gave black singers an opportunity to perform on stage in a work on such a grand scale and of that “seriousness”. Gershwin insisted, and his estate still insists, that the cast be all black. The challenge was and still is in finding a large cast that can sing credibly in an operatic style as well as being able to bring a Jazz sensibility to some of the material. As an aside, he used a three saxophone section in his orchestration of the work. As we know, several of the songs have become Jazz standards. Gershwin called his work a “folk opera”.
Why all the above? Therein lies the reason that I have trouble with the Labeque interpretation of the “Porgy and Bess Fantasy (for two pianos)”. Very nice piano playing, but bizarre interpretation of the music. I know the music very well and I almost don’t recognize the music in spots. Too much “affectation”; and way too “precious” and languorous. Dare I say it? Too French. There is no hint of “folk” (Jazz) or Americana anywhere.
I find this rendition to be much truer to Gershwin’s intent; at least, based on how the music is approached the vast majority of the time:
Btw, the composer “Aldridge Grainger” is none other than Percy Grainger; Australian born, but citizen of the US and “American” composer by any standard.
Check this rok, I was Sgt . of the Guard in Spadau(Berlin) Prison one morning . , French, UK, Soviets and us rotated every 3 month to keep the only two Nazis left there, Speer and Hess . Went around the mess corner and ran into Speer , who was every inch the gent , said in English " Good morning Sargent ,looks like a nice day" . He extended his hand and out of habit I took it .
Hour later I went by Hess and he said " guten Morgen " as he tended his flowers .Must of cost millions to keep two old guys .
You know what they say, The Germans are either at your throat or at your feet. During the time you met them, they were in foot mode.
I got to Germany a year after his (Speer) release. He was quite the celeb. Played the press and public like a top. I was also there when he died, in Frankfurt.
If not for the Soviets, we would have also let the other monster out.
Very nice piano playing, but bizarre interpretation of the music.
Well, as you said, they are French, after all. A Stereo Review recommendation. I can still see the page. Now, I will have to look for Martha Argerich. There is always something.(Gilda Radner)
Trust me, Black folks are not, and were never, upset over P&B. On occasion, they feel the need to 'act' like they are upset.
Speer had an lQ of about 18O , right up with us . What Berlin Brigade did was rotate every Infantry Co . one Platoon a week. I just happen to be there . C/3/6th Infantry . Best unit I ever was in . Only one that ever had real discipline .
.My friends in the East Anglican Reg. told me the Russians didn’t hurt them but their food suck when the Soviets were on .Brits always had better Indtel .
One of Schubert’s (the other Schubert ☺️) last works and one of the the most charming chamber works in the literature. IMO, clarinet playing does not get better than this. Soprano Benita Valente is superb. Beautiful example of how to strike the right balance between “how are we doing” and “how am I doing. Definitive performance by most accounts:
From the Notes: "London at the end of the eighteenth century was indisputably the musical capital of Europe, Parisian musical life having collapsed in the wake of the French Revolution. Music publishing and instrument making were flourishing in London, and above all there was already an unusually well developed and diverse musical life --- public, open to everyone and governed by the rules of a free market."
I only am Schubert because of the first time I heard of this and needed something . While looking for that all I saw was R & R titles and thought these misguided fools need some class.
Wish I just chose Harry or Herman the German .
If you want a fabulous Schubert lieder outing this is the best I know . Brryn Terrful on DG 445 294-2GHHard to believe the Great Welchman could turn German but that fabulous voice can do anything .
I doubt if one can be found ,but who knows
rok . Would it be free trade if a firm was told what they could do or say by the Congress under threat of blackmail or punishment ?
Found a Terful jewel on You Tube ! https://youtu.be/Il-jv_7BLp0?t=2 Not even Bach can freeze me, literally , like Schubert can.Best thing I ever did was get a German girlfriend who could not speak English.Even if she was a b....h
I remember this scene in an episode or 'POIROT', everyone is dressed to the nines in this grand house to listen to some 400 pound babe sing 'Lieder'. Once she starts, everyone's eyes glazed over almost instantly. Trying, as discreetly as possible, to check their watches. How much longer can she possibly go on?
I do know he was slower that the Germans and the older I get the more I appreciate that in general .
Jack Brymer always had a place in my heart just because .I read his book on plane once , fun , even if I didn’t get it all.
Stolzman was good .Frost was here a lot with the SPCO , great when he wasn’t going crazy. My ALL time hero on the misery stick is Karl Leister with Karajan .He made zero mistakes and could change his tone about twice a second.When the players in the Berlin Phil are in awe ........But I have been told I have a German bias.
Elly Ameling had a truly gorgeous voice. I remember going to Edinburgh one festival to hear Bryn Terfel at The Usher Hall it was an absolutely first class night . The program was Winterise and Die Schone Mullerin .
Thanks for the clip. Lovely voice. More than I can say about the clarinetist; no poetry in his playing and hesitant phrasing. Unfortunately, for me, this makes the overall performance a case of “how am I doing”, but without “how are we doing”.
Obviously, we all appreciate different qualities in players. I hope you don’t mind some thoughts Re your list of clarinetists. For whatever it may be worth, there is practically universal agreement among players of the instrument in the following regards. In fairness, players of the instrument react to certain aspects of playing that may or may not be priorities for others.
Karl Leister. Very fine player and one of my favorites. If not for his questionable and sometimes imprecise intonation, it would be a toss up for me between he and Wright. Lovely tone and overall musicianship.
Martin Frost. Absolute phenom on the clarinet. Incredible technique and capable of doing things on the instrument previously thought impossible to execute. I think the jury is still out as to how much depth there is in performances of works that don’t require that kind of virtuosity.
Jack Brymer. Fine player, but nothing particularly distinctive about his playing.
Richard Stolzman. Certain charm to his playing, but his playing is thought to be somewhat crass with unusual use of vibrato and unrefined tone. Not well regarded among players.
Here is Leister on Der Hiirt in a fairly well balanced ensemble performance. Still, for me, not on the level of the Wright/Valente. Questionable pitch, but lovely tone.
Der Hirt auf dem Felsen, Op. 129, D. 965 · Anna Lucia Richter The clarinetist is not Leister tough....But he play well with the female voice...Not one beside the other...
frogman, you are a music maker and a upper level one at that. I’m just an old guy that has listened to a lot of music.I as much said my clarinet sucked , so Elly and Schubert is more than enough for me .I’m in 1% in love for Schubert and her.
Tone everyone can hear, only a star listener always hears pitch, someone like Jim . I only said Stolzman was good because he was American. I could take him or leave him , he was the star for years. My jury is in for Frost he plays like he wrote the music .
Had do, he knew how it really should be .
Jack is my uncle , at least I think he was.
I was always listening to Karl’s tone , he could give the conductor what he wanted with a blink of an eye.Makes me feel better than any other I have heard on his instrument Simple.
Thank you for your class . I truly appreciate them .
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
