Classical Music for Aficionados
A great masterpiece from a great master with about as energy as you could put on a score ! What’s not to like? I seldom listen to him only because of time , But always great when I do. Slav means "glory" more or less in Russian not Slavic . Imperial Russian Anthem is in the piece .Slave is one of the many French words brought into English.Still is except in Texas text books where GOP changed every word of Slave to "workers" . I’ve heard of the Hegel all right, was required doing graduate History at Munster University in Germany .Don’tremember much 50 years later.I I'm sure you would get it with a Google . (If your are not always tried like me). Hang in there buddy ,Cheers |
Schubert, since you know about all things German, I thought I would ask you about Hegel. It's for sure that's where you would have ran into Hegel. It only took me twenty years to understand what he was talking about, so it's not something we can discuss in a thread, but you answered my question and that's the end of Hegel. |
This exploration into Classical is turning out better than expected. So far I find that Debussy takes me back to a previous life. He takes me back to someplace I've never been before, consequently, that's the only explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea2WoUtbzuw&t=1346s |
Guess so. This is a piece of his that got me long ago, lyrics are taken from a Great American novel. https://youtu.be/Un7l-CxvdEg?t=1 "A Death in the Family" by James Agee. |
I have to agree with Schubert’s comments re Barber. If in strict keeping with the topic of the thread, the foremost American composer. I also agree that there is something wrong with the sound of the Dudamel performance. There is a lack of appropriate balance between the upper and lower strings; as if the lower strings were recorded more up close than the upper strings. This leads to a reduction of the appropriate relationship between the various voices, with celli and bassi being overly prominent relative to the upper strings; both spatially and volume wise. The orchestra sounds too “concentrated” spatially. Perhaps it is a function of mic placement or mic choice for the respective string sections. I suspect it is that, as well as an over aggressive desire on the part of Dudamel to bring forward the “inner voices”; to the extent that the leading voice almost gets lost at times. I can forgive the technical problems with the sound, but more importantly, there is a static quality to this interpretation of what, as rvpiano correctly points out, is something very beautiful. I prefer to hear more movement within each phrase and less overt “drama” from the crescendi and the length of the silences between phrases. For me, this performance, with a more old school recorded sound, gets the balances and pacing right; and the Philadelphia strings sound glorious: https://youtu.be/ThDIKvee_mY Btw, Re the comment by Inna about “too many instruments”. I understand the point, but while I don’t necessarily agree, it should be noted that this beautiful work is a version arranged for large string orchestra (by Barber) of the second movement of his String Quartet Op. 11. https://youtu.be/kxtMe9CPZ9M |
I love Barber piece.... It is difficult to embody so well a pure feeling....I listen my own heart here, it is more than listening only casual music.... Only the greatest geniuses in music succeeded doing that... Sometimes there is a tragic front side to pure beauty, it is like beauty walking and elevated to truth...Like Michelangelo Pieta.... It will be difficult to surpass the "spoken" articulation of the Ormandy orchestra like the flowing waving of the clothes fabric telling their own tale in the Pieta .... |
O-10 seeks drama? The entire piece (Pictures) is great and not too long. This performance is one of my favorites. Love the bass. The Russians always give the brass a little love. Great stuff, pre-Stalin of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kirSIsupt6o Cheers |
Rok, I've discovered some things that I like, but this is not my "universe"; I'm like a football player with cleats on a basketball court, or a basketball player on a football field. We created "Jazz For Aficionados", but there is no way I'm going back unless you got my back, and I know you know what I mean. |
To the best of my knowledge I don’t think the Vienna would put up with any Conductor going that far ! I have seen that in live concert. Not a few think they are the best orchestra in the world , they sure do.I don’t, but so close I would never argue about it . I may be dreaming but I feel at the opening bars you can see whether a band is going with a conductor or not . Look at the Munich Phil and Celibidache or Mazur with his Gewandhaus to see the I’m with you all the way. Which is why I was not happy when Mazur went to New York. My late wife and I had seen him a hundred times with his DDR Orchesta, 3 $ in Leipzig .Few know Americans could go around in East Germany no problem . This is my idea of can not be better , totally different and I weep when I hear this adagio ! https://youtu.be/GbtCChVk0lA?t=3 P.S. Whenever I see Ormandy I think, now there is a honest man . suble |
Orchestras can be ruthless with a conductor that they don’t like or respect. You are entirely correct. One can pick up on how the orchestra feels about a conductor simply by the way that they welcome the maestro when he walks out unto the stage; and the performance will reflect that. It can be obvious enthusiasm, or just obviously obligatory half smiles. Watch the speed and unanimity (or lack of) with which the players rise to their feet. It may be subtle, but always obvious. |
This is my idea of can not be better , totally different and I weep when I hear this adagio !WOW! i will go look for all Celidache set Barber +Shostakovtich... Staggering difference between these 2 marvellous interpretation... In one, Ormandy, my heart is feeling embedded in time, the tragedy is out there again filling me completely like water filled a cup...It is like re-living the event in this life, a living memory which accompanies me... In the other, Celibidache, the tragedy is there, but completely transcended, and the feeling is now a participating wave in eternity.... It is like living the event after our death revealing all truth about it.... These 2 are the best interpretation i listen to for this Barber masterpiece....Impossible to chose between these 2.... Thanks schubert for the discovery.... |
Frogman; PLEASE look at the Celibidache Op 11. The Munchner was always a decent orchestra . What he has done to them is unreal. Few Days ago I got a glance over the back of Bloomstead on a DVD . The players looked like dogs waiting for a bone . Well into his 90’s and still in demand ! I sat into a rehearsal about 30 years ago with him and the Radio Orch. in Berlin (one step behind the Phil) .He stood there and asked THEM what they thought for a half-hour ! |
Speaking of Bach , this is rather good for young students . https://youtu.be/PrIQbadXX74?t=1 Can't say which soloist is the best, both are great and it's a lot easier to get a excellent oboe than a strad . But I will anyway , that little oboe queen has the soul of a GREAT musician ! She already is one . Little known in US but Polish schools from k to Medical School are as good as any in Europe . And other places. |
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Sitting here with Barbers Violin Con.. , I am thinking what a terrible shame it is that we never asked him to give us a real National Anthem ,one of love and not war . https://youtu.be/CveX2LjVaw0?t=2 Op.11 is the de-facto one now in times of tragedy |
Any one with even slight interest in Modern Classical needs to go to this short lesson . https://youtu.be/WR2TiV6PxTc?t=2 |
Can’t think of a better Op.57. Appassionata, indeed. I welcome other opinions. https://youtu.be/ACB2a7dOHmU |
The latest, Greatest Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the History of the Whole World. If you disagree, see my guru. He lives in Brooklyn. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfnbe6JI6s Cheers |
The latest, Greatest Beethoven Piano Sonatas in the History of the Whole World. For sure Levit so good it is dont own the integrated phrasing of Moravec, making of some words an only one sentence... The notes must never succeed one another, but vertically must surge toward the transcendental meaning that will going down incarnating itself in the sound like the soul in a body ... Moravec get it for me.....All is done way before the first minute of playing... How is it possible for a human being to play piano at all? Probably only by forgetting completely how to play and only feel an emotion not through the fingers but in spite of them, or better, without them.... It is only my opinion, feel free to say your own..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ex7ZVaSVCE |
Excellent comments and excellent versions of this great work. Not to disagree with any of them since we all have our favorites and reasons why, but simply food for thought: While much is sometimes made of the sudden and dramatic dynamic contrasts being indicative or symbolic of the composer’s own personality, I think it is relevant to keep in mind that when Beethoven composed this work, no piano existed that would allow a player to take those contrasts to the extremes that some modern interpretations of the work take them. Beethoven’s instruments simply did not have the power of a modern Steinway or Bosendorfer. In that context, some of the choices made in some interpretations sometimes strike me as a bit of dynamic excess. |
Excellent point about the instruments of Beethoven's day. But thankful we have the modern instruments. Esp the brass. I can only imagine that modern ensembles sound much better, with the ability to more faithfully recreate the composer's intent, than those back in the day. The excess that bothers me, is the body language and facial expressions of some of the players / Conductors. Lenny and Ochida being prime examples. No one can feel that much passion, instantly on command. Cheers |
Lenny and Ochida being prime examples. No one can feel that much passion, instantly on command.Have you ever make love with someone you are confortable with? The public disapear for some artist which are only with themselves and their own "daimon", and the feeling which inhabit and haunted them for a work they feel already for a long time is not "on command"....It is like jazz players mimics and odd gestures singing behind and tapping feet.... |
Nobody can deny that Uchida is a great Artist , I have many of her Schubert CD’s and have heard her live Schubert . To my bystander ear Perahia does everything all at once , floats and is hyper-serious at the same time , a soulful poet . rv, it is the same with a soldier , after 10 thousand rounds go downrange without a miss , you just do it . This is the only op 57 I own , Its old and fast and I make no claims other than I love it . https://youtu.be/CcIdgp-vLgc?t=2 |
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I can not tell a lie, well not often. My old brain remembered I have a Op57 I haven’t heard in at least 10years . A wonderful Germanic ( he’s Austrian) jewel . My opinion of this guy is he doesn’t play LvB , he is him. https://youtu.be/-_DIl_vmj0M?t=14 |
Schubert, I own Schnabel’s The Complete Sonatas. If I’m not mistaken, his is the first ever release of the entire cycle. I like the recordings very much. Obviously, a brilliant musician. Actually, I find quiet a few similarities between his and Perahia’s Appassionata. Schnabel’s sense of the architecture of a work is pretty amazing. He did not exaggerate the dynamic contrasts and the climaxes occur in their proper musically logical place. IMO, many players treat the work as a Romantic work when it is squarely in the Classical tradition; hence the frequent, what I refer to as, “excess” of dynamic contrast. This, in spite of the liberties that he took by deviating from classic sonata form. Thanks for the reminder; it had been a while. |
Exactly what I thought .Years ago. I liked those " dynamic ’ moves etc,now I think they just get in the way. I had The Complete Sonatas but tend to gave a record away to young people just starting to try Classical . The 2 boxes nobody gets are the Beecham a Last 6 Mozart Symphonies/Royal Phil /odysey/and all Schubert Piano Sonatas /Willhelm Kempff./DG We both know that and most don’t that a German is best with Germanic , etc, etc. To my hears the most important case is Czech .Any Czech PO / Supraphone I see, I buy, knowing all is well, if you’ve not been to Prague go,.If ever possible again that is . |
