Classical Music for Aficionados

It matters what you mean by destroyed. If you mean popularity, I’d say if anything there seems to be an uptick in that due to orchestras finally coming to their senses and playing more pop music like movie scores. If you mean the craft of making new classical/orchestral music, that was ruined in the middle of the 20th century with the advent of atonal music (which also destroyed jazz as well). I’m afraid we’ll have lost at least 2 generations to atonal music due to professors in colleges over emphasizing it currently. A bigger issue, tbh, is the way Hans Zimmer has destroyed movie music, which has enjoyed 80 years of success. 
So if you mean popularity, then all is as well as could be given classical will never become “pop” again. If you mean the music being written today sucks, then blame 20th century composers for a shift to atonality which was never going to be popular and drove the most talented composers away. 

Interesting piece by John Helmer on popularity of classical music in Russia, on radio and online.  Helmer is longest serving english speaking correspondentin Russia, originally from Australia, but also lived in USA.  He usually writes about politics and economic/business.
http://johnhelmer.net/radio-orfei-can-still-pull-the-state-budget-strings-but-can-it-stream-to-save-...

Just as the novel went all the way to Finnegans Wake and then came back to chronologically organized coherent narrative, so I think we're well back from the atonal period.  Look at the popularity of Arvo Part or Goreki.  My own favorite from the youngest generation is Dobrinka Tabakova.  Check out her album String Paths on ECM.

Dohnanyi PC #1 #2.  Hadn't listened in eons.  Quite impressive.  

We’ve come back but the damage was done. And the music of today isn’t built on the epitome and peak of orchestra with early 20th century romantic music. The music of Arvo Part is no more approachable than the trash being spewed by John Cage or the even worse, Philip Glass. Even more respected composers like Higdon aren’t going to gain much long term traction. I suspect the symphony format died with Shostakovich. The future of the symphony is movie music (which of course Hans Zimmer has tried his best to destroy, but there are still some wonderful composers in that space).

Long ago I loved symphony orchestras, heard Philadelphia under Ormany, BSO under Leinsdorf, etc.  But I seldom listen to orchestras today, not even recordings.  It is just too much for me.Maybe it is my age, maybe that I have not lived in a city for many years, so my life is quieter.  I much prefer sonatas, solos, occasionally a duet, trio or quartet.  More musicians do not increase my enjoyment/appreciation.  And "modern" music does not reach me.

As for rock n roll, I still love it, but not often.  New Years Eve comes but once a year.
I still listen to some folk/pop, live is very good. Recordings are mostly to learn new songs to play. 

I do love Hawaiian slack key, but have stopped trying to play it since my teacher died.

If I could actually play classical music, that would be my preference.

Because really few systems + rooms can truly handle properly a full-scale symphony orchestra in flat-out hue and cry, listening to chamber music in the home is often an all-round more satisfying experience.

I couldn't agree more @twoleftears that rooms and systems cannot handle full scale symphony orchestras in things like Mahler Symphonies and so forth. I now only do my listening on headphones because I became delusioned years ago with trying to chase that elusive magic system because it just doesn't exist. I also listen only to solo piano music and chamber music now with the odd piano concerto thrown in.  I used to go to loads of full classical concerts and the BBC were there to record them for later broadcast. Now I do think the BBC are wonderful at broadcasting classical music and for every concert and every broadcast later they were a poor representation and it wasn't the BBC to blame but again we can't expect hi fi equiptment to get it right in those circustances.

Because really few systems + rooms can truly handle properly a full-scale symphony orchestra in flat-out hue and cry, listening to chamber music in the home is often an all-round more satisfying experience.

This is true. But I've recently been using small monitor speakers in near field (1m) with a powered subwoofer, and this comes closer to full orchestra representation than my large system in the same large room.

I had quite forgotten that Respighi composed a piano concerto.  A pleasant rediscovery.

jim204 & two left ears, I agree with you both on a high ends systems inability to reproduce anything close to real over a home system. For me though a modest system and a good recording can serve well in bringing me me into the music itself . I just don’t try to bring down the house.

Re using headphone as a source. FWIW I recently put together a separate, dedicated, headphone system - I’m just amazed at the clarity this can provide sans all of the audiophile stuff about imaging, etc. Its just about clarity and tone.

FWIW I too have found that I now prefer music for solo piano and chamber music. Especially the former. Just don’t need all of the thunder and lightning to get my attention. Mahler is just dying on my shelves now, but Sibelius comes to visit now and again. Not really true, I just play orchestral as background music for reading.

Len, get you on jean Redpath . Many years ago I attended a concert in Ayr Town Hall and the great and the good of all things Burns were there but it was Jean Redpath who stole the shoe. She sang my Love is like a Red Red Rose, not a dry eye in the house. Funnily enough the man who was most associated with that song Kenneth McKellar was also there but he couldn't sing it any more sice his wife passed.

Another blast from the past, Hamilton Harty piano concerto.  The Chandos recording is really excellent, very clear, good balance between soloist and orchestra, and a nice distant perspective to the whole thing, which for me adds to the (relative) realism of the thing. 

Rather than start a brand new discussion, I thought I'd ask the classical aficionados here to garner their knowledge and educated guesses.

If I wanted to get recordings of every classical piece ever recorded (not written, but recorded) without duplicates (e.g. just one recording of Beethoven's 5th, one recording of Bach's cello suites), about how many CDs would it take?  For simplicity, let's limit it to western classical music, from early music to contemporary.  According to the Bach 333 project, it took 225 CDs to present every piece composed by Bach (but including some duplicate recordings of the same piece).  If someone as prolific as Bach can be covered in ~200 CDs, I'd think that most can be covered in far less.

Would the average output of a composer be something like 50 CDs?  How many classical music composers have there been who have had their music recorded?  10,000, 20,000, 50,000?

For the sake of agument, let's say 20,000; then 20,000 x 50CDs = 1,000,000.

Do you think 1,000,000 CDs would be enough to have a complete set of every piece of classical music ever recorded?  Am I grossly underestimating or overestimating?

I apologize for intruding with a non-music post, but I've always been curious about this.

Also, does anyone have a link to a website that might have information related to questions like this?

@skim1124     I hope you realise that this being a thread on all things recorded classical music that none of the contributers here can agree on which CD's to buy in the first place. As an example say you wanted to get a Sibelius Symphony Cycle and you were only limited to one, do you go for a historical one with lesser quality of sound or one of the myriad ones with first class sound but maybe not the visceral excitement of the historical ones. I wish you well in your quest.

Just buy BIS recording of anything and ESPECIALLY any thing from Nordic Lands !
I do believe that I have never run across any serious listener that did not start
with symphonic and eventually wandered into chamber music , save one, myself .

I think my taste is the better for it , but then I've never been anyone else,  so I can't run an experiment .

@jim204 My question isn't about which single version of a piece to get (quality).  I just want to know the quantity of CDs a complete collection would require.  It's not an actual quest since I'd never have the time or the money to be able to actually buy/download such a collection, but I'm simply curious about the number.  Hypothetically, someone would have the funds/time/storage space to have a complete collection and be able to play a recording of any piece of classical music ever composed (if it'd been recorded).

@skim1124    I'm sorry if I misunderstood you but I shall give you one to get on with , Liszt Complete Piano Music  101 discs by Lesley Howard. Although I have this collection I only dip into it if I read about someone playing something obscure of Liszt's. Again apologies.

I did the exact number last night , As of Jan.1 2019 it is two million , seven hundred thousand and seventeen .

Jim
I have that Lesley Howard collection, quite remarkable.I have read that Howard initially planned for 90 discs, and as the years of the project went by, more Liszt was discovered, and the project had to be expanded, ultimately taking 13 years.
Of course some of it is "just transcriptions".
I like Howard a lot, "perseverance furthers".

For those who fear the death of classical music, please watch this.
Eva Gevorgyan, age 15, plays Rachmaninov 3d Concerto at the 2019 Cliburn International Junior Piano Competition.
Skip the video to 36:30 where she makes her entrance.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=65753.msg693511#new

pardon me, I think that was Rachmaninov Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini.

 It was Shaun Hern Lee age 16 from Australia who played Rach3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8qHMNTjm4g

No shortage of players , average age of audiences 70+ ..

For lack of room, and time left on earth , I use what one could call baseball parlance in buying LP’s which I prefer over CD’s .
I look for a triple, by which I mean the work is the composers best(or close to it) and, the conductor and orchestra are in their prime .
One example is Walton’s 1st Symphony with Previn and the LSO . One of the greatest recordings ever made.I assume most on here are aware of this but if brings it to just one more will be a good day’s work .


Another is the great Vaughn Williams outing of the "A London Symphony" bySir John Barbirolle with his Halle Orchestra . Vanguard SRV-134.A caveat is Williams made so many masterworks you could argue all week as to his best .Her did however let it be known this was his favorite symphony .

My favorite symphony of Vaughan-Williams as well.  There’s a great LP of it with Vernon Handley on the Classics for Pleasure label.

On a different subject, I’m finally discovering the true treasure of streaming on IDAGIO. I’m finding whole new areas of enjoyment, such as Baroque opera.
One can get into a rut of listening to the familiar.  What a pleasure to serendipitously discover new masterworks.
Also, the sound quality is first rate.

Does IDAGIO have much early music ?I guess I’m in a rut but as Brahms op.115 in there with me I don’t mind .
Over the decades as they in reference to his music as "autumnal", I figured they were not talking about leaves .At 80+ I can tell you his music is comfort food to the elderly , as Claude Rostand put it , "a portrayal of resignation , melodiously enveloped in tenderness" .I still think that for pure intellect no composer was his better .


I have heard the Hadley and yes it is very good indeed . But Barbirolli had his Halle as sharp as the best German knife .

IDAGIO does have a good amount of early music.

The first movement of op. 115 is as close to heaven as you can get.

btw, I turn 80 next month.

No wonder you are so wise !I might check it out then , a lot of the best of early music is hard to find and expensive when one does .
I often wonder if Brahms music was better or worse  given that he had severe what we now call PTST .How great it is that he is buried 10 feet away from Schubert in  Vienna .
The Viennese knew that was as it should be .

rv, I see IDAGIO is out of my favorite place on the planet , Berlin ,so that's an automatic  sell right there !
What sort of device(s) would you recommend?

Schubert,

I use an Arcam streamer.  It hooks up with my DAC.
Works very well for me..

Len  a wee bit ago you were talking of Previn well can I recommend another disc of Previn's it's Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet , an absoloute belter I couldn't recommend it enough.

And how laddy , I had that and loved It , victim of my many moves .
All those decades behind us and Previn still has the very best recordings of many of the best British composers ! Perfect example of a conductor and an orchestra both at their zenith . I’ll Amazon it this day .


Scotland Forever .
 P.S,  Done. All 3 new vinyl  records at 38$ , A bargain . My Gorbals gran told me "there is nay Scot who isn't penny wise and pound  foolish" .

Your Granny couldn't have been more right Len. I have been on Idagio 
and have found it there and have to say it is just as good as I remember and it is the whole shebang and not just a conductors mix. The sound quality is stunning and quite up to todays if you don't mind some tape hiss.

Freeeedom !!!!!     All the best Jim.

@phomchick     I meant to reply to you on your last post b I'm afraid I got distracted . I too may years ago used to listen to a nearfield configuration wit a pair of Rogers LS3/5a with a hugh Rel sub. I used to get some awesome sound from it with the Rogers producing much more volume than the Quad 57 Electrostats I had downstairs ( Mahler's Second symphony was awesome from that setup). What made me comment was I have just seen an advert for a pair of original Roger's for the eye watering price of £6,500 . Now I'm one for nostalgia but those speakers in the day were just short of £5oo.oo so if someone buy's those they have more money than sense.

I do the same with a pr. of Totem Signature 1 stand mounts and a Gallo cylindrical sub which is both fast and unobtrusive .
The best thing I did was put the speakers on Target stands with Herbie’s fat dots under them and 40 lbs of a mix of lead and fine sand in each .The detail is unreal !Far better than any of BBC midgets and I’ve had most of them  over the years .Driven by a amp that will do 450 watts into the Totems , not to play loud but to not clip on the micro- peaks that a symphony generates and make strings harsh , if the audio guy hasn’t already . Sit 4.5 feet away .


jim , may I be so bold as to ask if you went to Glasgow Uni ?

Hi Len , No I'm afraid I didn't have any university schooling but as we called it the university of hard knocks. all my training in Photography and computing was at adult uni courses which I did while in a job which by the wayI hated. I was apprenticed to be a gardener from a pal of my fathers and in those days you just did as you were told and kept your mouth shut. Happily when I got married and into a place of my own I studied Photography and much later I studied and gained a degree in computer repair . I was glad I did those studies as I could then give my father a two fingered salute as none of my family gained a degree in anything except me. The Uni I gained the degree from was Stow College which is in the middle of Glasgow. I can though boast that my daughter did much better than me as she gained a Masters with Honours in politics at St. Andrews University.

Well , you have a better command of the English tongue than any person
I ever met who did not .I have a strong hunch you daughter did so well because she is your daughter.


I asked because I was accepted as an undergrad at Glasgow after being  a squady for 14 long years . Wanted to live in Scotland my entire life but the
money aspect ruled Glasgow Uni out .

Years before in Berlin we had a 6 month exchange program of NCO’s with the East Anglican Regiment . I got a "glowing" report of my soldiery skills from my Major and hopped over to Norwich to the Regiment Recruiting Office, but no your parents had to have a British Passport .The Recruiting Sgt. said we have men from every miserable colony but I can’t take a trained soldier with 3 Scottish grandparents !
Oh well , the University of Wisconsin is rated higher than Glasgow on the Times 100 anyway .
’

Well Len I'm sure The University of Wisconsin was glad to have you as you too seem a very intelligent and worldly chap. Just earlier tonight I was copying some Scottish stuff for my daughter to put on her little personal MP3 player and one of the things was The Corries Strings and Things. This is a very iconic set of recordings and it is showing it's age now but the songs still stir the heart. Two of my favourites from it are Garten Mother's Lulaby and Jock O' Hazeldean and I have never heard those songs bettered by anyone. My wife and I used to go to the Ayr Town Hall every December to see The Corries and we just loved them. The collection of instruments the two of them had was mind blowing and they didn't just doole with them they really could play them and Roy Williamson actually built a lot of them. It was a really sad day for folk music when Williamson died of a brain tumor. Ronnie Brown the other member of the duo just couldn't sing after that which was sad as he had a lovelly tenor voice.

Jeremy,   I am just now getting a chance to listen to the recording of the sixteen year old doing the Paganinni Rhapsody. After a shaky start she has settled down and is really playing the piece for all she's worth. I have to say it is one of my favourite pieces for piano and orchestra and people I have seen live playing it reads like a "who's who" . Vying for top place were an electrifying Ashkenazy, A very skilled Pletnev and in the slightly lower ranks, Osborne,Hough,Lill and Beresovsky.

jim I’ll check the Corries , never heard them .Zenith of my Scottish music was I got to eat dinner across from Andy Steward after a solo concert in Cornwall , Ontario .
Was a very nice and humble guy , we discussed how rotten it was that a Scottish working man could nae fish a Scottish river because some Englishman had the sole rights to . A soft spoken but passionate man .
Thanks for the kind words . I know I ’m not dumb but no more more intelligent than your self . I have many Asian friends and a few Jewish ones , they know the home truth that you either do your home work or
you don’t . You can’t live long enough to know what is and is not without reading .
I don't listen to much Gallic music because it  makes me sad .

Yes Len please do check out the Corries  as you being an adopted Scot they should stir your heart strings . Roy Williamson from the duo actually wrote Flower of Scotland which has become our now adopted national anthem overtaking Scot W'a Hae written by Burns. Still can't sing them without floods of tears. Did you know that your Declaration of Independence was actually written with our Declaration of Arbroath in mind which was set out by Robert the Bruce in 1320 and I have seen the only copy now in existance in The Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh who put it on display for a couple of days in 2014 to celebrate the 700th anniversary of The Battle of Bannockburn which gave us freedom from Englsh tyrrany.Now onto something completely different and this time music as I am really sorry to be taking over the discussion . Has anyone heard the new recording of Beethoven's Septet in E flat Major Op.20 by The OSM Chamber Soloists. It is seriously good and Len and RV it is on the Idagio site with superb sound quallity, just watch the volume as like all rcordings that have French Horns and bassoons in them they do have to be rained in. You guys have a happy and music filled weekend, Jim.

Another recording to suggest to you is a Scriabin disc by Yevgeny Sudbin on the Bis label. It has some of his early stuff and some when he was experimenting with tonallity but thank goodness not atonallty. It also has my all time fovourite Scriabin piece the Sonata Fantasie No2 in G sharp minor Op.19. It has a very dreamy haunting first movement and then all hell breaks loose in the final movement. Have to say that of the new Russian influences pianists I think in my mind anyway he is the best of the lot but with the exception of Volodos . He certainly has a wonderful way with Scriabin and certainly I think better than Hamelin.

Aye, Scot W’a Hare is a battle cry , as a pacifist I’m agan it, but as an old squady the war horse in me paws the ground .
Flower of Scotland is a better choice . I knew that are parts of Arbroath in it .The US system in general is a bunch of slave owners sacred that capitalism was replacing the system they wanted, mercantillism .The key to understanding the US is that its the not the first new country but the last old one

.jim, nobody can take over the discussion , you have a lot to say and everything is related to everything else as any Native American can tell you . And reading anything is optional .
As to IDAGIO, I had my desktop decoded few weeks ago , it eats cookies and shows I live in Miami over a bullet proof connection .
This may be why I find the idagio sound is like good players playing in a room with no air in it . Also finds that its cookies are lunch in the middle of a piece .
Would an plain Apple laptop help or not? Could be I’m just addicted to vinyl as well .

Try encoded .

Schubert,

 I run IDAGIO from an iPad with sensational sound.
You certainly can run it through a laptop.

Are you using a good DAC?

Jim,

I listened to both of your recommendations.
The Beethoven is a delightful taste of Viennese Classicism.
The Scriabin is wonderful.  It looks back to Chopin and forward to Rachmaninoff.
Thank you.