My NuForce Stereo 8.5V3 has for now almost 3 years been the best poweramp I've ever had; it simply let's the music shine through in its different palettes and nuances with subtleties and power to spare(via speakers with 94dB sensitivity), hereby getting out of the way very effectively as a less interfering measure between the music and my ears/mind. Maybe it would seem presumptuous or even trite to claim this degree of sonic neutrality instead of staying with the end result of the sound, if you will, as a subjective preference of mine, but I believe my experience and observative nature to be sufficient in claiming 'it'(i.e.: a certain degree of neutrality). To me at least this trait is very important being that my musical taste spans almost everything, and moreover I treasure the sonic hallmarks of speed/timing, an honestly revealing capability, and an unfettered quality at higher volumes - not that I'm an outright "play loud-Joe." All of this is encompassed in named NuForce poweramp as "features" that are distinctive, although they're identified, as being nonrestrictive and "incognito." I can't for the world imagine why many of the so-called 'audiophiles' wouldn't appreciate these qualities, but then again - that may just be me being overly projective on sonic aspects I believe of importance...
NuForce may not be representative of Class D amps in general, but they're still considered such, and therefore the general slaying a la "Class D sucks" will have to account for them being a possible exception - if that's the case, and if it's not simply an ill-supported grudge against "this new devilry." I don't buy the love for the typical Class A/B or A, or even tube-based amps, in any outright fashion, nor do I hold them in particular low esteem. If anything though I'd go so far to say most of the Class A/B, A and tube-based amps I've heard carry a higher, and more intrusive sonic character than what I'm hearing through the NuForce amps(8.5V3 and 9V3 SE mono's). Whether this is a reflection of the amplifying principle at hand or simply a design/sound philosophy within the same remains dubious to me, but I expect the former more than the latter.
To Maxitonus I am spanish , living in Barcelona. I am very interested in your experience with Classdaudio. I was thinking of buying the Ncore kit from Hypex when I read your comments on the SDS 470C ready made amplifier. Did you have the opportunity to compare to any Hypex amp? I bought many years ago teh Flying Mole amps for fun, using Spectral gear as the big system. Recently I sold everything and had to use back the Flying Mole class D amps and I was surpised how good they sound. I am specialy interested in teh cable combination you have gathered that best suits the amp. Thanks in advance À bientôt! Joaquin
Vhiner, I know of someone that is building NC 1200 mono blocks and his price will be very reasonable for the initial run. It would be more then an NC 400 but not by a lot. If you are interested let me know and we will work out contact info.
Fiddler -- thanks for the link to that chassis, which is very handsome. Did you drill the required holes yourself or have someone do it for you? (I'm a newbie at DIY, don't have a drill press, and am trying to decide if I want to take this on myself or hand it over.)
To Fiddler: Thank you very much for the info. I am confused a bit as I don't know to what atttribute sound improvments you described:
a) NCore itself b) Balanced Configuration
I heard similarly descrubing i.e warmth, details, bass tightness abd richness etc improvments but at least 200% more when I bought 2nd Spectron amp and converted both from single ended stereo to balanced monoblocks (one channel caries "plus" signal and another channel "minus" signal; both caried to speakers where they subtract each other and thus cancel distortions)...
May be NCore module now available in balanced confifuration e.g. balanced differential or you bought simple twice more modules to run them in pure balanced mode as Spectron does? Kindly clarify
Fiddler, I had a chance to hear the Ncore in my system and I use the PS Audio setup like you. I agree with you on how well they sound. I have a friend who is looking to build a pair of Ncore and he was considering using the Cardas Patented binding posts but he had concerns that with heavy speaker wire and/or spades there might not be enough room to fit properly. Seeing how you have used it before how do you rate it.
Dob, I just finished my NCores yesterday. They are clearly better than my UCD400 monoblocks and I loved my UCD400s.
The NCores are more transparent, bass is tighter and there is simply more information presented. Without a doubt instruments and voices are more nuanced and the soundstage appears more defined. In complex passages everything remains sorted our, not that it was congested with the UCDs, but the NCores are simply better.
I was afraid they were going to be analytical or sterile based on some reports I read, but not in my system. I built my UCDs unbalanced and the NCores balanced. My front-end is the PS Audio PerfectWave combo with the upgraded DAC so balanced seemed like the obvious choice.
I did use upgraded Furutech XLR and IEC parts, Cardas Patented binding posts and Neotech wire for my internal speaker connections. But I used the same combo in the UCD400s. The only difference in my setup is the NCores and a balanced configuration.
If I had to say how much better I think the NCores are using a percentage, I would just take a stab at it by saying the NCores are at least 20-30% better except the soundstage. My UCDs threw a huge soundstage and the NCores are at least even, just more defined and nuanced.
I know my UCDs improved over time and if the NCores improve they will exceed the UCDs by a rather large margin.
Over on Audio Circle there are many threads abut Ncore amps. Everybody so far who has listened to them has either ordered or will order the modules in the future. It's a great group of DIY'ers and music Nthusiasts.
I'm getting the NCores in the next batch, which I think shipped this week, then have to tackle the assembly. Doing this strictly on the basis of geek buzz as i have not heard them.
I received my NCores in the first batch, but I just haven't put them together yet. I have been running UCD400HG with HxR for 2 or 3 years. They are fabulous and I expect the NCores will be considerably better based on what I have read.
They have complete kits of the UCDs but as for the nCores, Bruno is teaming up with Jan-Peter for this: http://www.mola-mola.nl/. As for the price, if Bruno wants to keep slaying the market, it might be within reach.
Getting back to the UCDs, they've supposedly been upgraded as well to meet 3 of the 4 criteria for the nCores. http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf The newer UCDs are an improvement over the 2001 design.
nCores! They've got my blood up, and I've been content for so long. I've come close to putting my name on the list three times now. The thought of gathering what few parts needed to assemble them is turning me off. Then the 6Moons review, those little prototypes look (as my Son would say) DIRTY!
So I've stayed away for a month hoping they'd offer a complete kit.
Fiddler, I seem to remember you were listening to some switchers before the UCD's? Pop a picture and I'll send you a canoli.
I was recently putting together my system and couldn't decide between two used amps: Wyred 4 Sound ST500 and Conrad Johnson MF2500. They were both used and almost the same price, so I bought both in my own little "shootout". The sound of the two was very close in the short 3 days I compared the two. I sold the Conrad Johnson in the end because it was so big and didn't fit into the cabinet my wife wanted to buy. The Wyred 4 Sound amp also didn't have the hum that the Conrad Johnson had, especially when using the balanced interconnects.
I can understand the draw to traditional amps. I really liked the big, solid SS amps and I really felt that it was like owning a big mercedes compared to a VW. In the end I could not get over the lack of difference in the sound. Some of it could be chalked up to using balanced cables with the W4S, I suppose. It was not a hard choice to make.
H20 Audio's latest iteration of amps are pretty spiffy. The man has finally begun to mix artisan flavor in with solid engineering - and the results "speak" for themselves. You'll find no 10lb light weights in his lineup - and I like that.
I am a french audiophile,dedicated to obtaining the closest possible sound to the sound in concert. I listen to Duntech Prince speakers,throught tubed amps, my last one is a very good Ayon Triton II one.
What a surprise when i listened to the classdaudio amp, type sds470 i bought in august for my daughter...!!!! This amp is incredible, since instead of giving a "good honest sound" as i anticipated,it gives a high end sound,tube like,with an extreme transparency,black silence,and -you can believe me-..when golden eared friends are coming at home,they cannot even imagine that the sound is coming from a small amp for DIYers which sales price is only $590 !!!
This amp is may be better than icepower and hypex ones,i have particularly noticed that when using interconnects and cables with very low capacitance and not shielded ,the high frequencies are extremely good and not attenuated at all, cymbal strokes fr example..no defect.
I suggest some of you to test this small US amp,which cost is lower than a set of power tubes for my Ayon..!
It is difficult to evolve a system with proper synergy (I admit a term used too often). However, the room-source-preamp-amp-speaker combination is critical. I found that the Wyred4sound Class D amps when paired with my Modwright preamp works well. I have Von Schweikert speakers, not planars. It is a modest system. It works for me. Unfortunately you will have to try out different combinations until you find the right one, for you. I can only recommend Class D as heard in my system and in my room. Welcome to Audiogon, Nordic587. Post away!
12-17-11: Wolf_garcia It is important to carefully research any question before posting it to this forum as many here live on the edge of emotional sanity, and asking a seemingly uninformed or naive question can push some members into a frenzied and uncontrollable episode of sweaty manic responding creating posts written in a spirit of self righteous indignation crammed with every scrap of vitriol laden minutia their frazzled brains can summon to the page. Nobody needs that. Wolf_garcia (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Amen to that, as has been shown by my thread on >speaker cable vibration. You would have thought I started a thread on the merits of golden parachutes the way the Occupiers moved in.
12-17-11: Rok2id You would think that audio enthusiasts would welcome the chance to talk about , explain or weigh in on any question no matter how simple or naive. Strange behavior from hobbyists. But Wolf explained it perfectly. I don't ask anymore. Rok2id (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Rok2id, I seem to recall you were 'irritated' that I had discovered and posted about music-borne vibrations in speaker cables. I swore that day to be sensitive to you with any future posts. But you've obviously turned over a new leaf. I'm touched. Misty, actually.
To the OP - no shortage of d-bags on this forum. And we wonder why "audiophilia" isn't accessible to more people. Some people here wouldn't know how to lighten up if they took an enema full of helium.
I think the work Henry Ho of H2O audio is doing with ICE amps and massive analog power supplies sounds very very good. A few of our local members have had the pleasure of hearing his amps in my system a couple of different times (with tube pre) and they sounded splendid. FWIW
Stringreen, I have owned 2 of the 3 you mentioned and if I understand you to mean that Class D can't compete with them, I would have to respectfully disagree. IMHO, of course. Believe me, if my current amps couldn't cut it, I would do what I have done countless times in the past - spend gobs of money chasing my Holy Grail. I'm not saying the UCD HG with H x R are the Holy Grail, but I will say I have enjoyed them as much as anything I have owned.
And If I am not mistaken, the Kharma amp that someone referenced here as being exceptional uses the Hypex UCD modules, albeit with a tremendous markup,
If I completely misinterpreted your comments, my apologies in advance.
You would think that audio enthusiasts would welcome the chance to talk about , explain or weigh in on any question no matter how simple or naive. Strange behavior from hobbyists. But Wolf explained it perfectly. I don't ask anymore.
Nordic587 - Like any other class of amplifiers there are better and worse class D amps while everything depends on system synergy. My small class D amp is good for the price but in different price range you'll find many great class D amps like mentioned Kharma. Class D is this strange thing that sound at the same time great to some people and horrible to others. One limitation of class D is bandwidth related to switching frequency that is limited by speed of available Mosfets. 65kHz bandwidth of my amplifier causes about 20deg phase shift at 20kHz and therefore improper (shift) summing of harmonics. You can still find much higher bandwidth in some other class D amps like Spectron Musician III.
Class D used to be very primitive sawtooth modulator that converted voltage level to duty cycle (and therefore average value after filtering) with very limited bandwidth. Todays class D is much more sophisticated and resembles high power Delta-Sigma A/D converter byproduct. Principle of operation is well known and accepted (SACD is exactly the same thing - recorded PWM that just needs filtering) but implementation is constantly improving. I would rather live with existing limitations instead of TIM distortion (and therefor bright odd harmonic) produced by many class AB amps.
I meant Thanks to Wolf_garcia and Vhiner. I will have to look up "good manners" in Audiogon's rules for use. No, better yet, I will contact the Audiogon Admin and ask under what if any circumstances it is permissible to ask questions if the answers to said posting are addressed anywhere else in the archives of Audiogon's entire history of subject matter on the issue of audio. Hmmm... don't seem to recall reading that restriction when I signed up. I will continue to post queries at will. To those who wish to control others, I am not fair game.
I just typed "class D" into search engine and got 300 threads in response. It is a very good tool for novice. It is not mandatory but rather good manners.
If you look up the word rudeness in any dictionary you will not see any coreallary to "lack of awareness" or "naïveté ". A little too much time spent alone in the man cave, perhaps?
If we do not treat newcomers with helpful, patient kindness, this hobby deserves to die anyway.
It is important to carefully research any question before posting it to this forum as many here live on the edge of emotional sanity, and asking a seemingly uninformed or naive question can push some members into a frenzied and uncontrollable episode of sweaty manic responding creating posts written in a spirit of self righteous indignation crammed with every scrap of vitriol laden minutia their frazzled brains can summon to the page. Nobody needs that.
Unsound: I wasn't aware that Audigon requires the step you mentioned in your "response" before posting. Didn't see it in the rules. I appreciate the intelligence and helpfulness of other responders. Those seem to embody the spirit of Audiogon.
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