Chord M-Scaler and Should I Want One?

Here is the link to the Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated review where the reviewer describes his experience of how the Chord M-Scaler adds clarity focus and drive to the Gryphon DAC module’s more “live and energetic” presentation (which I love, but more clarity and focus and drive sounds good too).

Not seriously looking at going out and buying an M-Scaler immediately as I’m currently enjoying my recent upgrades, but I’m still curious after reading that review that I linked. And if I see a good deal on a well-cared for used one from a trustworthy seller, I might spring for one opportunistically.

I forgot to mention: I primarily listen to streamed tracks from Tidal HiFi, using Roon with my Innuos streamer. So that may play a part in whether an M-Scaler would make sense in my system?

I have the M-Scalar and use it with my Hugo TT2. With Chord’s included cables I didn’t really like the M-Scaler, but after adding two BNC Silver Dragon cables I noticed a significant improvement. I was using AQ Cinnamon Coax with BNC adapters each end before that. It looks like the Diablo 300 has BNC SPDIF inputs, so that could work well for you with your AQ Diamond into the M-Scaler. 

@rockrider, yes I was looking at using ONE of the Diablo’s SPDIF inputs, which I understand will work and improve things but it won’t upsample to the extent that it would with the dual BNC outputs used by Chord. The Diablo DAC has two SPDIF inputs but they are each for different input channels.  Given your experience I suppose it would be necessary to also use a premium SPDIF cable to get good results (sigh, cables!)

I see that Amir at Audiosciencereview has pooped all over the M-Scaler. Which is a pretty good indicator that it may be actually quite good!

If I were a HiFi product manufacturer I would list Audiosciencereview’s quote of “I cannot recommend this product!” As an endorsement of the product along with all the other positive review quotes! LOL, okay enough…..

Seriously though I think there’s enough positive consensus from reviewers and owners to suggest this piece offers some benefit.

I also see that this unit offers more “clarity” in many cases.  With my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and the PhoenixUSB reclocker, along with my Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables and B&W 802’s, my levels of clarity I believe are already quite high.  So I do wonder in my case if they M-Scaler could actually overdo the clarity in my system.

I wouldn’t say the M-Scaler is about clarity. It’s more about weight, balance and a certain relaxed naturalness. 

I wouldn’t say the M-Scaler is about clarity. It’s more about weight, balance and a certain relaxed naturalness. 

i agree with this... with the right accompanying dac (in my case the hugo tt2 or an older musical fidelity trivista), it is about a sense of ease and naturalness, a richness of tone added to the sound.... in effect, more analog sounding less digital, as if the bits are glued together more nicely

Okay, you have my attention lol….   I don’t think those are areas you can have too much of.  Thanks for correcting my inaccurate perception of what this unit does (understanding that it would be different and likely with lesser of a benefit in my case with the degree of upsampling capped using the SPDIF output to my Gryphon DAC).

To me, these sonic traits sound similar to my experience when adding the Innuos PhoenixNET network isolator.  Smoother, deeper, more natural.  The PhoenixUSB reclocker added clarity and precision, and the network isolator made sure that things continued to sound natural.  
 

@jjss49 , I see you also have the Weiss 501 DAC, which I hear is warmer leaning (I also hear that it is superb).  My Gryphon DAC module is also warmer leaning.  Not sure if it’s possible to set up the Weiss as a DAC only with an external USB input, but if so, have you tried it with the M-Scaler?  Have you heard the M-Scaler with DACs where it didn’t work so well?

I have the Chord Dave.  I purchased the M-scaler expecting less improvement with their top of the line dac but I still didn't care for it.  I found the best setting was on the pass thru setting so I took it out of the system.  I plan to put it back in, it is still sitting there, but haven't gotten around to it.  So I wouldn't call my testing complete.  The better your DAC, the less upscaling will help you.  my 2 cents.

@nyev

i have not tried plugging the m scaler into the weiss

reason being daniel weiss states that the 501 does internal clocking and upscaling input signals at 195 khz -- which was chosen by them as what they felt optimized the sound, so in effect, the weiss (like many better dacs) does internal upscaling to enable what they feel is the most ideal reconstruction filtering of the signal in the conversion process - as you probably know, the upsampling allows for the final filters to work ideally so one should be optimized to the other in the design process

maybe one rainy day this winter when i am very bored i may well try feeding the weiss with the scaler

Makes sense that the best DACs already do the upsampling. Would be interesting to compare a setup like a one-box Weiss DAC with Roon solution, vs my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and the Phoenix reclocker (which sounds great to me).  If it compared, a Weiss could replace three boxes (including M-Scaler), corresponding cables, and eliminate the need for the DAC module.  

I don't often put much credence in Amir, but he found there was no benefit to upscaling.

I don't often put much credence in Amir, but he found there was no benefit to upscaling.

well that settles it, right?  🤣

You will find this interview informative, they discuss the m-scaler and what it actually does to the sound extensively - https://youtu.be/TknWME93SgE

Includes how to tell which cables are best.

I have a similar setup but with a Dave as the final part of the chain.  The M scaler will add something more, no doubt.  Will the uplift be worth it for the money though?  Possibly!  Try and get one to demo in your system.

One thing I can wholeheartedly recommend for next to no money though is the Fo.Q tape applied to the capacitors in the Zenith and Phoenix.  No doubt about the difference, it really works.  Bigger difference than power cables and thats saying something because as you have noticed, the Phoenix responds well to good powerJust cut squares to fit on top of the caps.  I think lotususa do it too. 

@nyev, here’s a link to a review of the Gryphon 300 DAC with its integrated amplifier. The Chord Hugo M Scaler is mentioned as to how connecting it to the Gryphon 300 can be a benefit and it’s sound can be improved by adding the M Scaler. 

I use an M Scaler with my Chord Hugo TT2 DAC and three WAVE Storm BNC cables to get the sound signature that I enjoy. 

@adasdad , thanks, I had linked that article above. The article says they upsampled to 176kbps when connecting to the Gryphon DAC. That leads me to believe they were using TOSLINK and not the SPDIF connection option on the Gryphon DAC module (which would need to be RCA on the M-Scaler side but BNC on the Gryphon DAC side (I think most cable companies will mix and match connectors in this scenario?)

But this does lead me to the unresolved debate on the pros and cons of various digital interfaces, USB vs TOSLINK vs SPDIF, etc….. The experts end up saying what matters most is the implementation of the interface by the manufacturer, and not the interface itself.

Either way, I don’t know how good or bad the SPDIF connection is (which I’d need to use for the m-scaler if/when I bought one) in my Gryphon DAC module, vs the USB interface for which I know Gryphon went to town on. I wish I could do an interface bake off with my current gear, but Innuos only has USB outputs.

Anyone have any reasons why NOT to consider the M Scaler with my Gryphon DAC? The M Scaler seems to be one of those rare products that almost everyone unanimously says is great. Sort of like the Innuos PhoenixUSB. And my Diablo 300 amp.

My radar is always on the lookout for such products where everyone agrees they are great and Amir at Audiosciencereview says is garbage. Usually such products are worth paying attention to.

@tom23 , thanks for that link. The way the M Scaler is described is 100% the same way I’d describe the effect my Innuos PhoenixUSB adds to my system. I’ve since read that others who have both the Phoenix and the M Scaler also describe the effect of each as being identical. To be clear, I’ve read that others have said both together sound the best, but on their own, they both seem to add the same effect.

With this in mind, while I love my PhoenixUSB and couldn’t be happy without it now, I feel like adding that effect again might be "too much of a good thing".

In the link you mentioned the reviewer noted that maybe the Chord Dave has better detail than the TT2/ M Scaler, the Dave with all its detail might draw your attention to the detail and as such enjoyment of the music could be diminished. Another example of "too much of a good thing".

I do have a bit of a concern adding an M Scaler might be similar considering the effect the PhoenixUSB added, while welcome, might be overdoing things if that effect was added again.

The other factor is that upsampling is limited to 176k or 192k (not sure which) with my Gryphon Diablo DAC module. The review I linked noted the M Scaler sounded awesome with his Gryphon DAC, but he didn’t have the Phoenix, and he was using a homemade audiophile modded PC as a streamer.

Hmmm....

Maybe I'll seek out a used M Scaler and just give it a shot.  Can always sell it.

@mrc4u , not sure if you are still monitoring Audiogon forums as I see you haven't posted in a while.  But I read your old post noting your experience connecting the M Scaler with the Diablo 300's DAC, before you added the Chord DAC. You also noted that you prefer a weightier sound which is also why I chose the Diablo 300 a few years back.

I'm not looking to add a standalone DAC.  Would you say, from your experience, that the M Scaler is worthwhile addition connected to the Gryphon DAC, using its SPDIF BNC input?

If you haven't been there already a good place for research might be on the Head-Fi official thread. You can enquire about the in-depth technical considerations there including to Rob Watts.

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Have you looked at the HoloAudio May DAC KTE?

It is established as the current competitor for Hugo + M Scaler but will cost you quite a lot less.  

@nyev, I use an AudioQuest Diamond USB cable going from my music server to an Audiowise SRC.DX USB to DX converter so that I can bypass the Amanero USB input in my Chord Hugo M Scaler because I get a better signal with a BNC cable. Some folks say that good cables don’t matter. But my experience has shown me this not to be true. 

I would try another dac. Either of the top 2 Denafrips dacs, the Holo May, either of the top 2 Audio Mirror Dacs would probably sound much nicer than the Diablo 300 Dac. I used to have the Diablo300 with the built in dac, and all of the above mentioned dacs were much better sounding than the Diablo dac in my room

@phastm3 and @soma70 , yes, I know what you are saying is true about those DACs. But for me, I’m a cable guy, and tend to go top of the line. And that would mean adding a very expensive power cord, AND interconnect into the equation. I know I could improve things by just getting one of those DACs you mentioned and compromising on the cabling, but I would just end up getting the pricey cables. I’m not prepared to go that far now. This is why I’m opportunistically considering adding the M scaler, likely used. It would be a mere fraction of the cost of the separate DAC cables alone.  I think it’s a psychological thing, I need my gear to be performing at their best, completely unrestrained, regardless of whether it’s lower or higher end gear.

Also @phastm3 not sure if you are still using your Zenith MKIII, but if so have you tried the Innuos PhoenixUSB? You may not be the “extra box” type, but there is no denying it frees up the sound and for me dramatically improves the sound coming from the Gryphon DAC module. Some say it brings the Zenith MK3 90% of the way to the very expensive Statement, but I just read another reviewer that said he was hard pressed to hear the difference between Zenith plus Phoenix and the Statement.

I had the zenith mk3 with the Phoenix usb. I didn’t think the Phoenix did much in my system. I never tried the Phoenix with the gryphon dac. I sold both and bought  an Auralic Aries G2.1. I thought the Auralic sounded much better than the Zenith…this was with the Holo May as a dac. I have a Lumin streamer now….it will upsample to dsd256 and my T+A Dac200 sees native dsd256. My terminology may be a little off, but it sounds great and runs smooth with no glitches. 

@phastm3 I’ve heard good things about Auralic. Or maybe I’m thinking of Antipodes, I get those mixed up…. To be honest I’ve never been impressed with my Zenith Mk 3 on its own. I expected much better. But with the PhoenixUSB added (also the PhoenixNET too), I was stunned, and very satisfied from the sound when connected to the Diablo DAC module. One could argue that for that cost you could get achieve the same result in one box (although the PhoenixNET would help any streamer). Nevertheless, end result is I’m happy with the sound. But simply interested in what the M Scaler might add for a relatively modest cost if purchased used. Yeah, it’s a patchwork of multi-box solutions. But, budget is a factor and the boxes really do seem to help nudge things towards upper tier performance to my ears.  Nudge is too soft a word for what PhoenixUSB did.

I upgraded to Valhalla 2 speaker cables which levelled up my system’s transparency. Not sure I would have heard the difference my PhoenixUSB added had I stuck with my old Clarus Crimson biwires (which are also great for the price, but far less revealing).

Now that I’m stuck on Innuos (sort of) I’d probably spring for an upgraded Zenith which I would guess might be available by 2025-ish. Hopefully they do better than the MKIII. I know I’m the odd one out, most seem to love theirs.

Wow, I just watched Rob Watts (some people are just born with the right name) who designed the M Scaler, responding to Amir’s / Audiosciencereview (ASR) review’s trashing of the M Scalar!  Rob goes into incredible depth that clearly shows that The ASR measurements don’t have any context to them.

However, there is one measurement for which Rob’s response makes me less interested in adding the M Scalar.  The ASR site and another both measured very poor jitter performance.  Rob said jitter of the M Scalar IS high, and it is due to the thing that had to be used to get the upsampling so high.

But here is the part that bugged me:  Rob says that Chord DACs are resistant to jitter so it doesn’t matter that the M Scaler has poor jitter performance.  I don’t doubt that is true.  But he also said “I can’t speak for other DACs” and he said he designed the M Scalar to be used with Chord DACs.  He said he doesn’t think it’s really supposed to be used with non-Chord DACs.

So I have a PhoenixUSB to remove jitter (and things sound awesome with it), and this would feed the M Scalar, only to add a high amount of jitter back in (but getting the benefit of upsampling).  It feels like a trade off, and Rob even said it’s not meant for use in my particular case…

I think I’m less interested in the M Scalar now…. I’m certain it works wonders with Chord DACs though….

Anyone have any reasons why NOT to consider the M Scaler with my Gryphon DAC? The M Scaler seems to be one of those rare products that almost everyone unanimously says is great. Sort of like the Innuos PhoenixUSB

I've tried both those boxes. Scaler with a DAVE. I thought it was a waste of money. I've tried all manner of USB and Ethernet re-clockers including the Phoenix.. All a waste of my money. 

IMHO after much experimenting my conclusion is if your DAC benefits from USB and/or Ethernet  re-clockers you should get a better DAC. I have heard a benefit when using a Mutec MC3 + USB-AES instead of USB direct to DAC on a few DACs

If you want to upsample, pay a few hundred $$ for HQPlayer and do it in software.

@nyev , regarding Rob Watts name, I believe it's called nominative determinism. 

Another example. Where I used to work, the guy who physically shifted the servers around had the surname Heaver. 

The fellow reports M-Scaler works well with Mytek Brooklyn Dac (but not Denafrips Ares ii) in several areas: (1) vast increase in SS depth / width and image focus (2) increase in low end quality w/ deeper bass and better texture and (3) more natural vocal.  I guess everyone's mileage may vary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBvvDoAiBAI&t=486s

@lollipopguild , yep probably right.  And what about these:

Jim Beverage:  Master Blender at Jonnie Walker

Doug Bowser:  The Boss of Nintendo.  (Bowser is the evil boss in Super Mario Brothers).

@nyev . There are some great ones.  In the UK we have a Judge Judge.

@herman, thanks for sharing your experiences. Yes I agree the jitter control and upsampling benefits can be solved in high end DACs instead of using these sorts of boxes. But, money. I need more of it to get a DAC of that caliber, premium power cord, and premium interconnect. Ideally I’d have an Innuos Statement and a Chord Dave or something. But again, money…The PhoenixUSB box defining helps me get my digital chain a lot of the way there with a lesser streamer and a lesser DAC.

Also, I’ve not mentioned this. Terry’s Gryphon Diablo 300 review (Pursuit of Perfect System) mentioned that the Diablo DAC module has a weighty, energetic, “live” quality to it. But also noted it could not keep up with Chord TT2 + M Scaler with detail clarity and focus. He noted that the TT2 and M Scaler lost this “live” scale factor. While the Diablo DAC module is a lesser DAC vs pricier standalone DACs, I like its character, which is synergistically matched with the Diablo 300 amp, just as Terry also noted. So in this respect, there value in being able to keep this character of the DAC while compensating for some of its shortcomings with the PhoenixUSB. The M Scaler however creates more jitter again though, as confirmed by Rob Watt, and to me that seems like it would undo what my PhoenixUSB does, which is remove jitter.

@lollipopguild , too funny.

Just remembered I also knew a guy who was in construction with the last name Swinghammer.

Just saw the YouTube of the Innuos demo of the Uber expensive Statement Gen 2 server/streamer. Can easily hear the difference between Gen 1 and Gen 2 in the video. Sounds amazing.

But the part relevant to this thread: Innuos chose the Diablo 300 for the demo, and from what I can tell in the video they used the Gryphon internal DAC module, even though they were inputting their flagship streamer that costs 4X more than the Gryphon DAC module. I am starting to understand that the more you can lift the input to the DAC, the better the output from the DAC. I know you can also “solve” the issues from the DAC side with an Uber premium DAC but the relatively modest DAC doesn’t seem to be bottlenecking the performance of the input device, in my case.

In other words, I’m happy with my Diablo DAC with a high quality input thanks to the PhoenixUSB. This sort of closes my interest off in the M Scaler, which I can see being of value in other setups, where the DAC is more jitter resistant and where the DAC isn’t a Dave level DAC or higher. Would definitely love to have that Statement Gen 2 though. Not for a pretty long while….

I think you are on to something about using m-scaler with other Chord products for best results. I always thought of it as primarily intended to elevate the performance of the Hugo TT, with diminishing returns in other applications. Here is another review from yesterday you may not have seen - 

@tom23, Koji Ghafoor is a really knowledgeable guy when it comes to what audio gear is available on the market right now. I totally trust his opinions and insight. And I’m not saying that because he gave the TT2 and M Scaler positive reviews. The guy literally spends days out of every month demoing audio gear. Wish I could do that. 
 

IMHO, the M Scaler is an absolute necessity if you’ve got either the DAVE or the TT2 because it adds so much fullness and analog character to whatever you’re listening to. But you’ve gotta go all in on using really good BNC cables and having quality LPSU’s for both the DAC and the M Scaler. Though they’re not a must have because you can get by without them, when you do the result is truly satisfying. 

"IMHO, the M Scaler is an absolute necessity if you’ve got either the DAVE or the TT2 because it adds so much fullness and analog character to whatever you’re listening to."

I own a Dave and tried the M Scaler in my system. I prefer the Dave without the M Scaler. To my ears the M Scaler makes everything sound unnatural. 

I’ve heard that quite frequently, that M Scaler works well with TT2 and nearly everyone likes this pairing but with Dave the opinions are mixed on whether M Scaler helps or not.  

I have an MScalar which I will try out during my DAC upgrades, keeping it in the audio chain only if it improves sonics. When I reach my end game DAC, then i’ll decide whether to keep it or not.  

rob watts clearly states the scaler and tt2 models were developed in the same time frame, in some ways the fpga code for conversion and filtering written into the tt2 is optimized for the scaler fronting it... otoh dave has even more computing power but was a predecessor in deveopment time frame by a couple years, not to say there isn’t benefit to be had with an upscaled input feeding it...

my experience is the simply that the scaler feeding the tt2 makes it smoother and more spacious sounding, yet with no loss of detail/micro-dynamics, transients are more effortless and cleaner/more natural - the term i have used in an earlier post iirc is that somehow the musical ’bits’ seem glued back together more like the real thing, more seamlessly, with the scaler working

conversely, removing the scaler makes the tt2 sound more hifi -- more treble energy but in a glare-y sense, music seems sharper and more uptight - on my system the difference is immediately noticeable, no need to strain to hear it (which can be the case in trying to hear the difference among other finer dacs, say for instance, weiss 501 vs bricasti m1se)

I love my m Scaler and Dave combo, but I could never get the double BNC connection to work well.  Too many dropouts and pops while playing high res or DSD files.  I tried moving from BNC 1/2 to 3/4 on Dave with slight improvement but still occurring.  Synergistic research Galileo SX digital cables.  Red book files were playing fine, but anything above 16/44.1, annoying pops would return every 10 sec or so!   Did web search and sounds like a common problem for many Chord users and even Rob Watts admits on a forum.  Single BNC would limit the otherwise maximum 764 kHz to 384 kHz, which is still the maximum limit on many top DACS out there.  So, I removed one cable and no dropouts or pops since no matter what files I play.  If anyone out there was able to circumvent this issue and knows how to run dual BNC cables, please let me know.  Thanks in advance.