Is the stage actually wider on the Orchid or does the stage just sounds like a wall of music, and not saying it doesn’t have a pleasing sound. Is the Dave maybe quieter, more space between the instruments and maybe at a quick observation comes across as a narrower stage? No doubt tubes can throw a wide stage, but at what expense? Is there space between the musicians, can you close your eyes and point to each musician? I think on some tube components that have that tube bloom, things can get lost a little but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t sound pleasing or wonderful.
I have not heard either DAC but I suspect the Dave is more refined and there’s more space and openness with depth. Also is the Orchid a little louder than the Dave or do you have the output levels matched? Maybe the Orchid is a little more forward sounding? Could be the Orchid is just a better match in your system.
My RME ADI 2 fs throws a huge stage but it’s not always on, it has great stage and space and here and there you get that, “Where the heck did that come from”... feet beyond the sidewalls. Not to side rail things but using my RME as an example it’s more complex than just wide wall of sound always there, it’s extremely quiet, and maybe a little eerie with micro detail. Maybe the Dave is much more like this than just a wide wall of sound. |
Thanks nice thought process (:
The Dave is so MUCH better in every aspect then the Orchid, but tonal color are pretty equal and I am very happy about that.
I know the RME ADI2 had it for a week it was a little to bright sounding for my taste. But a VERY good dac for the money.
Again thanks for giving me food for tought
|
adg101 do you have an example off a piece of music that have a very wide soundstage and that can be found on Tidal.
|
I don't normally listen to Yello, but right know I am playing Touch by Yello and it's like sitting in a good surround system (I have a 7.4.1 system)
Simply just crazy, there are sound everywhere, but also controlled and focused.
Would just like a little more flesh on the voices. |
I had been using EmmLab Dac2 from 2001 to 2009 then I need a fresh air.
I auditioned Dave with and without Hugo Mscaler.
Without Mscaler, Dave is about same level as EMMLab Dac2.
But with Mscaler, it gave wider and deeper soundstage with more details.
Thus I bought Dave and HMS about one year ago.
|
I have the Dave and I find recordings are the determining factor in how the soundstage is reproduced. On some recordings the soundstage extends beyond my left and right speakers and some don't. I tried the Hugo Mscaler in my system and I prefer the Dave without the Mscaler. |
I own a Dave as well and I’ve found that different powercords impact its sound. More so than other components in my system. I also agree with adg101 and ricred1s comments. |
The DAVE is an amazing DAC and I literally can't keep them in stock which is mind boggling for a DAC that is >$10K. I will say that when I have one in my system (I swap depending on what I am showing) the idea that the soundstage wouldn't extend past my speakers is almost inconceivable.
I would definitely say your system doesn't suck. The double impacts are a wild speaker though. They can be driven quite well with 15w of great power or they could be driven with 400w of power. Wonderful sound but they also run at a relatively low impedance.
My hunch is that you might benefit from a step up in quality if amplification. I had a similar experience with that amp while demoing a pair of B&W 805 D3s. My gut tells me that you amp is the bottleneck.
If you are looking for a bigger soundstage, I would recommend three potential amps that will completely change your listening experience.
Check out:
Art Audio Carissa which is an 845 based SET. You don't need the integrated edition because the preamp section on the DAVE is superb and can be connected straight to the power amp. I have run this at home and it is truly spectacular. (full disclosure, I am the importer and reseller for Art Audio - I have a used Carissa available)
Line Magnetic LM-845. This has a brutally expensive tube compliment to upgrade/replace but this is a wonderful amp for the money and a brilliant product.
Raven Audio - Check out their 6L6 based amps. In my opinion, the king of all tubes in terms of soundstage is the 845 but the runner up is the 6L6.
|
I wonder if you have tried rolling the first or second gain stage with any NOS small signal tubes? I use new Genalex Golden Lions all around with NOS CIFTEs in the first gain stage of my Prima Luna Dialogue Premium Pre... In my system it really nailed the soundstage... |
do you have an example off a piece of music that have a very wide soundstage and that can be found on Tidal
Cut: Gypsy Nights Artist: Craig Chaquico Album: Panorama A wide sound stage can be: - Recorded well to reproduce the effect. - Engineered artificially to produce the effect. |
Thanks all, brilliant answers.I really wish there was a like button.
I have some mullard NOS tubes from the 60' in the input stage, really made a positive difference
|
I also found that streaming to a Lumin U1 mini in front of my Qutest DAC sounded so much better than directly from a laptop running either Roon or Audivana... |
Thank you very much for the
Cut: Gypsy Nights
Artist: Craig Chaquico
And Touch by Yello
Wide soundstage and interesting music....
By the way think about embedding the audio system’s components before spending for upgrading them...
Mechanical resonance embedding, electrical embedding, and acoustical embedding are very important more impactful than " almost" any change in electronic component even dac or in some case speakers.......
If I would reveal what my dac is and at what cost you would be insulted....
And I listen to details and wide soundstage with depth and with all the music out of the speakers in nearfield or in regular listening...Priced component are generally better but embedding rightfully a low cost good component is way more impactful than buying a costlier one without controlling the embedding rightfully most of the times...
|
Wide soundstage..
SRV tin pan alley ( the roughest place in town)
all of Santana Abraxas |
I agree on the tin pan Alley rec. The archives version is awesome.
If you are looking at the Dave I would recomend trying the Bartok. While it is a bit more expensive it has a network streamer builtin as well. Plus dCS updates the firmware with improvements over time as well. I owned a TT2 and mscaler I had auditioned the Bartok and dave and preferred the Bartok it presented a bigger sound stage and more realistic imaging.
Maybe take a look at the MSB discrete too. My friend had a premire that was fluly upgraded and it was amazing. He traded it up to the reference which I can't wait to hear. |
Hi martin-andersen, I strongly recommend that before you change anything else in your system, please try with speaker positioning.
I experienced a similar problem with two different Dacs. The cheaper one produced a huge soundstage while the 3x more expensive was disappointing in this regard. I blamed the source, the cables (usb and XLR IC, speakers cables), etc. I tried everything but the soundstage was still narrower.
Short story, I finally found that changing the speaker positing (separation between speakers, distance from the wall and less toe in) gave me the soundstage I was looking for.
At this point I realize that the speaker were perfectly set for my previous DAC sound (cheaper one), but it was not the perfect setup for the new higher end DAC.
Also keep in mind that the Orchid could have a more forward presentation, that can be perceived as a bigger soundstage compared to a more high end DAC that needs to be a bit more laid back in order to produce layers of sound, depth, precise imaging, natural and organic sound. Maybe that is the reason why you perceive the Dave is the winner in every aspect except the soundstage. My advice, let your brain and ears get used to the Dave sound and play with your speaker positioning. Also keep in mind that Dave is an outstanding DAC, which deserves high quality component to really shine.
Please let us know what are you using actually as a source to the Dave, which cables are involved between the source and the DAC, and the cables you are using as interconnect to your amplifier. Speaker cables too.
There could be a weak point also there.
|
What what are using for a streamer & a digital cable (USB or coax, etc)? What power cable are you currently using for the Dave DAC and all your other equipments? And what kind of AC power product do you have for your setup?
All these factors will be crucial.
|
You say you are evaluating. Could it be that the Dave is not yet "burnt in?" |
Some real good advices here!
the amplifier can change things dramatically. I personally have a Line magnetic 845 premium on cube audio nenuphar. The sound stage is bigger than my room boundaries itself! Both The back and side walls with pin point precision and separation. I have also assisted things with SR HFTs. I thought they are complete snake oil but my curiosity led me to try them and discover they can act like adjustment points on a projector screen somehow.
Also, speaker placement and amount of toe in could be crucial. This needs to be adjusted once a new amp or a new dac has been introduced.
I have heard the dave mutiple times in my system vs denafrips terminator previosuly, then against my latest dac; Rockna wavedream signature. The dave certainly can throw a sound stage outside the boundaries of speakers, i have witnessed that. But i noticed it was less in width than both terminator and rockna. However, the dave always had more depth.
After a recent comparison (have few friends who own a dave thus i get to witness such comparisons easily), its quite impressive with its depth, clarity (over all spectrum including impressive bass details), vocal separation from rest of music, but to me there is something sterile and emotion-less in the dave (dave is highly sensitive to power cord, it can literally tune it according to my friends) vs a high end r2r dac. There is no "better" here, i think its a matter of taste. My rockna is as technically capable regarding imaging /layering and 3d presentation maybe even superior, and its more dynamic for sure. more importantly its sounds more organic and real to my ears. Needless to say, the guy who owns the dave still preferred it. On the other hand, another friend with dave said my rockna has 10% more details, 20% more musical. Go figure!
The biggest challenge in our hobby is when we have to buy expensive things blind, its a good thing you got to try the dave before you buy it. Good luck making the right choice )) |
Regarding tracks:
Liberty from Annette Askvik - This track is one of the most amazing I have hear from an imaging perspective. Make sure your room is quiet and you should hear width and depth.
Be Still My Beating Heart from Sting - another amazing track that if your speaker placement is correct should deliver incredible width and portions of this song should come from over your right shoulder. There is a version on Fields of Gold that I use.
Blackbird from Sarah McLachlan - On Disk 2 of the Essential Sarah McLachlan. This track is overall lovely but there are bells/glockenspiel that comes in from the left side in the middle of the track that should almost make your turn your head to the left if things are set up correctly. |
Martin, I have Primaluna Dialogue separates including HP amp and I have Tekton D.I.'s also.
I don't have a Dave but I have experienced a similar situation between my Metrum Acoustics Pavane and my Sonnet Morpheus DACs. ( Morphues is a continuation of Cee's Ruetenburgs R2R DACs when he owned Metrum )
Pavane has a wider sound stage when compared to Morpheus. However after a couple weeks of A/B ing the DACs after a 500hr burn in of the new Morpheus, I've come to realize the Morpheus has a more focused center image an taller deeper soundstage.
At this point it's a matter of personal prefference. My friends are split down the middle on who prefers Pavane vs Morpheus.
I will say this, switching to NOS Mullard LONG PLATES have had a nice affect on sound stage in the Primaluna.
John
|
|
It is all about phase (when the signals from the left and right reach your ears) which is easily manipulated when making the recording. If one system has a different width then one is preserving the original phase better than the other i.e the other is shifting it more than the other., and the shift will probably be different at different frequencies since speaker crossovers are the largest contributor to this shifting.
Steve Swallow - Deconstructed "Running in the Family" (available on Tidal and Qobuz) opening bass line sounds like he is sitting next to me. It is so far outside the speakers and so diffuse it is difficult to listen to for some reason. My speakers have a single cap in line with the tweeter, a single inductor in line with the woofer, and the mid-horns run full range so about as minimal a phase shift as possible for a speaker.
|
