Cartridge or Pre Amp

Experiment with rolling the tubes in the Tube Box for a start.

Sorry, what is meant by rolling the tubes?

Not sure what you mean by "front stage darkness". 

"Tube rolling" is a slang that means trying different tubes. 

Thanks for explaining.
I mean that some records don't sound as dynamic or livelier. I would love to experiment with other higher brand tubes. What are the better tubes to try. Always welcome experienced opinions. TIA.

Tube rolling could help. If I were you I'd try a different cartridge - maybe go from mm to MC. The change Would be instructive one way or another. And your system could handle the higher quality source.

... if I understand your cartridge correctly

Your AT-ML150 is a great cartridge! Do not change it to MC or whatever MM, it will be the biggest mistake. The AT-ML150 has gold plated Beryllium Cantilever and Micro Line stylus. Beryllium is not available anymore from any manufacturers. MicroLine stylus is one of the best stylus ever made! You have absolutely amazing cartridge and it’s hard to beat by MC or MM, only if you will upgrade to AT-ML170 or AT-ML180.

The weak point is your TUBE phono stage, look for JLTi phono stage made in Australia, because some nice NOS tubes will cost you as much as the new phono stage (lol). Personally i would avoid cheap tube phono stages.  

JLTi + AT-ML150 is a killer combination, it is possible to change the loading up to 100k Ohm (instead of 47k Ohm) if you will ask Joe to made a free mods to his phono stage, he could replace internal resistors to 500k Ohm, after this mod JLTi is the most flexible phono stage with RCA plug load resistors on the back. MM or MC can be loaded to whatever value.

Get a Herron Audio VTPH-2a and never have to worry about phono stage performance.  It is as good as it gets and can handle high-output and low-output cartridges with equal aginity.  And the price for such a stellar performer is competitive with even mediocre performers.

Assuming the cartridge you are referring to is the AT150MLX, as shown at the link you provided, if you are not presently using the lowest input capacitance setting of the Tube Box DS (47 pf) that is the first thing I would try.

Also, how long is your phono cable? If it is particularly long its capacitance could be adversely affecting sonics.

The AT150MLX has a load capacitance recommendation of 100 to 200 pf, which is a low value, and anecdotal reports I’ve seen here confirm that too much capacitance will adversely affect its sonics. That number represents the sum of the input capacitance of the phono stage and the capacitance of all of the wiring between the cartridge and the phono stage.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

@bpoletti the Herron is $3650 and it must be very good at this price, but the OP using $399 Pro-ject tube phono. The JLTi cost $750 including shipping worldwide and it's much cheaper than previous $2k version. 

@joysofsound The AT-ML150 OCC or modern AT150MLX ? 
Anyway, both are very good MM cartridges, no worries, but the AT-ML150 is better. 

Upgrading your cheap tube phono stage is what you need. 
The JLTi is the best for both MM or MC for reasonable price and the latest version is much cheaper than previous swiss version, but the performance is even better.  

   

@chakster And the upgrade cycle will be never-ending.  Spending a bit more up front will end future money spend on continuing the mediocre performance of cheap electronics.  Using a Herron VTPH-2a will certainly make the AT150MLX sing up to its potential rather than limiting it with the cheap #%*@ you suggest.

Maybe you’re right, but based on my experience it’s hard to motivate a person to jump from $300 product to $3000 product.

The JLTi is not cheap sounding phono stage, if you know who was Allen Wright, who designed JLTi with Joe, and if you will look at the price tag for the first 3 Wright’s versions you will notice they are over $2k. New version does not have that fancy design, but amzing for the money, now $750 (AU$990) including shipping (extrenal power supply is optional upgrade).

Luckily there is NO tubes at all, which is a limited factor in my opinion !

For MM cartridges the JLTi is one of the best phono stage on the market at very reasonable price, no other phono stage alows the user to change the loading for MM cartridges.

@

I listen to Herron Audio equipment and wonder why they are not priced in the $30,000+ range.

I can only laugh at $30k equipment and the marketing strategy related to this business. 

Sorry for the incorrect link I provided. My cartridge is indeed the
AT-ML150 OCC

I don't mind spend the necessary $ to address/compliment my system. Hearing the details of your favorite track and jamming of a band in synergy is some of the best legal dependencies of life.
I'd love to hear more opinions on other phono stages people have had positive experiences on. Keeping in mind that I'm after a warmth that a tube offers, but not limited to a tube preamp.

Based on the specs shown in this listing it looks like the AT-ML150/OCC has the same 100 to 200 pf load capacitance recommendation as the AT150MLX.

Regards,
-- Al

Although like Bill (Bpoletti) I am a very happy owner of a Herron VTPH-2, it would not be a suitable match for the relatively low 22K input impedance of the preamp that was linked to in the OP.

The same concern would also apply to many other tube-based phono stages, although certainly not all. The Manley Chinook, for example, which I believe sells for ~$2.4K, is a tube-based phono stage that would have no problem driving 22K. Also, it is compatible with both high output and low output cartridges and provides a wide range of choices for resistive and capacitive loading.

Regards,
-- Al

The current Tube Box DS has the ECC 83 tubes just like some of the higher priced tubed stages carry. I'm all for upgrading but I'm also aware of the diminishing returns on said upgrades. I'll triple check the DIP switches.
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=tubeboxds&lang=en

@almarg Agreed.  The Herron would be better matched to a preamp with a higher input impedance.  Keith Herron would be a good source to determine whether changing tubes in a VTPH-2a would overcome a lower input impedance pre.  

My initial post has the incorrect link. This is the correct one: Pro-Ject Tube Box DS

I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on the AT cartridges (as the happy owner of an ART9 myself). What I’m suggesting is that at this stage of the game the OP might want to be learning more about which parts of the system have the most leverage, and which kinds of effects, rather than getting lost in the wilderness of specific models and their various merits (as described on the interwebs). I guess it’s a version of the adage, "give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish..." etc. First learn about the hinge points in the system and then make decisions about tubes, cartridges, phono stages and the like. I understand that it’s a bit of a Catch-22 because you have to make decisions about what to buy before you can hear the effects. But still - I’d say cartridge over tubes (if you have the disposable cash). I also agree that changing the phono stage could be helpful (and more important than the cartridge), but @joyofsound you did start out the thread by saying how much you enjoyed your new phono stage and its qualities.

The AT-ML150 is great, i've tried all cartridges from this series, for $350 the AT-ML150 is unbeatable! The sound is full of details, for double price the AT-ML170 is better. I've tried these carts with different phono stages from $500 to $2500, it wasn't dark at all. Zu Audio Mission Phono cable is great and you can buy one directly from zu audio promo auctions on ebay under $150. 

@jollytinker Very nice cartridge! I was actually thinking of upgrading the the ART9. What phone stage are you running with it?

@chakster I may also experiment with upgrading the stylus.

@joyofsound You can’t go wrong with the ART9. I think it depends on how much cash you want to invest. ART9 is around $1k depending where you get it. If you want to go above that I’d agree that a good phono stage would make a big difference. Mine is a Doshi Alaap 2.1 - even at a bargain price it was very expensive but I don’t regret the purchase. some very good options listed in this thread. Lately I’ve also been enjoying a Zyx CPP-1 head amp running into an old Audible Illusions Modulus 2A pre-amp, using only the tape outs so that it acts as a MM phono stage. sounds fantastic with a pair of svetlana 6922s

The more better the system gets, the more records will sound different to each other. That's the result of higher resolution. In fact, you should embrace it: that's one of the ways to tell if your system is actually getting better or just changing colorations/presentation. 


Surprised at some that are saying "get a better phono stage". Can easily say that about any other piece, or "upgrade everything". I personally think as you describe your system, it is very well balanced. 


Before upgrades, I think it's better to make what you have sounds it's best. What fun is it to just swap components without getting to play with them and get to know them? 

And, you have to roll tubes. It's like a rule. It's the law, if you want to be a true "audiophile". We do have a code of ethics, you know. 

Which ones? ALL of them-any you can get your hands on. It's just experimenting, right? Anything cheap, even used, you should try. Then, if and when you want to spend real money on tubes, you might have an idea what to get. 

I may also experiment with upgrading the stylus.

Replacement styli for AT-ML series are impossible to find nowadays, they are expensive. New styli for different AT models are not compatible and not as good at the ATN170 or ATN180 styli you may want to upgrade for. I think you have very little chance to find a better AT stylus than your beryllium/linecontact ATN150, this is how it looks under my macro lens. Beryllium cantilever with pressure fitted nude LineContact diamond. Beryllium cantilevers are no longer available in the industry. If you can’t hear the potential of this AT cartridge, then something wrong with your phono stage, maybe you need a top quality NOS Telefunken military tubes to improve the top end and clarity. I;ve bought all the best NOS tubes to experiment with my amps, but i ended up with First Watt gear and i don’t want to get back to tubes anymore. With MC cartridge like the ART-9 you will have even more problems with phono stage. Like @jollytinker i am a user of ZYX CPP-1 headamp and various SUTs along with different MM/MC phono stages.

If you can’t get the righ sound from such a nice AT cartridge then it’s too early to think about LOMC. The ART-9 is reasonably priced, but the phono stage or sut will cost you twice as much to the cost of the cartridge. When the MM cartridge sounding "dark" i would recomment to change the loading from 47k Ohm to 100k Ohm.

I wish i could find more styli myself as i am using AT-ML180 now (it’s a killer MM cartridge, one of the best ever). If you want to experiement with stylus then you can use that plastic stylus holder frame to send to SoundSmith for Boron Cantilever, i mean this one. If you want to look at comparison chart of the different AT-ML models you will find it here.

LOMC is not panacea in your situation, it will only cause more problems.
Life is easier with MM carts, some of them are exceptionally good compared to expensive LOMC.
And this is why i recommend JLTi MM/MC phono stage with its" diamond transistors", this is how it looks inside: https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18275023_1683323108352516_8614811338337251752_n.jpg?_n... 

Just a though...perhaps a bit off topic, cause I don't know if I would suggest a different cart, at least maybe not yet.

But what about high output MC? 

MC carts take capacitance out of the picture, which means more cable options. 

Generally speaking, where low output MC's put more demands on phono stages that MM's, high output MC's put less demands than both. 

Just, you know, something to consider. 

The 3 Laws of tubes

1. Thou shalt roll tubes.
2. Thou shalt use Herbies Tube Dampers.
3. Thou shalt use Graphene contact enhancer on the tube pins.

4th Law optional: Thou shalt cryo your tubes.

@geoffkait 

You forgot the law about recycling tube vacuum.

No mention about cleaning the vacuum.

My personal taste leans toward the use of natural vacuum instead of synthetic vacuum.  (I own a tanker car filled with liquified vacuum on a rail siding just outside Biose, ID.)

Cryogenic treatment of vacuum is essential.

Vacuum must be matched.  After all, mismatching tube vacuum just....   (wait for it....)  sucks.

My suggestion for creating natural vacuum is simple.  Just get your hands on a source of pure Hydrogen and remove the protons and electrons.  Neutrons will settle out at the bottom. 

It's possible to create even more vacuum by increasing the size of the vacuum storage vessel containing the vacuum.  The benefit of this is the increased purity of vacuum (see cleaning vacuum) and overcome the need to buy a vacuum cleaner.

BTW, I find bi-polar transistors acceptable as long as they are medicated.

Obviously sound can’t travel through a vacuum anyway. 😛

In space no one can eat ice cream. 🍦

@basement 

Generally speaking, where low output MC's put more demands on phono stages that MM's, high output MC's put less demands than both.

In was quite normal to use MM stage for HOMC cartridges, but i never liked the result, actually optimal loading for HOMC is not 47k Ohm to my ears. Also moving mass is always higher with HOMC than with decent MM, so i think there is no advantages of the high output MC compared to some nice MM or MI cartridges. 

100K loading on most MM cartridges will create a very large peak around 10kHz. And possibly a small reduction throughout the midrange. In a fake way, this can make an MM cartridge sound more like MC. But is that really what you want?

There are three state of the art modern MM/MI cartridges available today:

Ortofon 2M Black (my favorite)
Nagaoka MP500
Audio Technica VM760SLC

My favorite phono preamplifiers:

Parasound JC3+
Micromega MyGroov

hey @invictus005 have you compared Parasound JC3+ to Gold Note PH-10 ? 

Thanks @chakster for the valuable information you provided. I'm all in for testing various components and hearing the results. Of course results may vary. I'd like to start out by testing the ATN170 / ATN180 styli, a high output MC.Testing various various tubes and finally different sound stages. Thanks for posting the links. This has been very educational even to a audiophile like myself.

@invictus005 Unfortunately I need a subsonic filter due to my systems dynamic nature...alas the Parasound JC3 lacks one.

joyofsound"Unfortunately I need a subsonic filter due to my systems dynamic nature"

A subsonic filter is a band aid patch to try and correct something that is wrong with a Music Reproduction System but such filters suffer inherent problems and the course of best resort is always to identify, isolate and correct the problem at the source rather than try to conceal it utilizing additional electronics that are not necessary or preferred.

It is possible that those records which do not sound as dynamic are not as good as the recordings which do; it may not be your equipment.

@jimf42 I totally agree. The sensitivity of my setup is such that media production is crucial. As with any high end systems, poor recordings will be amplified.

Update:

Subsonic filter was removed! I didn't notice that it was selected. I also increased it to 60k, resulting in a much sensitive and wider stage. Amplification volume was much more sensitive, which was my end goal. Thanks to everyone's input in getting to the crux without spending a dime!

Unless your phono stage came with high quality tubes, I would highly recommend the following tubes purchased only from Grand Fidelity who sorts out the best for sale: http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/12ax7-tii-pair-or-single/.  I use them in my preamp and could not be happier with them and have used a number of NOS tubes to compare.

I'm not fluent in tube technology. I do know that my Pro-Ject Tube Box comes with ECC83 (12AX7).
I'm all for upgrading the quality but how does your suggestion differ in sound dynamics compared to the ECC83 (12AX7)?