@klooker To get back to your OP, with an Ittok, a good cartridge would be Linn's own Krystal. The Benz Wood cartridges are all good, but not that easy to source these days.
BTW, Linn's philosophy on upgrades is from the inside out...so the tonearm is less important than the power supply which is less important than the bearing etc., the tonearm is more important than the cartridge.
A cartridge that would be a step up over the ones mentioned would be a Lyra Delos, BUT you would need to be able to have it set up with greater precision than the others. |
Reading all these I want to remind that Ralph's experience with MM cartridges is very limited to certain mainstream models, I already asked about those models and never seen any serious MM in his list. There are some serious MC for sure.
In my opinion a cartridge is definitely more important than a tonearm but I hope we are all have a nice tonearm by default (after years of experience). Try to change a cartridge on your reference tonearm and the difference can be huge, especially when you will switch from MM to MC and back.
I think not everyone can buy over 20 cartridges, especially from the dealers (for insane prices these days). Most of the audiophiles are using 1-3 cartridges and still can not get away from the mainstream models. |
Reading all these I want to remind that Ralph's experience with MM
cartridges is very limited to certain mainstream models, I already asked
about those models and never seen any serious MM in his list. @chakster pretty funny! just sort of an FYI, I put myself through MIT (Minnesota) repairing consumer electronics in service departments throughout the 70s and continued after college doing a lot of setup and repairs for a local high end audio dealer; we still service audio gear in our shop, as there really are very few shops in Minnesota that can handle high end and studio gear. In the old days (70s, 80s) before the Grados I used several versions of the Shure V15 as well as Stanton, Pickering, AudioTechnica and a few others that escape memory right now. I've literally set up hundreds of cartridges over the last 50 years in all variety of arms. |
@atmasphere In earlier threads on audiogon, when I asked about your MM cartridges, I never seen any top models even from Grado, AT, Pickering, Stanton or Shure mentioned in your answers.
After decades of reseach all the best MM cartridges were re-discovered by many audiogon members and posted in the dedicated MM thread.
Low model Grado cartridges, Shure V15, all Stanton/Pickering (except 4 top models) do not belong to the "best MM" or "best MI" cartridges today.
This is why I said "mainstream" models, you could set-up millions of them. But you can't even mention specific models for some reason, why?
I remember you said your entry level Grado performed as good as some very expensive MC in your arsenal. I could imagine how some of the best MM or MI cartridges could sound in your system (maybe much better?).
I set up cartridges for others too.
|
In earlier threads on audiogon, when I asked about your MM cartridges, I
never seen any top models even from Grado, AT, Pickering, Stanton or
Shure mentioned in your answers. Yes- that's all true. But- this appears in contradiction to Low model Grado cartridges, Shure V15, all Stanton/Pickering (except 4
top models) do not belong to the "best MM" or "best MI" cartridges
today. The Grado Gold is the top end cartridge Grado makes that is not a wood body. The Shure V15 was of course their flagship cartridge for many years. The Pickering and Stantons I had were also their top models. There's a bit of a moving target here- even though these were flagship cartridges at the time you now seem to feel comfortable denigrating them. Also-'Today'?? Wait- did I miss something- haven't you been on about **vintage** cartridges? No- here you are going on about that on a different but related thread: Those old cartridges are superior to many new cartridges, condition must be perfect. Its easy to see these quotes are inconsistent. In the US we have a saying- 'you can't have it both ways'. You discount my comments saying I've not had any experience with top drawer MM cartridges. Then it turns out I do. Only now those top drawer cartridges don't count, except for those that do (excepting somehow that if I have experience with them they don't); apparently its *some other* vintage MM cartridge??... When I encounter comments like this, the 'moving target' thing is a sure sign they were made to be verbally abusive. So if you could- knock it off. |
@atmasphere Well, nevermind ...
But let me admit:
Grado Gold is not a top model Grado cartridge and never was, a top model was Grado XTZ (Joseph Grado Signature model designed in the 80s) and it’s much better than GOLD mainly because of the stylus. Joseph Grado explained very well why this model is his best. The XTZ have the most advanced stylus of them all.
Shure V15 was very popular model, but the best Shure cartridge is ULTRA 500 and this is a flagship model, not V15
Pickering with model number 4000, 4500, 5000, 7500 are top models with nude Stereohedron tip, the rest of the Pickering are not even close. Most of them are cheap mass market MM carts with bonded elliptical styli.
Stanton 881, 980, 981 Stereohedron are top of the line, the rest are not even close (same as Pickering lower models).
All those cartridges are High-End MM/MI even today and they will blow away most of those $3000 MC cartridges being under under $1k category.
I have never met (yet in my life) any single person who dislikeв those top models I've mentioned above.
In your theory tonearm is more important than a cartridge, but you never mentioned exact models of those great MM you have tried, except for the Grado Gold which is clearly not the best, but Grado Gold was almost equal to your best LOMC as you said earlier. Well this statement speaks for itself.
You have a fear of buying great vintage MM or MI even NOS.
I have no problem with that. It’s your fear, not mine.
I will be happy to buy all of them if I could, and luckily a lot of people share your opinion so I’m happy they are still ignoring them and do not bid on the same auctions :)
As I said earlier I’ve had more problems with new overpriced LOMC cartridges than with my NOS or MINTY vintage top models (MM/MI or MC), maybe because I know what I am buying?
|
I do not know which Grado I ran back in the 80s. I do remember that the Pickering was a 4500. The Stanton was the 881. I got it next door at Sound of Music next to where I worked at the Allied Radio Shack. That is also where I bought my Technics SL1100, equipped with a Rabco arm. The ULTRA 500 was after I was done with Shure (so the type III and type IV I had *were* their top of the line at the time)- the story was at the time that they were no longer going to make cartridges but that turned out to not be true. By that time I had gone to the Grado, which was the most I'd ever spent on a cartridge. I didn't dislike these cartridges- quite the opposite- I simply played them until the suspension bagged out, and bought the next 'hot tip' that my audiophile friends were talking about. In your theory tonearm is more important that a cartridge, but you never
mentioned exact models of those great MM you have triend, except for
the Grado Gold which is clearly not the best but was equal to your best
LOMC. Well this statement speaks for itself.
It does, in that it is false. What I said was that the Grado Green did that bit. What I mentioned about the Gold is that we use it in the mastering studio to ascertain if a track we've cut will play out properly. If the Gold in the Technics SL1200 plays without distortion, then we can go ahead and do the cut. Lacquers are 14" instead of 12" so sometimes we'll do the test cut outside the lead-in grooves. I modified the SL1200 so that it plays the 14" disks just fine. Now you might notice something- that actually we're more in agreement here than not. You want to say that the vintage cartridges are the hot setup, and all I've been maintaining through this ordeal is that the arm's ability to track the cartridge is paramount. These are not mutually contradictory statements. But you do seem to be attempting to discredit me nevertheless. |
@atmasphere For the mastering it's nice to have a cartridge that most of the vinyl lovers actually using (like inexpensive Grado for example), not those ultra high-end MC.
Regarding the tonearms I just don't understand what do you mean. Because I've been using Technics most of my life and never had a miss tracking or something (and Grado DJ200i was on it for a long time).
As for the High-End tonearms I also don't understand, maybe I'm lucky but for me matching carts and tonearms is not a rocket science. Good tonearms tracks all the matched cartridges perfectly. There are many great tonearms made in the golden era in Japan (fully adjustable, clever design). I see much more problems with modern tonearms without adjustment (cheap simple design).
It's not necessary to pay $5000 for Tri-Planar, just like with cartridges.
Now using FR64s or FR64fx, Lustre GST-801 with matched carts, and many more (light mass or heavy mass) tonearms I am happy with the sound.
Old is gold! |
Hi rauliruegas.
I guess there's no-one on this forum that knows more than you.
Try not to patronize in every piece you post.
You are correct it is fundamental to retain the positional relationship between disc surface and stylus through TT and arm bearings with minimum free play. If this is not achieved, the orientation of the stylus in the groove is allowed to vary, varying the signal in a manner not in the groove.
A properly engineered unipivot can do this. Its advantage is the arm wand sits on a single point and is held down by its mass, preventing lateral movement in any direction, as long as the bearing does not jitter.
A gimbal set-up must always have some free-play in its bearings, otherwise the arm wand would be unable to move. Thus there will always be unwanted movement between arm wand and arm housing, however small.
A well-engineered air-bearing parallel tracker will do a better job than either. It requires a high pressure air supply, not a fish-tank compressor. Even though the tiny air gap in the bearing theoretically allows relative movement between its two elements, the high pressure in the space holds the air-gap constant between them.. |
Dear @clearthinker : Absolutely wrong. I'm only other audiophile with different ignorance levels than other gentlemans and I know not one but several Agoners with way higher knowledge audio levels than me.
I can see that you have high knowledge level and probably better than me. Good.
In the other side no one in audio knows everything about everything in all thousands of audio subjects. Certainly not me.
R. |
A gimbal set-up must always have some free-play in its bearings,
otherwise the arm wand would be unable to move.
This statement is false. If a bearing in a gimbal system is over-tightened the arm can still move but a lot depends on the bearing. At some point if tightened too much the arm will get quite stiff, and likely also the bearing will be damaged. The latter issue is far more profound with jeweled bearings, which is why they often have some slop to prevent damage. If a metal bearing is hard enough, this issue is overcome. The SME5 is a good example of this as is the Triplanar and I suspect there are others- its a big world out there. Regarding the tonearms I just don't understand what do you mean. Because
I've been using Technics most of my life and never had a miss tracking
or something (and Grado DJ200i was on it for a long time). Yes- I can imagine this is true- a friend of mine has the EPA-100 and I've not heard it mistrack. But just because this is so does not mean that the cartridge is actually tracking its best. But the difference is both audible and measurable. |
Hi Raulruegas
Thank you for that.
Whatever knowledge I have has taken more than 70 years to acquire.
There is too much dogmatism here, as others have observed, but this is entirely understandable. What we want to avoid is slagging one another off or alleging lack of knowledge in someone we have never met. We can share knowledge and, indeed, opinions without that.
Sorry atmasphere, you are incorrect. At least from a technical standpoint. If it is not over-tightened then it is free to move. If it is free to move then there must be an interference gap, however small, between the moving parts. I don't think the hardness of the materials used has any bearing (ho ho) on the question. As long as the surfaces are accurate and finely finished, their hardness will only affect the service life of the piece. |
At least from a technical standpoint. If it is not over-tightened then
it is free to move. If it is free to move then there must be an
interference gap, however small, between the moving parts. If so the runout can't be detected. I guess we'll just have to agree that we disagree on this point. |
Yes. We disagree.
But I am starting a new trend here. I am not going to say you have low level knowledge because of that. |
And stylus is user replaceable. About the modern day Audio Technica carts, I was ready to plunk down the money for the Audio Technica AT-ART9 Moving Coil Cartridge until I read here on agon (again chakster) that the stylus was not replaceable! Needless to say that was quite a shock to an old head hifi guy like myself. |
tyray
I resisted MC for 30 years, the non-replaceable stylus the second reason, the 'fear' of noise from needed pre-pre-amp signal strength boost the primary reason. however, I met Bill, he is convincing, and I had improved my TT system sooo much, and I found some surprise money, so I tried my first MC cartridge, AT33PTG/II, and needed a SUT step up transformer to get the .3mv signal high enough for my MM Phono input. I'm very glad I spent the money, my prior favorite, MM Shure V15VxMR is now upstairs in my office. It wasn't inexpensive, but I think worth it. |
I just played Jose Feliciano, 10 to 23 album, MC cartridge is terrific, the last track, Hey Jude, 8 minutes, long guitar solo, never sounded better!
I've talked about it's separation,this time the tight channel balance, he is ROCK centered! |
Jeezo...
The OP asked about cartridge opinions & suggestions! |
@joysjane
Ha! Yes, that's what I asked for. Thanks for bringing it up.
It's cool, if people are exchanging other info or just having a gold old fashioned pee pee contest, I don't mind. I was able to extract some useful info.
Please carry on. |
Most of us can agree with @clearthinker on this, exchanging ideas without attacking other people we've never met.
Not too long ago I posted on the forum to bring some attention to the reel to reel format and was told by one of our forum regular posters that the reason why I like reel to reel is because there's something wrong with my vinyl setup.
I think some of us will get more respect and be viewed as the forum expert when we can respect others' opinions a little more. |
I am not going to say you have low level knowledge because of that. :) +1 |
elliottbnewcombjr, Actually you and I are not to far off. You just have had maybe a little more time (and maybe money☺!) than my hihfi budget can afford right now. My current phono preamp is MM only but my next phono pre upgrade will have a internal SUT. I actually have been a big fan of JICO styli too but right now I’m only interested in vintage cartridges such as the Audio Technica AT-ML180/OCC or OFC cartridges and the OEM corresponding styli. atmasphere, I’ve always admired the courteous and gracious manner when you respond to others posts. You remind me of an old school gentleman always willing to share and teach in layman like terms to explain the most complex points of music reproduction. Please don’t change, for no one. And much thanks to you for helping me understand what an OTL tube rig is. Although I do agree with others here that the stylus and cartridge maybe more important than the tone arm WHEN mechanically reproducing sound from vinyl. scar972, This thread is actually quite tepid compared to some others here on gone, or haven’t you noticed before? |
I’m only interested in vintage cartridges such as the Audio Technica AT-ML180/OCC or OFC cartridges and the OEM corresponding styli.
This is a hell of a cartridge and much better than AT's LOMC I don't know how but i bought two NOS styli for my AT-ML180 after 5 years of searching. Another (very close) model is AT-ML170 @tyray
|
Yeah chakster the only reason I haven’t gotten back to you is the funds aren’t available yet. |
Although I do agree with others here that the stylus and cartridge maybe
more important than the tone arm WHEN mechanically reproducing sound
from vinyl. @tyray Dave Slagle recently sent an article to me by Peter Moncreif, who did some testing on cartridges and how they make distortion. It was an interesting read! I found it interesting that while he was able to show that the cartridges did seem to make distortion, he really didn't go into much about the arm despite testing a good number of cartridges. Yet no mention of the arm, but we all know that getting the cartridge/arm combination to work its mechanical resonance has to be in the 7-12Hz range, and otherwise how tiny little tweaks in the adjustment can have a huge affect on the result! It obvious to me that if there is an adjustment on an arm that is tricky to set up, the chances of getting it correct are vastly reduced. We've all heard cartridges make distortion; if you can set all the parameters right, then its clear that distortion is reduced. I've seen arms that don't allow for adjusting the VTA, others that allow you to adjust it, but only by loosening a screw and moving the entire arm (the old Grace is an example of this); many have no adjustment for azimuth whatsoever... To put this to an extreme to make my point, you can't expect to put a $5000 cartridge in a Voice of Music tonearm (google images...) and expect it to work properly! So at what point do you draw the line? What I've found is that the arm is more important if you really want to get things right- so that is where I make that distinction. |
@atmasphere I agree with you 100%, the arm is more important than the cartridge. This is fairly easy to hear, place a lesser cartridge on a great arm and you will hear everything that the cartridge can give off, however, place a great cartridge on a poor arm ( and there are a ton of those) and you will not hear what that cartridge can do. |
Dear @daveyf : You an atmasphere are taking wrong arguments to prove tonearm is more important that obviously it's not. Let me explain.
You can mount a great cartridge in a good tonearm and even that the combination can sounds bad. Things are not so easy as you stated.
poor tonearms? well really poor tonearms almost does not exist, at least the gimball ones. Even Rega is a good tonearm and has not VTA adjustment.
Cartridge per sé develops distortions coming from the tracking extremely hard task and those distortions are added by the ones developed by the TT/tonearm feedback and transmitted through the cartridge body that develops its own distortions. But the grooves tracked signal must pass through the cartridge coils/wire and through the output terminals and over there are developed distortions too. So obviously that cartridge develops distortions because the archaic LP overall medium. Even that it's the cartridge whom makes the tracking to pick up the the information of the recorded groove modulations.
A good tonearm can't help much more to that task because only can hold the cartridge and adds more distortions generated through all the tonearm construction parts and there is no perfect tonearm when almost all are not really well damped to put at minimum the tonearm generated distortions and generated feedback distortions ( vibrations, resonances, etc, etc. )
Now, we can have a great cartridge mounted in a great tonearm and even can't shows at its best if the TT/cartridge/tonearm overall alignment/geometry set up is not made it accurately.
Other than Rega all today tonearms comes with AZ, VTA/SRA, etc, etc, facilities.
Many times a cartridge sounds better in a not so great tonearm than in a great one because it's better matched to that tonearm characteristic of its developed distortions.
Cartridge is like speakers, is a transducer and this facts makes these two system links the more system important links.
Please let me know a today " poor " tonearm of the " ton " you stated.
I can mention today good tonearms: SME, Reed, Durand, SAT, VPI ( gimball. ), Triplanar, Jelco, Rega ( you can add an inexpensive after market dedicated VTA mechanism. ), Ortofon, DaVinci, Pluto, Cobra, Dynavector, Audio Note, Brinkmann, Thales, Schroeder, Linn, Townshend, Kuzma etc. Which is a bad tonearm?
You can be sure that any cartridge performs different mounted in any of those tonearms due that each tonearm develops different distortion ( every kind. ) levels but that cartridge develops the sound that we listen trhough the speakers.
After the LP cartridge is the " source " and yes can't works with out a tonearm but can't works with out a TT too or with out a phono stage.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@rauliruegas Your post is one that seems to take what I posted totally out of context. ( I know you are translating into English, so I understand the ability to misinterpret my posts).
There are clearly going to be issues with the tonearm to cartridge synergy if either one of those components has an issue with the other. To that, if a set-up is incorrect or there are problems upstream, then neither component is going to sound its best. This is not something that I was addressing in my post, and frankly should be fairly obvious to anyone that knows anything about analog set-up.
There are a number of what i consider to be poor arms on the market, and while this may be relative in a total sense, I have experienced arms that simply leave a lot of information from the groove behind. As an example, you mention Linn arms...some of which are ok, but none that I am aware of can adjust for azimuth.The Linn Basik Plus arm was IME an arm that was totally veiled and not worthy of the table. There have been a number of Technics arms that are also not what I would consider as 'high end'. While this is of course again relative to what is available from entry level turntable/arm combos, there are simply a number of 'poor' sounding arms ( in this context ..veiled) on the market. You mention Jelco and Rega, which while they are fine for what they do, I would think that even you would admit that they simply do not compete against something like a Reed or SAT ( and they really shouldn't given the large price discrepancy!)
Sorry, but what Ralph posted about tonearms being more important in the hierarchy than cartridges is something that I believe to be true. |
Azimuth can be adjusted on ANY tonearm with detachable headshell. There are many inexpensive ($20-60) headshells with azimuth and overhang adjustment.
You don’t have to buy $5000 Reed 3p with azimuth on the fly to adjust your cartridge, anyone can do that on any cheap tonearm with detachable headshell.
The VTA is the issue and tonearms without VTA adjustment is nonsense! Manufacturing and selling a tonearm nowadays without simple VTA adjustment is disrespect.
I want to admit that every audiophile already have a good tonearm if a person is serious about this hobby. The key to a perfect sound is a cartridge (well matched to tonearm) !
You can put your Denon 103 on whatever well matched tonearm and it will remain a $300 cartridge, you can’t improve it until you will get a better cantilever and a proper stylus profile and then you will hear why cartridge is more important than a tonearm. Tonearm can’t solve the issue with that.
Compare two different cartridges on the same well matched tonearm and the difference will be huge. Simply compare that DL 103 on heavy tonearm with another low compliance MC from a different league. Then change one well matched tonearm to another well matched tonearm and the difference between the cartridges will be the same. A better cartridge is always better. Because a cartridge (and its stylus, cantilever, generator) is responsible for the signal pickup from the record groove.
This is why tonearm is second, cartridge is first (unless you are trying to use mismatched components).
|
Dear @daveyf : I respect your opinion but I disagree with because if we really analise what happens in LP alternative makes no sense to me ( my opinion. ) to put tonearm over the cartridge in critical importance/priority.
You mentioned Technics or Jelco tonearms that in reality are very good tonearms, problem with belongs to the mediocrity quality level of its internal wires that’s makes a paramount difference in any tonearm but we can’t ask for more for the entry level price those tonearms have.
You can mount a Lyra Delos in a stock Jelco tonearm and will performs ok and if you change it for a Lyra Kleos you will listen better quality sound levels and if you go with the Etna then the quality level of what you are listening goes even higher and all those happens in that same entry level tonearm.
Who makes the differences down there. The tonearm? certainly not but each one cartridge.
Take Ortofon manufacturer that offers 27 diferent cartridge models at diferent price levels: 27 . I named 21 diferent tonearm manufacturers and maybe exist other 4-5 that I did not remember: 21 tonearm builders.
Well, each one of those 27 Ortofon cartridges performs at a diferent quality levels and it does not matters in which tonearm you mount it you will listen those differences.
Why can you listen those differences?, because each cartridge is designed with singular characteristics of: type of magnets, coils, coil wire, suspension, different cartridge body materials or blend materials, cartridge body shapes, specs, cantilever build materials/length and shapes, stylus shapes, some models cantilever/stylus are hand selected and the cartridge hand calibrated, comes with different tracking abilities, obviously cartridge motor is not the same, different VTF, different electrical " numbers ", etc, etc.
The cartridge is the responsable to pick up the MUSIC recorded in the LP ( not the tonearm. Tonearm is hold it. ) and what we are listening is what the cartridge and its critical tracking abilities are picking-up. As better the cartridge and as better its cartridge abilities as more MUSIC information and less distortion we are listening. If we want a diferent quality level performance of what we are listening this we can solve it changing the cartridge.
Btw, do you own one cartridge and 6 tonearms or the other way around? Think on this.
Of course that if the tonearm has premium internal wire the cartridge signal information will improve it.
Tonearm is a slave of the LP and a slave of the cartridge as is the TT or the phono stage.
Nothing can be more important than the transducer and overall what this means.
I’m not saying that tonearm is not important because it’s but cartridge is a little more critical and important than the tonearm.
So for me you and atmasphere are wrong in this specific subject.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
Even Rega is a good tonearm and has not VTA adjustment. As long as you use their cartridge. Otherwise its problematic. Good luck if you want to use a different turntable or platter pad (as they affect the sound as well). Now, we can have a great cartridge mounted in a great tonearm and even
can't shows at its best if the TT/cartridge/tonearm overall
alignment/geometry set up is not made it accurately. Some arms simply will not allow you to set the cartridge up correctly. That seems to be a fault of the arm. So this comment belies Raul's argument. This is why tonearm is second, cartridge is first (unless you are trying to use mismatched components).
The conclusion here does not seem to be supported by the post in which it occurs. You will not get the minimum distortion out of any cartridge if the arm is unable to track the cartridge properly. This is a very simple fact with which all audiophiles are intimately familiar if they have used a turntable! I really don't get why anyone would argue the other way, unless for the sport of it... |
This is a very simple fact with which all audiophiles are intimately familiar if they have used a turntable! I really don’t get why anyone would argue the other way, unless for the sport of it... Ralph, I am of the opinion that it’s ok to be wrong as long as you are trying to see the other person’s viewpoint and hopefully learning from each other. That being said I tried to find analogies of a recording being made with an album being played. So I looked up the best recording session I could think of and came up with Miles Davis’s Kind of Blue sessions. I noticed in pictures of those sessions microphones and all types of recording ’booms’. Is it a fair analogy to think of a mic as similar to the functions of a cartridge since a mic is also a transducer? And is it also fair to see a boom as similar to the functions of a tone arm since it has also inside of the boom wires that carry the music’s electric signal from the mic to the recording magnetic tape? Which brings up another analogy of the magnetic tape being similar to an album or platter being cut directly from what’s being played (recorded) by the mic? If so, the mic is far more important than the boom. And for the life of me I still see the cartridge as far more complex feat of engineering and more important than the (overpriced) tone arm which I think is a scaled down version of a boom? Am I wrong? I’m trying to learn here - as ’sport’ has nothing to with cartridge options. Thanks all |
Dear @atmasphere : "
Some arms simply will not allow you to set the cartridge up correctly. That seems to be a fault of the arm. So this comment belies Raul's argument.
" No, it not belies my comment due what you posted: " seems to be a fault of the arm " and I can add: a " fault " of the tonearm manufacture or maybe it's not because all depends of the designer priorities. For Rega rigidity is a must to have over any other characteristic and that main priority is showed in the manufacturer design: http://www.rega.co.uk/rb2000.htmlI remember the first DaVinci Grandezza design with the same Rega priority that after customers and comments over the internet they decided to haVE AZYMUTH AND LATTER ON REMOVABLE HEADSHELL FACILITIES. ""
You will not get the minimum distortion out of any cartridge if the arm is unable to track the cartridge properly. "" so what, that's a problem with that tonearm so buy a different tonearm that can fulfill your/cartridge needs. Now, all those does not means in any single way that tonearm is more important than the cartridge because it's not. Please do it a favor and don't try to win this dialogue because that's not the issue, please only think about. That's all. Any tonearm manufacturer has its own priorities and certainly does not has to even yours or the priorities of any audiophile. Normaly almost all tonearms fulfill the cartridge needs but some of we audiophiles have some specific needs. Example: removable headshell tonearm design because this permit to change the " color " of the cartridge sound. Magnesium headshells are different that wood headshells or blended material headshells and we don't know with which builded material that cartridge performs best till we try it with. If the tonearm has not removable headshell then some way or the other our cartridges are " married " with the tonearm signature that could go fine with 1-2 cartridges but certainly not with all. Anyway, cartridge is at the top, no matters what. @tyray +1 with out doubt. R. |
+1 @ rauliruegas, You bring up a valid point. If a tonearm has a removable headshell, then the cartridge is definitely more important than a metal tube with wires and is height and level adjustable, I would think. Very similar to a boom with a detachable mic that swivels and has a detachable connector. And I also think that Azimuth can only be adjusted on the headshell itself and not the tonearm, whether the headshell is removable or nonremovable. Thanks R! |
Isn’t any cartridge just a small slave motor entirely dependent upon a much bigger one, ie the turntable motor? Origin Live for one still seem to ascribe to old established notion of turntable hierarchy. Namely, turntable first, arm second and cartridge last. From their website. ’Tonearms Overview It is supremely important that your cartridge is held rigidly whilst at the same time isolating it from unwanted vibration. No matter how good your cartridge is, it’s been proved that it can never perform at anything like it’s true capability without a good tonearm. In the same way, a relatively inexpensive cartridge worth £50 can outperform one that costs £1250 simply by being installed on a better arm.’ See also : Our Opinion on Component Significance https://www.originlive.com/hi-fi/tonearm/ |
@ cd318, Now I’m more confused? Or is it more enlightened? I have a vintage Pioneer PL-630 Quartz PLL Electronic Full Automatic turntable that is in mint condition and has a fantastic tonearm. What I have noticed about this particular table is it is designed with the idea of the turntable as a complete system to complement each part and function of the table to act as one combined unit for a more precise performance. No aftermarket tonearm needed nor wanted here.
Also what I forgot to realize is that different engineers attack a design in all matter of different ways to find ways for optimum performance. I shouldn’t be surprised at this realization as I have worked in engineering all my life and have constantly had to ’revise’ engineering drawings as I am a draftsman. You can spout all the 'white papers' and studies you want. I have to find out for myself. And another thing, a headshell is NOT a tonearm, last time I checked. Although that could change, at any time.... |
And is it also fair to see a boom as similar to the functions of a tone
arm since it has also inside of the boom wires that carry the music’s
electric signal from the mic to the recording magnetic tape? Right here is where the analogy falls apart. A mic boom is simply holding the mic in the right location, but in that regard is rigid and does not have to articulate. It doesn't need much in the way of adjustments and they come in different sizes depending on application. Certainly no worries about things like effective mass, mechanical resonance 7-12Hz or the like. I've been doing consumer electronics service since the day after I graduated from high school back in the 1970s. One time a customer came in the shop and actually wanted a magnetic cartridge installed in his VM turntable. Now some of you here might know what those are, obviously others here do not. I had to explain to him that the idea simply wouldn't work- that if he wanted that cartridge because it sounds better and would be better to his records, he was going to need a tonearm that could do the job. A VM turntable is designed for a ceramic cartridge that tracks a bit heavier than any magnetic cartridge- 5-7 grams is common. The VM arms have no provision for setting overhang, and barely anything for setting tracking weight. Now I don't know how far to push this, but it should be obvious to anyone in audio that working with an arm like that, you're simply not going to get the best out of any magnetic cartridge! Its a given. So starting from there, we all know that correct overhang is critical to getting the sound right, so is the tracking pressure and VTA. And yet there are 'high end' tonearms that have no VTA provision; by the argument I'm seeing presented here, the conclusion we see this heading to is that VTA does not matter to any cartridge (Raul indirectly made this argument). Obviously that is false! Now having worked with a lot of arms and having built my own, I know that the arm tube resonance is a thing, even though there's no adjustment for it. It can make a big difference as to how the arm plays the mids and highs. So in any potential arm I'm looking at, I expect the arm tube to be damped in some way. A good number I see are not. Now if you can hear what that does, are we going to ignore that and just say that makes no difference whatsoever?? Most audiophiles I know don't mind a bit spending the time to set up their cartridge correctly; I am really failing to see how the cartridge can eclipse the arm in this. All my experience points to the contrary, and in spades. |
Right here is where the analogy falls apart. A mic boom is simply holding the mic in the right location, but in that regard is rigid and does not have to articulate. It doesn’t need much in the way of adjustments and they come in different sizes depending on application. Certainly no worries about things like effective mass, mechanical resonance 7-12Hz or the like. Ralph, I agree more with you than not. As I have done all the tweaking to my Pioneer table arm as it has every tonearm adjustment you can think of. You know how I know? Because it is APITA! And you certainly have taught me some things and know far more about audio engineering than I do. And here comes the but. But doesn’t all the magic happen in the (LIVE) recording venue of the studio? The position, location and placements of (booms) mics, musicians, room sound treatments, the experience level of a competent recording engineer ect? Am I wrong to notice not only the science of a recording but the ART form as well? I think there is a bit more that goes INTO a recording than what you say above. And if you look at pictures of the Kind of Blue session, they do show articulating booms with multiple joints. Remember this was at the house of Columbia Records. To this day when I hear a Rudy Van Gelder engineered album that is a great pressing, I’m still blown away at his technique.That’s all I’m saying. And you know what’s really confusing? There’s just as many arguments from audiophiles with some of the best systems known to man and they swear by only using a headshell alignment tool and their ears! Ralph, thanks again for taking the time to teach, us all. |
Firstly, i want to say that I still agree with Ralph 100%. The arm is more important than the cartridge. IME, that is a FACT.
Secondly, tyrays analogy to the boom and microphone is a false analogy when it comes to tonearm and cartridge, like Ralph alluded to above.
When i have been in a recording studio as a pro studio player, not once did I see the boom moving around any type of axis to follow what the mic was doing (Yikes). The boom had to remain in place, and in fact the goal was for it to be as stationary and stable as possible. Sure there are numerous other pieces of gear in play while the recording is going on, so what? This analogy is false.
Lastly, I have to say that I also think that Raul likes to argue for the sake of arguing, I have never once seen him admit that he could possibly be in error! The snippet that cd318 posted from the Origin Live website says a lot, even though I'm sure Raul will dispute that also!!! |
daveyf,
I have a question for you. And this is not for arguments sake. I'm just curious.
When a blank piece of vinyl is cut at the factory, in your opinion which is more important. The cartridge/stylus making the grooves or the tone arm?
Thanks |
Everyone who has many different cartridges and tonearms know very well what is more important (if tonearm and cartridge are matched together). And I assume we know how to align and adjust a cartridge/tonearm. Enough said. |
tyray164 posts:23pm "And I also think that Azimuth can only be adjusted on the headshell itself and not the tonearm, whether the headshell is removable or nonremovable. Thanks R!" my Blackbird has built in micrometer to adjust VTA, easy, precise, wonderful, but, the cartridge is fixed directly to the long carbon arm. Azimuth adjustment by rotating the carbon tube a speck in it’s snug rear housing, tighten with set screw. The SOB’s put the set screw on the bottom, what misery to get it right, the worst design feature. As azimuth is critically important, many a curse was issued, I should learn Russian to curse in their language. |
@chakster,
'And I assume we know how to align and adjust a cartridge/tonearm.'
I'm sure we all do but some are easier than others. The times I used to wish my decks had a detachable headshell like my first Rega 3 did. Of course they didn't because we were told detachable was very bad.
But was it really?
With the Rega there wasn't much need to manoeuvre. The square bodied Nagoaka cart was fairly straightforward to align and the mirror check revealed no issues either.
I remember having a couple of protractors for alignment and some were easier to use than others. I knew that with a 2 point protractor that the inner alignment point was critical to get right because of potential end of side tracking issues.
The Ittok on the Linn was fairly easy to adjust for height but it was not so easy to try out other arms on the LP12 because of the need for a specifically cut armboard. Besides we were regularly told that the Ittok was the best arm in the world (until the Ekos) so there was little incentive to bother.
I never found arm height to make difference so I kept to the recommended advice of keeping the arm parallel to the top-plate/platter.
It's important to get setup right but don't get too obsessive. There will always be the odd opera torture track that will give most arm/cart combos hiccups.
Perhaps it's time some brave soul out there tried out a multi cartridge tracking group test. Unsurprisingly the hi-fi press never bothered as the findings may have not been to their or their readers liking.
I do remember certain Shure cartridges being renowned for their tracking abilities. Perhaps it might be worth finding out what carts classical stations such as BBC Radio 3 used to employ in the days before they switched to digital.
Tracking and record care would have been vital to them as they then had one of the most impressive vinyl libraries in the world. |
@tyray I fail to see the relevance of the question in your last post?
The cutting tool that is mounted on the end of the arm on a cutting lathe at the time of the lacquer mastering is not a cartridge/stylus. But if you are asking if that cutter is more important than the arm to which it is attached to, i would say again.. no. If the arm that is directing the cutter is at all problematic, there goes the accuracy of the cut. |
I’m sure we all do but some are easier than others. The times I used to wish my decks had a detachable headshell like my first Rega 3 did. Of course they didn’t because we were told detachable was very bad.
But was it really?
No, they are not better
With the Rega there wasn’t much need to manoeuvre. The square bodied Nagoaka cart was fairly straightforward to align and the mirror check revealed no issues either.
Overhang must be spot on.
I remember having a couple of protractors for alignment and some were easier to use than others. I knew that with a 2 point protractor that the inner alignment point was critical to get right because of potential end of side tracking issues.
I use Dr. Feickert NG for all tonearms/cartridges.
I never found arm height to make difference so I kept to the recommended advice of keeping the arm parallel to the top-plate/platter.
Negative VTA can be problematic, positive VTA isn’t a problem. If you have Rega TT with Rega tonearm then you may find the VTA is negative and you can’t fix it, you can only add something between a cartridge and tonearm (or thicker mat). It’s important to get setup right but don’t get too obsessive. There will always be the odd opera torture track that will give most arm/cart combos hiccups. I do not have yet anything like that on any tonearm/cartridge I’m suing now (no miss tracking). The Hi-Fi News TEST LP is the best test for cartridge suspension and tracking abilities. I do remember certain Shure cartridges being renowned for their tracking abilities. Perhaps it might be worth finding out what carts classical stations such as BBC Radio 3 used to employ in the days before they switched to digital. Almost any good high compliance cartridge can do the same. The Grace LEVEL II for example, and it’s much better than any Shure. But Grace is a Japanese cartridge, you guys remember American cartridges only (and how they were advertised) @cd318 |
@chakster,
Good points. Yes, overhang simply has to be right. It hurts to think of that diamond not finding the best way through that spiral groove.
One thing that still puzzles me is the notion that the perceived sonic difference between moving magnet and moving coil designs was largely down to the better structural integrity of the latter with its non-removable stylus?
Is there any truth in this?
Since a lot of people use the Ortofon (blue and red) mm cartridges I wondered whether anyone had used that old trick of applying the tiniest drop of superglue to help further secure the plastic stylus assembly to the cartridge body?
Since you could still easily break off the assembly when it was eventually time to replace the stylus, it might be something worth considering. Perhaps even moreso with a used cartridge.
I think it was something first suggested by UK reviewer, the king of tweaks himself, Jimmy Hughes.
The notion seemed to gain further credibility when Linn brought out their K9 cartridge which featured a tiny Allen bolt on the front of the cartridge to secure the removable assembly (Linn had a thing for the the letter 'k' and its profile looked like Doctor Who's electronic dog).
Linn claimed that it helped with tracking and also resulted in a reduction in surface noise - and I tended to agree with them.
But that was over 15 years ago and perhaps today's moving magnet designs are better built.
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@cd318 there are many vintage MM and MI with fixed stylus holder assembly: Denon DL-107, ADC TRX series, Technics EPS100 and P100 series, SONY XL-50 ... There is a screw to tighten up removable stylus to the cartridge body.
Audio-Technica cartridges designed even better without that screw and a plastic stylus holder never fell apart and it sits firmly on AT-ML170 for example.
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atmasphere : "The big deal you’re going to find is that if the tonearm properly tracks the cartridge, then the choice of cartridge is far less important than people make it out. By ’properly track’ I mean that no matter what is in the grooves, the music is always relaxed and well-defined, no hint of stress or breakup; almost as if you were listening to tape." I would have to say that I disagree with this. There is a huge difference between my Benz Micro and my Koetsu Onyx. On well engineered recordings, it’s not really close. There is an audible difference between them and my Koetsu Rosewood Signature. Now, I suppose you could say that I don’t have the Benz "set up" properly. I have a Sumiko MMT arm in a VPI HW MK IV table. Do those components allow for the adjustments needed to "set up" properly, which in my 40 years of experience has simply meant to use that protractor-looking thingy and follow the instructions of each manufacturer, then fiddle until it sounds the best that I can make them? Thank you, ML |
Dear @unreceivedogma : You are rigth about. Problem is that that gentleman is really a " roockie " in that specific issue but he think as his followers is an expert and is far away from there., like it or not all of them unfortunatelly are wrong.
They have to learn as you learned and as many other audiophiles do it each single day, my self including.
Of course that with your Premier MMT tonearm you can make all the adjustment need it for any cartridge. That’s even today a very good tonearm design builded by Jelco under Sumiko specs and characteristics and quality level required by.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @cd318 : That K9 was manufactured by AT.
Btw, easy and with no risk at all you can fix any removable stylus cartridge using a good scotch tape like. The tension of the tape will help that resonances down there change its frequency hopping out of the range are disturbing more.
Don't use that drop of glue. Btw, I did it many many years ago with one of my ADC Astrion and when I wanted to change the stylus that was a little " trouble " or even if you want to put on sale the cartridge.
R. |
