Cardas Clear Speaker Cables?

While I have a little experience with the Cygnus, I have much more experience with Clear Reflections and Clear Beyond. The further up the chain you go, the more detailed and neutral they are. That is how they are designed. Warm to support lower level components and more neutral - detailed for higher level components. So, more energy and drive you will get with higher level Cardas. I have all Audio Research equipment and I want the most neutral interconnects and cables.,.. so I use Transparent... which is what they are.

So it is up to you how far you want to go. If a smaller step then Clear, more Clear Beyond, more than that I would switch over to Transparent.

If you are using Cygnus 4-wire conductor speaker cables now, and not getting enough energy out of if, its possible something else blocking upstream is going on, if I may suggest. Maybe something Clear or Clear Beyond is not going to solve for your specific goal. Yes, own(ed) and used both. And still use Clear, Clear Refl too. 

Cables:

How many feet long are the Cygnus speaker cables now?

How long are your interconnects from your preamp to the tube amp now?

Tube System:

Is it the 120 or 120SE model CJ amp?

Power Tubes - EL34 or KT120, or other output tubes?

Small signal/driver - what 6922s are installed now, or other?

Please share name/brand, model, age of tubes. For starters, any aged and dulled power tubes or input/driver tubes can also cause a veiled over result too fwiw. Same would go for any tube preamps used of course. Worth validating this too.

@ghdprentice - Thank you! That makes sense. I suppose part my curiosity on upgrading speaker cables is to possibly bring a bit more drive/energy/incisiveness to my tube-based system. The Gryphon has a compelling sense of drive. I was very intentional about purchasing an amp with a relaxed presentation (the CJ classic 120), so I guess we have to be careful what we ask for. :-) 

@decooney - I think part of it is simply my comparison to the Gryphon solid state amp. : -)

The CJ/LTA combo is very, very good. I am just wondering if I could make it better. 
 

Cygnus cables are 2 meters. I don’t suspect I’m having any tube issues. I did hear the EL 34 tubes start to lose some umph a few months ago and recently replaced them with new Mullard EL 34 tubes. The driver tubes are Amperex NOS from Brent Jesse and seem to be holding strong. I don’t semse any degradation there. Interconnects are 1 meter Cardas Clear. 
 

I have the classic edition with El 34 tubes. I’d been looking for more of the classic CJ sound and was advised the SE editions were going the opposite direction. 

@decooney - I think part of it is simply my comparison to the Gryphon solid state amp. : -) The CJ/LTA combo is very, very good. I am just wondering if I could make it better.

Good, agree - no particular cable-length issues, and its good you have the Clear ICs.

As for tube combinations - I suspect you might have a little extra richness goodness going on combining the Amperex small signal tubes with the new-reissue Mullard EL34 power tubes together. I have various new re-issue Mullard’s and they all tilt more to the rich midrange and veiled over top end vs the more clarity detailed side like others can have. fyi, one of the known headphone reviewers out there just re-compared the new re-issue (extra rich) Mullard EL34s to the new (more transparent) Ray EL34s tubes [for example]. He felt the Rays were more resolving on the top end, more balanced, with more clarity and nuance - comparatively. You could ask others on the CJ forums about various EL34s there too in your 120 amp.

A few colleagues of my own over the past year recently had a similar concern, even after trying better cables, and we discussed replacing the re-issue EL34s with new re-issue Gold Lyon KT77s to open things up a little more. And/or the new Ray Tubes EL34 Select, or new PSVane Horizon Series EL34s could work too. Its worked for others.  You can check with your amp. Ask those guys on the CJ forum too. I was chatting with members there when I jumped back into KT120s, it helped.  

Syrup + added Syrup = more syrup, fwiw. Sometimes it can be too much of a good thing is what many might share.

Note I can also go install any of the new-reissue small signal Mullard’s in my amps right now and this also makes for more rich and veiled over top end with less transparency in my amps, even when biased precisely.

I don’t know that jumping to Cardas Clear speaker cables [immediately] is the first move I’d make without checking this first. The Cygnus are a tad more grainy and detailed than std Clear being a little smoother to my ear, fwiw. Best of luck.

I would try the Silversmith Fidelium cables for a 30 day trial period, they sound great in my system. I sold my Cardas cables after hearing them. Happy listening.

@decooney - Incredibly helpful. Thank you! 

I'm somewhat new to the audio equipment world. I've often read that one's taste will evolve as one tries different equipment over time. Initially, I'd set out to build a relaxed and somewhat warm sounding system. I think, to your point, the relaxed QLN speakers along with the EL34 tubes and, to top it off, a DAC that has a reputation for being non-forward, leaves the system without a sense of bite or incisiveness. Lot's of spaciousness and air. Just little in the way of attack. 

I'll definitely restock my CJ 120 with those recommended tube amps on this next go-around. Great advice. Thank you agaain! 

@joeyfed55 - I will look into those, Joey! Thank you!  

Depends how much bite or incisiveness you want as to whether tube type or speaker cables will get you there. If you’re looking for the CJ amp to sound more like the Gryphon I don’t think you’ll get there with either. The Mullard EL 34 are warmer and more laid back than say Genalex KT77 so a tube change like that could help a little bit. Siemens or Telefunken small signal tubes will also liven things up. I’d try changing both tube types individually before cables. The Clear cables will give you more detail but probably not the energy and drive you’re looking for when compared to the Cygnus. I remember when you were seeking advice on the “older” CJ sound. As it turns out, could the more “modern” CJ sound have been what you were looking for 🤔. You can always upgrade the CJ amp to the SE version. Probably not what you want to hear though 😁.

To @bluethinker sure, no worries. Yes you have the correct understanding of what might be occurring here. For your awareness - this is really no different than many of us have experienced over many different speakers, amps, tube, cable, source, and or room changes too.

Where you may have gotten off course was the former output tubes wearing down, and you went out and bought the re-issue Mullard’s. I had the same thing occur with my preamp a few years back, I wanted to spare my vintage 6SN7 quad of tubes, put in the new Mullard’s in and while it had nice warm body, I lost some of the detail and zing on top. Some of these tubes are designed this way on purpose.

I did not want to mention further sending you down a Rabbit hole, but the small signal vintage Telefunken like @marco1 mentioned is one trick or the GL KT77s (more open and detailed), and some others like basic JJ EL34s are more detailed but have less body etc. Its just a balancing act. This is why I mentioned the Ray tubes, (not public, ime they are upper line tested PSVanes) relabeled and sold as Ray, and some folks in the headphone seen are commenting they have a little more air/upper detail with a nice balance, still kind of neutral. Its really as simple as you might be imagining. I dont know if the new PSVane Horizon is more neutral or not in an EL34. That might be worth asking on the CJ forum if anyone has tried them yet. Tubes can sound differently in different amp brands / models / circuits as you may know.

A few of us replied to "wait" and "not buy speakers cables yet" because we know that changing upstream tubes or amp tubes or maybe you could borrow (demo) another DAC from someone real quick to test that too. Sounds like a lot of it tilted you to the warm direction. Maybe one change at one or two of these upstream can tilt it back to more open, detailed, airy, and dynamic. We all go through this when we started - pairing up a bunch of components not originally designed to work together.  

So we go back and fine tine up/down the stack here and there til it balances out where we want the sound to go - and so forth.

Agree with @decooney except using JJ tubes 😎. Quite frankly, never used a JJ tube that I liked. They’re cheap and coupled with the fact that your amp needs a bunch of ‘em you’ll be tempted. I just replaced a set of reissue Mullard EL34 with Genalex KT 77 in an amp of mine and based on what I’m hearing they should do what you’re looking to do with your Classic 120’s. Whether it will be enough, only you can determine that. But it’s a good place to start and much cheaper than NOS Telefunken’s or Clear Speaker cables.  Oh, but definitely check first with CJ to be sure you can use KT 77’s.