Lucky you, Face! I'm having to settle for the lesser VSF coppers in my speakers. Let us know how the Casts sound. |
Ok, I placed an order for a pair of CAST's. This wait is going to feel like forever. |
ASC power supply caps.
They are made by Jensen. I may have been the only one not to know that.
I read somewhere that Angela Jensen and Audio Note are all exactly the same. Is this correct?
Duelund I read on Tempo you had 630v caps yet parts connexion says only 400v? Can you fill us in? |
Face
I agree with you expensive experiments indeed. (but the yield can be equally rewarding)
My speakers are not good for soundstage anyway so that was not an issue for me. Tonality, timbre and dynamics was what mattered for me. Now I could not give that up. I can't say how many times I can tell what the instrument is now that I had no idea.
If Duelund VSF Copper (not heard Aluminum) had a weakness against other top poly caps they may not be quite as quiet. The CAST being designed for horns certainly are but I would have no idea how they compare on a soundstage basis. |
Face the duelunds are better in speakers probably in most cases.. The Mr's might do something very special with certain designs or drivers...
However MR's are king for perfection in full range signal applications, meaning preamp outputs, amp coupling caps etc... Just as good as you can expect. |
Further impressions of Duelund VSF vs. Clarity MR.
I recently replaced the capacitor in series with my mid with a pair of large Claritycap MR's. After getting some hours on them, it appears they're not a good match for metal(magnesium) drivers. What started out as a subtle difference in transparency because harshness. Nothing terrible, but I prefer a smoother or warm sound. I then replaced them with an aluminum Duelund VSF. Out of the box, the VSF sounded dark in comparison. Now that I have about 10-15 hours on them, they're starting to open up and sound very smooth.
Now I'm really on the fence in as what to do with my HF circuit. I'm very pleased with the sound of MR's, the imaging and soundstage are to die for, and they're very dynamic and quiet. But Duelund still wins for tonality. Since I have a few small value MR's laying around, I'm not sure if I want to parallel a MR and either a VSF or CAST and hope for the best of both worlds, or try all CAST. Either way, it's an expensive experiment. |
ASC caps arrived today.
Holy Crap they are big! I knew they were big but Holy Smokes! |
Sherod
That was funny!
I was talking to a guy here who used to own two Stereo stores and said the output transformers are like wine and that they get better with age?
Anyone care to speculate how that happens? |
Was that Hifisoundguy or his girlfriend just posting? (o: |
Quicksilver Gold gets you a lot better performance than just replacing the crossover parts by theirself. Replacing the crossover parts only gets you a small improvement...when adding QSG it gives you a "BIG IMPROVEMENT" |
Looking forward to hearing what a large guage (10) low DCR inductor means.
Also looking forward to what Duelund hook up wire will do as well.
Looking forward to see what power supply upgrade does.
But the main one I am looking forward to is coupling caps.
I am going to try two caps V-Cap Teflons and Duelund VSF.
According to Peter Qvortrup
“ It is becoming increasingly obvious that applying transformers at every stage of an amplifier yields a great benefit in sound quality, provided of course that the transformer in question is of an appropriate quality and design. Replacing any coupling capacitors with a well designed and correctly matched driver or interstage transformer yields an almost shocking improvement in sound and should be tried to fully understand what a good wideband transformer has to offer. ”
Peter Qvortrup
http://www.audionotekits.com/monob01.html
Does this mean that coupling caps are a great area of weakness? |
Ait
Now if I had a livingroom system that would be different. Mine is a basement system.
I had a livingroom system at the start of this thread but the ugly vintage system with the Duelund caps and vintage tube amp smoked my new gear so bad I sold it. (still have what was a fully loaded LP12 from a few years ago) The new gear won the beauty contest but that's it! Interesting how so much stuff goes overseas now. 1 amp went to Russia pre amp to Thailand. Only the speakers went local and one amp to Michigan. |
Thanks Ait
That was the issue why the guy fixing it was taking so long. He could not find ones that fit into the can.
These of course will not fit in the can. That is an issue to many. The look thing and height thing to go in the case. My amp is not in the case and I do not care what it looks like. So I understand they can be wired under or on top?
An amp like yours which is nice looking is one thing. To me vintage amps (most of them) are ugly. So if holes need to be drilled or whatever so what. As long as it works.
I guess something like this pic.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232384 |
Thanks Dave
Might be out of my budget and league. I just went off the Tempo review giving the ASC X386 Tier A. I am going to rebuild all of my vintage amps if this works out. For at least safety reasons.
What do power supply caps sound like when they go bad or do they just blow up?! |
If space allows, consider building an all film PS with Mundorf polyprop Tubecaps. I've been breaking in several pairs in my Atma preamp-- and they sound great. |
Low ESR = good
High Ripple Current = good
ASC caps are film caps; film caps are always preferable to electrolytics. And they are huge. I use Solens in the power supply of my Supratek preamp (replacing electrolytics) and they are definitely an improvement over the stock e-lytics. You need lots of room, however, to replace an electrolytic with a film, and I don't think your piece has that kind of room. |
Tempo Electric says that ASC is the best in the power supply. They sure are massive! Is that a good thing? |
Ait (everyone)
Can you give me an idea of what the difference is on a good power supply cap? Just more power reserves? Less noise?
Do power supply caps weaken or just blow? How do vintage compare to best ones today? |
Separate caps may be better if you use better quality caps. The caps in multi-section cans are not necessarily the best. Mundorf is likely to be pretty good, but I've never used their electrolytics.
Yes 40+40 means (2) 40uf in one can. |
Ait
Is 4 separate caps a better way?
When Mundorf sells a 40+40uf is that the same as 2 40uf's? |
Tell him to use 4 separate new caps instead of the multi-section can if he can't find one. He can mount them under the chassis or in the old can if they fit (he'll need to clean out the old guts from the can for the latter). If they are mounted underneath, he can leave the old can in place for looks.
Antique Electronics Supply has some new multi-section can caps; look there maybe you'll get lucky. If not, do the above. |
My one amp that is slow as ever getting back, my tech guy says he needs a 40uf, 40uf, 10uf 10uf all 450 volt caps in a can. Any advice on brand or where?
Thanks |
Undertow, sorry about that but my Girlfriend posted that last thread on the Quicksilver gold tweak. This is how I did this tweak, the new crossover parts were already solded to the crossover board and I let them break-in for about 3 months before I did this tweak to them. Next I cleaned the lead wires coming out out of the crossover caps and resistors with Caigs contact cleaner. I also cleaned the clip on connectors of my hook-up wires from my crossover board to my speaker drivers. I did not replace my inductors but I did chip off some of the coating of the inductors and clean it with Caigs too and then waited about 2 hours before I put the Quicksilver gold on. Next I put some Quicksilver gold on all the places I cleaned. Then I let it break-in really good for about 28 days and it seem to still improve for another 30 days or so after that. If anyone waits to get a big improvement out of their speakers this is the way to get it! |
Volleyguy,
The President of Reference 3a has already told me that the Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil is superior to the aluminum/paper in oil type in there now. The two Duelunds are better yet still. I have already committed to the Duelund VSF for both speakers and am hoping for great things. I'll have them in about a week so soon I'll report on the sound with them in. |
Sherod
Either cap is great. I think the VSF are a good deal in audio. You get a plastic free super natural sounding cap at yes somewhat more than other caps like twice Mundorf Silver in Oil. But to me worth it. If it is any consolation I marvel at the sound of them and have long since forgot what I spent. (and I do not throw money away easy) Have you ever thought about trying just one cap like the tweeter cap to see if it is worth to you.
I started with one cap thinking the worst thing is I was throwing away $150 or so. I know if someone said to me you are going to have $2k (in just caps) in the crossover I would not have done it. (I know I would not have done it) When you start small you can get a better mental handle on whether it is worth it. |
What? First Not sure why contact enhancer would do anything accept dissapate like Flux once you hit it with heat and the solder actually would just clear it and adhears to the metal component directly most likely just pushing the contact enhancer out of the way or turning it into fumes...
Unless when you use a silver solder like WBT etc... When you apply it the gold and it actually melts and mixes into the solder while wet and gives you a gold solder connection sheen instead of bright silver?
I really don't see how this is of any benefit to a connection before or after soldering said connection. I have not tried it so maybe the treament simply melts and mixes into the solder while its liquid metal, and the gold is really that much better than the silver in the solder, don't know, but maybe the explained method here is just not making any sense.
Contact enhancers normally are to be used in order to lubricate and "Enhance" a connection point that is not permanently fixed by solder at all.. Such as the pins on the power cord to your wall giving the unlike metals in your outlet and your power pins a conductive liquid barrier due to mechanical movement and fit keeping it with full current flow and contact even if its a bit loose or not totally tight contacting all surface areas of the metal connection.
I have used it on Quick connects inside the speaker however where the cheap TIN spades on the drivers could use a good corrosion preventer and liquid conductive material without having to Fix the connect permanent with solder.
Your better off Sanding or Steel wooling your Crossover parts leads to break down the coating and then solder if you want a more prepped or clean joint, I just don't see the benefit of wasting a 100 dollar contact cleaner/enhancer on this joint and soldering it after. Again most likely if somebody does here an "Enhancement" from this, its most likely due to receiving the crossover parts and not cleaning them before solder, in turn simply applying an enhancer at more expense to give you that cleaner lead to solder.
Not arguing just don't get the reason, use some sand paper on the cap and inductor leads and probably get the same results, or just buy a solder with some gold content in it. |
Sherod...I'm not talking about putting QuickSilver GOLD contact enhancer on SOLDER connections. I'm saying before you solder the part on the crossover board put a little QuickSilver Gold above where your going to solder the end connection on the inductors. On your crossover caps you put it on the Lead wires coming out of the cap. Same thing on the resistors you put it on the Lead wires coming out of the resistor. On the hook-up wire from the crossover board to the speaker drivers you put it on the bare wire of the cables (NOT) on the (Solder connections). It takes about 28 days for the QSG to brake-in really GOOD and will still improve up to 60 days. I think this is the best upgrade you can do to a speaker to take them to a whole new level!.... |
Qsg is a great contact enhancer, but it is of no use on soldered connections.
Reference 3a is famous for their "minimal" approach to crossovers. My Dulcet mini-monitors have no cap at all on the mid/woofer. It is direct-coupled to the amp. I'm not sure how the crossovers are on the multiple-driver upper models. The tweeters on the Dulcet have one cap and one resistor and shunt. Very simple, time and phase correct. |
I recently heard a demo of Grand Veena presented by the President of Ref 3A at a local audio club. Beautiful treble & midrange-- in those sections I don't think they use any crossover at all. He mentioned that he uses Mundorf-- probably just for LF-- which was the weakness of that speaker. Duelund is likely above their $8K price point. |
I was informed recently from a key person at Reference 3a that their favorite caps for their speaker crossovers are in the following order:
1. Duelund Cast Copper oil
2. Duelund VSF copper
3. Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil
I am in the process of upgrading my Reference 3a Dulcet caps with the Duelund VSF copper. I would prefer the new Cast copper, but too much for my budget. |
It does'nt matter how GOOD the speaker crossover part your replacing is.. QuickSilver GOLD contact enhancer will take it to the next level!.... |
|
I haven't tried the aluminium VSF's, but from what I've heard from others is that they are less refined and a little flatter in presentation. |
Can anyone comment on the differences between Dueland VSF aluminum vs. copper when used as a high-pass filter to a tweeter? |
Irish65
That is good to hear about Duelund's consistent sonic signature. (for inductors) From what I have heard (VSF and CAST) they sound similiar you are paying for a huge reduction in resonance.
That was the reason for (me) getting 10AWG North Creek less up front money.
My inductor comparison will involve only 2 at most. The other being Duelund's WPIO.
I totally agree on the crossover as the heart of the system. Something I never would have thought before. |
Duelund
I did get a chuckle on the adding "It is not a cost effective solution"! |
Volleyguy,
The WPIO receive the same 5 day vacuum impregnation.
We do 12 awg normally, and 8 awg on special request. (It is not a cost effective solution) |
Irish65
As you have mentioned you read a ton and then just started buying the parts. I would love to hear what you found out?
Clearly you have valuable experience to share. Most of us may not ever hear CAST AG caps or whatever else you have found out. In your upgrade path clearly you must have been thrilled (or something kept you going) with what was happening or you would not have kept going to better/more expensive parts?
Like what was the most important upgrade and most cost effective. In your experience you must have that some parts were good some great and some good for the $ involved. I would imagine many would love to hear. It is no doubt part of your recommendation (and others) that I have tried North Creek.
Have you done coupling caps? |
Volleyguy,
I could throw out numerous adjectives as to how the North Creek inductors compare to the Duelund Cast. But in the end what will that accomplish? From your own tests with comparing Duelund caps with others this has provided you with an education and a definitive upgrade path.
This same course of action with the inductors will yield the same results. I will say inductors are worth the money spent testing them.
I will add this about the Duelund's. They have a consistent sonic signature throughout their product line. Very natural and organic. For me it is worth every penny of the price of admission.
The Duelund Cast inductors compared to the North Creek is like going from a VSF to a Cast only larger.
Get both and sell the loser here. If it is a common value you will not lose money and to top it of you improved your system and added an education in for free.
Someday I am going to try a silver Cast inductor and compare it to the copper.
From my experience the crossover is the heart of the system and a well designed crossover with high quality parts is the way to go. I make people laugh on how much I have spent on crossover parts. But in the end I laugh because they spend more on a power cord for their system then what their crossover is worth. Do not get me wrong a power cord will benefit a system. However, if funds were an issue I would not hesitate to use a stock power and put my money on the crossover. |
Thanks Duelund
Sorry just one more question are all CAST inductors 8AWG I thought they were 12AWG? Is this a special case?
The WPIO are not done under vacuum for 5 days are they? Are you talking about the CAST inductors only?
My choice (budget wise) was your WPIO or another brand. (not that I would not want CAST)
I have never replaced a woofer inductor and can clearly hear what the CAST does on the tweeter caps but is it my pig headedness that thinks that a low freq inductor would not be as critical to resonance? |
Volleyguy,
Regarding pricing:
The price of our inductors is based on the expenditure and working hours we spend, a lot like everybody else I presume.
The foil we require is quite expensive to procure, then the winding with paper and subsequent oil impregnation under vacuum for 5 days also cost us a pretty penny. (I believe we are the only ones to do this with inductors, though I may be wrong).
Finally, the casting proces is done entirely in house and takes another 5 days, everything done by hand.
This is not to boast about our own products, but a normal inductor often takes from 1 minute - 1 hour to make. We spend at least 14 days, where the inductor is actively "under way". Which in the end has an impact on cost.
Also since we typically deal in small quantities we find that buying raw materials tend to be expensive. An example is a pair of CAST 8 AWG inductors we made for an upcoming US speaker, where we had to buy a minimum quantity of foil much larger than the pair of inductors required.
Again, I hope this presentation will be seen as being in good taste. But since you asked directly about cost, I felt the need to elaborate. |
Ait
So does that make the Duelund WPIO inductor better in the sense that it is wrapped in paper? There must be less interference?
Irish65 I wish you could say what you thought was better about Duelund or why you thought it to be that way? Your opinion could mean a lot as you have tried many components. |
One thing about shielding - although it decreases the radiated EMI, it also changes the inductance of the inductor being shielded, by as much as 20%. The magnetic field is where the energy storage occurs in an inductor, so messing with it will change the inductor's parameters. So either you adjust for the loss by buying a bigger inductor to start with, or you live with 20% lower inductance than spec. |
Thanks Irish
I have talked to him knows his stuff.
How does North Creek compare to others? (ex Duelund) Big improvement? |
Volleyguy,
Talk to George @ North Creek. Numerous loudspeaker companies hire him as a consultant for their crossovers. He will provide you a wealth of info. I have used the North Creek inductors (8 awg) on a few application and there was never a downside. In fact it always improved the crossover with them in.
I was hearing the same things as you so I bought numerous inductors and conducted my own test.
Get the 8 awg North Creek inductors if funds do not permit the Duelund Cast. Or get them both and decide for yourself. |
Hi Dave
Is there any negative to lower DCR? At the price of North Creek 8 guage is getting close to Duelund WPIO time you add in shipping. (Duelund has close to original DCR with 12 guage)
Do you have your inductors in yet? I am still looking at 8 guage that is why I ordered just one inductor for now. Plus shipping to Canada oddly enough can be cheaper for one inductor than two if it goes below USPS shipping weight limit.
Yes I know SET is very happy with his 8 guage and of course he changed the DCR of his speakers. Some say bad idea? I just don't know? |
I don't have enough experience with inductors to know which types tend to cause interference. However, the large Alphacore air-core inductors that I'm using as HF analog filters in my CDP, were intially a bear in terms of EMI fireworks. The problem was tamed through careful positioning. EMI/RFI cages are another approach, but one must be cautious lest excessive shielding smother sonics. |
Irish65 did you notice a difference in crosstalk from your CAST to North Creek? |
Volleyguy,
Please call North Creek and change your Inductor guage to 8 guage so you will be happy. I have the 8 guage for the Klipsch KLF-2O . Set-12 on Audio Karma has the 8 guage on his Klipsch Forte speakers. I think you will find the bass improved like Duelund improves the mid and tweeter frequencies.
David Pritchard |
Dgarretson is that another built in cost difference for duelund style of inductor? The WPIO or CAST does it have a large EMI? I would guess not? Is that why Irish65 thinks the Duelund better? Clearly the DCR would be higher on Duelund so is it oil/silk? or inductor cross talk? |
