Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil
Retesting the CAST vs. VSF tweeter caps. The CAST cut tweeter output by at least 50% in my mind compared to VSF. (two in each circuit) Now is this all increased resonance in the VSF? It would be nice to hear fom Duelund on this as this is huge difference. I was confused when I heard two CAST vs. two VSF before as I did not expect such a change? I am still shocked! Almost like a resistor in circuit? Duelund if I check ohms both caps will be the same? Is all the extra VSF sound just resonance? I have to agree with Steen even his VSF you can hear the tweeter cap all over the signal. In my opinion skip the VSF in the tweeters and go for the CAST but you are going to get more bass from the less high freq. Ait have you retested? I am going to wire up the speakers for now though anyway and get back to finishing the amp or Duelund is going to have me broke! The Jensen for anyone interested are a low res cap like the CAST lower then the VSF which is all about tone. The Jensen weakness is in the midrange not being as natural. Next week I am ordering more Jensen and Duelund to finish project. |
Roxy54 I was a ticked man who did not know why my new gear could not touch this old stuff and I had to find out why? (personality trait or flaw) I don't subscribe to the vintage is better thing so I had to understand why? Foil caps with no plastic. Plastic permeates so much of most modern hi-fi. No doubt due to cost. There is one major rock I did not overturn and that would be a SET amp. Also never went down the Silver wire or caps route. (just out of my league) |
"Of course digital can not generate this "treble air"." Sure it can. Try upsampling. My Zero One Mercury CD/HD player has selectable oversampling and upsampling from 44kHz to 196KHz. I find that the oversampling modes (even multiples of 44KHz such as 176KHz) sound much cleaner and more natural then the upsampling modes (such as 196KHz), which tend to introduce the "treble air" you speak of. At first it sounds like an enhancement, but soon it starts grating on my nerves. I can also select the high-frequency filter to be the typical brickwall or several more gentle slopes; I find the HQ2 setting the best (between brickwall and very shallow slope) - too shallow a slope and you get unwanted high-frequency stuff introduced to the components that makes it sound markedly worse, too steep and you get noticable ringing on HF notes. Finally, I can also choose the dither setting used to reduce noise - in this case I prefer no dither at all. |
Since getting an all foil signal chain of vintage and then massively improving with Duelund I have only one nagging question? In the begining of this thread I took as fact my Linn Lp12 sounded great and the Linn Karik a piece of junk capable of making everything sound dead and plastic. Well several K$'s in Duelund parts and my CD player sounds awesome. Crazy super natural sounding! Just mind boggling. Now my Lp12 (almost a loaded one before recent updates) can sound very good but there is always present a slight groove noise that is clear to me know. Even on mint (almost never played) vinyl. It gets worse as you move through the LP. The stylus is not very old either. Now if one thinks about it. Why would there NOT be almost a static high freq sound caused by the rubbing of diamond on vinyl? Also it should get worse as the stylus moves faster in the groove. So after ditching 150+ lps because of clear wear and have more to ditch. I have thought about getting rid of the turntable maybe as well. This is not what I thought was going to happen by getting high quality parts. I believe the "treble air" I thought was some unique part of the vinyl "live" experience is really just high freq static mechanically generated. Of course digital can not generate this "treble air". |
Hmmm interesting Dave. I have always wondered why Audio is not clear cut like video. Put 10 guys in a room and they will mostly like the same TV as the best and will not have big disagreements either way. Ask the same question about Audio and you could have 10 different systems picked. So 10 people looking for a different levels of microphony? Most music we reference (in our minds) was amplified so of course it would have had noise when we heard it. Another thing I bet is most of the guys spending money on high end (low resonant) caps are older. I find as I age I like less resonance. I become frustrated by noise yet still want "treble air". For me it is going to be a combo of Jensen, Duelund VSF and CAST when noise needs to be reduced. "I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects". I think it is exactly that. |
"We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise?" I think you've touched the white elephant in the room with most audio systems. IMO the perceived liveliness and so-called treble air of a lesser system is riding up on top of an underlying noise level that casual listeners find impressive. Along these lines, after recently treating various components with AVM anti-resonance paint, my first impression was the contradictory sense of qualities both gained and lost. But after further listening, it became clear that despite a slight perception of treble darkness, treble detail and extension had actually been improved. It was particularly impressive to apply this paint to monolithic DSPs and op amp chips, the tops of electrolytic caps, resistor bodies, and tiny closely spaced circuit traces in CDP and Merlin line-stage BBAM. I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects. |
Daz_Bike I do remember liking it CAST/VSF over the other way but not something huge. Of course YMMV. It has been well talked about how a circuit will take a caps characteristics. What I think helps in the thread is you can expect the same as others have got. The CAST do not resonate so this may be good for you but you WILL get less noise and this tilts the sound to more bass. My feeling is that the circuit takes the sound of the last cap the most? I like the bloom of the VSF. We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise? I suspect it is a the Clarity white paper says all caps resonate at a high freq so we are used to it. |
No way I can fit a VSF into the EQ/buffer amp. It is very small and the 10uF of Mundorfs only fit because I am using a cascade of 6.8uF, 3.3uF and 0.33uF (see picture in link). I need 10uF to reach a low frequency -3dB point of 2Hz with my amp. RSIIb LF Equalizer I have tried eliminating the EQ altogether, but it is needed for the RSIIb speakers for low bass extension and integration between the cone woofers and midrange panels. I have done extensive mods to the EQ, so it is now very transparent to all but the low frequencies it is meant to affect. To my taste, the CAST/Mundorf combo is very nice - the bit of added splash on top appeals to me. |
Ait Your comment on the bass on CAST. I would not argue at all. My speakers were known to be bass shy. So the CAST were tailor made. I do not think they overstate the bass though. My feeling (like Steen said) is that all other caps resonate high freq.. CAST do not resonate at all that I can find. So no high freq is added so seems like more bass. I agree with you but you might want to try a VSF after the CAST. I have done this in the tweeters and really like it. The VSF have all the tonality and do resonate somewhat. I find the CAST more demanding on upstream components and source material. VSF is a very forgiving part. Technically not as good as CAST but works for me. I expect to always use a combination. By the way the Jensen is along the same lines as the CAST. |
Actually, I'm now running the CAST in my preamp and a combination of Mundorf Supreme and Supreme Silver/oil in the following low frequency equalizer/buffer. I find that when I connect the preamp directly I get more of the CAST sound (natural, quiet, tonally accurate) with bass that is slightly overstated. When I put the EQ/buffer in line between the preamp and amp, the Mundorfs give me more spaciality and 3D soundstage together with the Duelund tonality, and reduce the bass just enough that it is no longer overpowering. I experimented a bit and found that the use of ~10uF of Supreme together with .33uF of silver/oil gives me the best combination of detail and smoothness in the EQ application. So I'm finding that I like the Duelund/Mundorf combination best at this time. YMMV |
Running all low res caps on one channel. In the amp Jensen Copper Paper tube Duelund VSF (one) and CAST tweeter caps vs. higher resonance VSF tweeter caps in other speakers and vinage caps in the amp. When you put them all together the difference is HUGE! Dynamics are not even close. MUCH more dynamic in low resonance channel. Now to pull out that amp (put in same cap in both channel amp) and just isolate just the tweeter caps. Duelund in my estimation if the cap resonates you get more perceived high freq sound at the loss of dynamics and bass? Also another question is there a point where the cap is phyically as large as needed? Diminishing return? This exercise has been extremely worth it. Duelund don't read this next part. (just kidding) I think one can get much of the Duelund natural sound (if cost is a factor) using the Jensen Copper Paper tubes before the Duelund in the same amp circuit. I think Jensen would be a much better choice then any poly cap. |
Sorry Face What I meant by that is yes there was no comparison before from 2 VSF in series to 2 CAST in series but I really liked 1 CAST followed by 1 VSF. I thought it sounded at least 80% the way to CAST at much less cost. It seems strange how when in series the circuit will take on much of the characteristic of the stronger cap. What I mean is are 2 CAST (series) worth the extra expense. I have to work from memory because I can not compare 1 CAST 1 VSF to 2 CAST's. My original thought is it was not and maybe I could spend more wisely elsewhere. Just rechecking before I start to solder in Duelund wire. |
Attn: Duelund Any chance of making the VSF coppers in a round-type shape for easier installation in electronics. I just installed a pair of the flat VSF coppers in my preamp and although the sound is fabulous, it was a nightmare shoe-horning these in to work. Unfortunately, I can't put the preamp top lid back on, but the sound is still worth it for me for the time being. (o: |
Duelund so I take that to mean Steen liked the CAST better or felt them technically superior? (which they are) Been busy with work lately. I want to retest the CAST vs. VSF (tweeter caps in speakers) on amp with all the same caps. Trying to figure out where to go from here but am very happy even right here. |
I finally got the nerve(and funds) to buy a pair of Duelund VSF coppers for the outputs of my preamp. I've had a pair of the Claritycap MR caps in there for the last few months so I'm anxious to hear the differences. The ClaritycaP MR replaced some Hovlands. As I've previously stated, replacing aluminum caps on my tweeters with the Duelund VSF coppers was a revelation, so I'm hoping that I'll get similar improvements in the preamp. Stay tuned. |
Well, Duelund, I'd like to skip the equalizer, but the speakers were designed to use it, so I'm working to make the equalizer the best it can be. The output caps are 220uF aluminum electrolytic bypassed with 3.3uF metallized PP, bypassed with 0.01uF PP film and tin foil. They actually sound pretty good now that I put the .01uF bypass on there. |
Duelund I can not argue with that (devoid of false detail) at all on the CAST. The caps are fantastic in design, no doubt. When I installed the CAST tweeter caps I put my ear to the tweeter astonished how pure the sound was. They made your own VSF caps sound noisy. On the other side that noise made by most caps we have become accustomed too. It can even be thought of as "life" to the recording. So is Ait missing the "false detail"? I have to admit to this myself having a VSF after the CAST and liking it and knowing that the VSF adds false detail. (through resonance) In fact you got me thinking again I am going to put the two CAST tweeter caps back in again. It was something I was considering anyway (buying two more CAST tweeter caps) as CAST cuts noise by a shocking amount. Please do not take this as criticism as I do not find other caps even close to yours in making super natural sounds. |
I just finished listening for 4 hours or so, a large part of it Tom Waits. I really think I like the CAST in the preamp and Supreme/Audiocap Theta in the equalizer better than the CAST in the preamp alone. Tom's unmistakeable voice just has a little more life to it, maybe it is from the Mundorf/Audiocap or maybe from the active components in the equalizer, but the equalizer was a negative influence until I added the bypass caps to the Supremes. Based on these results, I think I'll be adding Theta bypasses to the Supremes in my Infinity crossovers as well. |
Ait Tony did say that the Vishay's did help all caps except the Duelund's if I remember right? But bypassing for sure seems to have people for and against it. The Duelund CAST are a little tight they reduce high freq by nature, most of it noise. I really like a VSF in the circuit. I find them to be the most "alive" of any of the caps. I kind of have been trying to say that on this thread that yes the CAST are the king but the VSF's are something special as well. In my tweeter circuit in series I have tried two CAST and two VSF and one of each. I found two VSF resonate too much. Two CAST extremely quiet and one CAST followed by a VSF just about right for me. If I had a choice I would say I like the sound 80% of the way to CAST. (from VSF) Speaking of that very same subject my feeling on this is a low resonance cap early in the circuit say the phono or pre-amp and then the VSF at the end. The VSF brings "life" (some of that through resonance) to the sound that is uncanny. I would say both the CAST and Jensen Copper Tube types are both exremely low resonance caps and the VSF has more. It is only now with the VSF in the circuit with the Jensen Copper Tube caps that I can say there is nothing better about the vintage caps. Sound is now "alive". The Jensens are a very good cap excellent dynamics very quiet no plastic tone but like Steen said you have no doubt that this sound comes from a stereo and not real people or instruments. On Norah Jones Painters Song I could hear a full life sized accordion. I have heard the song many times but only now did it click in what the sound was? On a worn out Beatles White Album last song on side three Long, Long, Long was an organ. (heard that MANY times) This happens over and over with the Duelund parts. Random sounds can be identified for what they are. Ait I am going to give that link a read. I do understand where you are coming from on the CAST though, liking the more high freq extension. Although I am not sure it is high freq extension. I tried the VSF vs. the CAST on music with violins and the CAST made the violins more dynamic and louder while at the same time the signal was quieter. The CAST are so quiet (noise wise) they are disorientating. Ait I would say give it some time for your brain to adjust as well. I bet Steen either used a combintation of VSF and CAST or all VSF? Not sure if he had passed away before the CAST came out? |
If you're interested in why small value bypass caps work, check out this link. Check out the scope traces that clearly show how bypassing (and/or DC biasing - but that's another story) reduces hysteresis (straight line = good, anything else = bad). Even nasty tantalum and aluminum electrolytic caps can be made to look presentable. Notice also how the paper-in-oil caps improve; might the already wonderful Duelunds get even better with a bypass? Hysteresis and Bypass Caps |
Here's a little trick I found for improving the sound of the Mundorf Supremes in an equalizer I'm using. I love the tonal balance of the Duelunds in my preamp, and I wanted to see what would happen when I put the low-frequency equalizer that comes with my Infinity RSIIb speakers between the preamp and the amps. The equalizer came with the RSIIbs to boost the very low frequencies and help the transition from the two 10" woofers to the planar EMIM midranges. I had rebuilt the equalizer with premium parts including Mundorf Supreme coupling caps. When I put it back in line with the preamp (with Duelunds), I noticed that it added a little high-frequency glare and graininess to the sound that I hadn't noticed before, and removed some of the gorgeous tonality of the Duelunds. I have remedied harshness problems with tweeters in some other speakers by adding a .01uF Audiocap Theta tin foil and PP film bypass cap, so I tried it with the Supremes, and low and behold it really helped greatly! The tonality is not exactly equal to the preamp (with Duelunds) alone, but it is a lot closer, with a bit more treble extension than the Duelunds alone (I think I like it, actually). I later noticed that Tony Gee had done this to Mundorf Supremes using Vishay MKP caps as the bypass, with similar results, so I figure that it's not my imagination. The Thetas are only $3-4 each at Parts Express, so it's a cheap tweak you may want to try if you want to improve the sound of Mundorf Supremes. |
Duelund I for sure can not argue on the goals of recreating a "live" sound. I listened to the EL4 for several hours with still all vintage caps in amp and full Duelund crossover for the first time and really, really like it. What is it about tube rectified? Very musical. I have installed another volume pot. (broken sping) I will report back on the VSF but can already say in those first 5 hours (before) I was shocked (at what happened) at how the Jensen's took the signal in one direction away from the vintage to technical superiority but missing midrange realness. The Duelund's took the signal right back in the vintage direction to the point that I started to go back and forth to see if I could hear a difference. |
I had installed the Duelund VSF and was shocked at how much they sounded like the vintage Vishay's but better. There was a distinct change in the sound to being more "alive". The sound was very different in the midrange. The all Jensen signal became HiFi sounding, good but you knew it was not real. The maddening part was the volume pot went on the Fisher. I never had old stuff before this thread started. I became fascinated by "alive" sound. In the 5 hours before the pot went I kept thinking Steen was CLEARLY voicing caps around the vintage sound with out a doubt. I have another volume pot here so I hope to not be down to long, hopefully tomorrow. I was really enjoying those 5 hours but I am not enjoying vintage gear. It seems like there is always something wrong with this stuff! I really have no love of vintage it was just the sound. I think I could get that sound with a modern amp and Jensen/Duelund caps. I would love to install the caps in the working EL84 but there just is not room. |
Yes, those were the regular Supremes, which I considered a big improvement over the stock Auricaps. I didn't notice the high-frequency emphasis until after I heard the Duelunds in there; they had a much fuller sound, especially in the lower registers. Tonality is where the CAST caps excel most, in my opinion. Everything just sounds more real and more natural with them in the preamp. The Mundorfs gave a tiny bit more shimmer to a cymbal, but had a small amount of HF glare that the Duelunds don't have; the Duelunds are thus easier to listen to for extended periods - the Mundorfs sometimes gave me ear fatigue after extended listening; so far I have not experienced that with the Duelunds. |
I have just finished running the Supratek preamp for 4 straight days to get 100 hours break-in on the 200VAC Cu CAST caps. That was also a nice check on my other modifications: the constant current source on the output tubes, the new wiring and tube sockets, the Solen PP caps in the power supply, the bypassing of the mute switch, whether the 200VAC Duelunds can take 175VDC over long periods of time, etc. It passed the torture test with flying colors - no problems whatsoever. Now to the sound. I have to say I have never heard this preamp sound so balanced and natural, with excellent detail. The Mundorf Supremes I had been using previously sounded nice, but after hearing the Duelunds I realize that the Mundorfs over-emphasized the high frequencies at the expense of the lows and low mids. The CAST caps are wonderfully balanced, and I can hear all the music from low bass to high treble very clearly. I highly recommend the use of Duelund CAST caps in a preamp application. Since the preamp gets the full audio signal, it is critical that it amplifies and passes the signal on to the amp with as much neutrality and clarity as possible - the Duelunds do that superbly. The preamp may actually be the best budget application for Duelunds, as coupling caps are usually small values and preamp voltages are often in the range where the 200VAC "speaker" CAST caps can be safely used. |
I suspect the Jensen is only available up to 1uf maybe after that the Duelund VSF would be the way to go if you can use low volts? The Duelund is $139 and Jensen $105 at 1uf. (of course there is a voltage difference) I find the Duelund to be good value in mid to large size uf's. In small uf's the Duelund is realatively pricey. I assume this is because it likely takes no less time to make .047uf compared to 2uf? The Jensen's are at around 120 hours now. Ait the Jensen's are very musical sounding cap. Norah's "Turn Me On" the vintage makes the drums to loud they crowd the singer which I am sure is not right. The Jensen is a fuller richer sound and much deeper in the bass. The foundation of the music is much better. The vintage can not capture the mood, missing much of the bottom end. I wonder if that is why I did not really like this CD before but really do now? I have heard some people say this CD is boring. I kind of thought so before as well but do not now. In a CD like this for sure the big beefy caps (like Jensen) make a BIG difference. I really like the Jensen caps. I am really curious as to how they compare to Duelund? The Jensens are very fun to listen too. Only when one gets critical is the midrange "alive" sounding? Time to fire up the solder gun and install the Duelund. |
Ait, IIRC, Jensen copper foil paper tube style caps are only available to 1uf, so you'll have to pick up either an aluminum, copper or silver VSF for your midrange. I went with an 6.8uf CAST on my tweeter and a 60uf aluminum VSF on the mid and have no regrets other than I wish I could afford an 110uf VSF for my woofer. :) Mike |
Ait I will let you know on the Jensen's. They are for sure pretty good. They do not have a plastic sound of poly. I will be comparing them myself against the Duelund VSF the cap that seems to not get much attention anymore and I am not sure why? To me the VSF and CAST sound for sure from the same family. Yes the CAST has much less noise but tonality is very good on both. I think the WPIO inductor is wayyyyy quieter than likely any other inductor barring of course CAST. (maybe the Jensen is good I do not know) I can say I am starting to appreciate the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps more all the time. (vs vintage and now over 100+ hours) |
I'm curious to hear your opinion of the Jensens, and I may want to move to them in the midrange of my Infinity speakers to build on the tonality of the CAST in the preamp. I am getting very addicted to the fuller midrange sound of the CAST as compared to the Mundorfs I had in there previously. I'm up to ~15 hours on the CAST, and they seem to be getting better bit by bit. CAST in the speaker midranges would be out of the question, as they are 23uF caps - I'd be looking for a new wife if I bought a pair of 23uF copper CAST caps! |
